Water Sparkplug

NXUS · #**1501** (**permalink**) 10-23-2008, 06:38 AM

From what I see it looks like you are very close to have this working, very impressive.

If you don't mind I would like to present some questions and comments regarding issues presented in some of the latter posts.

Are you using fast recovery diodes, this is important especially for the bridge to have fast transient response.

If charging speed is an issue why not use a cap per spark plug with its own isolation charging diode off the bridge

Is the isolation trasformer just to keep the inverter isolated from the hi voltage section or is it being used as a common mode choke, the drawing is not clear on that. A toroidal common mode choke would greatly reduce transients from backing up to the inverter while still providing the current needs of the charging circuit.

Have you concidered using transistors or FET's to switch the plasma phase of the arc?

Would a custom sparkplug with two isolated (from the chassis) electrodes be useful in controlling the plasma arc to a higher degree?

Just throwing some ideas around. If I am way off base tell me and i will cool my jets

Aaron · #**1502** (**permalink**) 10-23-2008, 06:47 AM

NXUS,

Somewhere in this thread, I posted a zip file with patents. A few show optimum plug/igniter designs.

lapperl · #**1503** (**permalink**) 10-23-2008, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Hi lapperl, I am new to this forum so I am still figuring outy how to do things, you mentioned you had attached a file, how do I retrieve it, not sure where to look?

I am interested in seeing the data as these resistors are designed to meet the specified wattage thruout their resistance range or they would have a graded rating. If i take 10, 10 ohm 1 watt resistors and series them i have 100 ohm 1 watt resistor. If i cut it in the middle i have a 50 ohm 1 watt resistor etc. The tap functions the same way.

Thanks jstadwater and tstorey for the info

I guess it would help if I post the file.

Sorry about that,

Lapperl

Gibs · #**1504** (**permalink**) 10-23-2008, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gotoluc

That is my exact though but I don't know too much about the bunch of amps. High voltage is more appealing to me as I have found and also user Unclefester that the effect is better with HV.

What we need is the VexUs-HV powered only by a MOT fed by the AC of the alternator.

Luc

You bet Luc,

And because the output of the alternator is three phases (out of phase indeed) we cannot make direct connections between phases.
So I would connect each phase on a MOT (three MOTs total) and the secondary of the MOTs onto FWBRs followed by MW capacitors.

Then I would connect the three capacitors in series. I think that would put out not far from a thousand volts with respectable amperage.
The only mod I would do on the MOTs is to disconnect secondarys from grounds.

I hope that somebody will try it, because if it works nicely we would eliminate some components. Imagine... no more inverter (to fry

). The power source we need is already on board!

No need of any kind of regulator, resistor or the like, more RPM = more power output to charge the caps... AUTOREGULATION!

By the way, I've made an interesting observation with a setup. Here is the schematic. The only difference, instead of connecting 120 Volts AC, I charged a 2000 uF capacitor at 170 Volts and discharged it through the primary of the MOT. It exploded distilled water!

It demonstrates that the dump capacitor(s) can be charge/discharge instantly.

All the best.

Gibs

Gibs · #**1505** (**permalink**) 10-23-2008, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jstadwater

Thanks for the comments guys,

We are that much closer to attaining the desired end result, I feel.

... I have a question. I purchased a 100 watt, 100ohm slide resistor. I get a much cleaner and more robust plasma burst using it instead of the 100 watt light bulb. I moved the slider from one end to the other, the ohms measured the same, and hardly any noticeable plasma difference. If the adjuster is in the middle of it's travel, does that mean I am at 50 watts power and 100ohms resistence? Also, would more, or less watts be easier on the inverter? I still don't completely understand the whole resistence thing yet.

Thanks guys.......................................Mike

Hi Mike,

From what I understand, a 100 watts variable resistor, will always be 100 watts anywhere the slide is. If you lower the resistance by sliding it, the only thing that's going to change is that you will get theoretically about the same voltage across a lower value resistance. So if you do the maths, the resistance will dissipate more watts.
The important thing to be safe is to limit the power to about 80 % of resistance power rating.

The difference with the 100 watts light bulb is that the resistance of the filament will vary with temperature. Fully heated it must be around 125 ohms.

Best to all.

Gibs

P.S: In order to get variations, connect between one side of the variable resistor and the slide itself.

NXUS · #**1506** (**permalink**) 10-23-2008, 01:45 PM

This may be a silly question, but here goes anyways!

In order to facilitate a higher degree of combustion, ergo the plasma arc, I take it that the hotter the better, but doesn't this cause a significant toll on the sparkplug. If so would the use of exotic materials ie thoriated tungsten or platinum extend the usefull life of these plugs?

In my previous experiences with spark (plasma) gaps used to fuse optical fibers the tugsten electrodes (operating at significantly lower energy levels than this project, but the on time of my arc's could range from 0.1 to 10 sec in duration) required cleaning and resharpening on a regular basis to maintain its correct geometry. This shape produced a plasma envalope that evenly distributed heat around the fibers being joined. I think that the plasma envalope shape may not be a factor in this application but the errosion of your electrode must be significantly higher than what I experienced. Is this an issue here?

jstadwater · #**1507** (**permalink**) 10-23-2008, 03:56 PM

@ Greg,

I attached a couple pics of where I have the 1.5KE150CA diodes placed. I still have not hooked up the 1.5KE15A between the battery and the inverter yet. Seems fine on the bench without it, but when I install it in the vehicle I will put in the added protection, just in case I somehow get a voltage spike from the vehicle's charging system.

@ Everyone

I need a little help with trying to figure out this resistence thing. I am using three MW caps hooked up parallel for discharge, total capacitence is 2.5uF. I am charging them via a voltage tripler circuit, after the isolation transformer, total charge is about 450VDC. I do get a better plasma with the 100 watt 100 ohm resistor than when I was using the 100 watt light bulb. This better plasma is NOT dependent on where I have the slider set on the resistor. Until....I adjusted the slider to within a 1/2 inch of the feed end, very low resistence right? the plasma was bigger but my isolation transformer was getting "pinged". I was turning the distributor by hand, trying different slider settings. It runs powered by the inverter just fine at 4,300 rpm with the slider at halfway (50 ohms). As little as I know about this subject, the formulas for figuring these (p X e= 6.0000005 squared to the 10th power of y after you divide r by the 6th pie root of i multiplied by E=MC squared!)

factors escapes me completely. It's all Greek to me! If I turn the distributor at 4,300 rpm (factory style hookup on tach gauge), that means I am at 71.67 turns per second. 8 plugs are firing per turn, so, I am firing 573.36 times per second? Which is to say, the capacitor must be discharging once every 0.0017 seconds? WOW, It's mind boggling that it can even function normally at such a rate!

NOW, I can use the full range of the 100/100 resistor and still have no misfires on the plugs at 4,300 rpm. (I have spun it at 5,800 rpm too) If the resistor slows down the charge rate for the caps, is it the frequency of the 450 volts that allows the stability of the circuit at these rates or is it something else? Is 50 ohms of resistence a comfortable rate or does it need to be more? Sorry for all the questions, but hopefully someone can throw a few thoughts at me. Later...........................................Mi ke

xVx · #**1508** (**permalink**) 10-23-2008, 04:26 PM

Hi all.... Nooby here. o/

Firstly congratulations on such an amazing effort.

It is so nice to see people working together!

I had a question about PWM's and fitting them into the circuit to effect the frequency ranges that arrive at the plugs. Maybe at this point there is too many diversions taking place, and yet another may prove to upset things a little.

In any case. I would suggest that all the most advanced experimenters out there get their relative circuit diagrams and modifications posted ASAP.

Would be very bad if the forum or experimenters accidentally (on purpose) got erased or disappeared or hacked.

Also this serves as a gauge for others. At this moment there are several diversions taking place, with the additions of MOTs and removal of inverters in place of alternators etc..

I think some assignments need clarifying as to who is experimenting with what
Exactly, and who seems to be making best progress, before the chopping and changing occurs.

Many thanks to all those involved!

lol

PS . THE PEACE SYMBOL IS INVERTED. IT IS THE SIGN OF DEATH (in many old cultures) IN ITS PRESENT FORM.

IF IT IS TURNED UPSIDE DOWN, IT BECOMES THE TREE OF LIFE.

As all Paths associates know, psychological symbolism is all around and effects us all.

Funny that the 'Peace' symbol was always surrounded by War, Death, Hippies and hard Drugs. (the hippies need to be exterminated some how.... Just give um loads of acid, cocaine and rock music - said the head of CIA)

Peace

NXUS · #**1509** (**permalink**) 10-23-2008, 04:52 PM

TC=RC therefore using your values the time it takes to charge to 67% charge capacity is equal to 50 ohms x (2.5 x 10 power -6 F) or approximatelly 125 microseconds, or over 10 times as fast as you need at 4600 rpm. These numbers assume that the powersupply is a 0 ohm source, so actual figures may vary, I think your supply is more than sufficient. In theory you should be able to fire 8000 times a second.

Well, as I see it anyways...where are my glasses?

jstadwater · #**1510** (**permalink**) 10-23-2008, 05:12 PM

That's cool stuff NXUS,

So, IF I increased the resistence to 100 ohms instead of 50 ohms, that should cut my capability in half...........theoretically able to fire only 4,000 times per second instead of 8,000.............correct? If I were to use 100 ohms instead of 50 ohms, would that translate into a lower operating temperature for the circuit? Not that it overheats now (you can look back a page or two and see my temperatures), but less heat is always better in my book. With that theory, my circuit should still be able to function fine with 200 ohms of resistence, (2,000 cycles per second, since I would definitely stay well below 1,000 cycles during actual circuit's top required performance). That all depends on what 200 ohms of resistence would do to my circuit, if anything. Please tell me if I am on track here or not. Thanks in advance.........................................Mi ke

gmeast · #**1511** (**permalink**) 10-23-2008, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NXUS

From what I see it looks like you are very close to have this working, very impressive.

If you don't mind I would like to present some questions and comments regarding issues presented in some of the latter posts.

Are you using fast recovery diodes, this is important especially for the bridge to have fast transient response.

If charging speed is an issue why not use a cap per spark plug with its own isolation charging diode off the bridge

Is the isolation trasformer just to keep the inverter isolated from the hi voltage section or is it being used as a common mode choke, the drawing is not clear on that. A toroidal common mode choke would greatly reduce transients from backing up to the inverter while still providing the current needs of the charging circuit.

Have you concidered using transistors or FET's to switch the plasma phase of the arc?

Would a custom sparkplug with two isolated (from the chassis) electrodes be useful in controlling the plasma arc to a higher degree?

Just throwing some ideas around. If I am way off base tell me and i will cool my jets

Hi NXUS,

As far as the VexUs circuit goes, the isolation transformer is to 'release' part of the circuit so the + Cap charge can go below VDC -. IOW so the CDI Cap sharge can be relative and decoupled from DC ground until the plug fires ... it is to 'isolate' the charge potentials from the battery.

There is NO charging speed issues if folks will pay attention to the RC time constant relation between R1 and C1. Just compute 5x R1C1 to be the shortest period for the highest operational charge frequency expected. This is the control I intended when I came up with the VexUs to begin with ... some simple controllable variables.

An earlier design uses a charge Fet and a discharge Fet to create a classic CDI system with the plasma feature. That was beyond the comfort level for many ... and besides, we were all looking for a system that could be 'piggybacked' onto any engine so that the plug spark acted as the 'switch' ... no circuits, no gate drivers, no opto-couplers, etc.

I hope this answers some questions.

Peace,

Greg

gmeast · #**1512** (**permalink**) 10-23-2008, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jstadwater

@ Greg,

I attached a couple pics of where I have the 1.5KE150CA diodes placed. I still have not hooked up the 1.5KE15A between the battery and the inverter yet. Seems fine on the bench without it, but when I install it in the vehicle I will put in the added protection, just in case I somehow get a voltage spike from the vehicle's charging system.

@ Everyone

I need a little help with trying to figure out this resistence thing. I am using three MW caps hooked up parallel for discharge, total capacitence is 2.5uF. I am charging them via a voltage tripler circuit, after the isolation transformer, total charge is about 450VDC. I do get a better plasma with the 100 watt 100 ohm resistor than when I was using the 100 watt light bulb. This better plasma is NOT dependent on where I have the slider set on the resistor. Until....I adjusted the slider to within a 1/2 inch of the feed end, very low resistence right? the plasma was bigger but my isolation transformer was getting "pinged". I was turning the distributor by hand, trying different slider settings. It runs powered by the inverter just fine at 4,300 rpm with the slider at halfway (50 ohms). As little as I know about this subject, the formulas for figuring these (p X e= 6.0000005 squared to the 10th power of y after you divide r by the 6th pie root of i multiplied by E=MC squared!)

factors escapes me completely. It's all Greek to me! If I turn the distributor at 4,300 rpm (factory style hookup on tach gauge), that means I am at 71.67 turns per second. 8 plugs are firing per turn, so, I am firing 573.36 times per second? Which is to say, the capacitor must be discharging once every 0.0017 seconds? WOW, It's mind boggling that it can even function normally at such a rate!

NOW, I can use the full range of the 100/100 resistor and still have no misfires on the plugs at 4,300 rpm. (I have spun it at 5,800 rpm too) If the resistor slows down the charge rate for the caps, is it the frequency of the 450 volts that allows the stability of the circuit at these rates or is it something else? Is 50 ohms of resistence a comfortable rate or does it need to be more? Sorry for all the questions, but hopefully someone can throw a few thoughts at me. Later...........................................Mi ke

Thanks pal,

Greg

NXUS · #**1513** (**permalink**) 10-23-2008, 06:26 PM

Hi jstadwater, you hit the nail on the head, you are absolutely correct in your extrapolations

Too really see, we need to close our eyes and open our minds!

NXUS · #**1514** (**permalink**) 10-23-2008, 06:29 PM

Thanks Greg for the information, helps a lot, especially being new and trying to absorb all this. No one has touched on the plug wear issue, do I assume this isnt an issue then?

TTFN

jstadwater · #**1515** (**permalink**) 10-23-2008, 06:38 PM

I set my 100/100 resistor to full range at 100 ohms, AND jacked my tripler circuit to a quadrupler!!! I don't know how many VDC I am charging the caps because my meter only measures to 600 volts!

AND.......the inverter is STILL HAPPY at 4,300 rpm.

This plasma is getting LOUD in here! I think I want to try and "clamp" out the rest of the amperage in this circuit, like Aaron did. Who was it on here that said they did it with a MOT primary with no core? The thing I need to know is exactly where to insert it in the circuit. I'm just about ready to put this circuit into the Suburban. As playtime continues......................................... Mike

NXUS · #**1516** (**permalink**) 10-23-2008, 06:41 PM

Has anyone actually determined the ideal energy requirement for the plasma arc and what discharge profile works best, or are these part of the unknowns being determined at this time?

My brain is like a FIFO shift register and its full !!

jstadwater · #**1517** (**permalink**) 10-23-2008, 06:46 PM

@ NXUS

The lower capacitence and higher voltage = less plug wear. I am on the same set of test plugs here for about two weeks, running the circuit some amount everyday. If you have watched my vids, you have seen me spin this V-8 distributor as high as 5,800 rpm. Multiple tests at 4,300 rpm for 30 minutes+. The only thing I see at the tips is a little discoloration from time to time, probably from me spraying tap water on them over and over. I can't help it, I like to watch the water blow up! The discoloration comes right off with a few strokes of a fine wire brush. I see no visible damage on my plug ends at this juncture. Hope that helps..................................Mike

NXUS · #**1518** (**permalink**) 10-23-2008, 07:01 PM

Mike , if you are using a voltage multiplier just be aware that they are good for voltage generation but not so good if you need any amount of current. Do you notice if the arc is getting leaner as you up the voltage? You may be current starving the charging circuit, or is all working ok? Would like to take a peek at your multiplyer.

Imfamouse last words at the hadron collider..."Hey it works"..."BANG"

jstadwater · #**1519** (**permalink**) 10-23-2008, 07:23 PM

@ NXUS

I am presently using four 120uF 450V electrolytic caps and four 1N5408 1000V 3A diodes. I started out with a doubler and have, as of today, moved up to quad. Each time I have increased the voltage, I have a greatly increased effect at the plugs, today was no exception. I made my quad from a diagram in one of Jetijs's posts, here's the link Water Sparkplug

I have it hooked up as in diagram A, is B a better way?

jstadwater · #**1520** (**permalink**) 10-23-2008, 08:15 PM

Just to make sure, if I decide to play with other uF caps. If I am using four 120uF caps in my voltage quad, that = about 30uF total available output uF to the discharge cap correct? So, I should still be safe if I wanted to try a 5uF discharge cap? Also dependant on the ohms level of the resistor, right?

Mike

NXUS · #**1521** (**permalink**) 10-23-2008, 08:25 PM

Lookin good, seems like you have this well thought out.

This is the stage where we don't want to mimic the hadron engineers and hear...aww shi....BANG!

gmeast · #**1522** (**permalink**) 10-24-2008, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jstadwater

That's cool stuff NXUS,

So, IF I increased the resistence to 100 ohms instead of 50 ohms, that should cut my capability in half...........theoretically able to fire only 4,000 times per second instead of 8,000.............correct? If I were to use 100 ohms instead of 50 ohms, would that translate into a lower operating temperature for the circuit? Not that it overheats now (you can look back a page or two and see my temperatures), but less heat is always better in my book. With that theory, my circuit should still be able to function fine with 200 ohms of resistence, (2,000 cycles per second, since I would definitely stay well below 1,000 cycles during actual circuit's top required performance). That all depends on what 200 ohms of resistence would do to my circuit, if anything. Please tell me if I am on track here or not. Thanks in advance.........................................Mi ke

Hi Mike,

The the size of your CDI (dump) Cap?

Greg

gmeast · #**1523** (**permalink**) 10-24-2008, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jstadwater

Just to make sure, if I decide to play with other uF caps. If I am using four 120uF caps in my voltage quad, that = about 30uF total available output uF to the discharge cap correct? So, I should still be safe if I wanted to try a 5uF discharge cap? Also dependant on the ohms level of the resistor, right?

Mike

Hi Mike,

I'm chasing your posts. 5uf on the CDI cap and 200 ohm on the flow restrictor puts you right at a 6000 RPM for a 4-cylinder. Now this is based on a full 5 time constants for a full charge. But just 2 time constants puts you above 85% + charge. So you're fine for your 8 - cylinder at 5 and 200.

Peace,

Greg

gmeast · #**1524** (**permalink**) 10-24-2008, 02:06 AM

oops posted twice

xpskid · #**1525** (**permalink**) 10-24-2008, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron

Hi NXUS,

Gotoluc originally posted his finding on this interesting effect that is simple to reproduce. The ultimate goal and hope for this technology is to run an engine on 100% water.

Through collaborative effort, there have been quite a few developments to increase the strength of effect as well as efficiency. Several very talented experimenters here have already put this ignition system into some vehicles and some gas generators.

The ignition system has proven to increase engine speed for the same amount of fuel giving evidence that this plasma absolutely is releasing more potential.

This experimentation is an ongoing process and little by little the effect will become stronger and easier to replicate as well as being understood better. There will be gradual steps in the direction of 100% water fuel power and we're fortunate to have so much open sharing of the progress that everyone is making.

Hi Folks,

Aaron may not be to originator of the effect but he definitely kick the ball down the hill and got Luc's circuit rolling. Several have jumped onboard and continued the advancements. Greg's VexUs circuit currently is the easiest to apply to a vehicle and is still being tweaked. Having said that, it's robust enough to experiment with. Now we need to invent some sort of combustion test bed. Something where we can test the power of mixtures, the differences between gaps and frequencies, differences with a booster kick. I've lined up a high speed video camera to look at the spark, but to really make an impact we need to zero in on the right spark, frequency, and fuel source. I'm open to ideas on simply, quantitative or even qualitative combution tests.

Shoot me your ideas,

Regards,

Timm

xVx · #**1526** (**permalink**) 10-24-2008, 08:54 AM

Can anyone shed any light on possible problems with running an inverter of 240Vac?

Thanks

jstadwater · #**1527** (**permalink**) 10-24-2008, 01:40 PM

Thanks Greg,

Right now I am using a 2.5uF discharge, but thought I might play around a little more and up the dump some. Do you know if the higher resistence will affect the inverter in any way detrimentally? I ordered 4 more slide resistors yesterday of 100 watts and up to 250 ohms, so I'll have a wider range of play. Would having a battery charger hooked to the battery while I'm operating the circuit hurt anything? I got the inverter's red light once yesterday while it was just sitting there idle, low voltage I think from the battery. At least it didn't FRY!!

I am moving forward today with the Suburban 350 install.

I may not have the circuit tied up good enough to drive it up the road, but I intend to have it operational and fire up the 350 engine on plasma and see what it's reaction will be. Wish me luck, I'll post updates as I go along. Thanks again to everyone for all the help and great info provided here, be back shortly........................................... ..Mike

jstadwater · #**1528** (**permalink**) 10-24-2008, 01:48 PM

@ xVx

I can't see any problems with running a 240 inverter. Just make sure your components are rated WELL above the inverter's output capabilities, and you should be fine. Higher voltage with a smaller uF capacitor works better anyway! Less heat in the circuit, less wear on the plugs, and drops the amperage requirment way down. This is the experience I've had in my tests anyway, which circuit are you building? I am presently using a 120 inverter with a voltage quad setup at above 600VDC, the "effect" at the plug is outstanding! Using either a full wave bridge rectifier OR a voltage doubler, tripler, or quad, will change your voltage back to DC from the inverter's AC. Good luck, and happy testing.............................Mike

NXUS · #**1529** (**permalink**) 10-24-2008, 03:02 PM

Hi Mike, I didn't have an epiphany in the shower this morning but a few concerns did surface.

I checked out what the typical gap size and what breakdown voltages are typical for sparkplugs and 2mm gap= ~12Kv. The stearing diodes you are using are rated at 15kv which you would think is ok, except in a distributor based ignition system there are 2 gaps, the other is in the distributor itself. It has a gap of (I am guessing here) about 1 mm = 6kv to pop across, so now we have a total of about 18+kv potential developing before we fire. The coil itself can easily generate about 30kv before the spark is formed. The gap will clamp this voltage but for a short period the line will have the potential to exceed the reverse breakdown of the injection diodes. I think this may be the source of the transients you occasionally experience. I would suggest putting at least 2 of the ntg517 diodes in series at each plug. May be a little more expensive but you should improove the isolation and prevent breakdown effects.

Another niggly that is bothering me is that after the coil fires the arc is formed, the gap impedance drops and then the cdi circuit fires, well if the distributor is still arcing (which is probably the case since this happens real fast) there is still a path back to the coil and I wonder what effect we have on it? Might need to diode steer it also if we are causing the coil some disruption, no facts just wondering!

Sorry for my verbal diareah here, one more observation.

The transient protection devices you are using are perfect if it is the bidirectional ones, the problem is that to properly protect the circuit from common mode and differential spikes you need 3. One across like you have done but also one from each leg to the chassis (ground). We use these on almost every product we make and we have found this to be neccessary to have proper protection.

K..nuff said...

NXUS · #**1530** (**permalink**) 10-24-2008, 03:06 PM

Just a heads up to those who read my posts and cringe at my spelling or grammar mistakes. I am dislexic and writing is a real chore for me, so please bear with me and I appologize for any stress this may have caused you. As for the therapy bills you incurr as a result of reading my posts...sorry your on your own..