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  #91  
Old 03-17-2019, 07:35 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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1,2,3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
I mention size of rotor as a variable ONLY because it can determine how many magnets of a specific size will be able to pass the coil. So in a sense, it IS a variable.

And if you cannot accept that neutralization and speed up under load are possible, how will you possibly accept the results when I eventually show them and not accuse me of FRAUD again? 1 plus 2 equals 3. If you do not believe 1 or 2 exist, how can 3 exist?
1 = speed-up under load (as you call it)

2 = magnetic neutralization (as you call it)

3 = the issue ( your generator claim regarding input and output power)

I never disputed your statements concerning that you achieved 1 and 2. I accept that you may have done those things.

But not #3. 1 and 2 have nothing to do with 3. You may think that they do, but there is no significant influence between the generator performance and items 1 and 2, just like there is no net effect on generator performance from cogging. We've been through this many times.

Read this.
Design and Testing of a Permanent Magnet
Axial Flux Wind Power Generator

Garrison F. Price, Todd D. Batzel, Mihai Comanescu, and Bruce A. Muller
Pennsylvania State University, Altoona College

It is a axial flux generator like yours. Do they deal with 1 or 2 or cogging? Where do 1 and 2 fit into their calculations or measurements?

I've said to you numerous times I don't care about 1 and 2 or cogging. And that still goes.

bi
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  #92  
Old 03-17-2019, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
I mention size of rotor as a variable ONLY because it can determine how many magnets of a specific size will be able to pass the coil. So in a sense, it IS a variable.

Here is one of my video's showing a single coil speeding up the 10"
rotor (a 9"would be different) going from 209watt drive input down
to 166watt drive input. We will ignore the coil output power for now
and focus on this reduction. 43 watts is what I saved for producing
power out of my coil. Each time I add another coil the rotor goes
a little faster, I save drive power and gen coil output is additive.

Go figure. All of this without using magnetic cancellation. I am unable
to do dyno testing and probably don't have the best meters or scope
and I sure don't remember all of the old farts in the history books with
their respective positions/tittles/effect.

The misinterpretation and spin of these effect given by the inventor
or scientist were always used to further Morgan's business model.
Can't be done is that model, well not without their okay.

Time to ignore them all. Look here.


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  #93  
Old 03-18-2019, 01:47 AM
bistander bistander is online now
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Tires = coils, not

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
Thatís like saying you have measured the performance of a car with square tires and are asking where do ROUND tires fit into the calculations. They donít, because you have square tires on the car. But you keep on driving the car with square tires. You truly deserve it.
Strange. The authors compare rectangular to trapezoidal shaped coils. What leads you to think their work does not apply to any shape of coil?
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  #94  
Old 03-18-2019, 03:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
I know you said that was a 12 wire coil, but that bobbin doesnít appear full. Do you remember how many feet of wire you had on it? It isnít putting out the voltage I would expect, but you are running that motor on 12 volts, right? So when it drops down to between one and two amps input your watts in would be 1.5-2 amps x 12 volts or between 18-24 watts input, with an output of how many volts at how many amps?
My coil was from junk wire but it waas a great first try at 24 strand
175feet each of #29 wire. It wire is to small to get good amps out but
if you are looking for high voltage it is great. cept the wire started breaking
down cause it is only rated at 600v. I ran 800v plus thru it, didn't know
the thin wire with so many strands would run up that high, but now I do.

4200 feet total but speed up came at 8 strands on up, the more I used
the faster it will go.

I tried to tell you Bi was stubborn and unwilling to learn new tricks.
He is a closed door i think with a response like that last one. Crooked coils?
or trapezoid? Excuse me...........
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  #95  
Old 03-18-2019, 06:47 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Odd

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Originally Posted by Turion View Post
Just remember, the MORE your coil speeds up under load the LESS it produces as a generator coil. ...
Not that I care, or expect an answer from you, let alone a reasonable explanation, but the deal had always been:

Run at no-load. ( ie. Generator coil(s) open circuit, or zero coil current)

Measure speed (RPM)

Put load on generator coil(s) causing current in the coil(s)

Notice speed increase (higher RPM)

So now you say that the generator coil(s) produce less when loaded and the RPM increases. Less than zero?
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  #96  
Old 03-18-2019, 09:18 PM
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you don't get it

Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Not that I care, or expect an answer from you, let alone a reasonable explanation, but the deal had always been:

Run at no-load. ( ie. Generator coil(s) open circuit, or zero coil current)

Measure speed (RPM)

Put load on generator coil(s) causing current in the coil(s)

Notice speed increase (higher RPM)

So now you say that the generator coil(s) produce less when loaded and the RPM increases. Less than zero?

What do you mean "now" he says that - that is all he has said and he has said that many times.



No load best results and if speeding it up, will unload the motor even more but generator coil output goes down. Makes perfect sense and indicates that you have been arguing with him in the 3 battery thread but have not comprehended a word he has said - or just don't care and want to continue to make it look like what he says doesn't make sense even though you just don't get it.



Do you consider a short circuited generator coil to be a load? There is obviously current in the coil and it creates a counter opposing magnetic field - a perfect demonstration of Lenz's Law.
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  #97  
Old 03-18-2019, 09:31 PM
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In Other Words

As you add windings in series there is a point where I reached a null.
For this coil around 6 thru 8 strands did not slow down the rotor nor
did it speed up. After that as I began adding more and more strands
in series the rotor speed kept getting faster and faster and faster but the
energy I could pull from my coil got lower and lower and lower respectively.

That is what Turion means. So in my case at 3000rmp's 20 magnet rotor
4200foot coil at strand number 18 in series most of the 40 plus watts
made available by the coil was helping the mechanical action. Dropping
the number of series windings still helped mechanical to aid the rotor
action but more electrical to power things.
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  #98  
Old 03-18-2019, 09:47 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Common definitions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
What do you mean "now" he says that - that is all he has said and he has said that many times.



No load best results and if speeding it up, will unload the motor even more but generator coil output goes down. Makes perfect sense and indicates that you have been arguing with him in the 3 battery thread but have not comprehended a word he has said - or just don't care and want to continue to make it look like what he says doesn't make sense even though you just don't get it.



Do you consider a short circuited generator coil to be a load? There is obviously current in the coil and it creates a counter opposing magnetic field - a perfect demonstration of Lenz's Law.
No-load = open circuit which means zero current.

Short circuit = zero resistance connection of output terminals. Result is "short circuit" current and zero voltage.

No-load results in "no-load" voltage and zero current so is zero power output.

Short circuit results in current (usually maximum current) and zero voltage so is zero power output.

Short circuit typically is considered loaded. The load is the coil itself because there is current flowing in the coil and the coil has resistance, so IsquaredR power loss in the coil, but zero power to any external load due to the shorted terminals.

Whenever I've read about the speed up under load or watched video demonstrations, the starting condition was no-load meaning coil terminals open circuit. Then the loaded condition had a resistance (often light bulb) across the coil terminals or in some cases, the loaded condition was simply a short circuit across the coil terminals.

How am I mistaken here?

bi
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  #99  
Old 03-19-2019, 12:30 AM
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shorted generator

Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
No-load = open circuit which means zero current.

Short circuit = zero resistance connection of output terminals. Result is "short circuit" current and zero voltage.

No-load results in "no-load" voltage and zero current so is zero power output.

Short circuit results in current (usually maximum current) and zero voltage so is zero power output.

Short circuit typically is considered loaded. The load is the coil itself because there is current flowing in the coil and the coil has resistance, so IsquaredR power loss in the coil, but zero power to any external load due to the shorted terminals.

Whenever I've read about the speed up under load or watched video demonstrations, the starting condition was no-load meaning coil terminals open circuit. Then the loaded condition had a resistance (often light bulb) across the coil terminals or in some cases, the loaded condition was simply a short circuit across the coil terminals.

How am I mistaken here?

bi

Nobody said you're mistaken on this one point there but you like to wiggle around with your answers.



I'll ask something else...


What happens when you short a generator that is holding up to the laws you believe in?



A simple answer without the slippery talk is preferred.

And why does a generator do what it does when you short the output?
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  #100  
Old 03-19-2019, 01:11 AM
bistander bistander is online now
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Answers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
Nobody said you're mistaken on this one point there but you like to wiggle around with your answers.



I'll ask something else...


What happens when you short a generator that is holding up to the laws you believe in?



A simple answer without the slippery talk is preferred.

And why does a generator do what it does when you short the output?
Aaron,

In a well designed generator, shorting the output will tend to bring the machine to a screeching halt. If the prime mover is strong enough to overcome the generator's strong torque opposing rotation, the generator will blow circuit protection or burn up from overload. Shorting the generator output causes very high currents which react with the magnetic field and produce torque according to Lorentz. Depending on the particular generator design other things may occur. Armature reaction may demagnetize the field and rotation could continue with severely diminished output. In a magnetic loose generator like is often the case with machines without proper magnetic circuits (backiron and such), the armature reaction will weaken the field such that the machine will not produce excessive torque or possibly not even overheat, but rather continue to rotate and generate using the armature as its load.

This is easy to demonstrate for yourself. Most would have a PM DC 2-wire motor around the workbench. I just tried this with a MY6812 sitting in front of me. You would agree, I hope, this motor or similar can be used as a generator. So first, with it no-load (nothing connected to the terminals), twist the shaft by hand. You feel a little resistance to the twisting, but it is possible to get it up to a fairly rapid rotation. Now short circuit the terminals. Twist again. At very slow rotation, little difference is felt. But try an attempt to give it a very quick spin. You cannot rotate it very fast at all.

Regards,

bi
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  #101  
Old 03-19-2019, 02:57 AM
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My coil was from junk wire but it waas a great first try at 24 strand
175feet each of #29 wire. The wire is to small to get good amps out but
if you are looking for high voltage it is great. cept the wire started breaking
down cause it is only rated at 600v. I ran 800v plus thru it, didn't know
the thin wire with so many strands would run up that high, but now I do.

4200 feet total but speed up came at 8 strands on up, the more I used
the faster it will go.
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  #102  
Old 03-19-2019, 06:47 AM
bistander bistander is online now
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Simple answer

Turion,

It just seemed like an odd statement. A simple reply would suffice, like:

No, not from no-load but increased speed above rated load.

Or something to that effect.

Sorry. I didn't mean to to start anything. There was no insult in my query.

Regards,

bi
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  #103  
Old 03-19-2019, 09:58 AM
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what is the goal?

the discussion from you guys really is a hot one, but what exactly is the goal?.. is it not to make progress?.. and determine the truth?..

12 strands of #23 wire Wound parallel and connected in series.. 2 sets? 3 sets?.

2800+++ rpm multiplied by how many magnets on the rotor?..
you can get the frequency by those variables.

coil bobbin?.. Iron Core?..

don't like tinkering?.. and don't like turion's build?..

coil's inductance can be measured and calculated.

if you have a pre-determined rpm and a defined rotors with magnets, you can define a working frequency.

you can easily get the value of the capacitor needed for the resonant point of that coil via L C or R L C.

I really think that shouldn't be a problem to someone who have a very broad experience with motors and generators.

I do believe the Idea has been laid out.

If you really think Turion is wrong about his measurements, and if you really are sincere about this you should build it and prove him wrong.

like tesla to hertz.
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  #104  
Old 03-19-2019, 05:11 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Generator speed up under load

Hi all,

I happened across this video which I think is an excellent demonstration and explanation of generator speed up under load.

https://youtu.be/vAXQBpuLu68

Regards,

bi
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  #105  
Old 03-19-2019, 05:45 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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V_oc and I_sc

Here is a nice article about no-load (or open circuit voltage, V_oc) and short circuit current (I_sc). It is for a wind generator, 3-phase, but the Turion type generator would behave similarly.

https://www.windynation.com/jzv/inf/...ircuit-current

Regards,

bi
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  #106  
Old 03-19-2019, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
bi,
Thatís a great video! That video showed everything you need to know except one thing.

He shows you that the coil has a resonant frequency where it puts out the MOST power. Everybody agree on that point?

Then he puts the coil under load and shows that the amp draw of the motor goes down. Do we agree on that?

The rpm of the motor goes UP. Do would we agree on that?

Can we agree that the motor amp draw going down and the rpm of the motor going up, which means the rotor turns faster, are positive things if they are the ONLY things you consider?

Because the only thing NEGATIVE he showed is that the ďmax possible output output of the coilĒ went down when it was put under load. Thatís a bad thing, right? So how do you fix that? You give the motor LESS power so the rotor slows down and you get back to the resonant frequency of the coil where it has maximum output. You get back to the ORIGINAL max output of the coil using LESS voltage and LESS amps. Now times that by 12 when you have 12 coils and you begin to see just how incredibly important this is and how difficult it can be to get everything right so that you actually see MAX output at minimum cost.
Dave,

That makes a lot of sense. I understated now.



Jason
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  #107  
Old 03-19-2019, 08:33 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Comments inserted in blue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
bi,
Thatís a great video! That video showed everything you need to know except one thing.

Agree it is good video.

He shows you that the coil has a resonant frequency where it puts out the MOST power. Everybody agree on that point?

I'd say the highest apparent power for that load.

Then he puts the coil under load and shows that the amp draw of the motor goes down. Do we agree on that?

Yes.

The rpm of the motor goes UP. Do would we agree on that?

Yes.

Can we agree that the motor amp draw going down and the rpm of the motor going up, which means the rotor turns faster, are positive things if they are the ONLY things you consider?

No. They are what they are. Neither positive or negative in my opinion.


Because the only thing NEGATIVE he showed is that the ďmax possible output output of the coilĒ went down when it was put under load. Thatís a bad thing, right? So how do you fix that? You give the motor LESS power so the rotor slows down and you get back to the resonant frequency of the coil where it has maximum output. You get back to the ORIGINAL max output of the coil using LESS voltage and LESS amps. Now times that by 12 when you have 12 coils and you begin to see just how incredibly important this is and how difficult it can be to get everything right so that you actually see MAX output at minimum cost.

I see no negative or positive here. Just the way things are. You deal with it.

Although he does not comment on it, note the AC V & I waveforms on the scope and the phase. That, IMO, is the important take-away from the demo.
Regards,

bi ______
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  #108  
Old 03-19-2019, 09:39 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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It's all about power, real power

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
You see no benefit to a coil that produces its max output While requiring the motor to use LESS voltage and LESS amperage, and see NO BENEFIT to having 12 such coils on your generator?

I have absolutely NOTHING more to say to you EVER. Even when the proof of everything I have been saying is verified by third party people YOU FOUND, you are unwilling to see the truth. We are done.
You might consider that the reduction in power to the motor could result from the lowering of real power to the load. Or in other words, making the power factor worse. That means a reduction of the ratio of real power (watts, W) to apparent power (Volt Amperes, VA).
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  #109  
Old 03-19-2019, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Hi all,

I happened across this video which I think is an excellent demonstration and explanation of generator speed up under load.

https://youtu.be/vAXQBpuLu68

Regards,

bi

Hi bi,

Unfortunately, Conrad used a steel bolt for his coil core and back then this was not taken into account. Such bolts can introduce eddy current losses and this manifests in heat while the rotor magnet spins in front of it. And this eddy loss does get reduced the moment you attach a load to the generator coil so this inherently built-in drag does get reduced and so does the earlier draw of the motor. I am not saying that the capacitor tuning has no any beneficial effect here, just that the effect of the bolt can be decisive.

The correct test in this respect would have been to replace the bolt by say a ferrite or metglas or finemet (or other low loss) core, these types have the least amount of eddy current loss, at least by 1 or 2 order of magnitude less than a bolt has. Of course, this replacement should have provided nearly the same L inductance for the coil the bolt did, to be able to make correct comparisons between the two cores.

One more notice: A suggestion made by other builders for a fair test to demonstrate the 'generator speed up under load' effect would be first to measure the unloaded power draw for the prime mover motor, i.e. no generator shaft attached.
Then attach the generator shaft to that of the motor with no load across the generator output and check the prime mover power draw again.
Then load the generator as best you think and here it is also assumed your motor RPM is chosen in advance as best as you think it should be for your setup and check power draw for the prime mover for the 3rd time.

Only then could conclusions correctly be made on the 'effect'.
I also believe all builders should follow such measuring principle for a correct evaluation of their motor-generator setups.
Notice that I do not question this effect, only wish to draw attention for a correct evaluation like mentioned above.

Gyula
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  #110  
Old 03-20-2019, 06:29 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Fwiw

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Originally Posted by Cadman View Post
Thanks for the link.

So far, the companies that manufacture soft ferrites seem unwilling to sell to individuals in small quantities.

I had looked at this Fe304 earlier and discarded it as a candidate because itís magnetite.

Maybe it deserves a closer look. Perhaps when itís mixed with a resin and cast, the particles will be electrically insulated and behave like a soft ferrite?

Itís worth a try, the cost is certainly low enough.

Thanks again
Hi Cadman,

I transported your post over to this thread for obvious reasons. I hope you see it and consider the information.

Insulating the particles in a magnetic hard ferrite can reduce Eddy currents but will not affect hysteresis loss which will be significant. A magnetically soft ferrite has much lower hysteresis, that is it is more easily magnetized and re magnetized in the opposite polarity, or even from low flux density to higher flux density, called minor loop hysteresis. Permanent Magnets are examples of magnetic hard material. It takes high energy to magnetize and demag. Silicon steel is soft magnetically and why it is used in electric machines where the flux changes amplitude or direction.

Regards,

bi
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  #111  
Old 03-20-2019, 07:04 PM
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Hello Bi,

Very true, and the reason I am looking for soft ferrite powder source or an inexpensive way to limit the hysteresis and eddy current losses in a cast part.

I know I could use transformer laminations but I do not want to be limited in the shape of the core or any other device I may try.

I tried iron PLA in my printer, and it works to a degree, but it doesn't have enough iron density at ~ 0.53 g/cm3 for my purposes.

Regards

PS. I thought the main difference between hard and soft ferrite was the electrical insulating layer around each iron particle.
If that's true then maybe resin casting Fe304 will accomplish something similar.
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  #112  
Old 03-20-2019, 07:43 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Hard vs soft

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadman View Post
...

PS. I thought the main difference between hard and soft ferrite was the electrical insulating layer around each iron particle.
If that's true then maybe resin casting Fe304 will accomplish something similar.
No. It's the area enclosed on the BH curve. Soft = small area. Hard = large area. Has to do with molecular/crystal structures.

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  #113  
Old 03-20-2019, 08:10 PM
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Well my first thought was it wouldnít work well, but Iím open to different things. I'm not going to try to mix it and sinter it. In any case itís already ordered along with the powdered iron and it wonít be too much trouble to cast two solenoid cores for comparison. At the least it will be interesting to see the difference between a ferromagnetic and ferrimagnatic core

Still need a source for soft ferrite powder.
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  #114  
Old 03-20-2019, 08:56 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Rod

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Well my first thought was it wouldnít work well, but Iím open to different things. I'm not going to try to mix it and sinter it. In any case itís already ordered along with the powdered iron and it wonít be too much trouble to cast two solenoid cores for comparison. At the least it will be interesting to see the difference between a ferromagnetic and ferrimagnatic core

Still need a source for soft ferrite powder.
How about something like this.
https://www.goldmine-elec-products.c...number=G19561A

Google for ferrite rods give big choice on dims and materials.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrite_core
Reference as to what to look for.

When I was looking into ferrifluid, homemade stuff used waste from bin under grinder sifted to small particle size. Hot iron oxidizes real fast. Never tried it myself. Found a small bottle of ferrifluid for like $5 on Amazon. No harm in trying different stuff. I think those rods would be attractive due to density.

Regards,

bi
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  #115  
Old 04-11-2019, 01:41 AM
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Tested - Accel Under Load

Hi to all, and hoping Turion sees this,

I am posting here as not to interfere with other folk's threads. I was watching a YouTube vid about a shoe I was shopping for and this video popped up afterward, so wtf, I watched it. I think it is well done and credit the experimenter. Have a look.

Debunked - Thane Heins, ReGenX, delayed lenz, shorted coil, acceleration effect

https://youtu.be/kfRxsC9yumQ

Regards,

bi
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  #116  
Old 05-10-2019, 07:36 AM
Pot head Pot head is offline
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May I post?
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  #117  
Old 05-10-2019, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Hi to all, and hoping Turion sees this,

I am posting here as not to interfere with other folk's threads. I was watching a YouTube vid about a shoe I was shopping for and this video popped up afterward, so wtf, I watched it. I think it is well done and credit the experimenter. Have a look.

Debunked - Thane Heins, ReGenX, delayed lenz, shorted coil, acceleration effect

https://youtu.be/kfRxsC9yumQ

Regards,

bi
Hi all,

this is an interesting video, but probably not for the reasons you think. I can tell you exactly why he's seeing a higher input power with the open bifilar compared to the single wire, which is what I've been saying for a long time now and this is the last time I will post about it. I'm not talking theory, it's something you can verify on the bench, as I have done.

The bifilar coil, when connected in series, has a much higher capacitance than a single filar coil. This implies that the resonant frequency of the bifilar coil is much lower than that of the single filar coil. No load will slow the rotor down faster than a capacitor tuned for resonance! Don't believe me, try it on the bench, and I hope this issue will be settled once and for all.

The reason he sees the high input power is that that bifilar coil at that speed is not at, but in proximity of its resonant frequency, which on its own puts a big load on the rotor. When shorted or with a load he destroys this partial resonance, thus it behaves like the single filar coil.

Dave, I know you are probably the one with the most hands on experience with this kind of generators on this forum, and I respect that. But I repeat, a part from the resonant aspect in which one can get with hi turns bifilar coils, and see what the guy shows, the reason of the speeding up is not due to the coils capacitance. It's due to the core's internal currents, which result in a delayed response of the core towards the inducing magnet.

Do the experiment! Make two identical coils, one bifilar and one single filar. But both with the same total length of wire (and turns finally). First make sure that the unloaded (open) bifilar doesn't put more load on the rotor than the single filar one, to avoid seeing what the guy shows, due to partial resonance. Once that is cleared find the point (speed) where the bifilar doesn't put a load on the rotor when shorted. Now do the same with the single filar, it will do the same thing at the same frequency, proving that the effect is not due to the coils capacitance.

Now the last thing the guy in the video missed is when he says can't see the delay on the scope. The delay is not between voltage and current of the load, unless you use inductive or capacitive loads. But in order to see the real delayed lenz on the scope you need to put the first scope channel on an unloaded coil as a reference. The second channel goes on the loaded coil. Then you will see the delayed response with respect to the unloaded reference coil, which shows where the magnets are, while on channel two you see where the delayed response actually is in time.

regards,
Mario
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  #118  
Old 05-10-2019, 02:07 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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OK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pot head View Post
May I post?
You really don't need permission, so yes.

bi
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  #119  
Old 05-10-2019, 04:22 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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So, why bother?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario View Post
Hi all,

this is an interesting video, but probably not for the reasons you think. I can tell you exactly why he's seeing a higher input power with the open bifilar compared to the single wire, which is what I've been saying for a long time now and this is the last time I will post about it. I'm not talking theory, it's something you can verify on the bench, as I have done.

The bifilar coil, when connected in series, has a much higher capacitance than a single filar coil. This implies that the resonant frequency of the bifilar coil is much lower than that of the single filar coil. No load will slow the rotor down faster than a capacitor tuned for resonance! Don't believe me, try it on the bench, and I hope this issue will be settled once and for all.

The reason he sees the high input power is that that bifilar coil at that speed is not at, but in proximity of its resonant frequency, which on its own puts a big load on the rotor. When shorted or with a load he destroys this partial resonance, thus it behaves like the single filar coil.

Dave, I know you are probably the one with the most hands on experience with this kind of generators on this forum, and I respect that. But I repeat, a part from the resonant aspect in which one can get with hi turns bifilar coils, and see what the guy shows, the reason of the speeding up is not due to the coils capacitance. It's due to the core's internal currents, which result in a delayed response of the core towards the inducing magnet.

Do the experiment! Make two identical coils, one bifilar and one single filar. But both with the same total length of wire (and turns finally). First make sure that the unloaded (open) bifilar doesn't put more load on the rotor than the single filar one, to avoid seeing what the guy shows, due to partial resonance. Once that is cleared find the point (speed) where the bifilar doesn't put a load on the rotor when shorted. Now do the same with the single filar, it will do the same thing at the same frequency, proving that the effect is not due to the coils capacitance.

Now the last thing the guy in the video missed is when he says can't see the delay on the scope. The delay is not between voltage and current of the load, unless you use inductive or capacitive loads. But in order to see the real delayed lenz on the scope you need to put the first scope channel on an unloaded coil as a reference. The second channel goes on the loaded coil. Then you will see the delayed response with respect to the unloaded reference coil, which shows where the magnets are, while on channel two you see where the delayed response actually is in time.

regards,
Mario
Thanks for the post Mario.

I think that video, your opinions, and the bulk of evidence we've seen all support the proposition that I stated long ago. That this "speed-up under load" is inconsequential to the generator performance at load. And that it is basically a method of increasing no-load losses. Those increased no-load losses diminish as load is applied giving a false illusion of improved performance. It is obviously a case of altering coil design to make no-load operation much worse so someone can claim improvement at load. All the effort and expense put into coils that "speed-up under load" is wasted and actually counterproductive.

Even Turion recently said
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
...
2. The MORE you speed up under load the LESS your coil produces as a generator coil so the perfect coil does not speed up or slow down.
...
The whole deal is silly. Why do it? Has anybody actually shown (proven) an improvement in generator performance at load vs using conventional wound coils?

Regards,

bi
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  #120  
Old 05-10-2019, 07:13 PM
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Mario Mario is offline
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@ Bi:

I never said that the speed up under load effect or delayed lenz effect is useless. I said that I believe that the principle behind it is not due to coil capacitance, and the other thing is that one can easily get confused and think he's getting speed up under load, when in reality he was in proximity of the resonant spot of the high capacitance bifilar coil when the coil was unloaded, but still putting a load on the rotor because of the partial resonant tank effect between coil inductance and its capacitance which act against the magnets.
Then, when putting a load on the coil and destroying the resonant tank effect, he removes that brake and thinks he's getting delayed lenz effect.

Dave, I'm not saying that I don't believe your machines do what you say. The coil example you mentioned is interesting. Question, when you run the two different coils unloaded, is the motor input draw the same? If not it would be interesting to disconnect all the series connections from the wires, basically all strand open and unconnected and see if then the draw is the same.

See, maybe with many strands in series things are again different than only 2 strand in series. Yes Tesla said that the bifilar coil eliminates self induction, meaning that at the correct frequency (resonance), the capacitve reactance and the inductive reactance are equal, resulting in zero in impedance, just like in a normal tank circuit with a coil and capacitor.
With his method you don't need an external cap which at those times weren't cheap. I don't think he ever said that a coil like that would speed up a generator if mounted in one.
I said what I said because from my tests on the bench a single wire coil had the exact same performance as an identical coil, series bifilar but same overall length. They would speed up under load at the same speed. Thus my skepticism about the origin of the effect, not its effectiveness. I'm also not saying this to call you a liar, not at all. Just trying to compare notes and bench experiences.

cheers,
Mario
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