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  #121  
Old 03-19-2019, 06:47 AM
bistander bistander is online now
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Simple answer

Turion,

It just seemed like an odd statement. A simple reply would suffice, like:

No, not from no-load but increased speed above rated load.

Or something to that effect.

Sorry. I didn't mean to to start anything. There was no insult in my query.

Regards,

bi
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  #122  
Old 03-19-2019, 09:58 AM
ricards ricards is offline
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what is the goal?

the discussion from you guys really is a hot one, but what exactly is the goal?.. is it not to make progress?.. and determine the truth?..

12 strands of #23 wire Wound parallel and connected in series.. 2 sets? 3 sets?.

2800+++ rpm multiplied by how many magnets on the rotor?..
you can get the frequency by those variables.

coil bobbin?.. Iron Core?..

don't like tinkering?.. and don't like turion's build?..

coil's inductance can be measured and calculated.

if you have a pre-determined rpm and a defined rotors with magnets, you can define a working frequency.

you can easily get the value of the capacitor needed for the resonant point of that coil via L C or R L C.

I really think that shouldn't be a problem to someone who have a very broad experience with motors and generators.

I do believe the Idea has been laid out.

If you really think Turion is wrong about his measurements, and if you really are sincere about this you should build it and prove him wrong.

like tesla to hertz.
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  #123  
Old 03-19-2019, 05:11 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Generator speed up under load

Hi all,

I happened across this video which I think is an excellent demonstration and explanation of generator speed up under load.

https://youtu.be/vAXQBpuLu68

Regards,

bi
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  #124  
Old 03-19-2019, 05:45 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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V_oc and I_sc

Here is a nice article about no-load (or open circuit voltage, V_oc) and short circuit current (I_sc). It is for a wind generator, 3-phase, but the Turion type generator would behave similarly.

https://www.windynation.com/jzv/inf/...ircuit-current

Regards,

bi
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  #125  
Old 03-19-2019, 07:34 PM
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Turion Turion is online now
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Video

bi,
Thatís a great video! That video showed everything you need to know except one thing.

He shows you that the coil has a resonant frequency where it puts out the MOST power. Everybody agree on that point?

Then he puts the coil under load and shows that the amp draw of the motor goes down. Do we agree on that?

The rpm of the motor goes UP. Do would we agree on that?

Can we agree that the motor amp draw going down and the rpm of the motor going up, which means the rotor turns faster, are positive things if they are the ONLY things you consider?

Because the only thing NEGATIVE he showed is that the ďmax possible output output of the coilĒ went down when it was put under load. Thatís a bad thing, right? So how do you fix that? You give the motor LESS power so the rotor slows down and you get back to the resonant frequency of the coil where it has maximum output. You get back to the ORIGINAL max output of the coil using LESS voltage and LESS amps. Now times that by 12 when you have 12 coils and you begin to see just how incredibly important this is and how difficult it can be to get everything right so that you actually see MAX output at minimum cost.
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  #126  
Old 03-19-2019, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
bi,
Thatís a great video! That video showed everything you need to know except one thing.

He shows you that the coil has a resonant frequency where it puts out the MOST power. Everybody agree on that point?

Then he puts the coil under load and shows that the amp draw of the motor goes down. Do we agree on that?

The rpm of the motor goes UP. Do would we agree on that?

Can we agree that the motor amp draw going down and the rpm of the motor going up, which means the rotor turns faster, are positive things if they are the ONLY things you consider?

Because the only thing NEGATIVE he showed is that the ďmax possible output output of the coilĒ went down when it was put under load. Thatís a bad thing, right? So how do you fix that? You give the motor LESS power so the rotor slows down and you get back to the resonant frequency of the coil where it has maximum output. You get back to the ORIGINAL max output of the coil using LESS voltage and LESS amps. Now times that by 12 when you have 12 coils and you begin to see just how incredibly important this is and how difficult it can be to get everything right so that you actually see MAX output at minimum cost.
Dave,

That makes a lot of sense. I understated now.



Jason
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  #127  
Old 03-19-2019, 08:33 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Comments inserted in blue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
bi,
Thatís a great video! That video showed everything you need to know except one thing.

Agree it is good video.

He shows you that the coil has a resonant frequency where it puts out the MOST power. Everybody agree on that point?

I'd say the highest apparent power for that load.

Then he puts the coil under load and shows that the amp draw of the motor goes down. Do we agree on that?

Yes.

The rpm of the motor goes UP. Do would we agree on that?

Yes.

Can we agree that the motor amp draw going down and the rpm of the motor going up, which means the rotor turns faster, are positive things if they are the ONLY things you consider?

No. They are what they are. Neither positive or negative in my opinion.


Because the only thing NEGATIVE he showed is that the ďmax possible output output of the coilĒ went down when it was put under load. Thatís a bad thing, right? So how do you fix that? You give the motor LESS power so the rotor slows down and you get back to the resonant frequency of the coil where it has maximum output. You get back to the ORIGINAL max output of the coil using LESS voltage and LESS amps. Now times that by 12 when you have 12 coils and you begin to see just how incredibly important this is and how difficult it can be to get everything right so that you actually see MAX output at minimum cost.

I see no negative or positive here. Just the way things are. You deal with it.

Although he does not comment on it, note the AC V & I waveforms on the scope and the phase. That, IMO, is the important take-away from the demo.
Regards,

bi ______
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  #128  
Old 03-19-2019, 08:50 PM
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No positive?

You see no benefit to a coil that produces its max output While requiring the motor to use LESS voltage and LESS amperage, and see NO BENEFIT to having 12 such coils on your generator?

I have absolutely NOTHING more to say to you EVER. Even when the proof of everything I have been saying is verified by third party people YOU FOUND, you are unwilling to see the truth. We are done.
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  #129  
Old 03-19-2019, 09:39 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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It's all about power, real power

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
You see no benefit to a coil that produces its max output While requiring the motor to use LESS voltage and LESS amperage, and see NO BENEFIT to having 12 such coils on your generator?

I have absolutely NOTHING more to say to you EVER. Even when the proof of everything I have been saying is verified by third party people YOU FOUND, you are unwilling to see the truth. We are done.
You might consider that the reduction in power to the motor could result from the lowering of real power to the load. Or in other words, making the power factor worse. That means a reduction of the ratio of real power (watts, W) to apparent power (Volt Amperes, VA).
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  #130  
Old 03-19-2019, 10:34 PM
gyula gyula is offline
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Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Hi all,

I happened across this video which I think is an excellent demonstration and explanation of generator speed up under load.

https://youtu.be/vAXQBpuLu68

Regards,

bi

Hi bi,

Unfortunately, Conrad used a steel bolt for his coil core and back then this was not taken into account. Such bolts can introduce eddy current losses and this manifests in heat while the rotor magnet spins in front of it. And this eddy loss does get reduced the moment you attach a load to the generator coil so this inherently built-in drag does get reduced and so does the earlier draw of the motor. I am not saying that the capacitor tuning has no any beneficial effect here, just that the effect of the bolt can be decisive.

The correct test in this respect would have been to replace the bolt by say a ferrite or metglas or finemet (or other low loss) core, these types have the least amount of eddy current loss, at least by 1 or 2 order of magnitude less than a bolt has. Of course, this replacement should have provided nearly the same L inductance for the coil the bolt did, to be able to make correct comparisons between the two cores.

One more notice: A suggestion made by other builders for a fair test to demonstrate the 'generator speed up under load' effect would be first to measure the unloaded power draw for the prime mover motor, i.e. no generator shaft attached.
Then attach the generator shaft to that of the motor with no load across the generator output and check the prime mover power draw again.
Then load the generator as best you think and here it is also assumed your motor RPM is chosen in advance as best as you think it should be for your setup and check power draw for the prime mover for the 3rd time.

Only then could conclusions correctly be made on the 'effect'.
I also believe all builders should follow such measuring principle for a correct evaluation of their motor-generator setups.
Notice that I do not question this effect, only wish to draw attention for a correct evaluation like mentioned above.

Gyula
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  #131  
Old 03-20-2019, 01:46 AM
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BroMikey BroMikey is online now
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You're kiddingAMEN! Your efforts are much to valuable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
You see no benefit to a coil that produces its max output While requiring the motor to use LESS voltage and LESS amperage, and see NO BENEFIT to having 12 such coils on your generator?

I have absolutely NOTHING more to say to you EVER. Even when the proof of everything I have been saying is verified by third party people YOU FOUND, you are unwilling to see the truth. We are done.
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  #132  
Old 03-20-2019, 06:29 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Fwiw

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadman View Post
Thanks for the link.

So far, the companies that manufacture soft ferrites seem unwilling to sell to individuals in small quantities.

I had looked at this Fe304 earlier and discarded it as a candidate because itís magnetite.

Maybe it deserves a closer look. Perhaps when itís mixed with a resin and cast, the particles will be electrically insulated and behave like a soft ferrite?

Itís worth a try, the cost is certainly low enough.

Thanks again
Hi Cadman,

I transported your post over to this thread for obvious reasons. I hope you see it and consider the information.

Insulating the particles in a magnetic hard ferrite can reduce Eddy currents but will not affect hysteresis loss which will be significant. A magnetically soft ferrite has much lower hysteresis, that is it is more easily magnetized and re magnetized in the opposite polarity, or even from low flux density to higher flux density, called minor loop hysteresis. Permanent Magnets are examples of magnetic hard material. It takes high energy to magnetize and demag. Silicon steel is soft magnetically and why it is used in electric machines where the flux changes amplitude or direction.

Regards,

bi
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  #133  
Old 03-20-2019, 07:04 PM
Cadman Cadman is offline
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Hello Bi,

Very true, and the reason I am looking for soft ferrite powder source or an inexpensive way to limit the hysteresis and eddy current losses in a cast part.

I know I could use transformer laminations but I do not want to be limited in the shape of the core or any other device I may try.

I tried iron PLA in my printer, and it works to a degree, but it doesn't have enough iron density at ~ 0.53 g/cm3 for my purposes.

Regards

PS. I thought the main difference between hard and soft ferrite was the electrical insulating layer around each iron particle.
If that's true then maybe resin casting Fe304 will accomplish something similar.
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Last edited by Cadman; 03-20-2019 at 07:10 PM.
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  #134  
Old 03-20-2019, 07:43 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Hard vs soft

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadman View Post
...

PS. I thought the main difference between hard and soft ferrite was the electrical insulating layer around each iron particle.
If that's true then maybe resin casting Fe304 will accomplish something similar.
No. It's the area enclosed on the BH curve. Soft = small area. Hard = large area. Has to do with molecular/crystal structures.

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  #135  
Old 03-20-2019, 08:10 PM
Cadman Cadman is offline
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Well my first thought was it wouldnít work well, but Iím open to different things. I'm not going to try to mix it and sinter it. In any case itís already ordered along with the powdered iron and it wonít be too much trouble to cast two solenoid cores for comparison. At the least it will be interesting to see the difference between a ferromagnetic and ferrimagnatic core

Still need a source for soft ferrite powder.
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  #136  
Old 03-20-2019, 08:56 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Rod

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Originally Posted by Cadman View Post
Well my first thought was it wouldnít work well, but Iím open to different things. I'm not going to try to mix it and sinter it. In any case itís already ordered along with the powdered iron and it wonít be too much trouble to cast two solenoid cores for comparison. At the least it will be interesting to see the difference between a ferromagnetic and ferrimagnatic core

Still need a source for soft ferrite powder.
How about something like this.
https://www.goldmine-elec-products.c...number=G19561A

Google for ferrite rods give big choice on dims and materials.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrite_core
Reference as to what to look for.

When I was looking into ferrifluid, homemade stuff used waste from bin under grinder sifted to small particle size. Hot iron oxidizes real fast. Never tried it myself. Found a small bottle of ferrifluid for like $5 on Amazon. No harm in trying different stuff. I think those rods would be attractive due to density.

Regards,

bi
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  #137  
Old 04-11-2019, 01:41 AM
bistander bistander is online now
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Tested - Accel Under Load

Hi to all, and hoping Turion sees this,

I am posting here as not to interfere with other folk's threads. I was watching a YouTube vid about a shoe I was shopping for and this video popped up afterward, so wtf, I watched it. I think it is well done and credit the experimenter. Have a look.

Debunked - Thane Heins, ReGenX, delayed lenz, shorted coil, acceleration effect

https://youtu.be/kfRxsC9yumQ

Regards,

bi
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