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  #211  
Old 07-01-2019, 03:28 AM
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BroMikey BroMikey is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
Bro,
Best check your numbers. And where did you get them anyway? Did you finally get yours built?


Just an approx size without the drive motor, just the head. Was I
close? Judging from the pictures you have posted.


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  #212  
Old 07-01-2019, 04:40 AM
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Oh those one's. yeah I have some 3000 watt generator heads
from off of those cheap craftsmen gas jobs on the floor over
here and that is their approx size. Of course the coils are only
a fraction of the length of these designs. You can't get 3000watts
for long either they are a 2000 watt head mounted on a small gasoline
engine. About the same size as a motor rated at 2000 watts is also
that big. Compact throw away junk. 3600rpm's under a load of
2000watts won't go very many hours before it pops.
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  #213  
Old 07-01-2019, 05:38 AM
alexelectric alexelectric is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragon View Post
Just out of curiosity, if the attraction of the core is offset by the repulsion of the magnet when there is no coil or load, what happens when a coil is in place producing an electrical output which would cause the core to also become repulsive as the magnet enters proximity of the coil? Wouldn't this simply make the input work harder dealing with now 2 repulsive forces?

It seems to me that the "speed up under load" occurs because the speed of the rotor, the attraction to the core and the repulsion caused by Lenz are matched or reasonably balanced.
this idea, of the accretion of the nucleus with the repulsion with a magnet, and if so, the accretion would be compensated with a coil that is activated at the right moment, with this proposal I have worked with the bedini coil, the magnet is attracted and he refuses when he goes out,
is one more way to beat the exit attraction
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  #214  
Old 07-01-2019, 06:14 PM
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Hi all, hmm, not sure what to make of this, checked the input amperage with the killiwatt meter with the magnet attraction neutralization in place and without, it seemed to make no difference, according to the meter.
Each test started at around 2.55 amps input, then dropped to 1.54 amps for each at steady state.
Any thoughts appreciated on these observations.
peace love light
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  #215  
Old 07-01-2019, 07:07 PM
bistander bistander is offline
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Suggestion

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyWatcher View Post
Hi all, hmm, not sure what to make of this, checked the input amperage with the killiwatt meter with the magnet attraction neutralization in place and without, it seemed to make no difference, according to the meter.
Each test started at around 2.55 amps input, then dropped to 1.54 amps for each at steady state.
Any thoughts appreciated on these observations.
peace love light
OK, good job. Would like to know the real power (watts) as well as current. I think to figure out the meaning of the results you need the baseline, that is current (and watts) for the rotor alone, without the the core in place and without the stationary neutralizing magnet in place.

Regards,

bi
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  #216  
Old 07-01-2019, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyWatcher View Post
Hi all, hmm, not sure what to make of this, checked the input amperage with the killiwatt meter with the magnet attraction neutralization in place and without, it seemed to make no difference, according to the meter.
Each test started at around 2.55 amps input, then dropped to 1.54 amps for each at steady state.
Any thoughts appreciated on these observations.
peace love light
How many horse motor on the drill press? How many amps is the drill
press rated to run at under full load? The reason I ask is that there can
be a place between idling and loaded where energy is used up by the
motor or wasted even if you don't use it for work.

In this case to use the drive motor input current as a measuring tool
you may need a motor that is not so large for such a tiny light disc.

As an example I have a motor connected to a wheel (rotor) and when
loaded down the amp draw drops and so does the RPM's.

Here is what you should do. Put the pulley system on the highest RPM
with the belt. Use a Variac to dial down to a slower speed of 3800rpm.
Any reduction in voltage will make the motor more sensitive to lighter
loads. Absolutely and positively, if the cores and magnets have any
cogging at all (tight gap) when you use the opposing magnets they
should be helping. The cogging must show one amp draw and a rotor
without cores shows another amp draw.

If all readings are the same the motor with it's gear train is much to
large to sense such a small amp draw change. You are running in the
65% margin where 65% of the motors full run load amp draw is
being consumed even if it is not used. This is done with motor caps.

A bigger run cap (on the side of the motor) keeps the motor partially
loaded at all time as a sort of "ON THE READY" to go under full load.

I change my cap down lower and this way you can lower the current
used at the idling state. For instance if my cap is 45uF I will change
it to 3uF and it will be sluggish and idle using much less current. If I use
a 10uF run cap (Oil filled cap) it will run normal at the same RPM as
it is engineered for but only use 20% of the full run load power during
this time.

Companies put huge caps so the motor is loaded at all times. If I
changed out my cap to a 55uf or 60uF the motor will take 80% of
the current for full load. What you want is a cap that is tailored to the
tiny rotor so you can read obvious changes on the meter.

Let's see ceiling fans have a run cap around 10uF, an old dishwasher
has a 22uF cap or pick some up for $5-$10, I see them all the time
in my work.

Drill press will be 1HP and you need 1/10th HP, caps are the best way
to lower amp draw "ON STATE" or idling loads.

Motor men here know all of this like me but say nothing, why? Because
they want you to fail, quit and just go away. They will never help anyone.

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  #217  
Old 07-02-2019, 02:30 AM
alexelectric alexelectric is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyWatcher View Post
Hi all, hmm, not sure what to make of this, checked the input amperage with the killiwatt meter with the magnet attraction neutralization in place and without, it seemed to make no difference, according to the meter.
Each test started at around 2.55 amps input, then dropped to 1.54 amps for each at steady state.
Any thoughts appreciated on these observations.
peace love light
SkyWatcher how well it continues to advance and improve in each project
the neutralization of the magnetic attraction of turion has once again been demonstrated, and as an aid to the rotor spinning engine to reduce its consumption and power, so that it does not burn, as commented turion, that after putting several cores the drag was tremendous and it burned the engines.
if it is an advance to neutralize the attraction, to obtain better generators
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  #218  
Old 07-02-2019, 03:35 AM
bistander bistander is offline
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Core, not coil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
Sky,
Look at your amp draw on the motor with NO coil in place at all. Then WITH a coil in place. If there wasnít much (or any) difference, then you wonít see any difference when you neutralize the attraction either. But put 12 coils on the rotor so you actually get some power output and THEN look at the motor amp draw. Youíre doing fine. This is all a learning process. The most important thing to remember is the truth lies on your bench. It wonít come from me or from anyone else because EVERY build is a bit different. You will find your truth if you look long enough.
Turion,

He has not put a coil on it. I think you mean "core", not "coil". The core is the iron post. The coil is the copper wire. The coil fits over the core to make the electromagnet. Right now Sky is working with just the core. That is my understanding and evident in the pictures and videos.

I do agree that a rotor only (without core or coil) test is needed as a baseline, at the same speed.

Also, can the actual air gap be measured? Between the core face and rotor magnet when aligned.

Regards,

bi
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  #219  
Old 07-02-2019, 04:15 AM
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Hi all, was taking a small break from project today, my hands and arms were sore from working on it.
As you are saying bromikey and turion, kind of figured the motor might be creating the illusion that the neutralization method is not doing anything to relieve the motor, when it probably is reducing the shaft power needed by the motor.
Will test that tomorrow sometime, without anything by the rotor, just the rotor rotating by itself and will check amp input and watts input with killwatt meter.
peace love light
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  #220  
Old 07-02-2019, 05:40 AM
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Rest up Sky and here is a drill press video. The special cap in
them stopped it from running is a 36uf. If it was a start cap
only it would not have stopped while he was running it so it is
for running as well. A smaller value than 36uf would reduce the
HP capacity. Some motors have both start and run caps.

Don't know what you have there.

Example #1




Example #2



Motor caps



Start and run caps

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  #221  
Old 07-02-2019, 07:00 AM
Quantum_well Quantum_well is offline
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Clowns

There's a couple of clowns,a double act playing off against each other.
Sky if you want to do a meaningful test you have to use a torque sensor.(2k +dollars).
A drill press has an inefficient motor with a load vs power curve.

https://youtu.be/yzrx6W3cwaY
This video shows how to do a proper job.
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  #222  
Old 07-02-2019, 09:20 AM
Quantum_well Quantum_well is offline
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Aul.

Dave,
in that video your man is achieving about
93% efficiency.
The only time speed up under load would have any significance is if your man on the video could show it on top of the 93% he's already getting.
In other words, if you can't exceed your generator's
peak efficiency, you're gaining nothing.
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  #223  
Old 07-02-2019, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quantum_well View Post
your man is achieving about

your man on the video could show it on top of the 93%
Who's man, Dave ain't got a man showing anything. The people
here are beginners.

You are afraid that this is going to go OU. Trembling in your boots
because it would show the level of blindness that still exists on the
simple statements being made here. Unless you can acknowledge
these simple ideas you can never be or have an open mind.

Quantum,
Our purpose here is to show TWO very specific things. First, that magnetic neutralization can cancel out the increased amp draw put on a motor when it turns a rotor with magnets on it and those magnets go past the iron in a generator coil core. To show that we must show the amp draw of a motor turning the rotor with NO coil (and core) in place, WITH a coil (and core) in place, and then finally with magnetic neutralization in place. Sky's choice of motor makes that more difficult for him, but he is only trying to prove this to himself.

The second thing we are trying to show is that a properly wound coil will speed up under load and NOT reduce the rpm of the motor turning the rotor or increase the amp draw of the motor turning the rotor.
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  #224  
Old 07-02-2019, 11:35 AM
bistander bistander is offline
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Terminology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
bi,
Thank you so much for the education on the difference between a coil and a core. I never would have understood the difference without your lucid and meaningful contribution. One again, nit picking is all you are able to contribute. But then, that's all I ever expect from you so I am not disappointed. As far as I remember from the generators I have built, all the coils I have made contained a core. ...
Dave
Hi Turion,

You used to differentiate between coils and cores.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
...
All three of these coils would speed up under load.
10 strands of #23 at 80 feet in length AIR CORE
10 strands of #23 at 160 feet in length AIR CORE
3 strands of #23 800 feet in length IRON CORE

When I pulled the iron core out of the last one and ran it, it did NOT speed up under load anymore.
...
Dave
I guess you just forgot. Nit pick? What's wrong with using correct terminology?

Let's not distract this episode of testing and data sharing. Please run these tests on your machine.

Regards,

bi
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  #225  
Old 07-02-2019, 04:20 PM
Quantum_well Quantum_well is offline
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A bit of fun.

Look.....krpm!

Screenshot_20190702-171454.png
Attached Images
File Type: png Screenshot_20190702-171454.png (318.3 KB, 28 views)
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  #226  
Old 07-02-2019, 04:21 PM
Quantum_well Quantum_well is offline
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A bit of fun.

Seems unbelievable, 10,000 watts @half a million rpm!
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  #227  
Old 07-02-2019, 07:37 PM
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Hi all, well there was a difference.
Killiwatt meter says:
With just the rotor = 1.54 amps, 138 watts
With core added = 1.59 amps, 144 watts
With core and magnet neutralizing = 1.59 amps, 144 watts.

Also, it is a 1/3 HP motor and the core to rotor magnet gap is 1/8".
Not sure what to make of it at the moment, will start on winding the coil now.
peace love light
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  #228  
Old 07-02-2019, 09:15 PM
bistander bistander is offline
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Kool

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyWatcher View Post
Hi all, well there was a difference.
Killiwatt meter says:
With just the rotor = 1.54 amps, 138 watts
With core added = 1.59 amps, 144 watts
With core and magnet neutralizing = 1.59 amps, 144 watts.

Also, it is a 1/3 HP motor and the core to rotor magnet gap is 1/8".
Not sure what to make of it at the moment, will start on winding the coil now.
peace love light
Thanks Sky,

Only a 6 watt increase. Not a lot. The 138 watts is likely close to the no-load power of the drill press alone. That rotor is nicely finished and smooth so as not to have much aerodynamic drag at that RPM and you have no additional bearings or friction.

Good data points. The type of test you'd want to use to evaluate core material.

Talking about just a few percent difference in data points from a single set isn't really enough to draw conclusions. Turion can comment on the air gap. But it is good to record what it is for future reference.

Regards,

bi
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  #229  
Old 07-02-2019, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyWatcher View Post
Hi all, well there was a difference.
Killiwatt meter says:
With just the rotor = 1.54 amps, 138 watts
With core added = 1.59 amps, 144 watts
With core and magnet neutralizing = 1.59 amps, 144 watts.

Also, it is a 1/3 HP motor and the core to rotor magnet gap is 1/8".
Not sure what to make of it at the moment, will start on winding the coil now.
peace love light
Hey Sky I am keeping this post. 1/3hp is good. My 1/3HP dryer motors
take 5.5amps running with a load of laundry in them. This is standard
1/3hp motor run load amps. The washers run 9.5amps and are induction
motors just like you have there and are called 1/2hp motors.

Do you see an inspection plate.

The opposing magnets puts into his rig are done with a CNC machine
are the holes are cut dead on plus all magnets are pressed in straight.

This is not as easy as you think to get the counterbalancing magnets
right on. I found if a slight angle on the opposition magnet (1 degree)
faces toward the other magnet as it approaches will slow it down.

Remember my slow moving wheel I built this winter? play with it by
changing it's angle and remember each magnet is different from the
next one slightly. In my mind I think to use a smaller dia magnet
that is LONG. This way you can SEE the angle and still get enough
flux.
Your amp draw shows the same thing as I found what too. Got work
to do on finding the right combinations of magnets and core sizes..

You are where I am.
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  #230  
Old 07-02-2019, 10:34 PM
bistander bistander is offline
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Some more data?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
... I put 3 coils on my machine this morning and only saw the amp draw go up .7 amps
...
It'd be nice to see more data on your test. But let's say it was a 24V DC motor powering your generator. Then 0.7A at 24V is 16.8W. Or 5.6 watts per core. About same as Sky's result. No idea if RPM was close, or air gap. And assuming your coils had iron cores.

You can generate data to develop a curve, say using RPM as the independent variable. And then do a family of curves for say, number of cores, or gap distance. When you have things like this plotted out it becomes much easier to see trends and make informed design decisions.

Regards,

bi
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  #231  
Old 07-03-2019, 02:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post

Tomorrow I am going to drag out the three coil machine I built and run it with a power supply. I should be able to show amp draw of the motor without the coils (and cores) in place and WITH the coils (and cores) in place as well as the rpm of the motor in both situations. If I get time, I will hook it up to a load and show the output from a single coil (and core) and the speed up under load, which affects both the rpm of the motor and the amp draw of the motor. No promises though. I have a full day tomorrow.
You sure have a lot of versions, can't wait, hurry up

I had one question bugging me. Do you remember off hand the approx
amp draw on a 24vdc scooter motor just free wheeling, nothing connected.

Is it 2 amps? or less? Did you do any builds with a 24vdc scooter motor?
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  #232  
Old 07-03-2019, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
I have only used the MY1016 which is 12 volt and the MY1020 which is 36 volt. Running the MY1020 today with just the rotor on it at 13 volts I was pulling 1.1 amps at 1800 rpm. With three coils in place it went up to 1.7-1.8. Those are the numbers from the video I took that I just watched. Donít know what the rpm was with 3 coils.
Okay thanks, the video's I did were a 24vdc my1016 running that big
10" steel wheel with 20 magnets and the table saw arbor 5/8" shaft
and bearings running off a power supply was 2 amps at 20vdc the rpm
was a little to slow.

I also got a 1.1 amp draw on my 24vdc motor at 14volts. I like these
tiny efficient motors. The dishwasher motor took 85vac at 2 amps big
difference but the rpm's were very high at over 3400 rpm's.

I was thinking of using a higher voltage scooter motor controller to bump
it up to 30vdc to get the extra rpm's.
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  #233  
Old 07-03-2019, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
Sky, I wouldn’t worry about the magnetic neutralizing effect with just one coil in place. It probably isn’t worth your time. If you eventually put together a bigger machine and you start to see your motor bogging down just because of the number of coils you have in place you will understand why and what to do about it. I put 3 coils on my machine this morning and only saw the amp draw go up .7 amps but I KNOW when I have12 coils in place it averages out to more than two amps per coil increase. I am wondering if there isn’t a curve to this like there is to motor performance???? Never thought of that before. Will have to check that out as I put my big machineback together.
It doesn't really make much sense to me to add any neutralization... The magnet and core relation has an equal amount of force entering and leaving. As it enters it adds energy to the motion, as it's leaving it removes it - a balance. Adding the neutralization magnet you have the same situation - it has an equal amount of force to overcome as it enters the magnetic field as it does to be pushed away as it leaves - in both cases the net result is zero. This would explain the results of Sky's test.

It seems overcoming the initial lock is the only problem where staggering the cores would reduce the torque required on the initial start up. Once it's up to speed and the coils are producing an output you have a different set of rules to contend with. The cogging caused by Lenz can also be reduced by phasing the coils ( single phase would cog or vibrate far more than a 3 phase coil arrangement ). For instance 4 magnets and 3 coils.

Using the monopole layout ( all south or all north facing ) you've reduced the load the rotor would see so it would appear to need less input to drive the arrangement. In reality the reduction in output is the reason it's much easier to drive the rotor. Not only because of the monopole but the reduced (open) magnetic path from the basic layout. It would probably benefit the unit to use ceramic8 magnets instead of the neo's. Neo's have an extremely powerful field but it's tight to the surface and requires close tolerances to utilize it's field to the fullest benifit or use them in a closed path where they would enhance the field in an air gap ( such as an air core axial flux alternator ). Ceramic magnets have a very large field - although much weaker - they have the ability to extend their field into the core much more evenly ( without over saturation). In quite a few circumstances the ceramics can out perform the neos - again it depends on how they're used.

It would be interesting to debate where and how the energy in excess of the original source is derived. This might have more value than numbers read from any meter.
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  #234  
Old 07-03-2019, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
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Dragon,
You are entitled to your opinion, but I have built this generator with ceramic magnets and neos and the power production from the neos is much greater. My FIRST version used ceramic, and then ceramic super poles, because I was following the work of John B. I have pictures and video of that build. Sometimes I think John sent us down one path instead of another to keep us SAFE rather than because it was the correct path. He only built toys until he built the Ferris wheel.

You are correct that the action of the magnet approaching the core and the magnet leaving the core cancel each other out. But I HAVE to believe there is a moment in time when the two are perfectly aligned, when the magnet is neither approaching nor leaving, and the attraction is GREATEST that adversely affects the performance of the motor turning the rotor. It is the only explanation for the increased amp draw of the motor when a coil is placed near the rotor. Well, maybe not the ONLY explanation, but certainly a possible one. The more coils you have, the greater the effect As each builds on the previous loss in a negative curve. It is also the only explanation for why my big machine requires an additional 24 amps to run when all the coils are in place unloaded.

By the way, if those two forces ARE canceling each other out, and that moment I spoke of does NOT exist, why would a magnet on a rotor lock up on the coil core AT ALL. It should spin right on by. But it does NOT as you know. If you spin the rotor slowly by hand you are actually GIVING it momentum, and the core attracts the magnet speeding it up, but then it hits that moment of "lock" that kills all the momentum as well as the acceleration the attraction caused. And THEN you get to deal with the fact that the core is trying to attract the magnet as it is leaving. Spend some time spinning a rotor by hand and you will see. Now with ENOUGH forward momentum (spin it hard enough) you can overcome this lock, but that required ENERGY in the form of amps to do, and the drag or lock was still there and still impacts the performance of the motor. Just because you went faster didn't make it go away. It just happened quicker.
I'm not criticizing what your attempting to do, simply clarifying the forces and their reactions as it applies to what your doing....

Most of the "lock" is caused by the separated cores. Each core/magnet wants desperately to balance all unequal forces. The magnet in one direction or the other will always move toward the core to lock it in place -restoring a natural balance. As the cores become closer together the smaller these forces become. As with a normal motor or generator the cores have small slots for wires and these separations cause a magnetizing/demagnetizing effect as it passes over each separation - small but noticeable vibration and torque as it rotates. A magnetic field (rotor) in a closed iron circle will float freely with no cog, all forces between the magnet and core are in balance. ( it will experience eddy current forces as it rotates, these of course are different forces than what cause the cog effect ).

The reason I mentioned the ceramics is because they have the ability of reaching out to more than one core, thus reducing the effect. Since neo's have such a small external field they are more prone to grabbing what is closest and holding hard because of their intensity. ( a very small distance for the action/reaction to occur ). They will produce a higher output but at what cost to the overall efficiency of the unit...
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  #235  
Old 07-03-2019, 05:28 PM
bistander bistander is offline
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Viewpoint

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Originally Posted by Turion View Post
... there is a moment in time when the two are perfectly aligned, when the magnet is neither approaching nor leaving, ...
... it hits that moment of "lock" ...
Hi Turion,

Let's call that position the sticky point. And think of it as a position. Or a location. A point in space rather than a point in time. (Please leave space time discussion for another day, thank you)

At this sticky point, there is a force, correct? That force resists efforts to move from the sticky point either the core or the magnet. Work and therefore energy is defined as force applied for a distance, or simplified, force times distance. Since this force at the sticky point is only at a point, there is zero distance associated with it. So the force at the sticky point is there but only there and represents zero energy and therefore no power to move past.

Likely not many will buy this explanation, but there it is. I would like to see more of these types of tests. That is, measurements taken at various steps in the construction process.

Thanks to dragon for chiming in.

Regards,

bi
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  #236  
Old 07-03-2019, 07:16 PM
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Hi turion, I think it is because as you add more cores, yet you still have the same rotor mass, it cannot store enough rotational energy to efficiently absorb each attraction to the cores.
This then causes an imbalance and more amp draw.
The neutralization method relieves that and helps with start up amp draw, so is a good passive method.
Though if one did not want the added complexity and cost of the magnet neutralization, we could have a small starter motor and then an appropriate sized flywheel attahced to the shaft, to absorb the needed kinetic energy, to cause the perfect cancelling of magnet to core attraction.
peace love light
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Old 07-03-2019, 08:13 PM
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BroMikey BroMikey is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
D But it does NOT as you know. If you spin the rotor slowly by hand you are actually GIVING it momentum, and the core attracts the magnet speeding it up, but then it hits that moment of "lock" that kills all the momentum as well as the acceleration the attraction caused

Exactly the right thinking, what about inertia, what about gravity, how
about momentum? You can't talk pull in and pull out = 0. These guys
are rambling, keep going Dave.

it's the same ole hat, the electrical freaks ONLY focus on charge and
the physics guys TALK about forces and each group thinks this stuff
exists in a world all buy itself when the project is submersed in all of
it, including what we can't explain and create cute little formula for.

You want TAKE TWO? Naw they don't want take two, just build it and
quite generalizing you sound helpless. Shouldn't work? And it does.
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Old 07-03-2019, 09:12 PM
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Hi turion, proves theorizing is only worth so much, the bench is where it is at, thanks turion.
peace love light
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Old 07-03-2019, 10:34 PM
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Question

Just imagine how early record players worked with different speeds for different types of records.
The applied energies upon the wax/plastic allowed an analog storage of information that could crudely be used over and over until something broke.
One speed replaced the previous until tape became King and then CD format and now USB.
The record player is still in use for a reason.
Analog is best but a backup CD is nice.

Friction from air molecules?
What mix of neo magnet and what number of strength are they?
N52 is what is left on my repair work in progress.
When the core is glued into Woodstock the magnetic push/pull can be heard vibrating through the wood.
Energy Frequency Vibration.
The magnets reach to the bottom with their strength,
this causes a more efficient power use and your circuits run cold.
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Old 07-04-2019, 02:45 AM
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Hey PotHead can you go over that again? On how you are able to
get your circuits to run cold? You say magnets do this?

I would be interested in the coil configuration and magnets.

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