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  #1  
Old 10-03-2017, 01:54 AM
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Zero Force Motor Project

I am trying to compile good information here on our now departed
Dearest John Bedini's "ZERO FORCE MOTOR" Please help.

Thank you all for you kind regard.

BTW i heard this motor really cranks out the R's. And iron cores
regulate speed? Wow, iron inside the core.


-------------------------------------------------------------------

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-GZerEwObo


---------------------------------------------------------------------

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPUajezZUng















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  #2  
Old 10-03-2017, 06:50 AM
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air core only

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroMikey View Post
I am trying to compile good information here on our now departed
Dearest John Bedini's "ZERO FORCE MOTOR" Please help.

Thank you all for you kind regard.

BTW i heard this motor really cranks out the R's. And iron cores
regulate speed? Wow, iron inside the core.


-------------------------------------------------------------------

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-GZerEwObo


---------------------------------------------------------------------

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPUajezZUng















Ideally, NO iron in the core for the ZFM.
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  #3  
Old 10-03-2017, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
Ideally, NO iron in the core for the ZFM.
Is that like fantasizing? Ideally?

John was talking about it tearing itself apart so he put the iron in
to keep the speed down to what? 20G's? Keeps climbing.

I'm just playing around here so whats the rest of the story?
Maybe with a load on it you don't need
to regulate it down to 20,000 rpm's?

Can you imagine a 2 foot rotor at 20 G's? Better to load it. It is hard to
use a motor that is everywhere on rpm's, motors need to stay the same
I think so they can have a practical use. But the zero BEMF shows that
the motor does not waste.
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  #4  
Old 10-03-2017, 09:48 AM
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air core

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroMikey View Post
Is that like fantasizing? Ideally?

John was talking about it tearing itself apart so he put the iron in
to keep the speed down to what? 20G's? Keeps climbing.

I'm just playing around here so whats the rest of the story?
Maybe with a load on it you don't need
to regulate it down to 20,000 rpm's?

Can you imagine a 2 foot rotor at 20 G's? Better to load it. It is hard to
use a motor that is everywhere on rpm's, motors need to stay the same
I think so they can have a practical use. But the zero BEMF shows that
the motor does not waste.
If it has iron, it is not a ZFM.

The window motors also should not have iron in the cores - iron gives lower speeds more torque and air gives higher speeds less torque so everyone has to figure out what balance they want, efficiency, recovery, etc...

It is important to go to John's early school of thoughts on the air core concept. I have more early notes from John that he never disclosed publicly that I will publish at some point that goes into much of this.

The ZFM actually does have back emf by the way.
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  #5  
Old 10-04-2017, 02:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
If it has iron, it is not a ZFM.

The window motors also should not have iron in the cores - iron gives
lower speeds more torque and air gives higher speeds less torque so
everyone has to figure out what balance they want, efficiency,
recovery, etc...

It is important to go to John's early school of thoughts on the air
core concept. I have more early notes from John that he never
disclosed publicly that I will publish at some point that goes into
much of this.

The ZFM actually does have back emf by the way.
Yes I remember John doing video with those tiny air core jobs. So why
not take an SSG, (a Bedini) turn the coils sideways and remove the core?
You have the air force mtr? Or Zero IRON air Force mtr. Or let's call it zero iron force motor.

Thanks Aaron, I need those notes.



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  #6  
Old 10-05-2017, 12:16 AM
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More pictures







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  #7  
Old 10-05-2017, 12:19 AM
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Pictures of similar builds






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  #8  
Old 10-05-2017, 09:36 PM
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Bromikey,

I got some crazy ideas for this, like always I got to build, play and have fun with it... yes its interesting that its a non iron coil with little amp draw and Now only us to work it out as Johns moved on. Aaron can be of help but the best teacher is experience.

Good luck!
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  #9  
Old 10-06-2017, 01:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bodkins View Post
Bromikey,

I got some crazy ideas for this, like always I got to build, play and have fun with it... yes its interesting that its a non iron coil with little amp draw and Now only us to work it out as Johns moved on. Aaron can be of help but the best teacher is experience.

Good luck!
John and Peter built prototypes, like a toy model to show off at the
science fair. Now it is up to us to build a practical one. Like all motors
and generators you want close tolerances. No more 1/2" gaps.

What this means is that like in a real motor the gap where slip in
calculated the gap must be brought down to at least 80 thousandths
of and inch. .060 is better but .090 will get you in the game. Weak
ferrite magnets are out. You want big strong magnets. This machine
has no cogging without iron in it so the bigger the better on Gauss.

After that, I have no words to add. I hear it runs up in RPM's without
any stopping point, like days I guess. It just keep going higher till it
explodes if you let it. I am sure it will fly into pieces. John didn't want his
explode so he added iron in the core after the motor reached extreme
speeds.

It is not practical to have a motor so unstable that it runs away to
detonation so something must be done on the order of what John did.
Maybe a circuit that lowers the input to match the amount of torque
loading needed so the rpm's do not present a danger to human life.

Any motor you can't turn your back on that runs away must be refined.

Maybe some form of magnet transmission could tap in mechanically to
regulate the speed.


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  #10  
Old 10-06-2017, 01:36 AM
citfta citfta is offline
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Bro. Mikey,

I am going to try and be polite about this. But you don't know what you are talking about. Aaron has already told you that the ZFM DOES have BEMF. Any motor that has BEMF will only reach a speed where the BEMF balances with the current needed to over come friction and windage losses.

I have built two totally different versions of motors that had only air coils with no iron anywhere in the motor. Both of them will come up to speed and then stabilize. Use your head for a little bit. A magnet is passing a coil in the ZFM. A magnet passing a coil will generate a voltage in that coil. There is your BEMF that will control the speed of the motor.

Yes a Zero Force Motor will turn at a higher speed just as Aaron has already told you. But it will not run away.

You really need to build something and test it before you start telling everyone else how to do it.

Respectfully,
Carroll
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  #11  
Old 10-06-2017, 01:58 AM
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A Zero Force Motor with nice stable speed.

https://youtu.be/IHtL6lGovwM
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  #12  
Old 10-06-2017, 02:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citfta View Post
Bro. Mikey,

I am going to try and be polite about this. But you don't know what you are talking about. Aaron has already told you that the ZFM DOES have BEMF. Any motor that has BEMF will only reach a speed where the BEMF balances with the current needed to over come friction and windage losses.

I have built two totally different versions of motors that had only air coils with no iron anywhere in the motor. Both of them will come up to speed and then stabilize. Use your head for a little bit. A magnet is passing a coil in the ZFM. A magnet passing a coil will generate a voltage in that coil. There is your BEMF that will control the speed of the motor.

Yes a Zero Force Motor will turn at a higher speed just as Aaron has already told you. But it will not run away.

You really need to build something and test it before you start telling everyone else how to do it.

Respectfully,
Carroll
Hi Carroll
I was trying to draw a response, I got it didn't I? Thanks
for the video, good stuff. I am only going on hearsay at the moment
as I am over loaded building other projects. However any beginning
needs a start where information is collected.

Aaron has more notes on the subject so I would like for him to see if
is okay to release anything on John's early test. Oh yeah I got his
response also.

Thanks guys, I am getting what I asked for. I have never built this one
yet so all I have to go on is these tube video's however some typing is
good also without the real experiment in progress.

You and a few others have built this, like Aaron so you guys have it
nailed down. I am glad to hear somebody shut me down to stop me
from rambling that makes good sense.

Yes I am going to use my head now and agree with you that the RPM's
will stabilize due to BEMF. This one and others are toy motors. What about
a real motor? I am asking only. What kind of RPM's are we looking for?

I think John B. stated 10,000 rpm's was possible.

So we have a tiny bit of BEMF that will eventually slow down a
real motor. You have to close the gaps and use strong magnets.

I am not sure about what you were saying about the coils? 4 coils
is better than 2 coils? Is that the generator or are you talking about
the coils on the ZFM?
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  #13  
Old 10-06-2017, 02:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citfta View Post
A Zero Force Motor with nice stable speed.

https://youtu.be/IHtL6lGovwM
And I quote John Bedini in minute 1:30 he says QUOTE

"THERE REALLY IS NO BEMF ASSOCIATED WITH IT"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPUajezZUng

Here is my point, if it has BEMF and John says there is none then
where do I stand on my assumptions? The reason i bring it up is because
others have also stated that there is no BEMF so if there is I need to
know because multifilar coils should be used if that is the case.

Anyone care to explain what John meant?
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Old 10-06-2017, 04:01 AM
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ZFM motor thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by citfta View Post
A Zero Force Motor with nice stable speed.

https://youtu.be/IHtL6lGovwM
Awesome - glad to see a ZFM build - come share here if you're willing: Zero Force Motor Replication Project that is where most of the ZFM action is at.
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Old 10-06-2017, 04:09 AM
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Long way to go

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroMikey View Post
Hi Carroll
I was trying to draw a response, I got it didn't I? Thanks
for the video, good stuff. I am only going on hearsay at the moment
as I am over loaded building other projects. However any beginning
needs a start where information is collected.

Aaron has more notes on the subject so I would like for him to see if
is okay to release anything on John's early test. Oh yeah I got his
response also.

Thanks guys, I am getting what I asked for. I have never built this one
yet so all I have to go on is these tube video's however some typing is
good also without the real experiment in progress.

You and a few others have built this, like Aaron so you guys have it
nailed down. I am glad to hear somebody shut me down to stop me
from rambling that makes good sense.

Yes I am going to use my head now and agree with you that the RPM's
will stabilize due to BEMF. This one and others are toy motors. What about
a real motor? I am asking only. What kind of RPM's are we looking for?

I think John B. stated 10,000 rpm's was possible.

So we have a tiny bit of BEMF that will eventually slow down a
real motor. You have to close the gaps and use strong magnets.

I am not sure about what you were saying about the coils? 4 coils
is better than 2 coils? Is that the generator or are you talking about
the coils on the ZFM?
As Cifta said, the ZFM will not go into runaway mode. Also, you can simply vary the input. Yaro has demonstrated 12, 24, & 36 volt inputs from batteries and each has its own top speed.

Peter's and Yaro's each has been at over 13,000 rpm I believe.

Real motor - Yaro hooked his to a water pump to do real mechanical work so it is a real motor that does real work.

The ZFM is in its infancy - there is a long way to go.

2 pole vs 4 pole, etc... even the 2 pole still needs to be explored as it acts a bit different than 4 pole when you look at John's old lab notes.

Peter made the first 4 pole version. He has coils covering 90 degrees of the rotation - each coil is 90 degrees that is. Perhaps 60 or 120 is better - all those variables need to be tested to see the optimum. Aluminum vs Iron rotor, etc.
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Last edited by Aaron; 10-06-2017 at 04:20 AM.
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  #16  
Old 10-06-2017, 04:19 AM
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back emf

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroMikey View Post
And I quote John Bedini in minute 1:30 he says QUOTE

"THERE REALLY IS NO BEMF ASSOCIATED WITH IT"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPUajezZUng

Here is my point, if it has BEMF and John says there is none then
where do I stand on my assumptions? The reason i bring it up is because
others have also stated that there is no BEMF so if there is I need to
know because multifilar coils should be used if that is the case.

Anyone care to explain what John meant?
The reality is that the ZFM was thought to have reduced back emf and it does but is not completely free of it. John knew it was less than a normal motor.

If you pulled the magnets further from the coils, you would have less.

If you have coils that have a strong enough field to drive the rotor but the field of the magnet is not strong enough to cut the windings, then you will have a more optimum situation. Paul Babcock's motor has similarities to the ZFM.
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  #17  
Old 10-06-2017, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
As Cifta said, the ZFM will not go into runaway mode. Also, you can simply vary the input. Yaro has demonstrated 12, 24, & 36 volt inputs from batteries and each has its own top speed.

Peter's and Yaro's each has been at over 13,000 rpm I believe.

Real motor - Yaro hooked his to a water pump to do real mechanical work so it is a real motor that does real work.

The ZFM is in its infancy - there is a long way to go.

2 pole vs 4 pole, etc... even the 2 pole still needs to be explored as it acts a bit different than 4 pole when you look at John's old lab notes.

Peter made the first 4 pole version. He has coils covering 90 degrees of the rotation - each coil is 90 degrees that is. Perhaps 60 or 120 is better - all those variables need to be tested to see the optimum. Aluminum vs Iron rotor, etc.
Thanks Aaron that makes good sense, also let me remind everyone if
I may. John Bedini split the positive on his molopoles and just about
every motor he built he did that. When you run a ZFM between the
positives of one run battery and one charge battery it does not act
the same way as when you connect it up to a wall adapter or single
source.

Also it is my thought that John said that BEMF was for all practical
purposes none existent, that is the way I think he looked at it and
why he expressed it that way for those who might want to build.

Most people associate statements like ("Zero BEMF) with infinite or
limitless energy and is a great come on. Very exciting times we live in.

The zero force motor runs on high voltages and almost nil on miliamps.
I think someone should wind a bifilar, tribifilar of multifilar ZFM and run
it between the positives for extra fun.
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Old 10-08-2017, 12:34 PM
yaro1776 yaro1776 is offline
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ZFM Explorations

Hello to all,

Great to see the blossoming interest in the ZFM on this thread and the beginning of the replications.

Aaron has done a good job in outlining the basics of the motor and some of its performance characteristics. The ZFM has some very interesting aspects to it and it will race to over 13,000 RPM with a relatively low amp draw. The amp draw will remain relatively constant as the input voltage is increased from 12v to 48v - note it will run at 60v.

As the input voltage is increased the available torque also increases as does the maximum RPM. The amp draw and RPM can be primarily controlled with the Dwell (power to coil time) and the Advance (Firing point).

The perceived runaway aspect tends to happen at maximum dwell and advance, where the ZFM appears to be running in a stable mode at high RPM. Inexplicably the RPM will suddenly take off and increase 2,000 RPM while the amp draw remains stable. Any variance to the advance (say 35 degrees) during this time has a very minor impact on the speed and amp draw. The ZFM appears to be surfing the internal magnetic field that has been created - at least that is my speculation. Where the surge of energy comes from to cause this has not been determined.

The ZFM does exhibit BEMF - clearly depicted in the screen shots contained in the ZFM conference video.

There are still many parameters that have not been fully explored and the potential of this motor remains untapped to date. Closing with a cautionary note that operating at these high speeds does require a very careful and robust design to contain the Neo's. Be Safe!

Yaro
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Old 10-08-2017, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BroMikey View Post
John and Peter built prototypes, like a toy model to show off at the
science fair. Now it is up to us to build a practical one. Like all motors
and generators you want close tolerances. No more 1/2" gaps.

What this means is that like in a real motor the gap where slip in
calculated the gap must be brought down to at least 80 thousandths
of and inch. .060 is better but .090 will get you in the game. Weak
ferrite magnets are out. You want big strong magnets. This machine
has no cogging without iron in it so the bigger the better on Gauss.

After that, I have no words to add. I hear it runs up in RPM's without
any stopping point, like days I guess. It just keep going higher till it
explodes if you let it. I am sure it will fly into pieces. John didn't want his
explode so he added iron in the core after the motor reached extreme
speeds.

It is not practical to have a motor so unstable that it runs away to
detonation so something must be done on the order of what John did.
Maybe a circuit that lowers the input to match the amount of torque
loading needed so the rpm's do not present a danger to human life.

Any motor you can't turn your back on that runs away must be refined.

Maybe some form of magnet transmission could tap in mechanically to
regulate the speed.


I cant write anything of this at the moment, with no zfm on a desk all i do is watch other and get a feel for the understanding....

Yaro is the man here to listen to and i recommend the presentation to anyone interested in building ZFM....

I feel, for my part, the iron shaft may be a problem for me to get built , but i still think a small motor maybe my way into this.

I like the video one of (R.I.P) Johns (Demo 1) of the coil horizontal and all three pole north magnet and the almost zero amp draw as he put a metal tube in the centre of the coil.

too me that look like fun to play with....

Be and Enjoy
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Old 10-08-2017, 08:39 PM
citfta citfta is offline
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Hello all,

Aaron asked me to share some info about my air-cored motor on the original thread about the Zero Force Motor. There are a couple of reasons why I am going to share here instead. I did not order the book or watch the videos about John's Zero Force Motor. So I really can't compare what I have done with what has already been done. I came about this design because I was looking for a motor/generator design that would not have the drag from the cores being attracted to the magnets. I didn't even know if I could make a motor that would run without cores but made a simple one and it did run. So I decided to pursue it some more until I got to the point where I am now. I still have a lot more things to try and explore but I am willing to share what I have done so far.

I have attached a drawing and pictures to help you understand what I have done. In the first drawing you will see the relationship between my magnets on the rotor and the coils. You will notice the sides of the coils are aligned with the center of the magnets. The magnets are alternating in polarity. Using hall sensors and a circuit I designed the one winding of each coil is pulsed when the magnet is right over the side of a coil.

The coils are trifilar with two 30 gauge wires and one 24 gauge wire. I made the coils this way because I wanted to make this a generator as well as a motor.

After the first coil is pulsed the rotor will move 45 degrees and another winding in the coils will be pulsed with the opposite polarity to again give the rotor a kick. The third winding is picking up the inductive kickback of the collapsing magnetic fields as the transistors are turning off and also picking up the impulses from the magnet passes.

At the time I made the video I only had two coils mounted in the machine. I have now added two more and have room to mount 4 more on the opposite side of the rotor when I get time to wind some more coils.

If you look at the schematic you will see I have a slightly strange circuit. During the on time established by the hall sensors I also am adding pulses to the base of the on transistor. This was to make the motor side more efficient and to add some more inductive collapses for the power winding to pick up.

Also when you look at the schematic you will see I did not use bipolar switching. I am only using two transistors and have the windings of my coils connected so that by pulsing one and then the other winding I am actually reversing the polarity of the coil every 45 degrees. Using this method allows me to add recovery diodes at the collectors of the transistor like the SSG for additional collection of the energy from the collapsing magnetic field. Those diodes are not shown on the schematic.

The last attachment is a scope shot of the signal on the power winding. You can clearly see the AC signal from the passing magnets and the pulses from the high speed pulses being applied to the base of the transistor. You can see from the scope shot my timing wheel had slipped slightly causing my pulses to be just a little late from when they should have been. My timing wheel is adjustable for experimental purposes. That is something I have not really done any exploring into yet. I have just been running it with the pulses centered on the peaks of the magnet passes.

There so much to be learned from this type of motor. I have the coils mounted with hot glue because the stress on them is so low I felt it was safe to do that and it makes it easy to change things any time I want to. The rotor is made from some very high quality plywood so I feel it is safe for the speeds I am running at. I don't push it for high speed. With an input of about 24 volts or so it will run about 3000 rpm and only draw about 150 milliamps. With only 4 coils and with only recovery from the power winding I am seeing an efficiency of about 25 %. Nothing really to brag about. I have not made an kind of measurements of the torque of the motor. I do believe when I get the other 4 coils mounted I will have enough torque to turn a small load and still recover most of the energy being used to power the motor.

Carroll
Attached Images
File Type: jpg coils and rotor.jpg (118.5 KB, 37 views)
File Type: png Aircore Gen.png (15.6 KB, 38 views)
File Type: png Snapshot 1 (7-28-2017 7-21 PM).png (151.8 KB, 29 views)
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Last edited by citfta; 10-08-2017 at 08:43 PM.
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  #21  
Old 10-08-2017, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaro1776 View Post
Hello to all,

Great to see the blossoming interest in the ZFM on this thread and the beginning of the replications.

Aaron has done a good job in outlining the basics of the motor and some of its performance characteristics. The ZFM has some very interesting aspects to it and it will race to over 13,000 RPM with a relatively low amp draw. The amp draw will remain relatively constant as the input voltage is increased from 12v to 48v - note it will run at 60v.

As the input voltage is increased the available torque also increases as does the maximum RPM. The amp draw and RPM can be primarily controlled with the Dwell (power to coil time) and the Advance (Firing point).

The perceived runaway aspect tends to happen at maximum dwell and advance, where the ZFM appears to be running in a stable mode at high RPM. Inexplicably the RPM will suddenly take off and increase 2,000 RPM while the amp draw remains stable. Any variance to the advance (say 35 degrees) during this time has a very minor impact on the speed and amp draw. The ZFM appears to be surfing the internal magnetic field that has been created - at least that is my speculation. Where the surge of energy comes from to cause this has not been determined.

The ZFM does exhibit BEMF - clearly depicted in the screen shots contained in the ZFM conference video.

There are still many parameters that have not been fully explored and the potential of this motor remains untapped to date. Closing with a cautionary note that operating at these high speeds does require a very careful and robust design to contain the Neo's. Be Safe!

Yaro
Quote:
Originally Posted by citfta View Post
Hello all,

Aaron asked me to share some info about my air-cored motor on the original thread about the Zero Force Motor. There are a couple of reasons why I am going to share here instead. I did not order the book or watch the videos about John's Zero Force Motor. So I really can't compare what I have done with what has already been done. I came about this design because I was looking for a motor/generator design that would not have the drag from the cores being attracted to the magnets. I didn't even know if I could make a motor that would run without cores but made a simple one and it did run. So I decided to pursue it some more until I got to the point where I am now. I still have a lot more things to try and explore but I am willing to share what I have done so far.

I have attached a drawing and pictures to help you understand what I have done. In the first drawing you will see the relationship between my magnets on the rotor and the coils. You will notice the sides of the coils are aligned with the center of the magnets. The magnets are alternating in polarity. Using hall sensors and a circuit I designed the one winding of each coil is pulsed when the magnet is right over the side of a coil.

The coils are trifilar with two 30 gauge wires and one 24 gauge wire. I made the coils this way because I wanted to make this a generator as well as a motor.

After the first coil is pulsed the rotor will move 45 degrees and another winding in the coils will be pulsed with the opposite polarity to again give the rotor a kick. The third winding is picking up the inductive kickback of the collapsing magnetic fields as the transistors are turning off and also picking up the impulses from the magnet passes.

At the time I made the video I only had two coils mounted in the machine. I have now added two more and have room to mount 4 more on the opposite side of the rotor when I get time to wind some more coils.

If you look at the schematic you will see I have a slightly strange circuit. During the on time established by the hall sensors I also am adding pulses to the base of the on transistor. This was to make the motor side more efficient and to add some more inductive collapses for the power winding to pick up.

Also when you look at the schematic you will see I did not use bipolar switching. I am only using two transistors and have the windings of my coils connected so that by pulsing one and then the other winding I am actually reversing the polarity of the coil every 45 degrees. Using this method allows me to add recovery diodes at the collectors of the transistor like the SSG for additional collection of the energy from the collapsing magnetic field. Those diodes are not shown on the schematic.

The last attachment is a scope shot of the signal on the power winding. You can clearly see the AC signal from the passing magnets and the pulses from the high speed pulses being applied to the base of the transistor. You can see from the scope shot my timing wheel had slipped slightly causing my pulses to be just a little late from when they should have been. My timing wheel is adjustable for experimental purposes. That is something I have not really done any exploring into yet. I have just been running it with the pulses centered on the peaks of the magnet passes.

There so much to be learned from this type of motor. I have the coils mounted with hot glue because the stress on them is so low I felt it was safe to do that and it makes it easy to change things any time I want to. The rotor is made from some very high quality plywood so I feel it is safe for the speeds I am running at. I don't push it for high speed. With an input of about 24 volts or so it will run about 3000 rpm and only draw about 150 milliamps. With only 4 coils and with only recovery from the power winding I am seeing an efficiency of about 25 %. Nothing really to brag about. I have not made an kind of measurements of the torque of the motor. I do believe when I get the other 4 coils mounted I will have enough torque to turn a small load and still recover most of the energy being used to power the motor.

Carroll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bodkins View Post
I cant write anything of this at the moment, with no zfm on a desk all i do is watch other and get a feel for the understanding....

Yaro is the man here to listen to and i recommend the presentation to anyone interested in building ZFM....

I feel, for my part, the iron shaft may be a problem for me to get built , but i still think a small motor maybe my way into this.

I like the video one of (R.I.P) Johns (Demo 1) of the coil horizontal and all three pole north magnet and the almost zero amp draw as he put a metal tube in the centre of the coil.

too me that look like fun to play with....

Be and Enjoy
You guys are the greatest men on the planet, tough, smart and never
give up. Thank you for your advanced input.

Be ready for me when I come back with questions after I read this a
couple of days.
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Old 10-09-2017, 08:20 PM
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seaad seaad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citfta View Post
Hello all,
Aaron asked me to share some info about my air-cored motor

it will run about 3000 rpm and only draw about 150 milliamps. With only 4 coils and with only recovery from the power winding I am seeing an efficiency of about 25 %.
Carroll
Hello Citfta , all

The topic of this thread is "Zero force motor PROJECT" so i assume that alternating magnet polarity -n-s-n-s- on the rotor is ok to suggest in this thread? But maybe Bedini begins to rotate in his tomb?
I advise you to use BOTH sides of the magnets AND the coils simultaneously. "I am seeing an efficiency of about 25 %"
And only one single coil winding on each coil (bobbin) so you can utilize that physical coil space to a maximum and make the Henrys (magnetic force) as big as possible.
I'm working (planning) now on a bit similar motor as yours. Simulations in LTSpice and some initial bench testing make me belive that a motor at 24V only should consume /correction/ 3-5 mA free running without load or regeneration.

Will anybody be upset if I also want to add some coil core material?

Regards
Arne
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Last edited by seaad; 10-11-2017 at 07:16 PM.
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Old 10-09-2017, 09:15 PM
citfta citfta is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seaad View Post
Hello Citfta , all

The topic of this thread is "Zero force motor PROJECT" so i assume that alternating magnet polarity -n-s-n-s- on the rotor is ok to suggest in this thread? But maybe Bedini begins to rotate in his tomb?
I advise you to use BOTH sides of the magnets AND the coils simultaneously. "I am seeing an efficiency of about 25 %"
And only one single coil winding on each coil (bobbin) so you can utilize that physical coil space to a maximum and make the Henrys (magnetic force) as big as possible.
I'm working (planning) now on a bit similar motor as yours. Simulations in LTSpice and some initial bench testing make me belive that a motor at 24V only should consume 1-2 mA free running without load or regeneration.

Will anybody be upset if I also want to add some coil core material?

Regards
Arne
Well if you reread my posts you will see that I am using NSNS configuration on my rotor. I also posted that I did intend to add more coils on the other side of the rotor. I designed that rotor so that I could use both ends of the magnets. The 150 milliamps is with the generating winding supplying some small amount of power to a bridge rectifier and cap and then to a resistor to measure the efficiency. With no load on the generating winding the current draw will drop to about 80 milliamps. I would be very surprised to see you get the current down to 1 or 2 milliamps. I don't think LTSpice is considering the friction losses in the bearings or the windage losses from turning the rotor.

Respectfully,
Carroll
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Old 10-09-2017, 09:38 PM
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BroMikey BroMikey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seaad View Post
But maybe Bedini begins to rotate in his tomb?


Will anybody be upset if I also want to add some coil core material?

Regards
Arne
No problem guys John lived to see us have this open door to experiment.
He is resting now from his labors. I look forward to any and all tests.

Do it up right or any which way you like. That way we will know
which way not to go as well as the right direction. Don-ch-ya-think?
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Old 10-09-2017, 10:39 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is online now
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Henrys and magnetic force

@seaad,

I like the way you equated Henrys of inductance with (magnetic force). This comparison has caused controversy in the past.


"Henrys (magnetic force) as big as possible".
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Old 10-10-2017, 01:03 AM
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seaad seaad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citfta View Post
Well if you reread my posts you will see that I am using NSNS configuration on my rotor. I also posted that I did intend to add more coils on the other side of the rotor. I designed that rotor so that I could use both ends of the magnets. The 150 milliamps is with the generating winding supplying some small amount of power to a bridge rectifier and cap and then to a resistor to measure the efficiency. With no load on the generating winding the current draw will drop to about 80 milliamps. I would be very surprised to see you get the current down to 1 or 2 milliamps. I don't think LTSpice is considering the friction losses in the bearings or the windage losses from turning the rotor.

Respectfully,
Carroll
Hi Carrol
First I just wanted to know If it was allowed to dicuss NSNS configuration and cores here. I don't want a "serious builders" situation.

First issue solved. I right now saw Bro M:s reply. Thanks BroMikey!

Second. I'm going to utilize ALL sides of my magnets and coil ends.

Congrats Carrol; to your good circuit. Two Switch transistors and the two Transformer coupled Coils reduces the power consumption to drive the coil ( motor magnetic impulser unit) to about the same low level as I have, with my used principle and my single winding, without distorting the signal. ( Still about square) I took my coil values and used that x2 in your two coils and made a simulation.
BUT, but with your principle you have to have two windings on the same bobbin. To make them fit there we have to reduce the Cu-wire diameter. ( More Ohms in both coils)
That reduces the Amp-turns with reduces the magnetic power as a result.
Compared to a single wire coil principle, here we have to increase the battery voltage.

If your input pulse signals A and B (not the iterrupting F.G. chopping signal. Not simulated yet) is let say: Cycle time=6ms ,OnA=2ms OffA=4ms, OnB=2ms OffB=4ms and signal B is delayed 3ms
THEN the OUTput will be a 3ms+3ms (50%/50%) zero and 180 degr. square signal. (With my coil values) Do you want that??
BUT with a shorter On-time (A and B) than 2ms the output signals will be a mess, corrupt and stocastic.

And you are right about windage losses and such. I know nothing!

I come to think of one important thing: Your coils are NOT TRANSFORMER COUPLED. Air coils. Uhuuuu Now output signals will be a mess, corrupt and stocastic
AGAIN!!



Regards
Arne
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Last edited by seaad; 10-10-2017 at 10:02 AM.
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  #27  
Old 10-10-2017, 01:29 AM
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seaad seaad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BroMikey View Post
I look forward to any and all tests.

Do it up right or any which way you like.
Thanks BroMikey!

Regards
Arne
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Old 10-10-2017, 04:09 AM
bistander bistander is online now
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Why

Quote:
Originally Posted by seaad View Post
... make the Henrys (magnetic force) as big as possible.
...
The Henry is a unit of inductance.

Quote:
The magnetic force component of the Lorentz force manifests itself as the force that acts on a current-carrying wire in a magnetic field. In that context, it is also called the Laplace force.
Magnetic force is not "Henrys". It is not measured in "Henrys". It is not inductance.

The quote I used above is from https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_force
It is a good and lengthy article on magnetic and electromagnetic force. I do not see any mention of inductance or Henry.

And a puzzlement to me is why anyone would want a zero force motor. After all, a motor converts electric power to mechanical power. With no force there is no mechanical power. So what use is a ZFM?

Regards,

bi
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Old 10-10-2017, 08:34 AM
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zfm

Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
And a puzzlement to me is why anyone would want a zero force motor. After all, a motor converts electric power to mechanical power. With no force there is no mechanical power. So what use is a ZFM?
Do your research so you can see what John's definition is as applied to the motor and not your own.
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  #30  
Old 10-10-2017, 08:40 AM
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BroMikey BroMikey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
The Henry is a unit of inductance.



Magnetic force is not "Henrys". It is not measured in "Henrys". It is not inductance.

The quote I used above is from https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_force
It is a good and lengthy article on magnetic and electromagnetic force. I do not see any mention of inductance or Henry.

And a puzzlement to me is why anyone would want a zero force motor. After all, a motor converts electric power to mechanical power. With no force there is no mechanical power. So what use is a ZFM?

Regards,

bi
I been asking that question and am still trying to wrap my head around
it. It runs on hv and very tiny amounts of current, I know what you are
going to say. Wait a minute and listen for awhile.

It runs on high voltage and high RPM's on tiny amounts of current. It
displays very small amounts of BEMF according to John B. and from what
I hear if you run it between positives at 36v which means 48v in series
going to a 3rd 12v battery leaving 36v this motor produces it's
own regenerative (SUUL) acceleration for some unknown reason.

WHEn this occurs the tiny amounts of current drop even more to maintain
it. Other off the shelf motors do not manifest this desired action that
Tesla pointed out in his coil patent in the 1800's. Well he talked about
coils that produced energy as if they were not even there concerning
drag of any kind.
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