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  #1  
Old 03-26-2019, 05:19 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Is reality real?

[QUOTEPhysicists Are Starting to Suspect Physical Reality Is an Illusion

Jon Christian*in*Hard Science



Master of Reality

A*provocative new column*in*Scientific American*floats the idea that what’s fundamentally real in the universe — its actual, base reality — isn’t the quarks, fields, and quantum phenomena that seem to comprise it.

Instead, according to scientist and philosopher*Bernardo Kastrup, some are starting to suspect that matter itself is an illusion — and that the only real thing is information.

Information Space

The basic idea is that the physical universe exists because we perceive it — it’s a sort of mass hallucination we use to make sense of the mathematical relationships of objects.

Make no mistake,*this is a pretty far-out idea. But, according to Kastrup, it’s gaining ground.

“To some physicists, this indicates that what we call ‘matter,’ with its solidity and concreteness — is an illusion; that only the mathematical apparatus they devise in their theories is truly real, not the*perceived world*the apparatus was created to describe in the first place,” Kastrup wrote.

READ MORE:*Physics Is Pointing Inexorably to Mind*[Scientific American]

More on reality:*Quantum Physics Experiment Suggests That Reality Isn’t Objective[/QUOTE]

Just an interesting idea which I ran across. Enjoy.

bi
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  #2  
Old 03-26-2019, 08:36 PM
bobo36us bobo36us is offline
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Dude, the biggest question in my mind every single day is, Do I actually live on a planet called Earth with 7 billion other people, or is it all in my head?!?!
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Old 03-26-2019, 08:58 PM
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ilandtan ilandtan is offline
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Physicists are so arrogant, they assume they can see all the pieces. Try to explain your smartphone to your dog, that's why the question doesn't matter... only the information matters to you.
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Old 03-26-2019, 10:12 PM
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I am convinced that reality is an invention of consciousness.
without reality, things would be pretty boring.
so at some point a consciousness figured out how to make a place to live.
reality is a pretty fancy bit of logic, a math equation so fantastic that most everyone decided to move in.
calling reality an illusion is kind of implies that none of it is really here,

if you want a good layout of how reality is likely structured (if this is what reality is), look at Wilbert smith's book The New Science

to add to that, look at what shamans say about where they have power. They say that they power they have is in the gap of what reality is and how we perceive it.

I have always seen physics as hacking reality, shamans do the same thing from the other point of view.
when they agree on something, then I tend to think they have got something worth paying attention to.
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Old 03-27-2019, 12:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
We're either in the Twilight Zone or the Matrix. Take your pick.
Same so called authority figure with all of those impressive titles that
say magic mushrooms gets you photonically illusive where we all become
one with the A.I.
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Old 03-27-2019, 03:26 AM
ricards ricards is online now
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one very good example of these quotes.

“The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.”

"Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality"

-nikola tesla
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Old 03-27-2019, 03:50 AM
Ernst Ernst is offline
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When I was younger we used to say that reality is an illusion brought about by lack of alcohol (or weed, or shrooms or ...)

On a more serious note, while exploring the possibility of an artificial consciousness (one step beyond AI), I came to this same conclusion: Our consciousness creates "reality", it has to in order to exist. Thus we can not create an artificial consciousness because it would have to merge with ours in order to create and perceive the same "reality".

Much later again I found some youtube video that more or less says the same thing approaching it from a different angle.

Then there are some more (mystical) approaches that also lead to this same conclusion.

So... I feel pretty certain that our "reality" is created by our consciousness. Now how do we use this knowledge to improve things here?


Ernst.
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Old 03-27-2019, 04:26 AM
ricards ricards is online now
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a dog has a different perception of reality, and so is the cat, and also to those who are blind.. but it doesn't mean "reality" is being created by our conciousness.. It's just that we have different perception of "Reality"..

maybe they mixed up "perception"(how) with "reality"(what)?
or maybe they fill themselves with weeds and their reality changed and came up with this theory..
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Old 03-27-2019, 04:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernst View Post
So... I feel pretty certain that our "reality" is created by our consciousness. Now how do we use this knowledge to improve things here?


Ernst.
ever been in a computer programming class ?
I watched some fascinating things happen there,
30 people are all told to write a program, and at least 25 of them write almost the identical thing.
I bet if we just think about how to build and structure a reality, we will likely figure out how ours is already made.

so, having looked at what comes of the designing reality thought experiment, one conclusion is that dream worlds are structured the same way as this one.
and potentially to take things one assumption to far,
if dream worlds are just more fluid, and our reality is made of "frozen reality", then we should be able to make a device to "melt reality", or at least do it for some small volume.
if such a device was possible, it would pretty much prove what is going on.
and the more I think about the MAGVID device and its geometry, it is all set up to melt reality (they don't use that phrase, but that is what they say it does).
my only issue so far with building it is to get enough power into the field for a proper test.

so far I have got very good at dream control methods, I can do anything I want in a dream now.
and the same methods seem to work in our reality, but they take way way more energy, so I have my personal proof. Now I just need to make it undeniable to everyone.
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Old 03-27-2019, 08:14 AM
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I think therefore I am, and because you think something different but perceive similar information in the same time and space, ergo we experience the same reality.

Take Schrodinger's cat, it may be dead or alive, but once we have committed to viewing it at the same time, we cannot have different results. That is true for two or a million viewers, or infinity viewers. That should be an axiom for reality. It's like the movie "Lucy" time validates reality, because it's unity.

My comment about explain your smartphone to your dog is this: The understanding of that phone, that information, creates a dimensional perception of reality. If you are a two dimensional entity, and a three dimensional entity views you, but you can't perceive his presence, your description may be accurate in your two dimensional experience but inaccurate holistically.

That's why physicists can't tell you what an atom or a field really is, they can only describe it. A fifth, sixth...Nth dimensional physicists may.
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Old 03-27-2019, 09:13 PM
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I think therefore I am ? For those who have slowed the thinking processes or entered the gap between thoughts, or even silenced the mind completely, when they are in those states, they don't think therefore they are not ? Just something to think about.

There are schools of Buddhism that consider the world to be a mentally projected physical hologram.

A quote from Ananda, " The world tends to exist due to polarity of the mind. " .

Not trying to make this a religious thing, Just pointing out that there are people who have thought this way for a very long time and science is
just now starting to play catch up.
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Old 03-27-2019, 11:00 PM
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I think therefore I am ? For those who have slowed the thinking processes or entered the gap between thoughts, or even silenced the mind completely, when they are in those states, they don't think therefore they are not ? Just something to think about.

There are schools of Buddhism that consider the world to be a mentally projected physical hologram.

A quote from Ananda, " The world tends to exist due to polarity of the mind. " .

Not trying to make this a religious thing, Just pointing out that there are people who have thought this way for a very long time and science is
just now starting to play catch up.
If you don't exist, does it really matter? It's funny how you transposed no mind as non existence when meditation strives to turn off the mind that resists awareness.

Which only goes to show you how much LSD some people have taken. LOL - it becomes a huge carousel of word play and comedy, like who's on first? Do you exist, yes because I think I exist, well when you don't think ---do you exist?

The truth that will be revealed is that it doesn't matter if reality doesn't exist, just don't be an A-hole. Hahahhahhhahha...
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Old 03-28-2019, 02:44 AM
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Hi all, Hi lotec, then the buddhists have the closest theory in my opinion.
I've seen buildings render with mine own eyes.
Was cruising in the car at 50mph and was looking to my left at the strip malls and buildings, etc., when a barn came quickly into view, problem is, it was rendering itself like scan lines on a computer monitor, from bottom up. Something must have caused a lag between my mental projector and the screen around us.
I've seen other occurences that reinforce this hologram theory.
peace love light

If a tree falls in the forest, does it make a noise if nobody is there to hear it, that is not the question to ask.

The question is, do the trees even exist, when one is not there to observe them.
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Old 03-28-2019, 04:01 PM
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Hi all, Hi lotec, then the buddhists have the closest theory in my opinion.
I've seen buildings render with mine own eyes.
Was cruising in the car at 50mph and was looking to my left at the strip malls and buildings, etc., when a barn came quickly into view, problem is, it was rendering itself like scan lines on a computer monitor, from bottom up. Something must have caused a lag between my mental projector and the screen around us.
I've seen other occurences that reinforce this hologram theory.
peace love light

If a tree falls in the forest, does it make a noise if nobody is there to hear it, that is not the question to ask.

The question is, do the trees even exist, when one is not there to observe them.
You have to have corroboration of the same experience in order to prove that an anomaly existed in time/space, ergo existence isn't real. You must also assure that the observers have the same perception available. Without those prerequisites, well ...every nut(please don't take that as an insult) could be right.

If you and I are in a same room at the same time with a single object at it's center. I see a dog, but you see a watermelon, you would think I was crazy or insane if I said, "dog". But what if I could alter your perception and change your view on existence? I could show you how to see the dog.

Consider the perception of the soundwave of "Laural" and "Yanny" some people hear one or the other, and few can hear both. People listening to the same soundwave, will hear different things. That doesn't imply that they are making reality happen outside of their own mind. Nor does it prove that the soundwave doesn't exist.

See Perception Matters in Existence

This is why I don't buy Existence is a reality construct theory. If you experienced any body going through death, you know it's final. Don't waste your life pondering it's illusion, live it.
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Old 03-28-2019, 05:06 PM
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Hi ilandtan, I don't need to ponder, I know.
You can have your perceptions and I will not judge you right or wrong for them, I do wish everyone else afforded the same respect to others as I do.
I wish you well on your journey.
peace love light
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Old 03-28-2019, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by SkyWatcher View Post
If a tree falls in the forest, does it make a noise if nobody is there to hear it, that is not the question to ask.

The question is, do the trees even exist, when one is not there to observe them.
that is a very human centered view.

do the trees wonder if the humans are real if they were not there to observe them ?

the trees observe themselves
so do the bacteria and the insects.
there is almost an infinite amount of observing going on here on earth.
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Old 03-28-2019, 10:54 PM
lotec lotec is offline
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Originally Posted by ilandtan View Post
If you don't exist, does it really matter?
It does to me.


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Originally Posted by ilandtan View Post
Which only goes to show you how much LSD some people have taken. LOL - it becomes a huge carousel of word play and comedy, like who's on first? Do you exist, yes because I think I exist, well when you don't think ---do you exist?
I'm not sure. As far as I can tell, thinking is just yap yap. It's necessary sometimes, but if it were to stop even for 1 minute, I think the sense of I am ness would still remain.

How much my existence depends on your thought processes, I can't say. Maybe I am you and you are me and we just forgot about it.

I can relate to most of what you're saying and agree, I am just not completely sold on the philosophy of I think therefore I am. I just think
that it is fundamentally floored.

Quote:
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The truth that will be revealed is that it doesn't matter if reality doesn't exist, just don't be an A-hole. Hahahhahhhahha...
I'm trying but it's harder than I thought.
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Old 03-28-2019, 11:09 PM
lotec lotec is offline
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Hi SkyWatcher,

I'm not an expert in Buddhism, but it seems to me to be some of the wisest stuff I've ever read.

Thanks for sharing your experiences with us. It could be a sign that your mind isn't as tightly bound as a lot of others.

In general. What about Schrodinger's cat. It must have some mind or awareness to some degree. What effect does it's own consciousness have on the experiment.
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Old 03-28-2019, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by SkyWatcher View Post
Hi ilandtan, I don't need to ponder, I know.
You can have your perceptions and I will not judge you right or wrong for them, I do wish everyone else afforded the same respect to others as I do.
I wish you well on your journey.
peace love light
My journey is a little rough brother: I got pushed out of first class cause I was dope, and I'm sitting with the 800 pound gorilla to one side of me, and the other side sits the Elephant in the room, and though I complain to the flight attendant she keeps on asking for a credit card to buy the peanuts... she just doesn't get me, but I'm in love with her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lotec View Post
It does to me.




I'm not sure. As far as I can tell, thinking is just yap yap. It's necessary sometimes, but if it were to stop even for 1 minute, I think the sense of I am ness would still remain.

How much my existence depends on your thought processes, I can't say. Maybe I am you and you are me and we just forgot about it.

I can relate to most of what you're saying and agree, I am just not completely sold on the philosophy of I think therefore I am. I just think
that it is fundamentally floored.



I'm trying but it's harder than I thought.
So out spills the barrel of existentialism monkeys.

You can't be me because I would remember, and you wouldn't want to be me, because I think you either a spectator or a player. You are either a Hero or Zero; binary determinism.

I'm probably an A-hole BTW
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Old 03-29-2019, 01:11 AM
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100lb block of steel

Drop it on your toe. There's your answer. If you've ever seen tendons and bones hanging out of your body it's a really easy question to answer.

https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/0...it-carl-sagan/
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Old 03-29-2019, 02:44 AM
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Drop it on your toe. There's your answer. If you've ever seen tendons and bones hanging out of your body it's a really easy question to answer.

https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/0...it-carl-sagan/
+1

Thanks for kit, It was a treasure.
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Old 03-29-2019, 03:32 PM
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Hi lotec, your welcome, and that is what they are, just experiences, not right or wrong, good or bad, just a journey of experience.
Yes, from what I've researched of buddhism, it has some great wisdom in its teachings.

As far as whats inside the schrodinger thought experiment, I think it depends on whether or not the entity within the box has the same capability as us, that being to affect this realm around us by mere observation and thought.
And if the cat has that ability, I think two realities or more, can coexist at the same time and space.
One reality, where the cat was smart enough not to drink the poison, while we may simultaneously perceive the cat as dead when we open the box.
The double slit experiment shows this is possible, for two humans to be in the same space and one perceive different things around them and sometimes they can be influenced to tune into the same frequency reality that we are perceiving and experiencing.
I have much experiential evidence and other second hand accounts to corroborate all of this.
peace love light
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Old 03-30-2019, 08:05 AM
lotec lotec is offline
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Sorry ilandtan
My bad. I ranted on a bit in such a way, that made it look like the statement 'I think therefore I am ' isn't a truth in and of it's self, which it very much appears to be. The problem was the assumptions I had made about it. In having bit of a go at that statement, it might have looked like I was having a go at your views, which wasn't my intention.

Thanks SkyWatcher for the explanation of Schrodinger's cat.
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Old 03-31-2019, 04:25 AM
wayne.ct wayne.ct is offline
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Reality is an LSD hallucination?

No, I don't think so.

This is how it appears to me. A lot of loose logic and self deception is on the table. One reality could be called the external reality. External reality has a lot of "inertia" and as finite human entities we can only make limited changes to that reality, the external reality.

A second reality is the internal model(s) of reality that we carry in our neural synapses and brain chemistry, etc. I call that the internal reality. The internal reality is quite different in character compared to the external reality. It is highly malleable and can be influenced by detached fake arms and hands, chemicals, and other assorted magic. In fact you can train your brain to play out your fantasies in lucid dreams. For a while I enjoyed flying without a jet pack in my dreams night after night. The landscape became monotonous and eventually I gave up the effort.

I also hold internal models of other people's models. Models of models. Such models have to be held loosely because they can change or be out and out wrong.

Most of the regulars here in this forum ... Well, I don't have to lay it out in technicolor!

An old saying goes like this: Whatever you can conceive and believe you can achieve!

Using my imagination I can conceive many fantastic things that it would be nice to create but can not because I don't really believe it is possible, but I try to stay open to the possibility.
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