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  #61  
Old 10-14-2017, 11:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
I am not aware of any material which can reflect magnetic lines of force or B-field. Also, the iron shielding cup shown in your diagram will shunt the magnet reducing or possibly eliminating the external field, ie render the magnet ineffective.

It might look more like this. Notice the shielding cups or sleeves along
the bottom of the magnets used to reflect stray fields back toward
the work or shall I say this method will intensify the field on the opposite
end much like the magnet on your speakers.Yes it works.

Here is an advanced builder. His name is Thane Heins and even tho this
is not a photo of a ZFM the rotor design could be used. it also helps to
hold the magnets more securely raising the level of safety.





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  #62  
Old 10-15-2017, 09:24 AM
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zero force and misc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
John was the one that told us that originally in the Bedini Monopole 2 group when he first showed that video of the motor with the iron pipe. Maybe 05, 06 time frame. Those groups have long since been shut down. But I remember it well because that was one of the few times I ever got straight answer out of him. He said there is no force exerted on the magnet, the magnet rides the flux lines on the side of the coil. He talked about the switching a little bit, switching direction at the center, then he never talked about the thing again until he started showing the printed models.

Matt
You're right about that, it rides the flux lines and the no force in this context is that it is not pushed or pulled in opposition or attraction at the end of the core like the SG or other common arrangements. But, it also may follow the "true" magnetic field.

There is a difference between the lines of flux and the true magnetic field of the coils and they both have different relationships with the coil and different interactions with the permanent magnet on the rotor.

One does not interact with the Bloch Wall and one does, hence the clover leaf pattern John has drawn for years.

There are supposed to be possible gains with this motor and that isn't supposed to come from lines of flux that do not interact with the Bloch Wall.

I also think it is important to study the original 2 pole version with a single north and single south. Their relationship with the coils is different from the 2 coil 4 pole version. To be more analogous to the original 2 pole version, it would have to be 4 poles with 4 coils. Then, we would be comparing apples and oranges.
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  #63  
Old 10-15-2017, 09:25 AM
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zfm

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroMikey View Post

It might look more like this. Notice the shielding cups or sleeves along
the bottom of the magnets used to reflect stray fields back toward
the work or shall I say this method will intensify the field on the opposite
end much like the magnet on your speakers.Yes it works.

Here is an advanced builder. His name is Thane Heins and even tho this
is not a photo of a ZFM the rotor design could be used. it also helps to
hold the magnets more securely raising the level of safety.





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Thane Heins was shown to have measurement error by someone I know who is beyond competent in analyzing his machines, but Thane just won't accept the results.

I don't believe there is anything in his work that can contribute to the ZFM project.
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  #64  
Old 10-15-2017, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
Thane Heins was shown to have measurement error by someone I know who is beyond competent in analyzing his machines, but Thane just won't accept the results.

I don't believe there is anything in his work that can contribute to the ZFM project.
Hi Aaron
It does seem to be the case that Thane excepts no outside input
on his designs probably due to the constant battering over the years.
Not by you or other good designers have done those things but others
have, messengers who have an intent. The gov spends lots of money
hiring people sent to drive a wedge so continuity is lost. One way or
another division will stop projects from moving forward.

These are the alphabetized agencies those lists are long. Thane is a
wonderful soul, just like you are Aaron and Matthew, Dave, Peter, John.

The experiment is all we have to follow, this is all Thane has to go on
and his personality is gentle. He can't take it so to speak. Not tough at
all. However Thane is a great man who is threading on thin ice as he
looks for funding.



Another group to follow are the wind turbine builders, they use laminates
and practical designs that will hold up in the rain or high humidity.

I have tried cutting block board, I have a piece that after a couple of
years has turned to dust. Hardwood is fine at SG speeds, not at 10,000
RPM's especially if the rotor is 1" in dia. The stress at these speeds could
be life threatening so these mechanical designs are more about safety
rather than promoting one man's personal agenda.

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Last edited by BroMikey; 10-18-2017 at 07:30 PM.
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  #65  
Old 10-15-2017, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
I have published this before, but here is a crappy drawing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyoxymethylene
I use Delrin

Holes on both sides of rotor, opposite each other. Magnets attracted to each other through thin layer of plastic. Also epoxied in place.

The BEST drawing, the magnets are also epoxied in place, but if you think THOSE magnets are going to come out, even when you want them to, you are WRONG!!
Oh yeah i almost forgot that design, gonna post a dia when I get time.
That's so i don't keep forgetting.
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  #66  
Old 10-15-2017, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
I have published this before, but here is a crappy drawing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyoxymethylene
I use Delrin

Holes on both sides of rotor, opposite each other. Magnets attracted to each other through thin layer of plastic. Also epoxied in place.

The BEST drawing, the magnets are also epoxied in place, but if you think THOSE magnets are going to come out, even when you want them to, you are WRONG!!
is that how your ZFM is now? No shielding?


http://www.ebay.com/itm/DELRIN-PLASTIC-SHEET-1-2-THICK-12-X-12-/332155273889?hash=item4d55ff42a1:g:zBYAAOSw4CFYyV~ q:sc:USPSPriority!66006!US!-1





http://www.ebay.com/itm/Delrin-Sheet-White-750-Thick-x-12-Width-x-12-Length-1532-/121716367649?hash=item1c56dc6121:g:QKAAAOSw-3FZE~UE



http://www.ebay.com/itm/Delrin-Acetal-Plastic-Sheet-1-x-12-x-12-White-Color-/142529600781?hash=item212f6d1d0d:g:HRkAAOSwG-1WxUxL



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Last edited by BroMikey; 10-15-2017 at 11:11 PM.
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  #67  
Old 10-16-2017, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
I don't have shielding on mine. But that's me. I m seeing what I need to see out of the machine without shielding which just weights down the rotors.

EDIT:
I use Delrin 9/16 thick. Magnets are 1/4 thick. Space between magnets is 1/32 thick. This allows epoxy 1/64" of space between magnets and rotor without the surface of the magnet extending beyond the surface of the rotor. It also means that 1/64" of epoxy + 1/32" space + 1/64" epoxy totals 1/16 of solid mass between magnets once epoxy has dried.
Sweet rotor design guy, thank you Turion-Man

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  #68  
Old 10-18-2017, 01:50 AM
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https://hackaday.com/2016/03/03/materials-to-know-acetal-and-delrin/

What is a good solvent to use as epoxy on this stuff? Most plastics
can not be glued.



Delrin

Delrin, Acetal, and its many trade names is a material properly known
as Polyoxymethylene or POM. It is one of the strongest plastics and is
a good go-to material when you want the best properties of plastic,
and donít need the full strength of a metal part. It was originally
formulated to compete with Zinc and Aluminum castings after all.

I wonít go too deep into the numbers behind POM. If you need the
Youngís Modulus, you probably donít need this guide. This is intended
to be more of a guide to its general properties. When youíre looking
for something to fit an application it is usually easier to shift through
the surface properties to select a few candidates, and then break
the calculator out later to make sure it will work if youíre uncertain
about the factor of safety.

The most popular property of POM is its ease of machining. While
doing this research every single site I came across referred to it as
the most machinable plastic. Thatís about as objective as subjective
praise can get. It doesnít tend to grab tools like, for example, HDPE.
It also chips nicely unlike UHMW and Nylon. Some plastics, like UHMW,
have the unfortunate tendency to render the dials on a mill or
lathe meaningless as the plastic deflects away from the tool.
POM does not do this as much. Of course these other plastics
have their strengths as well, but if any plastic will do, and youíre
machining, POM is a very good choice.

POM also laser cuts extremely well. We have a two part series all a
bout it. Part 1: Drawbacks of Lased Delrin and How to Slip Around
them. Part 2: How to Build Anything With Delrin and A Laser Cutter.

POM in many ways behaves like brass than compared to other plastics.
Itís naturally stronger and stiffer than other plastics. It has low
thermal expansion. It doesnít absorb a lot of water, and therefore
stays dimensionally stable better than Nylon. POM is also very
hard and abrasion resistant. It doesnít suffer from as much creep;
which is the tendency for a material to stay bent if left under a
stress for too long. You could make a plastic spring or compliant
mechanism and expect a useful service life, as long as the mechanism
rests in the sprung state.
Surprisingly, Delrin != Acetal

I once got in an argument with someone about whether or not
Delrin and Acetal were the same material. I thought they were
the same, I ended up being quite wrong. Acetal refers to the
pattern and shape of the molecule that makes up its building blocks.
Delrin, is an acetal homopolymer unless otherwise specified by Dupont.
When you buy acetal without a trade name attached, you are
usually purchasing acetal copolymer. These are the two most
common names for POM, but there are other formulations out
there under different branding and it will take some research to
figure out what you are buying.

There is a mechanical difference between homopolymer (Delrin)
and copolymer (Acetal). Delrin has a higher melting point, is a little s
tronger, and has a few other slightly more initially desirable
properties. The homopolymer is less uniform throughout its cross
section. In thicker sheets, blocks, or rods of homopolymer, there
will be little bubbles causing a less dense area which formed as
part of the manufacturing process in the center. If you are machining
a small hole through the center of an extruded rod of POM, the
copolymer may be a better choice in this case. The name brand
is usually more expensive. The copolymer is a little more elastic
as well, but if youíre pushing the plastic hard enough to see this
difference it may not be a good fit. It is possible that the
copolymer will have better stability over a longer service life.
Unless you are doing fancy stuff, just buy the cheapest, over
engineer it, and it probably wonít matter which one you choose.

Impervious to Common Solvents

POM is resistant to chemicals. It is generally unaffected by solvents,
fuels, etc. I couldnít find a common lubricant that would damage it.
Hereís a really big and immensely useful list of things that will damage
it (and some other plastics). For example, chlorine is pretty bad for it.
It has stabilizers to help, but it isnít impervious. So if youíre testing
your underwater ROV in a heavily chlorinated pool; your POM propeller
may suffer a failure after enough exposure. It has an excellent
resistance to beer, for what thatís worth.

One huge advantage to POM is its high lubricity. POM is often
mistakenly said to have self-lubricating properties. However, it
simply has a high abrasion resistance and a very low coefficient
of friction, making it appear to be self lubricating. POM can benefit
from correctly chosen lubricant. Properly lubricating a load bearing
POM part will lengthen its service life. A dry lubricant like Moly or
Graphite will work. Also a Teflon based grease such as Super Lube
is a good choice. You can also purchase it with exotic fillers like
Teflon or Moly, in which case it will be self-lubricating for a
much higher price.

My preferred place for purchasing POM is auction sites like eBay.
The prices are usually better if youíre willing to give up on
guaranteed accurate tolerances and formulations. However, if
I want to be sure about getting brand name plastic or a specific
formulation Iíll buy from a distributor to be sure of getting the
material Iím asking for.

Keep Away from Flame

One big downside to POM is flammability. POM is not-self
extinguishing. So once it starts burning it will continue to do so
until oxygen is taken away from it. The flame can be colorless and
with little smoke. A simple Class A extinguisher will put it out.
If your application could get uncomfortably on fire, choose a self
extinguishing plastic like PVC or ABS with a UL rated flame
retardant for your application range mixed in
(making it self-extinguishing). Even though POM is a good
dielectric, it is probably not a good choice for a lot of sparky
electrical applications.

Some glues claim to stick to acetal.

Another downside is a result of its upside. Due to its solvent
resistance and high lubricity you can pretty much give up on
adhering anything to it. Glue, Paint, Stickers, etc. All of them will
have a hard time sticking to POM. There are some glues that claim
to adhere to POM, such as Zap Poly-Zap. Even with these special
glues it is recommended to sand both surfaces before gluing and
to expect a weak bond. A silicone based adhesive has also been
mentioned to have similar success to specially formulated CA.
If you break your POM part or want to do a two part assembly i
tís just not possible

If you need POM in a color other than black and natural, it has
been reported to dye well. Just like with nylon, any regular
technique for dying should work and give a good, if subdued,
color. However, if you are building something that is rated for
an engineering application itís good to call the material supplier
to see if they have a color solution. Some dyes may have
adverse effects over time on the performance of the plastic.

Iíve used POM in projects and always found it to be a dream to
work with. Itís one of my favorite materials. When Iím in doubt
and need to try out an idea I like to reach for it, and itís cheap
enough to keep a small stock. If you have useful information, an
error to point out, or anecdotes to add please do so. Iím excited
to learn more.
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Last edited by BroMikey; 10-18-2017 at 01:55 AM.
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  #69  
Old 10-18-2017, 02:03 AM
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http://www.permabond.com/materials_bonded/how-to-bond-acetal/

How to Bond Acetal? Achieve success bonding Acetal

What is Acetal (POM Ė Polyoxymethylene)? Acetal is a popular
thermoplastic, therefore its use spans a number of industries.
Generally, acetal has a high surface slip lubricity which can make i
t difficult to bond acetal. This plastic is fairly low cost and has
good structural properties, consequently, it is often used instead
of metal. POM is very high strength, with good impact resistance,
low rate of water absorption, good chemical resistance (even
against solvents), high dielectric strength and good flame resistance.
How to Bond Acetal?

Permabond polyolefin primer used in conjunction with cyanoacrylate
adhesives offer the best strength.

Due to the high-temperature resistance of acetal, epoxies such as
Permabond ES5748 can be considered. To bond acetal, cure the
ES5748 at the low-temperature end of the cure schedule.

Another option is 2 part polyurethanes. Two-component polyurethanes
offer some degree of adhesion to acetal so they may be considered
for limited stress joints or potting.

To determine the best specific adhesive to bond acetal in your
application, please provide some detail to our technical team and
we will get back to you with a recommendation.

Or the following charts might help choose the best type of product.
Does your application require solvent or temperature resistance?
solvent-acetal

Acetal Bonding Ė solvent resistance
temp-resist-acetal
Acetal Bonding Ė Temperature Resistance

Note: Products can withstand higher temperatures for brief periods
providing the joint is not unduly stressed.
Tips for surface preparation:

1. Grit blast, wire wool, red Scotch-Brite or grit paper or emery cloth
can be used to help provide better adhesive keying.
2. Solvent wipe with Isopropanol or Permabond Cleaner A.
3. Permabond POP Primer in a combination with Permabond
cyanoacrylate adhesive have shown the best bonding results on
acetal.
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  #70  
Old 10-22-2017, 12:35 AM
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Some what like a Zero Force Motor setup, the idea is not new.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfgzfl69Q20


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  #71  
Old 10-22-2017, 09:35 PM
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Zfm

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroMikey View Post
Some what like a Zero Force Motor setup, the idea is not new.
That geometry is more similar to Babcock's motor.

John was building his first ZFMs in the 1970's - it most certainly wasn't new to John - nor did anyone say it was new.
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  #72  
Old 10-22-2017, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
That geometry is more similar to Babcock's motor.

John was building his first ZFMs in the 1970's - it most certainly wasn't new to John - nor did anyone say it was new.
Okay, I am just coming around to understand part. The thing that
sticks out is that the coils bypass the right hand rule? The coils are
not 90 degrees to the magnet. That is why they all look the same
to me. Some used air cores and some not.

If there are any other significant differences, help me out.
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