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  #31  
Old 10-03-2017, 02:08 AM
dragon dragon is offline
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Excellent Wistiti - your set up looks a lot cleaner than most of my quickie builds for testing, I tend to make quite a mess. Yes, I'm using a 12v battery in C1 position.

I'm not concerned with brightness, it's more about the radiant energy being emitted - at least for the output I'm looking for. So far I'm pretty impressed with the halogen bulbs - heat wise. Haven't had much time to work with them but I think they perform equal to or maybe a little better than the nichrome coils I've been testing... the bulbs were inspired by SkyWatchers "spot light" test.

getting late, another long day tomorrow...

Edit: It just dawned on me that you could take the toroid transformer and wind another coil on it with less turns than the 12 volt side. Connect the new windings between caps and resistive load and use the 12 volt side as the output. This might help in matching the load and increase current into the battery being charged. You might need to experiment with turns to find the most efficient output... just a passing thought...

Patent number 3,963,976 for a simple pulsed battery charger - almost like you have but instead of a diode going to your battery use a mosfet ( or another relay ) to pulse the output. If you have a cap in the range of the patent that you can charge to 20-30 volts you'll be able to push 20 amps into the battery pulsing it.
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  #32  
Old 10-03-2017, 03:11 AM
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Hi all, here is the 100 watt spotlight, halogen bulb load.
https://youtu.be/gr_OMoyuO0k

peace love light

edit: thanks for sharing the picture dragon, thats a pretty heavy load, how much heat would you say is coming off those bulbs.
And thanks wistiti for sharing your pic and drawing, look forward to your results with your halogen bulbs also.
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  #33  
Old 10-03-2017, 02:31 PM
Wistiti Wistiti is online now
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Nice job Sky!

does some of you guys have try to boil water with this circuit?
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  #34  
Old 10-03-2017, 03:25 PM
dragon dragon is offline
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Looks like your mechanical switch works quite well SkyWatcher, you might benefit a bit if you could adjust the frequency a little higher if possible.

I did some very quick tests with the bulbs last night... using aluminum and copper as the absorbers. The aluminum warmed to 180*F, the copper to 400*F. Both are not oxidized and function more as reflectors at this point so the numbers were only an indicator of what could be done. With the above, using numbers attained from the copper, each bulb produced 85 BTU - total of 850 BTU for the 10 bulbs. I believe this could be doubled using oxidized copper or even coating the copper with stove paint.

Initially I didn't believe the 12 volt system could be made to produce any high volume of heat (BTU) which is why I started working on the larger HV system. This may have changed my mind. It also dawned on me that using 2 separate systems driven by one battery switching 180* apart would use about the same amount of energy as a single unit.

Wistiti, do a quick search for 12 volt heating elements. I use a 300 watt 12 volt element in my hot water heater that is pulsed all day long. Keeps it plenty warm...
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  #35  
Old 10-04-2017, 01:03 AM
ricards ricards is online now
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850 BTU is almost 900 Kilo Joules and you could double it?!

are you using the same 1 farad caps @ 12v?

that's just about 72 Joules and your not discharging them fully..

it seems dragon has been heating stuff very efficiently.

I guess I'm being left out of the fun, my build is just nearly complete.

maybe my math is wrong hope someone can clarify some calculations. thanks
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Last edited by ricards; 10-04-2017 at 01:10 AM. Reason: maybe my math is wrong..
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  #36  
Old 10-04-2017, 02:42 AM
dragon dragon is offline
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Looks like your spot on... I have an average of 20 amps through the bulbs with a peak of 250 watts, a frequency that doesn't allow much fluctuation in the elements (very little cooling between pulses ). Since we're heating with radiant energy, not necessarily the electric input, we can achieve some interesting gains on heat production.

As you continue moving up in frequency -radio, microwave, infrared, ultraviolet, Xray, gamma etc, the energy available increases exponentially. Heat, any heat source, is just one way to produce IR frequencies. So then... what is radiant energy?
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  #37  
Old 10-04-2017, 03:55 AM
Wistiti Wistiti is online now
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Hi Dragon!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragon View Post

It also dawned on me that using 2 separate systems driven by one battery switching 180* apart would use about the same amount of energy as a single unit.
Can you please elaborate more on this? Am not sure to quite understand...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragon View Post
Wistiti, do a quick search for 12 volt heating elements. I use a 300 watt 12 volt element in my hot water heater that is pulsed all day long. Keeps it plenty warm...
Thank you for the input! I have a 150w 12v and a 300w 12v ordered. I would really appreciate to warm some water cheaply with that concept...

When you said you pulsed the hot water heater all day long, is it with the same battery without charging it..?? If so I will really love to know how you achieve it! Right now I have interesting results but my battery drain flat in couple hours.



Ricards I will love to see your next setup!
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  #38  
Old 10-04-2017, 10:16 AM
ricards ricards is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wistiti View Post
When you said you pulsed the hot water heater all day long, is it with the same battery without charging it..?? If so I will really love to know how you achieve it! Right now I have interesting results but my battery drain flat in couple hours.



Ricards I will love to see your next setup!
yo wistiti,

glad to be working on the same project again!

you could try the switching scheme I had on my video, you can see the battery would not run down fast this way (it might not run down at all ), its like putting the battery at C3 Position but you have to charge C1 every cycle.

Back_n_Forthpng.png

this has some drawback though,, if you put your load on the coil in that schematics you would only power it by the potential difference of your battery and the capacitor, (usually half your battery voltage 6-7 volts).

If you power your load in between capacitor (@ SW3) you would be powering at an unspecified voltage (I could not get any measurement) but this is the optimum location of the load as the release of that capacitor as it discharge to the battery is instantaneous it would be as if the only resistance was your load and the wire that connects it. BUT.. of course another drawback is you would only get output 1/3 of the time unlike your current configuration.
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  #39  
Old 10-04-2017, 12:55 PM
Wistiti Wistiti is online now
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:)

Hi Ricards!
It's a pleasure for me too to have you on this project!

Thank's for your input! Can you please elaborate a bit more on the circuit you use to drive these 3 relay? What do you use as the clock??

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  #40  
Old 10-04-2017, 06:34 PM
dragon dragon is offline
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I get the impression people are viewing this circuit as some kind of overunity device.... As I stated in the other thread where this started, it is not. It's simply a method of generating an "activity" that will drive a load larger than a given input would normally allow. The "peak" current and voltage will drive heavy loads, the "average" will sustain current/voltage long enough until the next peak pulse. Peaks drive the element, averages keep them from cooling.

Reducing the input requirement is the only objective at this point. Recycling is just one method to achieve it. You still have to replenish the source but the amount is far less.

Edit: clarification for driving 2 pumps with one source...
Attached Images
File Type: png charge pump compair.PNG (10.7 KB, 29 views)
File Type: png Charge pump 180.PNG (11.4 KB, 32 views)
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  #41  
Old 10-04-2017, 08:09 PM
Wistiti Wistiti is online now
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:)

Thank you dragon for the clarification.
Don't worry I do not think it is other thing than a "better" way to drive resistive load

It will take some days before I can play again with it. But will look forward to what you guys will share.
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  #42  
Old 10-04-2017, 11:36 PM
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Hi all, i have an idea I'm going to try.
It is based off of dragons double pass circuit drawing, fig.2, in his charge pump compare pic.

I will use one 12 volt battery to power my dc/dc boost converter, the output from that boost converter, will replace the battery shown, though i will set the voltage at some higher level, depending on what is best.

Then, i will have another 12 volt battery, on the other switching leg, in series with the capacitor and a low resistance, high power load.

I feel this will work well, because the capacitor will always, only be discharged to 12 volts, or whatever the secondary battery voltage level is at.
The higher voltage on capacitor, should help reduce amp draw on the boost converter.
Also, the boost converter will be switched out of the other circuit, similar to bedinis cap dump circuits, so the charge battery and load will be floating, to then receive the capacitor dump.

By this method also, we can swap the 12 volt battery positions, for extended run time.
Thoughts welcome.
peace love light
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  #43  
Old 10-05-2017, 12:31 AM
dragon dragon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyWatcher View Post
Hi all, i have an idea I'm going to try.
It is based off of dragons double pass circuit drawing, fig.2, in his charge pump compare pic.

I will use one 12 volt battery to power my dc/dc boost converter, the output from that boost converter, will replace the battery shown, though i will set the voltage at some higher level, depending on what is best.

Then, i will have another 12 volt battery, on the other switching leg, in series with the capacitor and a low resistance, high power load.

I feel this will work well, because the capacitor will always, only be discharged to 12 volts, or whatever the secondary battery voltage level is at.
The higher voltage on capacitor, should help reduce amp draw on the boost converter.
Also, the boost converter will be switched out of the other circuit, similar to bedinis cap dump circuits, so the charge battery and load will be floating, to then receive the capacitor dump.

By this method also, we can swap the 12 volt battery positions, for extended run time.
Thoughts welcome.
peace love light
Aren't you the clever one !!
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  #44  
Old 10-05-2017, 02:14 AM
Wistiti Wistiti is online now
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:)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragon View Post
Aren't you the clever one !!
Hahahaha! For sure he is!

Skywatcher is one of the few builders I know who is not only cleaver but also honest and respectful with ANY others (even when they use aggressive language). He always share is experiment and idea freely with others. I personally learn many things with is experiments (sure many others too!) And for that he deserve a big thumb up!!! Definitively the fellow you want to have in this kind of builders team!!!



Really nice idea Sky!
I will be out of building for few days but cant wait to try it!
Looking forward to you experiment!
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  #45  
Old 10-05-2017, 02:51 AM
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Hi dragon, thanks for the kind words and thank you for drawing those circuits.

The top drawing is what i had in mind and the middle one, with the added capacitor on the boost converter output, might be beneficial.
My boost converter has almost 1000uF already built in.

The bottom circuit drawing, The capacitor dump into the dual mode battery, might enter into the input of the boost converter and cause a problem.

Also, discharging and charging the same battery, not sure how good that is for the battery, though the 1984 bedini generator seemed to use that method.

Hi wistiti, I can say the same for you, you are an honest and sharing soul and clever of course.
I'm glad my efforts are of help to people, I enjoy experimenting also.

I will be assembling this idea, as soon as i can, we will see how it goes.
peace love light
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  #46  
Old 10-05-2017, 03:29 AM
ricards ricards is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wistiti View Post
Hi Ricards!
It's a pleasure for me too to have you on this project!

Thank's for your input! Can you please elaborate a bit more on the circuit you use to drive these 3 relay? What do you use as the clock??

Wistiti,

I only use 555 + cd4017 to make a clock based oscillator, you can try other but this is the cheapest and most convenient for me as I can simply replace chips If they fail/burnout, I only mount them on 8 and 16 pinouts modules.

this is what I'm upto now, in layout 3 is the actual circuit in a test board, the other is a schematic I drew up to eliminate relay by using FET and Optocoupler, this is like the upgraded version of what I'm telling you, you can reverse engineer it.
Back_n_Forth-Layout3.pdf
Back_n_Forth-SS.pdf
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  #47  
Old 10-05-2017, 05:51 PM
dragon dragon is offline
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Skywatcher, glad I could add inspiration to your creative thoughts... that's the whole idea. I added the cap in the second drawing because it seemed the converter might have to work pretty hard in bursts or slow down the charging process, with the cap it would act as a buffer and allow full amps through the load charging the other cap. This way the converter has more time to maintain a charge and wouldn't instantly go to full output.

The last drawing I was simply speculating ways to reduce it to its simplest form. As long as the cap dump voltage was lower than the max rating on the converter it shouldn't matter. Most of the energy would go to recharge the first cap and anything left over would help maintain the battery. No different than putting a charger on the battery and running a load from the same battery, the input is shared and the biggest draw gets the charge.

I plan to set up a simple version of it when time allows, in the meantime I'll see how everyone does with the idea. Still have a couple weeks of work to catch up on.
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  #48  
Old 10-05-2017, 09:09 PM
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SkyWatcher SkyWatcher is offline
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Hi all, Hi dragon, I'm also glad that you freely share your creativity, this realm would be a sad place, if nobody gave freely of themselves in some way.

Yes, what you have described about your circuit variations, is exactly what I thought your intentions were.

I tried the top circuit, the one that came into mind and it works well, though i used a computer power supply, as input to the boost converter and i could see the colored leds that are in the psu, dim at times, though the killawatt meter showed an average of 50 watts.
I'm sure if using a 12 volt battery instead of computer power supply and a capacitor buffer, it would be better, because i don't think the load was getting the amps it could have.

I then tested your bottom circuit variation and it seems to work fine also, the 30 watt, very low ohm resistor load was heating up quick.

Like i said, i don't know how efficient it is to discharge and charge the same battery like that, i'm going to say the battery probably doesn't like it so much.
Though since i still have that circuit variation setup, i will continue to test it and see what happens.

I also had to wire my two 1.5 farad capacitors in series, to handle the voltage and i also dug up a couple 1 farad car audio caps i had from previous experiments.
I'm using the 1 farads in series, as the buffer off the boost converter.
Testing shall continue.
peace love light
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  #49  
Old 10-06-2017, 11:09 AM
ricards ricards is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragon View Post
I get the impression people are viewing this circuit as some kind of overunity device.... As I stated in the other thread where this started, it is not. It's simply a method of generating an "activity" that will drive a load larger than a given input would normally allow. The "peak" current and voltage will drive heavy loads, the "average" will sustain current/voltage long enough until the next peak pulse. Peaks drive the element, averages keep them from cooling.

Reducing the input requirement is the only objective at this point. Recycling is just one method to achieve it. You still have to replenish the source but the amount is far less.

Edit: clarification for driving 2 pumps with one source...
for sure currently in its form.. its not. we've all proved that to ourselves with experiment.
BUT! to be able to use the same Energy twice! (or more)... is really something, imagine if you could do a successful 80% efficiency energy conversion.. that could have been at 160% output...

but then again that only applies assuming that there was no "Energy Conversion" that it was just "Cause and Effect"... electric current was the cause and Heat was the Effect or Electric current was the cause and magnetism was the effect.. this is what I'm trying to find out with experiments.. since we already know how to use the same energy twice.
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  #50  
Old 10-06-2017, 07:36 PM
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Hi all, here is a video showing dragons circuit variation in action.

The circuit with the single battery powering the boost converter and so being discharged and charged intermittently, while also powering a resistor bank load.
Here is circuits drawn by dragon, this video is based on the bottom circuit.


https://youtu.be/AI6Sir7ZL60

As you can see, the volt meter is showing the 12 volt tractor battery being discharged and charged.
The 30 watt-.5 ohm resistor bank heats up rather quickly.

The 12 volt battery resting voltage was 12.57 volts and recovers to that or just below after an hour or so.

I will test this variation some more, though i still feel the dual battery version might be more efficient, then the batteries can be swapped, we shall see.
peace love light
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  #51  
Old 10-07-2017, 04:44 AM
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Hi all, just want to share an interesting observation.
The voltage on the 12 volt battery is still resting at 12.57 volts, after well over 4 hours.
I ran that circuit for at least 30 minutes today.
Seems promising, maybe the dual battery setup would be even better.
peace love light
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  #52  
Old 10-07-2017, 03:06 PM
ricards ricards is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyWatcher View Post
Hi all, just want to share an interesting observation.
The voltage on the 12 volt battery is still resting at 12.57 volts, after well over 4 hours.
I ran that circuit for at least 30 minutes today.
Seems promising, maybe the dual battery setup would be even better.
peace love light
well, isn't that great sky! it would seem your just borrowing the energy from the battery and returning it back without loss in potential,

just finished my build, will run it overnight, the light from the my mini bulbs are blinding, hope they last till tomorrow, there was literally no conductor connecting the positive to the negative all being blocked by either the dielectric of the capacitor or the electrolyte of the battery and yet we could get an output.

yes this is indeed promising!.
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  #53  
Old 10-07-2017, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragon View Post
So then... what is radiant energy?
accelerated charges braid together in many ways to form a rope
like structures freezing the magnetic flux. As that structure is unraveled
the stretched magnetic flux instantly snaps back like a rubber band.
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  #54  
Old 10-07-2017, 06:22 PM
dragon dragon is offline
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Originally Posted by mikrovolt View Post
accelerated charges braid together in many ways to form a rope
like structures freezing the magnetic flux. As that structure is unraveled
the stretched magnetic flux instantly snaps back like a rubber band.
The theory sounds interesting Mikrovolt, do you have a method to test and prove this possibility? I'd be interested in a "side" project if it can be done on a small budget.

I've done some work with storing energy in compressed magnetic fields which isn't to far out of line with the charged capacitors in this pump, simply different forms of energy with a similar response when released. Neither are radiant although they do interact with the local environment.
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  #55  
Old 10-08-2017, 05:06 PM
mikrovolt mikrovolt is offline
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The charge pump example uses a mechanical switch causing an impulse.
a simpler case can be used about what is known about radiant energy.
Unlike the stationary charge a moving charge has two properties.

A simulation relates to the mathematic derivation.
Electromagnetic field of an accelerated charge
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  #56  
Old 10-09-2017, 08:21 PM
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Hi all, I'm testing a different variation of the charge pump.
It is like my initial variant, based off the dragons double pass circuit.

Though instead of the single 12 volt battery powering the boost converter, It is only using two 12 volt tractor batteries in series and the single 12 volt battery on the other switching leg as the charging battery.
It does seem efficient so far.

I ran it for 20 minutes and oddly, the voltages increased a little on the input series batteries and of course the charge battery to a large degree.
These were the starting resting voltages of the batteries:
Battery A = 12.52 volts
Battery B = 12.53 volts
Battery C = 12.55 volts charge battery

Now the batteries are resting at these voltages after over a couple hours:
Battery A = 12.55 volts
Battery B = 12.54 volts
Battery C = 12.70 volts charge battery

Thoughts welcome, i will continue to test this variant.
peace love light
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Last edited by SkyWatcher; 10-09-2017 at 08:23 PM.
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  #57  
Old 10-10-2017, 01:07 AM
ricards ricards is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyWatcher View Post
Hi all, I'm testing a different variation of the charge pump.
It is like my initial variant, based off the dragons double pass circuit.

Though instead of the single 12 volt battery powering the boost converter, It is only using two 12 volt tractor batteries in series and the single 12 volt battery on the other switching leg as the charging battery.
It does seem efficient so far.

I ran it for 20 minutes and oddly, the voltages increased a little on the input series batteries and of course the charge battery to a large degree.
These were the starting resting voltages of the batteries:
Battery A = 12.52 volts
Battery B = 12.53 volts
Battery C = 12.55 volts charge battery

Now the batteries are resting at these voltages after over a couple hours:
Battery A = 12.55 volts
Battery B = 12.54 volts
Battery C = 12.70 volts charge battery

Thoughts welcome, i will continue to test this variant.
peace love light
Hi sky,

it seems your only input was only for the switching huh?.. I guess that's the advantage of mechanical switching over electronic one, I do suffer from diode's and transistors voltage drop. 0.7V @ high capacitance can be a lot of energy, and my circuitry have like 4 diode pass...
what's the highest frequency you could ramp it up to?
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  #58  
Old 10-10-2017, 03:23 AM
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Hi ricards, thanks for the reply.
Yes, switching input is from wall ac power.
I think this geared, microwave turn table motor can reach 35 rpm at 21vac, though i am applying about 12vac, so maybe it is rotating around 20 rpm.

Even though the charge battery C is already at full charge, i ran another 25 minute test run.
After 3 hours rest time, here is battery voltages.
Battery A = 12.56 volts
Battery B = 12.54 volts
Battery C = 12.71 volts charge battery
I will swap battery C into Battery B position for next run.
Here is circuit drawing.



peace love light
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  #59  
Old 10-10-2017, 12:39 PM
dragon dragon is offline
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Very interesting SkyWatcher, Nicely done. I haven't actually calculated anything but as a quick visual analysis... charging the battery in position C seems to be very similar to the original circuit charging C2 (restoring the original energy to be reused). One of the differences being that one is recycled once every full cycle while the other is swapping positions of the batteries being charged.

You could reduce it to 2 batteries and charge battery B requiring battery A to be charged periodically or swapped with battery B.
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  #60  
Old 10-10-2017, 05:03 PM
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Hi dragon, thanks, i was actually thinking about trying something like that.

The only difference about your idea, is one of the batteries is being discharged and charged simultaneously, which may not be the most efficient, as far as batteries are concerned.
Though i will give it a try at some point here.
peace love light
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