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  #31  
Old 10-02-2017, 06:02 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Induction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
...
4- MAGNET+DISC STATIC, ONLY TWO BRUSHES ROTATING= V><0 or V Presence [/B]This missing experiment on above video, except for the BACK-FORTH HAND MOVEMENT which shows an UP-DOWN Voltage Zig-Zag, WOULD HAVE BEEN THE MORE IMPORTANT OF ALL THE ABOVE!!!

Why?...Just because it CLEARLY PROVES that it is all about that CONDUCTIVE PATH DEFINED BY THE TWO BRUSHES, ROTATING, what really generates an Induction output, taking this WHOLE EXPERIMENT DOWN to a specific element DEFINED AS TOPNOTCH HERE, which eventually will throw or RULE OUT whether DISC OR MAGNET MOVES OR NOT.

On the other hand, by moving-rotating just the two brushes, this Conductive Path is the same RELATED to the TWO BRUSH POSITIONING, HOWEVER, DIFFERENT PORTIONS OF DISC METAL ARE COVERED through just the Brushes spinning on top of STATIC copper disc. And so, this FACT ALSO TAKES PLACE whenever Disc Spins while brushes are static...
Hi Ufo,

Did you watch part 2? It continues the investigation and lists 3 conclusions at the end, #1 being:

Quote:
Magnetic induction does not necessarily need counter-movement between a magnet and a conductor.
Doesn't that contradict your statements above?

Regards,

bi
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  #32  
Old 10-02-2017, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Hi Ufo,

Did you watch part 2? It continues the investigation and lists 3 conclusions at the end, #1 being:

Quote:
Magnetic induction does not necessarily need counter-movement between a magnet and a conductor.


Doesn't that contradict your statements above?

Regards,

bi
Hello Bistander,

Nope, not at all and as a matter of fact I will say that it is a very real and verifiable conclusion.

There are MANY, but I mean many ways to obtain Induction where it is NOT required any Physical movement of either conductor or magnet, whether reciprocating nor linear, not any at all and get induction achieved.

Problem is...which one is more "suitable" in order that Output would be "Fully Compatible" with our actual ways to generate BUT MAINLY to CONSUME electrical power.


Regards


Ufopolitics
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  #33  
Old 10-03-2017, 04:04 AM
lotec lotec is offline
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Hi UofoPolitics,
Thanks for taking the time to read my post and prepare your response. I just want to clarify the fact that the video was first posted on this thread by the user Seaad. Thinking that this post deserved further treatment, I just referenced it at the top of my post so I could conveniently convey some of my thoughts on the matter.

Concerning the wave form on the scope when he was moving the pickups backward and forward relative to the disk, now that you mention it, I would have thought that it might have been a bit curvier at certain places. Good spotting. Whether this is due to a low resolution scope, combined with the way the high gain voltage amplifier was constructed, or some other reasons, I don't know. As it is at the moment, I believe that the alleged truths about homo polar generator that are being conveyed within, are in fact true. As far as beliefs go, I am always ready to change them if I am presented with a compelling enough reason to do so (eventually).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post

... understand that brushes on above video, delimit a CONDUCTING PATH on the Copper Disc...
I agree with a lot of the stuff that you posted, but I found that statement particularly poignant. Perhaps there is something to be learned by shifting our focus to what might be happening in the nonconducting regions of the disk.

When it comes to flux cutting wires and vica verca, I think we could nearly be on the same page about that. Without delving too deeply into the relationship between electron spin and coherent ether flow, I don't see any logical reason to believe that its absolutely necessary for anything to cut anything. Wouldn't proximity itself be enough? With a deeper understanding of the phenomena, such things might just appear to be more and more circumstantial.


Hi Bistander,
Last time we sort of spoke, you gave me some subtle, yet wise advise concerning an idea that I had put out there. At the time I was blind to the truth that you were trying to convey. I had to build the circuit and test it out, to come to that conclusion. I put it down to a self created temporary delusion needed to reinforce the thrill of the chase. Someone has to keep things real, so I am taking this synchronistic opportunity to express that.
Good observation spotting that second video. I have only skimmed it, but am aware of the conclusions. I have to admit, I'm a little bit surprised that he pushed the envelope that far, but good on him. It will take me some time to fully digest it. You can probably see that some of the conclusions were more clearly implied in the first video than others. One of the experiments at first glance looked suspiciously like the Sgnac experiment.
As for the conclusion that is most relevant to this thread, I think still more can be said about that.

Regards
Wil.
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  #34  
Old 10-04-2017, 12:40 AM
lotec lotec is offline
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Hi UfoPolitics,

I might have misunderstood parts of your post, If you were hinting at the fact that the scenario, magnet and disk stationary while brushes move, was faked.

I think that is always a probability. If that turns out to be true, then everything on my last two posts will be false.

Science seems to be about leaping from one conclusion to another, so when someone makes a leap they need to be sure they are right or everything else that comes after is either wrong or is severely floored.

Regards.

EDIT //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

I have made a big mistake in my logic, in the last few posts, that was brought about my misinterpretation of a video demonstration that I posted a few posts ago.

It was concerning the scenario where the magnet and the disk are stationary and the pickup brushes are rotated and induction occurs. This probably set of a chain of events that lead to idea that the magnet and conductor may not need to move in relation to each other to cause induction. This could still be the case maybe, I dont know, but it wont be for the reasons I presented. There is a second video that comes to that conclusion but I dont understand how. What I do beleive though, is the concept I was presenting in terms of there needing to be a reset condition, and the way I applied it to said scenario, is floored, because it doesnt take into account polarity.

Personally I think that the only part of the disk that can be considered the conductor is the conductive pathway between the brushes, and the rest seems pretty irelevant to me. When the brushes move so does the conductor. The fact that the polarity changes with the direction of the brush movement, suggests to me the conductor is being cut by magnetic flux lines.

I appologise for wasting anyones time and for presenting eroneous theories.
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  #35  
Old 10-04-2017, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lotec View Post
Hi UfoPolitics,

I might have misunderstood parts of your post, If you were hinting at the fact that the scenario, magnet and disk stationary while brushes move, was faked.

I think that is always a probability. If that turns out to be true, then everything on my last two posts will be false.
Hello Lotec,

I was NOT hinting of a possible fake when brushes were moved. I consider that as a FACT, REAL.

What I was wondering ...is why He did not carry a full experiment where brushes were rotating, while disc and magnet static?
Maybe because it would be a lot more work to build two slip rings plus two more (Fixed) brushes to take it to scope...

I thought on the second video He would build it (brushes rotating)...which would have taken to a final and more specific conclusion, like I wrote previously.

But instead he jumps into a Capacitor based patent...either ways he reaches one main conclusion...Einstein was wrong as that magnetic field would rotate with magnet*...and so, no "Moving Bodies (understand as Magnet and Conductor counter movement) are required to obtain EM Induction...

*Like I wrote previously, Magnet and Field for this particular Geometry of the Homopolar Generator, where rotation takes place FROM the AXIS of the Magnet...However, if we rotate magnet AXIS, PERPENDICULAR to the axis of rotation, then the whole thing changes, and that is the direct application to any typical generator now days...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lotec View Post
Science seems to be about leaping from one conclusion to another, so when someone makes a leap they need to be sure they are right or everything else that comes after is either wrong or is severely floored.

Regards.
Exactly, as I agree above...take some time and read this pdf that I have found on the UFO (Alien Reproduction Vehicles) Thread posted by Spacecase:

THEORY OF RELATIVITY - ULTIMATE DISPROOF

Below I am quoting a paragraph from that pdf...:

Quote:
The origin of the fallacy of Relativity Theory lays in the wrong explanation of the homopolar engine which was invented and lately explained by Faraday in 1827 and this was the first electrical generator built ever. Result of such wrong explanation retarded development of electrical machines causing wrong assumption derived from the experiment that a linear (DC) electrical motor is not necessarily a generator too.
Regardless of the poor English translation of this article, I really could not agree more with its reasoning, basically the underlined part above, which relates to the Homopolar Machine.

Clear and precise proof of what you were saying above...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lotec View Post
EDIT //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

I have made a big mistake in my logic, in the last few posts, that was brought about my misinterpretation of a video demonstration that I posted a few posts ago.

It was concerning the scenario where the magnet and the disk are stationary and the pickup brushes are rotated and induction occurs. This probably set of a chain of events that lead to idea that the magnet and conductor may not need to move in relation to each other to cause induction. This could still be the case maybe, I dont know, but it wont be for the reasons I presented. There is a second video that comes to that conclusion but I dont understand how. What I do believe though, is the concept I was presenting in terms of there needing to be a reset condition, and the way I applied it to said scenario, is floored, because it doesnt take into account polarity.

Personally I think that the only part of the disk that can be considered the conductor is the conductive pathway between the brushes, and the rest seems pretty irelevant to me. When the brushes move so does the conductor. The fact that the polarity changes with the direction of the brush movement, suggests to me the conductor is being cut by magnetic flux lines.

I apologize for wasting anyone's time and for presenting erroneous theories.
BINGO!!...Yes, that is exactly what I wrote on my previous post, it is ALL about that conductive PATH delimited by the two brushes.

Remember Electricity ALWAYS takes the shortest path...and that won't be going around disc circumference...BUT Jumping from brush to brush, which are closer.

All EM Induction does... is to generate an ELECTRON FLOW within a Metal (Not necessarily only ferromagnetics like Iron, but also Diamagnetics as Copper, Aluminum, etc) molecular structure, Induced by the Magnetic Field PARTIAL SPINS.

But don't blame yourself for any wrong interpretation about this ancient machine friend...if there are anyone to blame...they are all dead by now...

Our Generation belongs to part of this whole confusion, originated a couple of centuries back...and fortunately, we will be the ones to clarify this whole mess.


Regards


Ufopolitics
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  #36  
Old 10-05-2017, 02:18 AM
lotec lotec is offline
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Hi UfoPoloitics,
Thanks for the encouraging post, and the links provided. It would have been nice if he did the experiment you described. That would help clarify a lot of things. It looks like a more difficult build, and I suppose he cant be expected to do everything. The second video is quite densely packed, there was no time wasted in there.

Ill take some time to read and properly digest the material you have linked.

Regards.
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  #37  
Old 10-05-2017, 03:19 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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EM induction

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Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
...

it is ALL about that conductive PATH delimited by the two brushes.

Remember Electricity ALWAYS takes the shortest path...and that won't be going around disc circumference...BUT Jumping from brush to brush, which are closer.

All EM Induction does... is to generate an ELECTRON FLOW within a Metal (Not necessarily only ferromagnetics like Iron, but also Diamagnetics as Copper, Aluminum, etc) molecular structure, Induced by the Magnetic Field PARTIAL SPINS.
...
Hi Ufo,

It's not all about the conductive path. You seem to disregard part 2 when he goes to the capacitor. Don't. It is a homopolar generator using a dielectic (insulator) as the disc. So there is no conductive path. There is an inner and an outer electrode (as in capacitor plate). He demonstrates induction when spinning the apparatus. Electromagnetic induction is defined as the creation of a voltage (differential) caused by a changing EM field. Current is not needed. Current will flow as a result of the induced or generated voltage if there is a conductive path (circuit) for such to ocurr.

And electricity does not always take the shortest path. Look at lightning. It is not straight. It zig-zags all over the place. And even in circuits of parallel resistors, electricity (current) doesn't flow in only the resistor with the shortest path. It divides and flows through all the parallel resistors according to the ohmic values.

Take another look at part 2. He flies pretty fast. But he does in fact tell us that the spinning capacitor with the coil is a homopolar generator. I'm amazed that it is able to detect absolute motion. I guess from the universe perspective, absolute motion is pretty abstract, to say the least.

Regards,

bi
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  #38  
Old 10-05-2017, 04:12 PM
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Hi Ufo,

It's not all about the conductive path. You seem to disregard part 2 when he goes to the capacitor. Don't. It it a homopolar generator using a dialectic (insulator) as the disc. So there is no conductive path. There is an inner and an outer electrode (as in capacitor plate). He demonstrates induction when spinning the apparatus. Electromagnetic induction is defined as the creation of a voltage (differential) caused by a changing EM field. Current is not needed. Current will flow as a result of the induced or generated voltage if there is a conductive path (circuit) for such to ocurr.
Hi Bistander,

Was that you above?...it seems post have a lot of typos...not typical of you.

Well, because of your "always controversy" it does seems as it is you......maybe writing from a small cell with reduced keyboard.

Getting back to topic...yes, I did watch second video and particularly the fact that he jumps into Capacitance is what bothered me about it.

He obviously uses TWO VERTICAL metal plates instead of just ONE HORIZONTAL plate like in the disc, and that changes COMPLETELY the configuration of original machine.

Particularly I would have REALLY loved if he would have presented FIRST, as a "non concluded continuation from part 1" before moving to a different set...to where only brushes spin while disc and magnet are static. Now this would have shown all of Us a completely different horizon...

Now, if you get Two Plates instead of one...as a capacitor is, then same deal applies as single disc, but fragmented in two metal parts, where the dielectric in between (and btw, accepted that no direct conductive path exhibited here) will do its job as per capacitors properties must be done...Now going in detail here, the outer plate would get a different charge than the inner plate, generating a differential (or Voltage) between them, other words, "A Plus and a Minus" or the exact same thing that occurs when rotating disc CW, and brushes "adopt" a specific and repeatable V polarity according to their outer-inner positioning...capisci?


Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
And electricity does not always take the shortest path. Look at lightning. It is not straight. It zig-zags all over the place. And even in circuits of parallel resistors, electricity (current) doesn't flow in only the resistor with the shortest path. It divides and flows through all the parallel resistors according to the ohmic values.

Take another look at part 2. He flies pretty fast. But he does in fact tell us that the spinning capacitor with the coil is a homopolar generator. I'm amazed that it is able to detect absolute motion. I guess from the universe perspective, absolute motion is pretty abstract, to say the least.

Regards,

bi
Ok, ok...not always "applies" taking the shortest path (understand the lower resistance path as well, which not necessarily relates to shortest physical path)...but. I am not gonna argue with you on that one.

I liked the 2nd video...but he does gets away from the OEM Machine from Faraday, to the point USPTO granted a patent to this invention with capacitance, meaning they (USPTO Examiners) considered a completely different machine than the Homopolar Generator where no conflicts of interest should raise between both machines.


Regards


Ufopolitics
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  #39  
Old 10-05-2017, 04:33 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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?

One typo which I corrected. For the heck of it, where are others?

You just don't see the rotating capacitor which he demonstrates and says is a homopolar generator as a homopolar generator. But it is. And the patent hardly necessarily rules that out. One would have to study the claims, which I might do, someday.

bi
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Old 10-05-2017, 04:41 PM
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Brushes vs plates

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Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
...

He obviously uses TWO VERTICAL metal plates instead of just ONE HORIZONTAL plate like in the disc, and that changes COMPLETELY the configuration of original machine.

...
Ufo,

Consider the 2 vertical cylinders as the 2 brushes and the dielectric between the cylinders as the disc.

OK dielectric vs dialectric. Wonder why my spell check didn't pick that up in first post. Nothing's perfect.

bi
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  #41  
Old 10-05-2017, 05:23 PM
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Ufo,

Consider the 2 vertical cylinders as the 2 brushes and the dielectric between the cylinders as the disc.
Bistander,

See I just can't consider that option as being the same deal, First, the disc is made of a conductive metal, in this case copper, while dielectric is a non conductive material, an insulator.

A Capacitor is an open charge storage, where it exhibits polarity at each plate, and only closed whenever applied by an External circuit like simply adding a load to it, closing the electric path.

The Copper Disc and the two brushes establish a completely different scenario on this machine just because the electric flow is continuous during operation, and when rotating the disc while brushes are static We are changing or better expressed "REPLACING" that Conductive Path to other portions of the disc where the Induction process will reset again and again to exhaust (output) a steady potential (EMF) as long as RPMs and direction of rotation are constant.

See it another way...The Two brushes are "drawing" or defining a Conductor within copper disc, but as they rotate is like brushing through a very thin "disc-toroidal coil", changing to different conductors that travel from out inwards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
OK dielectric vs dialectric. Wonder why my spell check didn't pick that up in first post. Nothing's perfect.

bi
Maybe you were thinking about Ken Wheeler's Theories again...and the Dielectric Field when you wrote it...


Take care got lot of work to do...


Regards


Ufopolitics
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  #42  
Old 10-05-2017, 05:42 PM
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@Bistander,

By the way, I had a couple of questions for you, which maybe not from this topic, but somehow related because it is about generators:

Say we have a running Generator and we took off its trip (reset) switch which normally opens whenever we overload it...so we have it direct output from generating coils to AC Outlets.

Then we get an amp meter (which shorts circuit out to measure amperes) and insert it on one of its outlets live and neutral wires...along with a Volt Meter in the same two points.

1-I know the farting machine would start to rapidly slow down while shaking...but then, on the electrical generator what would happen if we stay shorting out for a longer period of time?

The answer to above, I believe is that generator Output Coils would burn down, (that IF farting machine won't stall to a stop of course, if it stops is understood that induction will cease and nothing happens) since they carry the higher amperage.

2-The Amp Meter would show MAX AMPS or Surge Amps but only for a few seconds, and as ICE slows down amps would collapse as well, as V Meter will show exactly Zero Volts as soon as Amp Meter is connected...Am I correct here?

I would like to preserve this two questions plus your answers, and if it is necessary I will transfer them to the Figuera Thread.

Thanks in advance


Ufopolitics
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  #43  
Old 10-05-2017, 06:05 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Point missed

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Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
Bistander,

See I just can't consider that option as being the same deal, First, the disc is made of a conductive metal, in this case copper, while dielectric is a non conductive material, an insulator.

A Capacitor is an open charge storage, where it exhibits polarity at each plate, and only closed whenever applied by an External circuit like simply adding a load to it, closing the electric path.

The Copper Disc and the two brushes establish a completely different scenario on this machine just because the electric flow is continuous during operation, and when rotating the disc while brushes are static We are changing or better expressed "REPLACING" that Conductive Path to other portions of the disc where the Induction process will reset again and again to exhaust (output) a steady potential (EMF) as long as RPMs and direction of rotation are constant.

See it another way...The Two brushes are "drawing" or defining a Conductor within copper disc, but as they rotate is like brushing through a very thin "disc-toroidal coil", changing to different conductors that travel from out inwards.
Ufo,

You're missing the point. Current is not required for induction to occur. It doesn't matter if the disc is conductive. Take your trusty old AC generator. Remove loads and all connections from the main winding output terminals. It is what is called no-load or open-circuit. Now run it at rated speed and proper excitation. Put a high impedance voltmeter across the main winding open terminals. You can read full generated voltage, right? There is essentially zero current. Remove the voltmeter. There is now absolutely zero current and the voltage is still there. With zero current in the coils, or windings (or in the disc for the homopolar case), it doesn't matter what the resistance is. It can be very low as with thick copper or very high as with an insulator. You still have induction and still have the voltage across the armature (center and outer diameter in the homopolar case).

Part 2 demonstrates that it is not all about the conductive path between the brushes. So we disagree. Imagine that!

Enough, I guess. Regards.

bi
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  #44  
Old 10-05-2017, 06:58 PM
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Ufo,

You're missing the point. Current is not required for induction to occur. It doesn't matter if the disc is conductive. Take your trusty old AC generator. Remove loads and all connections from the main winding output terminals. It is what is called no-load or open-circuit. Now run it at rated speed and proper excitation. Put a high impedance voltmeter across the main winding open terminals. You can read full generated voltage, right? There is essentially zero current. Remove the voltmeter. There is now absolutely zero current and the voltage is still there. With zero current in the coils, or windings (or in the disc for the homopolar case), it doesn't matter what the resistance is. It can be very low as with thick copper or very high as with an insulator. You still have induction and still have the voltage across the armature (center and outer diameter in the homopolar case).

Part 2 demonstrates that it is not all about the conductive path between the brushes. So we disagree. Imagine that!

Enough, I guess. Regards.

bi
Bistander,

I really have no idea why you keep bringing Voltage versus Current in our conversation here, if you look at my post (the one you quoted) I have not mention current there at all.

I know all about you are writing above...but read and answer my last post before this one...then we will engage in V versus A.

For Current to "exist" (exist as to be able to READ it) we must CLOSE circuit from output coils terminals with a load or simply a short by an Amp Meter, while Voltage does not require a closed circuit...basic electricity friend, and I know you know it better than me...


Regards


Ufopolitics

EDIT: But I know what you meant...V presence at terminals is just enough to demonstrate Induction...not to me though...I need to know the kind of power we are getting.
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  #45  
Old 10-05-2017, 07:11 PM
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Talking about Current now...

Bistander,

Now related to currAnt (Paraphrasing MM remember? hahaha) and the Homopolar Machine(s)?

Did you know that it was known by its very HIGH Amperage and lower Voltages?

Not only the Faraday OEM, but all that raised based on that same principle going all the way to the N-Machine from DePalma.

Take care


Ufopolitics
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Old 10-05-2017, 09:50 PM
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Conductive path

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Bistander,

I really have no idea why you keep bringing Voltage versus Current in our conversation here, if you look at my post (the one you quoted) I have not mention current there at all.

...
Ufo,

It is not current I'm calling you on, it is your statement that it is all about the conductive path (between brushes on the homopolar armature disc). It is not. Video part 2 demonstrates this. You are taking the easy way out believing that and missing the really interesting behavior. But believe what you want.

bi
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Old 10-06-2017, 12:28 PM
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Sorry to but in.

Is the non conducting part of the disk polarized?

Concerning trying to take measurements on what might be considered the non conducting part of the disk, of an operational machine, at any given point of time might have been problematic. If the measuring device were to draw any current at all no matter how small, they may have considered that they were creating a conductive pathway, therefore creating another conductor, therefore causing induction to occur at that part of the disk, when before it was not occurring. What a dilemma.

Is there some doubt now when before there might have been none? Can this paradox be directly transposed over to all electrical generators?

Was this the reason for the capacitor experiment? What a head scratcher.

It reminds me of Einstein and Borg, Einstein said you could measure or analyze certain quantum phenomena without changing it, and Borg said you couldn't.

P.S. When I said that that I considered the non conducting parts of the disk not particularly relevant, I didn't mean they were not necessary. That I don't know.

Edit///////////
Got it wrong again
If the conductive path between the brushes makes up the conductor then scenario where magnet and brushes stay still and the plate rotates, there would be no induction, but there is.

Edit2/////////
More apologies again
Thats two penalties in one game, time for me to hit the showers, but I will be following with interest.
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Old 10-06-2017, 01:18 PM
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Ufo,

It is not current I'm calling you on, it is your statement that it is all about the conductive path (between brushes on the homopolar armature disc). It is not. Video part 2 demonstrates this. You are taking the easy way out believing that and missing the really interesting behavior. But believe what you want.

bi
Hello Bistander,

So, according to your above conclusions...it is NOT about the DIRECT conductive path between the two brushes...right so far?

Then you are more likely to incline towards second video with capacitor, or Two Metal Ring Cylinders, one on the Inner part as the other ring cylinder on the outer end with an insulator (dielectric) in between...which shows a voltage gain at both plates when the whole thing is rotated...

What I am trying to do...is to interpret your way to see the actual circuit when we have the FULL Copper DISC back as the original machine is configured.

Therefore, I believe you are seeing on the FULL DISC TWO RINGS, one inner and other on the outer circumference as a trace that BOTH BRUSHES leave on the copper disc riding areas when rotating. This way to imagine the circuit on the full copper Disc is the closest one to the Capacitor arrangement on the 2nd video.

And please do not take me wrong...I am just trying to visualize what you are inclined towards based on your acquired knowledge...as I could be wrong as well...

Concluding that no matter who's wrong or who's right...it will ALL BE DONE in order to bring LIGHT to this whole enigma...


Regards


Ufopolitics
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Old 10-06-2017, 02:17 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Circuit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
...

What I am trying to do...is to interpret your way to see the actual circuit when we have the FULL Copper DISC back as the original machine is configured.

Therefore, I believe you are seeing on the FULL DISC TWO RINGS, one inner and other on the outer circumference as a trace that BOTH BRUSHES leave on the copper disc riding areas when rotating. This way to imagine the circuit on the full copper Disc is the closest one to the Capacitor arrangement on the 2nd video.
Hi Ufo,

Well, kind of. But what I believe is demonstrated is that a "circuit" is not necessary for induction to take place. Would not there be an induced voltage between the inner and outer diameters of the disc even if you removed the brushes completely?

bi
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Old 10-06-2017, 02:30 PM
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Only MORE Experimenting will get Us to the TRUTH...

Hello,

There is ONLY ONE WAY to approach to the TRUTH...and that is through EXPERIMENTING and TESTING.

I am personally too busy to start another build at this time...but I will propose some configurations to be tested:

1- Build an Iron Ring Electromagnet, with fine wire in order that it could generate a field without getting too hot, nor spending too much energy. This coil does NOT need to rotate, since we all know by now...that field does not move nor induces nada when rotating magnet.

2-Build a Full Copper Disc of the same diameter as Ring electromagnet, make it with easy R&I center bolted on bushing to shaft and bearings, and motor to spin it.

3- Build same diameter Copper Disc BUT just having two actual rings of copper, one outer, one inner with a gaped insulation between both rings where BRUSHES will ride on them both. This two rings could be easily build on a fiberglass base which bolts on to same bushing-shaft set as FULL Disc does.

Now simply maintain same speed (RPM's) for both discs tests, as supplying EXACTLY the same Voltage and Current to electromagnet, while scoping Max V Output from brushes.

Results, Judgement and following development:

1-If Full Disc generates HIGHER Voltage than Two Rings Disc with insulation between, then we know it is ALL ABOUT the direct conductive path between brushes what causes HIGHER Induction. Then we could ADD more brushes and set them in series ALL around FULL DISC, having the two end as the terminals to scope, this should increase output, since we will have several more conductive paths in series.

2-If the opposite takes place, meaning, Two Ring Disc produces Higher V than Full Disc...then it is ALL ABOUT CONCENTRIC RINGS that of course will be MUCH BIGGER Induced V if we have METAL CYLINDERS that run through whole electromagnet height INSTEAD OF FLAT RINGS.

3- Now, if BOTH RESULTS ARE EQUAL, IDENTICAL (Possibility which I strongly DOUBT), then we are back to the the start...and definitively need to keep going deeper into more possibilities and different set up.


This is just a step forward to start disguising Machine "Modum Operandi"...


Regards


Ufopolitics
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Old 10-06-2017, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Hi Ufo,

Well, kind of.
Great Bistander!!!...So, means my analysis related to your interpretation was pretty good right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
But what I believe is demonstrated is that a "circuit" is not necessary for induction to take place.
Of course a circuit would be necessary IF, we are planning to take this whole principle into a REAL MACHINE DEVELOPMENT, where its Output would be completely about USABLE ENERGY!!

Prior you set my Home Generator example, not loaded and still reading a voltage straight off output coils...right?...Now tell me ...What good is this voltage if it is NOT PUT INTO A LOAD TEST then reading amperage?

So here we should ask ourselves...is it a STRONG INDUCTION generated here?...or is it just another little power TOY to play silly games with?

Beyond...We all know it is NOT just another toy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Would not there be an induced voltage between the inner and outer diameters of the disc even if you removed the brushes completely?

bi
Of course there would be induced V without brushes!!, brushes are only the PICKUP TRANSPORT which moves it out of the Machine, allowing Us to read it.

Now, think about this...We all know that a small voltage or even a higher one, once that it is SHORTED OUT, between BOTH pick up points (Brushes on this case), will read a BIG ZERO in any scope or meter...THEREFORE, for either of our interpretations about a FULL COPPER DISC, in BOTH CASES, we are shorting brushes or pick up points, and STILL We are getting an output of V.

The above FACT, only bring Us to two conclusions:

1-We are BOTH completely wrong to BOTH interpretations, and obviously there is a "Third Possibility" which we are both not seen at all.

2-Or, simply the Output is SO MUCH HIGHER than we all think, in order that it can "afford" to generate a Voltage reading EVEN AT A FULL SHORT.
(And here let me add some experience acquired on my latest development...and that I have mentioned to you on the Figuera test:
Whenever there is VERY HIGH AMPERAGE generated, no matter if shorted out terminals, STILL, there would be a Positive Voltage shown and NOT dropping to ZERO)


If the second one (#2) holds true (which I honestly believe it is so, just based on DePalma N-Machine)...then it is just a matter to find the way it works to have the Fountain of Higher Energy found and built.


Regards



Ufopolitics
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Old 10-06-2017, 04:40 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Faraday disc

Hi Ufo,

TOY? Inertial guidance system? Pretty much the same thing, right?

As you mentioned in a previous post, the homopolar dynamos beyond the "toy", are noted for very high current output at low voltage. But here we find the same basic structure used for an important application where there is essentially zero current and only the induction is relevant. This looks like it is only possible due to the paradox, or I guess the phenomena surrounding the paradox. If understood well, it would likely shed insight as to the true nature of EM fields.

bi
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Old 10-07-2017, 01:44 AM
bistander bistander is online now
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Interesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
Hello,

There is ONLY ONE WAY to approach to the TRUTH...and that is through EXPERIMENTING and TESTING.

I am personally too busy to start another build at this time...but I will propose some configurations to be tested:

1- Build an Iron Ring Electromagnet, with fine wire in order that it could generate a field without getting too hot, nor spending too much energy. This coil does NOT need to rotate, since we all know by now...that field does not move nor induces nada when rotating magnet.

2-Build a Full Copper Disc of the same diameter as Ring electromagnet, make it with easy R&I center bolted on bushing to shaft and bearings, and motor to spin it.

3- Build same diameter Copper Disc BUT just having two actual rings of copper, one outer, one inner with a gaped insulation between both rings where BRUSHES will ride on them both. This two rings could be easily build on a fiberglass base which bolts on to same bushing-shaft set as FULL Disc does.

Now simply maintain same speed (RPM's) for both discs tests, as supplying EXACTLY the same Voltage and Current to electromagnet, while scoping Max V Output from brushes.

Results, Judgement and following development:

1-If Full Disc generates HIGHER Voltage than Two Rings Disc with insulation between, then we know it is ALL ABOUT the direct conductive path between brushes what causes HIGHER Induction. Then we could ADD more brushes and set them in series ALL around FULL DISC, having the two end as the terminals to scope, this should increase output, since we will have several more conductive paths in series.

2-If the opposite takes place, meaning, Two Ring Disc produces Higher V than Full Disc...then it is ALL ABOUT CONCENTRIC RINGS that of course will be MUCH BIGGER Induced V if we have METAL CYLINDERS that run through whole electromagnet height INSTEAD OF FLAT RINGS.

3- Now, if BOTH RESULTS ARE EQUAL, IDENTICAL (Possibility which I strongly DOUBT), then we are back to the the start...and definitively need to keep going deeper into more possibilities and different set up.


This is just a step forward to start disguising Machine "Modum Operandi"...


Regards


Ufopolitics
Hi Ufo,

Yes, you can run these tests, someday. But what really is of interest to me is the last test shown in the part 2 of that video. Where he has the entire apparatus rotating together. Relating back to the copper disc version, it would be the magnet, the disc and the stator (brushes, holders, wires and even the instruments) all rotating together at the same speed. He shows a plot, quickly, but from what I can tell, has the tests points in a linear increase of voltage to RPM. The only link between the rotating assembly and the lab is the turntable which rotates it and a Bluetooth data signal. Makes the observer irrelevant to the experiment, doesn't it?

Just a curiosity for those looking for energy, I guess.

bi
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Old 10-07-2017, 10:03 PM
Iamnuts Iamnuts is offline
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Is there anything out there like a pulsar or magnetar that could give
us a clue?
John.
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Old 10-08-2017, 06:18 AM
bistander bistander is online now
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Maybe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamnuts View Post
Is there anything out there like a pulsar or magnetar that could give
us a clue?
John.
RUnuts,

Just kidding, Iamnuts. Maybe. I don't know much about the two things you mention. But got me thinking about big things. What about our planet. Rotating. Yes. Magnetic field. Yes. Potential difference at various radii. Yes. Due to induction. Maybe.

I always wondered about the established explanation of charges and lightning. Could our planetary dynamo be inducing atmospheric voltage?

What'd you think?

bi
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Old 10-08-2017, 09:09 AM
lotec lotec is offline
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Einstein or Maxwell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
Hello,

There is ONLY ONE WAY to approach to the TRUTH...and that is through EXPERIMENTING and TESTING.

I am personally too busy to start another build at this time...but I will propose some configurations to be tested:

1- Build an Iron Ring Electromagnet, with fine wire in order that it could generate a field without getting too hot, nor spending too much energy. This coil does NOT need to rotate, since we all know by now...that field does not move nor induces nada when rotating magnet.

2-Build a Full Copper Disc of the same diameter as Ring electromagnet, make it with easy R&I center bolted on bushing to shaft and bearings, and motor to spin it.

3- Build same diameter Copper Disc BUT just having two actual rings of copper, one outer, one inner with a gaped insulation between both rings where BRUSHES will ride on them both. This two rings could be easily build on a fiberglass base which bolts on to same bushing-shaft set as FULL Disc does.

Now simply maintain same speed (RPM's) for both discs tests, as supplying EXACTLY the same Voltage and Current to electromagnet, while scoping Max V Output from brushes.

Results, Judgement and following development:

1-If Full Disc generates HIGHER Voltage than Two Rings Disc with insulation between, then we know it is ALL ABOUT the direct conductive path between brushes what causes HIGHER Induction. Then we could ADD more brushes and set them in series ALL around FULL DISC, having the two end as the terminals to scope, this should increase output, since we will have several more conductive paths in series.

2-If the opposite takes place, meaning, Two Ring Disc produces Higher V than Full Disc...then it is ALL ABOUT CONCENTRIC RINGS that of course will be MUCH BIGGER Induced V if we have METAL CYLINDERS that run through whole electromagnet height INSTEAD OF FLAT RINGS.

3- Now, if BOTH RESULTS ARE EQUAL, IDENTICAL (Possibility which I strongly DOUBT), then we are back to the the start...and definitively need to keep going deeper into more possibilities and different set up.


This is just a step forward to start disguising Machine "Modum Operandi"...


Regards


Ufopolitics

Hi
Back from the sin bin.

Personally I tend to hold to the view of Maxwell and the like minded, and I believe that the ether has sufficient viscosity to hold the lines of force in place, give or take some minute skidding or loss of traction. I have attached a drawing of a simple apparatus that in my mind might help clear this up.

I am not really sure what you are looking for. As far as I can tell, by your observational and logical skills, you have introduced into the discussion the existence of a more virtual conductor which has the ability to move or not move independently of the disk on certain occasions, and by doing so you have also identified the reason for why the views of Einstein and Maxwell were able to simultaneously co-exist, (it seems that type of thing might not be limited to just the quantum realms) and at face value satisfied the statement," conductor and magnets need not move ". Because the conductor, as it is more commonly apprehended, doesn't necessarily have to.

Yet still you are not satisfied, I like your style. I think in the Kennard document, it mentioned that the center element of the capacitor is grounded with a 10 or 100 KOhm resister. Maybe that changes things a bit, I don't know.

Conspiracy of light has a web site with lots of stuff, from Maxwell, Lorrents, and others. I'm not sure if I should post a link because, in the process of downloading the PDF, I was fully owned (Which wouldn't be that hard because I'm not that savy that way) and they were quite happy for me to know that. There could be third parties sniffing around.

The question was mainly rhetorical and I don't expect you to reply unless you want to, or think that I am still clinging to less helpful views, I have already taken up too much of your time already, but your patients has helped me see things in a different light, and probably given builders something to think about, especially ones that like to improvise.

These are just my opinions, and they could be quite floored, but I try to remain open to other points of view.

Thanks, Regards and cheers.

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Old 10-09-2017, 01:58 PM
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Introducing the "Third Ring"...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lotec View Post
Hi
Back from the sin bin.

Personally I tend to hold to the view of Maxwell and the like minded, and I believe that the ether has sufficient viscosity to hold the lines of force in place, give or take some minute skidding or loss of traction. I have attached a drawing of a simple apparatus that in my mind might help clear this up.
Hello Lotec,

Yes, I am also more into the Maxwellian approach. Maxwell goes very deep into his analysis about molecular and even atomic spins taking place within the Coil or simply, the conductor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lotec View Post
I am not really sure what you are looking for. As far as I can tell, by your observational and logical skills, you have introduced into the discussion the existence of a more virtual conductor which has the ability to move or not move independently of the disk on certain occasions, and by doing so you have also identified the reason for why the views of Einstein and Maxwell were able to simultaneously co-exist, (it seems that type of thing might not be limited to just the quantum realms) and at face value satisfied the statement," conductor and magnets need not move ". Because the conductor, as it is more commonly apprehended, doesn't necessarily have to.
Lotec, I am looking for the right and BASIC motive of induction on this machine, and the way I see it possible is by discarding all wrong events which we all think are making it happen.

Actually -at this point- I am beyond moving any of the physical components, where by just sending a SPECIFIC SIGNAL to the STATIC Exciter Coil, it generates a very robust Induction on a Secondary or Secondaries also STATIC.

Now, this will definitively prove -beyond any doubts- that NO PHYSICAL BODIES need to be moved nor Rotated in order to achieve EM Induction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lotec View Post
Yet still you are not satisfied, I like your style. I think in the Kennard document, it mentioned that the center element of the capacitor is grounded with a 10 or 100 KOhm resister. Maybe that changes things a bit, I don't know.

Conspiracy of light has a web site with lots of stuff, from Maxwell, Lorrents, and others. I'm not sure if I should post a link because, in the process of downloading the PDF, I was fully owned (Which wouldn't be that hard because I'm not that savy that way) and they were quite happy for me to know that. There could be third parties sniffing around.

The question was mainly rhetorical and I don't expect you to reply unless you want to, or think that I am still clinging to less helpful views, I have already taken up too much of your time already, but your patients has helped me see things in a different light, and probably given builders something to think about, especially ones that like to improvise.

These are just my opinions, and they could be quite floored, but I try to remain open to other points of view.

Thanks, Regards and cheers.

Thanks, I am just using the typical Scientific approach of "discarding of non relevant events" or "filter" in order to reach the essence or main cause.

As per your diagram, you are rotating both magnets (above-below) while the "U" shape conductor is static, correct?.

The way I see your above test is that it STILL brings the question as "What part of conductor is generating?"...Is it the Horizontal or the Vertical?...or Are both generating?

Bottom line, it does not discard possibilities, but have them all as "inclusive".

When we rotate Disc while two brushes are static, disc geometry have very small height, so it would be disregarded as any vertical conducting paths, then we move into only TWO POSSIBILITIES:

1- Two Continuous Inner-Outer Rings swept and DEFINED by the Two Inner-Outer Brushes.

2- A Single but DYNAMIC Conducting Path directly (LINEARLY) established between both brushes.

I wrote Dynamic, since whether Disc is static and just brushes rotate, or the opposite, Brushes are always sweeping different paths on the metal disc. Now, let's picture a Third Ring on this Interpretation, comprehending the series of conductive paths between both brushes...And so here we only have the TIME Parameter VARIATION dictated by Brushes positioning, which is CHANGING constantly with rotation of either Disc or Brushes.

Now, Bistander expresses there is NO NEED to be "A CONDUCTIVE CIRCUIT" or Path for Induction to take place...but again, what kind of induction we all could get without any given CONDUCTING CIRCUIT?

Of course we get induction without a CLOSED PATH circuit, but what kind of AMPERAGE can this induction deliver??!!

ABSOLUTELY NONE, ZERO.

And so, repeating the MAIN ATTRIBUTE (OR PROPERTY) of this Machine and ALL its derivatives...it is ALL ABOUT ITS CONSIDERABLY HUGE AMPERAGE!!

Voltage without amperage means absolutely nada (Can't believe am the one saying this now)...it is just like smoke which wind clears out in seconds.

Would like to see what kind of amperage the second video experiment as a capacitor should deliver versus the previous copper disc?

Concluding that the MAIN and MORE IMPORTANT ASPECT of this Machine, relates to the enormous amount of current density or AMPERAGE flow it carries when it rotates, and so, I believe there is no need to remind everyone that in order for Amperage to EXIST, there ALWAYS must be a CLOSED CIRCUIT, either straight (short circuit) or the one provided whenever we LOAD a Generator.

And so, NOT considering such IMPORTANT ASPECT that relates specifically to this Type of Machines, to start observing small voltages in OPEN CIRCUITS or Open Capacitor Plates is completely deviating our research from the MAIN AND MORE IMPORTANT FACT that we are all looking for.


Regards


Ufopolitics
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Old 10-10-2017, 09:02 AM
lotec lotec is offline
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Hi Ufopolitcs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
Yes, I am also more into the Maxwellian approach. Maxwell goes very deep into his analysis about molecular and even atomic spins taking place within the Coil or simply, the conductor.
I'd love to get my eyes on something like that. For someone like me that sounds like a difficult read and would take alot of digesting, but it would be worth it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
As per your diagram, you are rotating both magnets (above-below) while the "U" shape conductor is static, correct?.
No and sort of respectively. It was really just intended to remove the complications caused by the disk and brushes and replace them with a horizontal wire or bar. Then to be used in three ways, One for each possible scenario. 1 Magnet rotates while conductor is stationary. 2 Conductor rotates while magnets are stationary. 3 Both rotate together.

About the diagram I posted, there are a few things I should clear up about that so that it is seen in the context that it was intended.
I didn't make the diagram myself, I pinched it off a PDF, that I had downloaded previously. It seems that the authors of the PDF, were a very well educated and well funded group of individuals, who were attempting to make a brush-less, simplified, homo-polar generator. Meaning that the magnets were intended to spin while the horizontal conductor remains stationary. The device itself had quite a different geometry, but that diagram was submitted along with others, to give a general idea of what thay were doing.

Although they are doing the right thing for science, by reporting a negative result, it seems that they were at a loss when trying to explain the negative outcome. Well, at least within the parameters of the Einsteinian paradigm. I'm not sure if it was because they didn't want to upset the cash cow, and the rest of the scientific community or whether they simply weren't aware of an alternative view regarding flux rotation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
The way I see your above test is that it STILL brings the question as "What part of conductor is generating?"...Is it the Horizontal or the Vertical?...or Are both generating?
Bottom line, it does not discard possibilities, but have them all as "inclusive".
When we rotate Disc while two brushes are static, disc geometry have very small height, so it would be disregarded as any vertical conducting paths, then we move into only TWO POSSIBILITIES:

1- Two Continuous Inner-Outer Rings swept and DEFINED by the Two Inner-Outer Brushes.

2- A Single but DYNAMIC Conducting Path directly (LINEARLY) established between both brushes.

I wrote Dynamic, since whether Disc is static and just brushes rotate, or the opposite, Brushes are always sweeping different paths on the metal disc. Now, let's picture a Third Ring on this Interpretation, comprehending the series of conductive paths between both brushes...And so here we only have the TIME Parameter VARIATION dictated by Brushes positioning, which is CHANGING constantly with rotation of either Disc or Brushes.
Yes, I agree with that, you want to be very thorough. That is understandable. To some extent this had occurred to the authors. My guess is because of the negative result, (seemingly unexplained), they had to come up with something if they were to get more funding, so they came up with an in depth analysis of everything involved, from minutely analyzing Maxwells equations. to the such and such crystalline room temperature superconductor. Along the way they discussed the effectiveness of the mu-metal magnetic shielding, and the effects that could have had on what they would have considered to be the rotating magnetic field. I didn't see any mention of the possibility of high current eddies inducted into the vertical parts of the conductor either, maybe they thought the probability of that was so low it wasn't worth mentioning, or it didn't occur to them.

The picture I had posted wasn't really intended to include those levels of complication, so by rights, I should have opened it in paintbox or something first, and rubbed out stuff like the direction of magnet spin, the polarity of intended inducted currents, and the mu-metal shielding and so on. So I'm glad you pointed that out. Thanks. It was really just intended to remove the complications caused by the disk and brushes that led to the dual interpretation of what is happening with the magnetic field, and help add weight to one perception or the other.

Agreed the diagram as I intended it, doesn't take into account the points you have raised either. It wasn't intended to be a comprehensive tool for the study EM induction but more of an attempt to force one party or the other to come up with more and more creative objections.

Now I am starting to see the need for why they had to go to open circuit analysis. The pioneers had to be very meticulous and you have adopted that attitude as well. I think that is to be commended.

I don't think this is the response you might have wanted, or that you will find it particularly satisfying, but as for the parts of your post that I haven't commented on, it is not because I don't agree with them or don't acknowledge them, I do !!! , and think they could turn out to be extremely consequential, but the last few days has taught me that it is not good for me to post the first thing that just pops into my head, just for the sake of it.

Thanks again,
Regards,
Wil
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Old 10-10-2017, 11:53 AM
bistander bistander is online now
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Thanks lotec for the elaboration.

bi
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Old 10-10-2017, 12:57 PM
lotec lotec is offline
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Your welcome. and thanks for reading it., but please don't take the rantings of an old truckee too seriously.

Regards
Wil
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