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  #1  
Old 09-24-2017, 04:06 AM
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Charge Pump Circuit

Hi all, i didn't want to clutter the don smith thread anymore.
This is inspired by dragon.
I'm working on a mechanical 3 way switch for automatic operation, here it is so far.

And circuit from dragon.


peace love light
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  #2  
Old 09-25-2017, 03:13 AM
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Theory of Operation

Hi Skywatcher,

great thinking this topic really deserves its own thread.

Let me just add the Theory of Operation as I think its best to have them laid out in a statement. along with picture of units and schematics.

reattaching the PDF courtesy of dragon.
Charge pump adv short version.pdf

basically its like cycling the charge,
Raising the Potential by connecting in series to charge one capacitor and connecting in parallel (C2 & C3) while the load is being powered in between C2 & C3 capacitor.

in a way it uses the same concept of using the same energy to produce work and to charge something else (3 BGS) might be a capacitor version of it. in a way it is not (location of load). based from experiments its best to power the load between capacitor rather than at the path of the switch.

It is unique in a sense that no closed circuit exist for continuous current to flow (always blocked by capacitor), and load is being powered by natural balancing of the capacitor,

currently C1 is best to be replaced with a battery (Constant Voltage Source) as if it were a capacitor the circuit would produce lesser output at few switches until it stops.

currently suggested capacitor's capacitance to be 1F or Higher Voltage capacitor configuration that can transfer around 20Joules worth of energy per switch in order to see some good output (toy capacitor's can only power small bulbs and LED's).
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Last edited by ricards; 09-25-2017 at 04:23 AM. Reason: correction
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  #3  
Old 09-26-2017, 02:48 AM
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Hi ricards, thanks for replying
and adding the pdf and other helpful information.

I got around to adding the copper wire pieces, which are made of 18awg. magnet wire with the coating scraped off and this forms the mechanical, switchable contacts.
I soldered the ends, to make one solid piece of copper.
Another identical copper wire contact area, is on the opposite side.

Also, used zip ties to hold the copper pieces in place and the heat that was created by soldering, also caused the copper wires to embed nicely into the plastic material.
Here is pic of mechanical switch progress.
peace love light

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Old 09-26-2017, 02:25 PM
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Nice job SkyWatcher, looking forward to seeing what your 1.5 farad caps are capable of. Most of my low voltage testing was done with the 1F caps. I'll be spending more time on "pre winter" tasks so my involvement will be spotty for the next few weeks.

Below is a picture of a 500 watt heating element being driven with 130 watts. It's still just under the 1200*F temp, still operating in the IR band which produces good heat. My current set up will only drive 3 of these.

The reason I'm focused on the IR band is because you can achieve higher BTU output with less energy. The coils are placed inside a quartz tube so the air flowing around them cannot cool the coils allowing them to emit infrared radiation continuously. When the coils are glowing orange they produce a radiant electromagnetic frequency that interacts with a thermally conductive work piece such as copper. This produces eddy currents in the metal absorber - just like inductive heating but at ultra high frequencies. With open air coils you only see the heat produced by the electrical current flowing through them... we want to use the radiant energy produced in the IR band instead of the electric used to produce it.

For those interested, I've included a nichrome chart which shows how much current is needed to produce a certain temp for various size wires. For instance a 12 volt system you might choose the 28 ga wire at 2.8 amps to achieve a 1200*F coil. The wire is 4 ohms per foot so 1 foot of wire would be sufficient, this would require a 33 watt input to achieve a 1200*F temp on the wire.

Have fun...
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File Type: pdf Nichrome 80 wire.pdf (125.4 KB, 37 views)
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Last edited by dragon; 09-26-2017 at 02:30 PM.
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  #5  
Old 09-26-2017, 05:50 PM
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Howdy. What does 'EWL' stand for in the diagram?
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Old 09-27-2017, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by level View Post
Howdy. What does 'EWL' stand for in the diagram?
Hi level,

I think 'EWL' does not mean anything significant, we only use resistive loads so far, passive resistors, bulbs, or heating elements, you can try this out real easy by manual switching, so far results are promising..
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  #7  
Old 09-27-2017, 07:17 PM
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Thanks for the clarification ricards.
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Old 09-29-2017, 03:36 AM
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Hi all, Hi dragon, thanks, I also look forward to any further work you might be sharing.
Thanks for sharing the detailed information dragon.

I did read previously about the added efficiency of the infrared bulbs and i wondered why they used the copper sheeting in some of the heaters I've seen, now i know why.
So is that a homemade bulb you made?
It looks like you coiled nichrome wire and placed it inside a quartz glass tube.

If I'm comprehending what you are saying, by encapsulating it like this, it prevents the transfer of heat to the greater surrounding air and causes the coil to become hotter and glow and emit the proper IR frequencies, to interact efficiently with copper material.

I finished the mechanical switch, though i have not made any tests yet, will do this tomorrow sometime, hopefully.
peace love light

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Old 09-29-2017, 12:52 PM
Wistiti Wistiti is online now
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Nice job Sky!
I will also give it a try. I have 2x 1,5f audio cap ordered.
Thank you Dragon for the circuit!
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Last edited by Wistiti; 09-29-2017 at 12:57 PM. Reason: Thank's to Dragon
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  #10  
Old 09-29-2017, 09:25 PM
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Hi wistiti, thanks and it's nice to hear from you.
I just tested the setup with the mechanical switch.

I had it wired wrong and one of the wires insulation started to barbecue.
Checked the wiring and realized what was wrong.

It seems to work well and i have 20 watts worth of ceramic power resistors, these reached maximum temperature in a couple minutes.

Also, if you or anyone builds a mechanical switch, make sure the contacts don't switch on at the same time, because that will cause a short circuit across the battery and will fry wires just the same as my incorrect wiring.

Also, the load is placed across the positives of the capacitors, that was not shown in the circuit drawing.
peace love light

Here is circuit with polarity shown, from dragon.

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Last edited by SkyWatcher; 09-30-2017 at 03:25 AM.
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  #11  
Old 09-29-2017, 10:36 PM
Wistiti Wistiti is online now
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:)

Hi Sky and all!
I have a great surprise when I arrive at home after the work!
The 2 cap are arrived! Just in time for the weekends.

Thanks for the info about the polarity of the cap vs load. Maybe a new schematic is needed to avoid confusion... if you do that I thank you in advence.

Will let you know about my progress...

Ciao!
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Old 09-29-2017, 10:37 PM
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My apologies SkyWatcher, I shouldn't make assumptions that people understand my drawings. The lack of polarity markers could lead to confusion.

Nice work on the switch, very clever !

I spent a little time this afternoon putting the 12v unit back together again to experiment with some low voltage quartz halogen bulbs. Also, so I can match some of the experiments others might do.

Edit....Yes, that is one of the many coils I made up for testing.

Edited drawing for polarity clarification...
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Last edited by dragon; 09-30-2017 at 01:28 AM.
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  #13  
Old 09-30-2017, 02:39 AM
Wistiti Wistiti is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragon View Post
My apologies SkyWatcher, I shouldn't make assumptions that people understand my drawings. The lack of polarity markers could lead to confusion.

Nice work on the switch, very clever !

I spent a little time this afternoon putting the 12v unit back together again to experiment with some low voltage quartz halogen bulbs. Also, so I can match some of the experiments others might do.

Edit....Yes, that is one of the many coils I made up for testing.

Edited drawing for polarity clarification...
It is clear for everyone that have play with the 3bgs share by Turion and the one who take the time to read your PDF Dragon, but I think it's a good thing to have clarify the schematic for all the others...

Thank you for that Dragon!
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Old 09-30-2017, 03:34 AM
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Hi wistiti, nice capacitors.
i removed all the circuitry from mine some time ago, though it shouldn't be a problem leaving it on, though it will draw down the energy in the caps some.
Look forward to any results you share wistiti.

Hi dragon, thanks for the compliments.
The next step will probably be a different or bigger load and i can also adjust the switching speed a little.

I'm wondering if the voltage will be high enough and stable enough to power my dc/dc boost converter, it's a 400 watt version.

If the voltage is not high and steady enough for it, there are other lower voltage boost converters i can try.
Just realized, it would need a bridge rectifier, hmm, will think about it.
peace love light
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Last edited by SkyWatcher; 09-30-2017 at 03:38 AM.
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  #15  
Old 09-30-2017, 01:54 PM
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I'm quite interested in how those 1.5F caps are going to work out you and Wistiti have. I realize it's not that big of difference from my 1F's but there is a reasonable increase in storage.

I've run regular resistive loads in parallel with a bridge rectifier to drive a motor and it works well. Unfortunately the voltage drop across the diodes reduces the average working voltage considerably.

My focus has been primarily on the peak amperage for driving heavy resistive loads while attempting to reduce input requirements as much as possible. The basic charge pump circuit as presented is a simple example of moving and balancing charges, a small part to a larger end.

Edit: As additional "food for thought" look at the Carl Betz hand drawing at the bottom of the Rexresearch page Thomas Henry Moray: The Sea of Energy ~ Excerpts of technical factoids & illustrations of the Moray Radiant Energy Receiver. Note that there is only a static charge between antenna and ground. At no point is there any method to discharge any of the capacitors.... only methods to manipulate the charge. Isn't that interesting....
.
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  #16  
Old 09-30-2017, 05:01 PM
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Interested to see output from bigger caps

Hi all,

been playing around with the same circuitry this past few weeks using a little bigger caps and more load (the good part by having terminals and not soldered), as I have not built the higher voltage "charge pump" yet..

a little video..


Battery has been isolated by a switch into a 4700uf capacitor to test if how long would the circuit run by itself.. as expected it run down easily.. by voltage drop and of course capacitor is not a constant voltage source, but seeing it perform infront of my eyes really is great, cycling 20000uf caps, powering 11 60ma(each) bulbs + switching circuitry.. and being able to sustain it within a few seconds with such a small cap.. it isn't much I know... but to prove the concept is really worth something...

I tried to remove the load and just compare what is the difference of time it will be able to sustain it with a load, and the time with just the switching circuitry... Its even longer by a few second with a more resistive load connected..

it might have been because there is still energy left in that 20000uf capacitor.. and that might have been powering the switching more.. but still its really doing more for less and it seems my input is only for the initial charge and the switching... those 11 bulbs at 60ma each even at half powered wouldn't last even a second on that 4700uf cap..

no Overunity here.. just doing more for less..
I'm very interested to see output from bigger capacitors or higher voltage pulses.
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Old 09-30-2017, 11:10 PM
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An excellent presentation ricards, nicely done !
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Old 09-30-2017, 11:45 PM
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a thumb up on your video !!! nice work ricards !


https://maxcdn.icons8.com/Share/icon...mbs_up1600.png
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Last edited by med.3012; 09-30-2017 at 11:51 PM. Reason: the hand is very big :D
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  #19  
Old 10-01-2017, 04:58 AM
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all thanks to dragon for sharing the concept

I tried to power a transformer, but could only get 2 volts (It increases by frequency), with the current setup, not sure about the current.

I'm thinking of pulsing power with higher voltage rather... as energy in caps raise more by increasing in volts (w = 0.5*C*V^2) that would make it easier for me to source for mosfet's.. as trying to find for Mosfets that can withstand the instantaneous current of supercaps would be a real challenge. the challenge of the higher voltage of course would be the risk of electrocution, and sourcing for high capacitance high voltage caps..
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Old 10-01-2017, 05:04 PM
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Hi all, thanks for sharing everyone, I'm glad folks are interested in this as it does seem promising.
Thanks for the great video ricards, nice work with the circuitry.

I ran a test today, using a spot light i have with a 100 watt halogen bulb inside it.
It ran the bulb continuous at low brightness and sometimes pulses brighter.
If aimed at my face from a distance, my head gets nice and toasty.

I placed a multimeter in-line to the bulb and it peaks at around 6.5 amps, and fluctuates down to around an amp.
I would say it is an average of maybe 2-3 amps.
Would need a higher voltage to keep any kind of bulbs lighted brightly, though would be fine for heater coils and resistors, etc.
I will test the bridge rectifier, connected to my boost converter and see if it can run anything, or even stay activated that is, later today.
peace love light
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Old 10-01-2017, 05:39 PM
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Work in progress

Hi guys, nice job builders!!
Here is a photo of the work in progress, of my mechanical switch.
I remove the blade of a computer fan and put 2 copper strip 180deg on the rotor...

Work in progress!
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Old 10-01-2017, 05:57 PM
Wistiti Wistiti is online now
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Oups!

It will work much better this way!!!
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Old 10-01-2017, 06:59 PM
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Nice wistiti, i wonder though, if the rpm's will be too high for those large capacitors to discharge and charge balance in any significant way.
That is why i used a low rpm geared microwave turntable motor.
Will be interested to see the results.
peace love light
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Old 10-02-2017, 01:19 AM
Wistiti Wistiti is online now
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Need low frequency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyWatcher View Post
Nice wistiti, i wonder though, if the rpm's will be too high for those large capacitors to discharge and charge balance in any significant way.
That is why i used a low rpm geared microwave turntable motor.
Will be interested to see the results.
peace love light

You are quite right Sky; this circuit need to be drive at low frequency to let the cap charge. So I forgot the motor switching and go for a 555 timer an automotive relay.

As I don't have resistive load to try with the circuit, I step up the voltage with a transformer rectify the output and charge some batt with it... I already ear people say "battery are tricky!!!" I know it and the purpose of this test is not to show mesurement of any kind.

Anyway the 555 with relay is an easy way to go!
https://youtu.be/2ZU7xqrC2Ek
Ciao!
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Old 10-02-2017, 03:34 PM
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Hi all, Hi wistiti, looking good, how is it working so far, is it charging the battery and how is it affecting the input battery.
peace love light
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Old 10-02-2017, 03:51 PM
Wistiti Wistiti is online now
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Hi all, Hi wistiti, looking good, how is it working so far, is it charging the battery and how is it affecting the input battery.
peace love light
Hi Sky and all.
Yes it is charging the battery but it use to much amp on the primary batt. The wire become hot between the batt and the cap. I have to think of a better way to use the load between the + of the cap...

I have not push the test further but I have max out from this circuit near 2-3hz frequency of the relay.
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Old 10-02-2017, 05:03 PM
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You might be farther ahead to run a 50 or 100 watt resistive load in series with the transformer to regulate the amperage. Since the frequency is low the transformer is actually fairly inefficient at transferring energy, also, the higher voltage output isn't matched very well for charging the lower voltage batteries. If the batteries were in series to closely match the output of the transformer secondary then watt in would be closer to watt out. For instance 12 volt at 1 amp in and 120 volt at .1 amp out - both provide 12 watts... 12 volt battery charging a 120 volt battery bank. However, you could use the output to charge a cap and pulse the output into a battery thus drastically increasing the amperage into the battery. This type of charging can be tricky if not done properly.

I've done some interesting things with transformers using this basic layout. First you have to remember, as shown in the diagram, this is a purely passive device functioning on the basic RC time constant while shifting and balancing charges. When you add a coil or transformer it becomes reactive and functions as an LCR circuit. Either way it works very well but first and foremost you need to know what you want to do with the output - design it around the desired outcome.

The 12 volt circuit is an excellent starting point - learn what it does and see it for what it is.... then visualize what it could do...

I've set a focus on heating as it's one of the highest demands on energy. Lights, TV, refrigeration etc are all simple tasks that don't require a large amount of energy. Running a water heater, drying clothes and heating a home is a huge energy consumer.
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Old 10-02-2017, 06:04 PM
Wistiti Wistiti is online now
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learning

Thank you Dragon for your input, it is appreciate.

I go out for dinner and buy 2 x 12v 50w halogen bulb for resistive load. I will try to paralleled them with the transformer tonight. Hope to see the current draw goes down... About the RLC part (when adding a coil in the circuit) do you thought building this part of the circuit to reach resonance..? It might not be easy with the value of the component in place and the low frequency... I will also try feeding a cap and pulsing it to charging battery. The idea of Skywatcher to rectify the output to a cap and feed a dcdc converter merit also a try... The pleasure of learning by experimenting!

I have to say I also particularly like the Carl Betz hand drawing you have share (I see it was draw by Bruce Perrault). It will be interesting to see where this simple circuit can lead us with further experiments...

Again, thank you for sharing your knowledge and help!
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Old 10-02-2017, 06:32 PM
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It doesn't necessarily need to be resonant simply set up to operate within its design parameters ( i.e. 50/60 hz ). You can design for resonance, it simply boils down to what your intending as a load.

That drawing was drawn my Carl Betz in 1954, Bruce allowed Rexresearch to post it. He did re-draw it a few times on his own and there are other modified versions by Bruce on the internet.

Edit: The 12 volt 50 watt quartz halogen bulbs came in so I just connected them up in parallel and fired it up...
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Old 10-03-2017, 01:38 AM
Wistiti Wistiti is online now
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8-0

Hi guys!
Wow Dragon, really impressive!!
Do you drive it with only 12vdc as the source (c1)??
It is exactly the same bulb I have buy this noon and with my setup, for the same brightness, I can only have 2 //...

You are right about the resistive load, it reduce the amp draw.
In my setup it is best to have the bulb (12vdc 50w) in serie with the transformer.

See the image for more details.

Ciao!

Ps: sorry for the messy setup!
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