Energetic Forum  
Facebook Twitter Google+ Pinterest LinkedIn Delicious Digg Reddit WordPress StumbleUpon Tumblr Translate Addthis Aaron Murakami YouTube ONLY 13% OF SEATS AVAILABLE!!!*** 2017 ENERGY CONFERENCE ***


* NEW * BEDINI RPX BOOK & DVD SET: BEDINI RPX


Go Back   Energetic Forum > >
   

Renewable Energy Discussion on various alternative energy, renewable energy, & free energy technologies. Also any discussion about the environment, global warming, and other related topics are welcome here.

Bedini RPX Sideband Generator
Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #31  
Old 05-01-2017, 03:22 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,226
Roller Thrust Bearing

This kind bearing is a critical part of this "Spinning Hull: Coanda Craft design. The centrifugal fan would attach to the top ring and the spinning hull to the bottom:
__________________
 

Last edited by Allen Burgess; 05-18-2017 at 03:19 PM.
Reply With Quote

Download SOLAR SECRETS by Peter Lindemann
Free - Get it now: Solar Secrets

  #32  
Old 05-01-2017, 03:42 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,226
Internal frame

This "Spinning Hull" craft is a unique tested design that rides on the rollor thrust bearing pictured above, and is held in place by an internal frame as pictured below:

The magnet rotor needs to spin counter rotationally to the spinning hull.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Internal Frame (2).jpg (71.7 KB, 10 views)
__________________
 

Last edited by Allen Burgess; 05-01-2017 at 03:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 05-01-2017, 08:19 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,226
Spinning hull.

@Gambeir,

I had the compressed air hood attached to the roof of the Coanda Hull with throat depressor struts. The air entered through a hole in the side of the cup, swirled around and made it's way out through the a 1/4" lip underneath. It didn't rise, so I increased the air pressure and the struts broke. The Hull itself began to spin under the helmet, then it sped up and shot up toward the ceiling with great velocity, knocking the gantry over with the precession force off to one side.

This is a very powerful airfoil effect, similar to the Leonardo Da Vinci helicopter pictured below:

The counter rotating magnet rotor is a critical part of the "Inertial Stability" design. This gives us a chance to run the novel wave reflection pulse recovery coils on lightweight capacitors alone, eliminating the need for a heavy battery. The craft would need a couple of charging electrodes extending through the base to connect a battery to for the initial capacitor boost. The roller thrust bearing should ideally be ceramic like the one pictured below on the right, the costliest part of the package:.

What are your thoughts on this concept?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Da Vinci Helocopter.jpg (252.4 KB, 7 views)
__________________
 

Last edited by Allen Burgess; 05-07-2017 at 01:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 05-01-2017, 09:18 PM
Gambeir's Avatar
Gambeir Gambeir is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Peoples republic of Washington
Posts: 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Burgess View Post
@Gambeir,


Firstly, I want to thank you for all the updated links. I wasn't aware of JLN's Plasma control advance.

I'm trying to design a toy from the dollar store, based on a paper mache hull formed over a blow up balloon.

The ducted fan looks great compared to the centrifugal fan. I wonder how come no one's ever actually built one?

This ducted fan looks great, but all we need are two thousand Japanese engineers, not a ten dollar swap off ebay!

The outer Hull of my "Coanda Craft" has to be free to spin. I discovered this effect while experimenting with a compressed air vortex helmut made from a PVC end cap. You pointed out that the funneled vortex from the centrifugal fan would not spiral down around the Hull. You're correct. I didn't go into this effect at any great length, but I can assure you that it worked fantastic.

This is an entirely new undemonstrated effect that I stumbled upon accidently through bench test experimentation. The "Spinning Hull" itself acts as a giant propeller. Only the skin needs to spin! This is why the "Spin Hull Coanda Craft" needs an internal counter rotating mass.
First of all, I really like what you're doing.

I was trying to not come across like a self inflating cow. Oddly, I hadn't thought that you might be employing a spinning outer hull. In truth I had to think about this briefly, and yes you're quite right that aerodynamically a boundary layer of air, which is indeed going to flow along the convex surface as proposed, is the Coanda Effect defined. I further consulted some information on disk aerodynamics. A frisbee is an axisymmetric wing, so is a rocket tube, and a torpedo is another form of axisymmetic body.

Very interesting to think about this and aerodynamic relationships which involve a self spinning axisymmetic body.



Now I'm excited that you've also come to the idea of using paper mache. I've been working with a self created formula, so it's not wheat paste like normal paper mache. Anyways, this is exactly the same idea I'm using on a number of ding around projects. Using paper mache to make the hull of the saucer is a brillant idea. The connective anther must be flowing because this is exactly what I'm thinking about doing to create a model of the the ARV.

An Inquiry in to the Alien Reproduction Vehicle

Revised
Here's what I would recommend. Use foam like the pink or blue house foam to create yourself a form you want. Begin by using some cardboard to create a circle and which is about the size you want your saucer. Then divide the circle in to parts. Say 3 or 4 parts. Now you have a base pattern for a mold, and which you can then use to lay the paper mache up on once you carve the shape out of foam. In this way you are making 3 or 4 parts that you link together later to complete the model, so you don't have to make an entire saucer mold. You only need to make a portion of it. Understand? This is why you divided the circle in to parts. The paper mache process easily links these parts together. This way you can then create the 3 or other parts and then link those together. You could do this to create a test model hull, or to create a complete saucer shape in order to further refine the saucer hull to use as a plug for a production mold.

I put in a couple attachments of the process I've used to make some model boat hulls. I can tell you that a very fine finish can be achieved, and which is hard and durable. It may actually be superior to fiberglass in some respects.

What I did is to use Tightbond III waterproof glue spread by hand/fingers on wet news print. You don't really need that much. Just a milky watery consistency will do fine. The main idea is to impregnate the paper with glue, and again you don't need that much. I just ran water in the kitchen sink, and then pushed the paper in for a few seconds, then removed it and laid it on the counter where I then used a squeeze bottle to run some lines on glue across the dripping wet paper, then using your fingers you work that around to impregnate the paper fibers.

I can tell you this works amazingly well, and not only that, but the materials are free, biologically safe and sane. About a 10 thousand % improvement over working with polyester or epoxy resins.

Once this drys you can sand it and then give it a diluted covering of glue to seal it. I did this on the boat hull in the attachment. I then went further and used lite weight spackling to fill and refine the smoothness, again I gave the hull another light covering over the areas which needed covering and then sanded the hull again to further refine the smoothness. Finally I gave it a coat of paint, allowed that to dry, then sanded and filled any imperfections with autobody glazing compound. This really is the final word in fine filling. Once that was all cured a final fine sanding was done and then a layer of paint, after which this was repeated a couple times to achieve a high gloss finish.

Now for a saucer I think you would maybe do something like I've described in order to create a plug for a fiberglass or epoxy mold, and so that you could use the paper mache like concept to produce ubber lightweight models, and with a consistency to them, which would be needed for a production environment. I've worked with composites in a production environment so I can offer advice in that area.

Balancing the hull is what is going to be important I think. Model Helicopters have refined this to a fine art. The rotor blades are considered as a plate in balancing them.

I think if you rejected the idea of using a bearing altogether and instead could see a kind of air cushion as the bearing itself, then eliminating the bearing would reduce weight, and cost. Not too sure it would make it simpler to create, but it would be a superior machine without bearings. This might seem odd to you but I think you could create a model which created it's own pressurized bearing hub. Another alternative might be the placement of several small wheels running inside a paper formed rail, essentially a bearing but without the potential for losing the bearings. On the other hand the bearing issue is just one begging for a creative solution and I think that could discussed further. Probably there's a good solution which will address the weight vers containment issue and which just needs to found by trial and error.


Something to think about.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 0508062212.jpg (288.2 KB, 18 views)
File Type: jpg 0508062214.jpg (299.1 KB, 19 views)
File Type: jpg 0508062210.jpg (311.5 KB, 17 views)
__________________
 

Last edited by Gambeir; 05-02-2017 at 04:08 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 05-01-2017, 11:10 PM
Gambeir's Avatar
Gambeir Gambeir is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Peoples republic of Washington
Posts: 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Burgess View Post
@Gambeir,

I had the compressed air hood attached to the roof of the Coanda Hull with throat depressor struts. The air entered through a hole in the side of the cup, swirled around and made it's way out through the a 1/4" lip underneath. It didn't rise, so I increased the air pressure and the struts broke. The Hull itself began to spin under the helmet, then it sped up and shot up toward the ceiling with great velocity, knocking the gantry over with the precession force off to one side.

This is a very powerful airfoil effect, similar to the Leonardo Da Vinci helicopter pictured below:

The counter rotating magnet rotor is a critical part of the "Inertial Stability" design. This gives us a chance to run the novel wave reflection pulse recovery coils on lightweight capacitors alone, eliminating the need for a heavy battery. The craft would need a couple of charging electrodes extending through the base to connect a battery to for the initial capacitor boost. The roller thrust bearing should ideally be ceramic like the one pictured below on the right, the costliest part of the package:.

What are your thoughts on this concept?
I think I wish I was there for that one. I think I know almost nothing about electronics. I think you have encountered something you're not supposed to know about. Officially I have to deny it's possible.

Personally I wish I could have been there to see that explosive demo.

Dang interesting is what it is.

So Now ...I went back re-read the thread. What I think is probably all wrong, but speculation would be that the saucer demonstrated the real potential for boundary layers as demonstrated in the Coanda Effect.

Reminds me of a Telsa Turbine quite frankly, but wait...there's more!

***Revised***

I'd have to speculate with this; that the ejected jet of air, and which is moving in cycloid pattern, is producing a powerful thrusting force: As the air is moving at high relative speeds, the induced flow exiting the edges of saucer form a tubular spiral column downwards. There is then a column of air of lower pressure inside the coanda jet flow, and which is flowing in a tube upwards, which means that there is a venturi effect on the inside relative to the surrounding outside, resulting in a lower pressure, which is then accelerating air in the opposite direction from the Coanda Induced Jet Stream. In Addition: Since there exists this downward spiraling of airflow, then a reactive force would create an upward flow in a counter rotation, and inside of which there is likely a pumping action of ions whose activities are now confined to moving in one plane, and which is vertical. Normally an ion molecule of air would have three axis of movement. What this means is a force multiplier. Not sure but think it's 3X.

None of that is taking in the effects of relative electric charge potentials which then have ancillary effects.


What you've done is to create something which appears to have the qualities of a tornado going on, and which may also involve electrical phenomena, besides pure aerodynamics. We also have the fact you've added another dimension with magnetic fields and electrical energy flows. Yea, this is alot like a tornado from what little I know.

Crazy fool, be careful....*Big Smile...BTW, I'm in the car and on my way over...text me.
__________________
 

Last edited by Gambeir; 05-02-2017 at 12:23 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 05-02-2017, 12:09 AM
Gambeir's Avatar
Gambeir Gambeir is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Peoples republic of Washington
Posts: 78
We know that electricity plays a large role in atmospheric phenomena, but how does it happen?

Paraphrased from an article in the Daily Plasma. Highly recommended source. https://andrewdhall.wordpress.com/20...1/#comment-357

Tornadoes – Cold, Dusty Plasma
Dust devils have terrific amounts of energy in them, with a measured vertical electric field gradient of 10,000 volts per meter: Assuming an average potential gradient of a tornado column three km long with the same potential gradient over the column would be a 30 million volt potential. A large dust devil measuring 300 ft across can lift about 15 tons of dust into the air in 30 minutes.


Tornadoes – Cold, Dusty Plasma
People who witness a tornado never forget. They may recall awe and beauty, or awe and terror, depending on their vantage point. Either way, they will be awed and it will haunt them forever.

What follows is an excerpt from a 1930 report by Mr. Will Keller of Greensburg, Kansas, eye witness to the inside of a tornado:

“Steadily the tornado came on, the end gradually rising above the ground. I could have stood there only a few seconds but so impressed was I with what was going on that it seemed a long time. At last the great shaggy end of the funnel hung directly overhead. Everything was as still as death. There was a strong gassy odor and it seemed that I could not breathe. There was a screaming, hissing sound coming directly from the end of the funnel. I looked up and to my astonishment I saw right up into the heart of the tornado.

There was a circular opening in the center of the funnel, about 50 or 100 feet in diameter, and extending straight upward for a distance of at least one half mile, as best I could judge under the circumstances. The walls of this opening were of rotating clouds and the whole was made brilliantly visible by constant flashes of lightning which zig-zagged from side to side. Had it not been for the lightning I could not have seen the opening, not any distance up into it anyway. Around the lower rim of the great vortex small tornadoes were constantly forming and breaking away. These looked like tails as they writhed their way around the end of the funnel. It was these that made the hissing noise.

I noticed that the direction of rotation of the great whirl was anticlockwise, but the small twisters rotated both ways – some one way and some another. The opening was entirely hollow except for something which I could not exactly make out, but suppose that it was a detached wind cloud. This thing was in the center and was moving up and down.”
https://andrewdhall.wordpress.com/20...1/#comment-357






Marklund convection - Everything Is Electric
????? ???????? 1
То€надо-2
“thermal motion” to the lessons of physics on the topic “Thermal phenomena”


I think this is the idea involved in the eye witness description of the pumping cloud formation seen inside the eye of a tornado.

https://i1.wp.com/900igr.net/datas/f...-dvizhenie.jpg
__________________
 

Last edited by Gambeir; 05-02-2017 at 12:15 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 05-02-2017, 11:44 AM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,226
Repulsine Saucer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gambeir View Post
I think I wish I was there for that one. I think I know almost nothing about electronics. I think you have encountered something you're not supposed to know about. Officially I have to deny it's possible.

Personally I wish I could have been there to see that explosive demo.

Dang interesting is what it is.

So Now ...I went back re-read the thread. What I think is probably all wrong, but speculation would be that the saucer demonstrated the real potential for boundary layers as demonstrated in the Coanda Effect.

Reminds me of a Telsa Turbine quite frankly, but wait...there's more!

***Revised***

I'd have to speculate with this; that the ejected jet of air, and which is moving in cycloid pattern, is producing a powerful thrusting force: As the air is moving at high relative speeds, the induced flow exiting the edges of saucer form a tubular spiral column downwards. There is then a column of air of lower pressure inside the coanda jet flow, and which is flowing in a tube upwards, which means that there is a venturi effect on the inside relative to the surrounding outside, resulting in a lower pressure, which is then accelerating air in the opposite direction from the Coanda Induced Jet Stream. In Addition: Since there exists this downward spiraling of airflow, then a reactive force would create an upward flow in a counter rotation, and inside of which there is likely a pumping action of ions whose activities are now confined to moving in one plane, and which is vertical. Normally an ion molecule of air would have three axis of movement. What this means is a force multiplier. Not sure but think it's 3X.

None of that is taking in the effects of relative electric charge potentials which then have ancillary effects.


What you've done is to create something which appears to have the qualities of a tornado going on, and which may also involve electrical phenomena, besides pure aerodynamics. We also have the fact you've added another dimension with magnetic fields and electrical energy flows. Yea, this is alot like a tornado from what little I know.

Crazy fool, be careful....*Big Smile...BTW, I'm in the car and on my way over...text me.
@Gambeir,

I'm certain you know of Victor Schauberger. His "Repulsine Saucer" built in 1940. It worked with a twin hull and internal upward flow just as you described; Then down again over a second coanda lift body:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg blacksun_31.jpg (41.6 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg maxresdefault.jpg (59.2 KB, 11 views)
__________________
 

Last edited by Allen Burgess; 05-02-2017 at 11:47 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 05-02-2017, 12:14 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,226
Frisbee Avrocar

Here's a drawing of a new concept that couples the spinning hull with the Avrocar air jet nozzle ring:

The air is compressed by tiny motor connected to a two sided drive shaft electric generator I included between the main drive shaft, and blown over the spinning hull from jet air ring around the base from the lip upwards! The design includes a counter rotational gear:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Frisbee Avrocar (2).jpg (75.6 KB, 12 views)
__________________
 

Last edited by Allen Burgess; 05-02-2017 at 12:26 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 05-02-2017, 05:14 PM
Gambeir's Avatar
Gambeir Gambeir is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Peoples republic of Washington
Posts: 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Burgess View Post
@Gambeir,

I'm certain you know of Victor Schauberger. His "Repulsine Saucer" built in 1940. It worked with a twin hull and internal upward flow just as you described; Then down again over a second coanda lift body:
Victor has an extensive library of information which I've not studied in detail. What I have is a thin veneer of knowledge. His ideas are not something to be lightly brushed over in my opinion so I can't comment deeply on them. What I do know is that a person cannot take what others show you and assume they are right about such complexities as those of Victor Schauberger. Many people inject assumptions based on their own presumed knowledge. Knowledge indoctrinated in to them by an educational system who'se real objectives are to impede creativity and invention.

Looking at his machines one has to think carefully and to reason on their own without using the assumptions of others. There are clearly things going on inside the designs and which engage complex relationships of matter and energy, and whose resultant actions may be outside of aerodynamics and having to do with the interactions of energies not typically associated with flying machines.

They are truly fascinating devices which are the product of an exceptional mind. Schaubergers does describe the same, or nearly same, effects as you are now reporting. That is significant with a capital S. Not something to be brushed over lightly.

Now the Avro Car is something more conventional. The Avro Car is something I think I understand and have discussed in detail with an aerodynamicist that I consider to be exemplary. For example, the story line goes that this is a failed invention, that it never took off, but we have no way of knowing if that's true, and logic says otherwise. First of all this is only a small machine, a test machine, a machine produced from sources where money is no object or impediment, despite claims to the contrary, and so it's more of dual purpose machine which fulfills some test requirements and also fulfills needs to explain missing $$$. Like we tried but failed...Sorry>

The reality is that the Avro car never left the ground because it never attained enough forward airspeed: It only needs enough airflow across the hull to make it fly and conventional landing gear could enable that. So like what then, I'm to expect that the engineers were too stupid to fit some wheels to it? The over all design is essentially proven. It can trace its' ancestory back to ring wings and circular wing aircraft from the 1930's, and more recently to Chance Voughts F5U. Another aircraft that also never left the runway.

The machine may have never been intended to fly. Certainly the materials used were not the ones I'd have chosen, which logically would have been those used to build the Vought F5U.

The aircraft is unique in the manner of it's supposed air cushion which was supposed to make it a VTOL capable machine. The central fan which enabled the vertical lift was driven by blown air off jet motors, thus doing away with the torque which requires a counter as is seen in the anti-torque tail rotors of a conventional single rotor helicopters.

So this center fan jet blown propulsion system was an innovative idea, and it works, and it was probably never intended to be a VTOL machine in the first place; that story likely being a cover story. It was probably hoped that the air cushion landing gear system would enable machines to land where no runway existed, such as frozen wastelands, deserts, and so forth.

I see the Avro Car quite differently and very conventionally in terms of thinking and engineering, and those ideas do not reflect the reality of advanced research and development thinking people I know. Any one of whom would have had intimate knowledge of Victor Schauberger, even as far back in time as when this machine was created. All those people whom work in classified projects at that level have access to secret information which us peons didn't have and still don't have.

Point of all this blathering is then that not only can we not expect help from the system, but rather we can expect the exact opposite, and therefore we are all on our own and should be suspicious of explanations which we ourselves cannot validate. The system has no interest in helping us people. It only exists to serve those whom now control it.

I don't know if any of that helps but it's some things to think about. Personally I have to digest your own experimental results and cross correlate those with what I do know about vortex energy systems such as tornado's, brikeland currents, and fluid dynamics in order to consider some form of working model.
__________________
 

Last edited by Gambeir; 05-02-2017 at 05:28 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 05-02-2017, 07:23 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,226
Ducted fan.

@Gambeir,

Would you have any interest in trying to help 3-D print a ducted fan like the one copied from your PDF and pictured above?. It appears to share some of the same wave features included in Victor Shauberger's "Repulsine blade" design.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 05-02-2017, 10:20 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,226
Repulsine main diffuser

Here's a picture of Victor's "Repulsine" main diffuser blade. Similarities to the ducted fan are apparent:
Attached Images
File Type: png Screen Shot 2017-05-02 at 4.12.04 PM.png (412.2 KB, 20 views)
__________________
 

Last edited by Allen Burgess; 05-02-2017 at 10:22 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 05-03-2017, 12:49 AM
Gambeir's Avatar
Gambeir Gambeir is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Peoples republic of Washington
Posts: 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Burgess View Post
@Gambeir,

Would you have any interest in trying to help 3-D print a ducted fan like the one copied from your PDF and pictured above?. It appears to share some of the same wave features included in Victor Shauberger's "Repulsine blade" design.
I would if I had a 3D printer. We may consider alternatives. Electric ducted fan motors that have become popular with RC builders are an alternative. I understand your thinking with the squirrel cage fan. Normally I'd dismiss it as a viable system, but you are correct in your thinking here once more, because following the logic behind rotorcraft/helicopters, the superiority of a rotorcraft over a ducted fan is that it moves more air with the same energy. It is moving it more slowly but it's more efficient because it is moving more air. If a squirrel cage fan can deliver enough airflow at a great enough velocity then it should be a viable fan system, and it may be a better fan system. Hard for me to tell right now.

I spent the day thinking about this so called gaget mall saucer BTW. This resulted in the following.

I sketched out a test platform for a saucer. This would just hold the center solid using a bearing and the base would be weighted/clamped/staked so as to keep the saucer from injury by flying off. Simple arrangement with one axis of movement for now. No provision for a fan at all. The entire idea is prove that blown wind will spin the saucer as described, and that the spin will result in a lift potential.

I sketched out a cutter for a saucer to create a uniform shape from foam. A simple wooden block cut to the profile of the airfoil is all that is needed. Then glue some 80 grit sandpaper to that and lower it on to the spinning foam core. A secondary duplicate block with a 220 grit will produce a fine finish on the foam.

I considered the lift potentials in relation to the known qualities of rotor craft. A wider saucer should enable a low powered motor to produce enough airflow to allow flight: Akin to early under-powered airplanes using a larger airfoil. Therefore an alternative to more power is a wider stance, or greater diameter saucer.

I considered directional control systems. I thought about a swash plate mechanical control system, and then realized we don't need a swash plate.
Affirmative Control by mechanical linkage is possible with a Kaman Helicopter style servo-flap rotor. https://www.helis.com/howflies/servo.php
Alternatively experimentation with the JNL One atmosphere plasma control system may itself be incorporated in to a hull and also function to enhance the airflow.

A couple very ruff sketches.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Burgess Saucer Test Platform.jpg (73.4 KB, 18 views)
File Type: jpg Foam Saucer Cutter.jpg (90.7 KB, 17 views)
__________________
 

Last edited by Gambeir; 05-03-2017 at 02:42 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 05-03-2017, 01:42 AM
Gambeir's Avatar
Gambeir Gambeir is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Peoples republic of Washington
Posts: 78
Just some thoughts here in relation to helicopters.

In rotorcraft most of the lift is generated near the tip of the blades. The cord of the airfoil is also a critical factor in helicopters because the greater the cord, the greater the lift, but the slower the speed of the machine. Also the greater the diameter of the rotor disk, the slower the turning of the rotor blades.

Of these three facts, what seems useful is that the greater the diameter of the saucer, the slower it should need to rotate, and since the saucer is a contained airfoil it doesn't need to deal with the aerodynamics which limit a rotorywing machine: All careful seat of the pants armchair theory naturally.

Generally a tip speed for a rotor blade is around 220 to 260 mph. This is the relative tip speed for a rotor blade at it's tip. Smaller diameter rotors, like on a model helicopter, may have a rotation speed in the area of 2,000 to 2,500 RPM's, but the tip speed of the rotor blade is relative to a full sized helicopter rotor blade tip speed. A 1 meter rotor diameter with an RPM of 2,500 would produce a rotor tip speed of 292mph: That is in the same speed range. A full scale helicopter will have a much slower rotation of the rotor diameter, but the tip speed will be in the same ball park. In models the Reynolds Numbers have a dramatic effect in airfoils on speed and lift. Things to bear in mind.

Nevertheless, the saucer should be supersonic capable since it doesn't need to deal with the aerodynamics which limit a helicopter rotor wing.
Now measuring some of these things is where this begins to take on significance. An RC helicopter optical tachometer or other rotor speed measuring device is needed.
__________________
 

Last edited by Gambeir; 05-03-2017 at 05:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 05-03-2017, 12:14 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,226
Gambeir sketch

@Gambeir,

I resized and rotated your sketch. Good work! This will earn us a DARPA grant!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Gambeir sketch.jpg (231.1 KB, 18 views)
__________________
 

Last edited by Allen Burgess; 05-15-2017 at 04:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 05-03-2017, 05:22 PM
Gambeir's Avatar
Gambeir Gambeir is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Peoples republic of Washington
Posts: 78
Thanks for redoing the images: Just a couple quick sketches I made while waiting for someone. We will never get a DARPA Grant: I saw an entire formation of 11 of these
flying in a perfect formation at Reno NV, and while standing on the roof of a building right there in downtown Reno. If I'd had gotten a video of those no one would believe me
anyways, it was just too sureal to be believed. They didn't even look real to me and I was the one looking at them, that's one of the things I realized while I watching them silently glide across the sky, and almost directly overhead. Clear blue skys, beautiful weather, the saucers were crystal clear images. I had a phone, but I knew that by the time I'd called up the take image/video they would be gone. This was a flight of saucers exactly like the flights of jet fighters I used to see as a kid when my old man would take us out to the airshows as a kid in the 60's. So the USAF has these. I know they do even if no one else is bright enough to believe it. There's no mistaking what a military formation of aircraft looks like, and this was a classic flight of aircraft in formation. I don't think aliens are going to be replicating us in this way, but anyways It was an astonishing sight to behold and someday people will get to see them for themselves. I recall being at Paine Field in Everett, Washington when two F-117 stealths came, the first time we peons were allowed to see what our tax dollars had funded, and the two pilots did a couple of inverted fly bys and rolls. Its the same thing because if you had shown video of that in the 1970's or 80's, well no one would have believed you then either. So ya know... I know... you know... and soon....????


I tell you one thing, it's GD depressing to know this technology exists and to then have to drive around dodging cops turned into corporate highway men for the criminals in the insurance industry, and while paying an extortion fee to use the public highways, and while paying the highest gas tax in the nation so that we can maintain a road system which is as obsolete as donkeys and ox carts. Far as I'm concerned the entire political, corporate, and military system are all traitors and enemies of the people of planet earth everywhere.

These people are crooks plain and simple. I just had to renew my drivers license and it cost me $64 dollars, then I had to buy tabs and that was $96 dollars. I'm living on a fixed income of $574 dollars a month. I'm paying more now for car tabs on a 27 year old car I bought new than I was paying 20 years ago. As a result I'm living with someone else, and we are barely making it right now, we can't afford compulsory auto insurance, and which is communism for corporations and manifestly unconstitutional. I've got a right to use the highways I paid for for the last 7 decades without the threat of some punk in a uniform stealing my car because I'm not paying an extortion fee to the criminals in the insurance industry. I'm really pissed off at the entire system and those who support it. In a free society you're free to choose the goods and services you need. In a free society you're always responsible for your actions, which is why we have jails and prisons, and in a free society you're free to travel without being accosted by goons under the guise of public safety, let alone robbed of your private property for doing nothing more than lawfully going about your business. In a free society you take responsibility for your own actions, and if you don't then we have ways to deal with that which, once upon a time in America, didn't include stealing peoples property and handing over public property to private corporations.

These are just the complaints of an old guy, but when I see what the criminals are doing, what they are doing to the people, to these kids, the screw job they are doing. Well, there's no end to my personal hatred for the rich and the richest of the rich, and for the politicians who serve them, and the lawyers who work for them, and the stooges who parade around in Uniforms pretending to be public servants whilst enforcing laws made by them and to serve them. The've stolen our highways, the've hijacked the people we pay to protect us and turned them in to their own enforcement agents, they are using our kids, our money, our political system to serve themselves, and to terrorize the globle with our own military.

Fighting the system will never work. You have to replace it. Make it obsolete. So ya know that personal air transport, well that is gonna piss them off for a change.
Now these people really want to help....cough...hack..America. Members - New American Economy

These billionairs really, really, really support immigration ...cough...reform. So what they really want is to be able to import low cost slave labor under the guise of needed brain power by flying them over the Trump Wall, while keeping us all locked inside their criminally designed corporate extortion and terror model. What I say is we should then just do away with borders completely since the only purpose is evidently to be used to destory the United States with ruses constructed by criminals, and what better way than to just make all their nazi check points obsolete. Lets just have people going where they want, when they want, doing what they want, and doing it all without being terrorized, robbed, or otherwise abused by these kinds of individuals. How about that for a change?
Home - New American Economy

Cripes sakes...I could really go off on a rant....so I've got to stop while I can otherwise I'll be talking about ropes and trees, but ya know, the real reason behind all this criminality is to fund the projects which only the ubber rich themselves now own and control by proxy systems, which goes back to the very beginning of this post. They own those saucers. Not the USAF, Not we the people, and We are all in danger because of it, because of the secrecy, and if we ourselves don't start trying to catch up they will end up abusing us a lot more than the petty complaints which I've raised here. So I pretty much hate the entire corporate crime cabal which owns the political system, but this here rant...well, it's supposed to be more than just a rant. It is a raison d'tre for action.

So this here project is one thing I can do that may have an effect on those thugs, so enough with the small issues....on to the important stuff.

Of course doing something with a pencil is no problem at all. Getting off your butt to actually accomplish the mission is something else altogether. Doing these kind of things takes a lot longer to accomplish in real life as opposed to what you mind envisions. Typically I figure I under estimate the amount of time required by a factor of 4X.

First I need a saucer mounted to a bearing on a test rig. A test platform similar to the sketch would enable other test ideas. Such as spinning the saucer up with a motor: Measuring what effects that might have, if any, and then applying a series of directed air jet experiments. Such as applying a direct stream down on the vehicle and then jet streams applied as in the manner you used on your machine.

A one atmosphere plasma control system as described by JNL Labs could then be applied to the saucer and tested for measured effect against the previous test data.

However, if this is doing what you have said it is doing, then I would think that it's likely that using some primitive tools would quickly validate what seems obvious, and so like a smoke pot or something along those lines would reveal the majority of the airflow pattern, and which are almost assuredly going to follow a spiral radial pattern outwards from the applied jet stream.

Pretty tempting to just apply a series of plasma control ropes to follow a spiral pattern outwards from the center of the saucer and to then run it up with an applied air jet. Another thing is locking this whole thing down and running it up might also show whether or not there's any other phenomena going on. I can't imagine it would without enough altitude underneath it, but you never know. Maybe applying some electrical charges, magnetic fields, around the base would prove interesting.
__________________
 

Last edited by Gambeir; 05-03-2017 at 07:44 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 05-04-2017, 12:10 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,226
Spiral Magnetic Vortex.

I saw a video where Brian O'Leary described how UFO's worked: Basically he explained that the power involved two counter rotating magnetic fields.

Jerry Bayles is a theoretical physicist with an electro-gravitational "Unified Field Theory". Every galaxy has a black hole at the center along with every atom. Gravity and magnetism are linked like electricity and light. Jerry's lab tests involve spinning an axial polarized disk magnet in adjacency to "Exciter Magnets". The disk has no influence on the magnets at low R.P.M. then as the disc magnet accelerates the magnet field Spirals Outward.

I spun very large magnets in a spiral bifilar Bedini. One day after stopping the 4" neo spinner, I brought the magnet sphere around 20 feet to the other end of the room to avoid collision. The magnet lifted up off the floor and flew into a smaller sphere and shattered it. I realized years later that a swirling magnetic "Tornado Field" lingered and extended far from the spin center.

I thought last night that electrically charging a sheet of "Nanocrystyline Metglass" might cause it to fly on this invisible swirling field.

Hee's a link to one of Jerry's videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jEhLrIMlpk&t=8s

Below on the left is a picture of my 4" neo spinner inside the spiral coil core; On the right a magnetic viewer image of a ring magnet center hole:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg hqdefault.jpg (104.9 KB, 13 views)
__________________
 

Last edited by Allen Burgess; 05-15-2017 at 04:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 05-04-2017, 01:47 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,226
Magnetic vortex llft

Turn the volume down on the soundtrack:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyJnId40pek
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 05-04-2017, 05:29 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,226
Magnetic spiral.

A starting spiral on the left and an actual photograph of electron and positron spirals on the left:
__________________
 

Last edited by Allen Burgess; 05-15-2017 at 04:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 05-04-2017, 05:50 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,226
Magnetic Flux Vortex.

The important point is that a large high speed spinning neo magnet sphere generates a "Tornado Vortex" that extends outward in an expanding spiral and continues to rotate for an extended time after the prime mover is halted like a huge magnetic flywheel.

I'm searching for a video I remember seeing that demonstrates this effect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwBtBEaZ7B4
__________________
 

Last edited by Allen Burgess; 05-04-2017 at 06:22 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 05-04-2017, 09:44 PM
Gambeir's Avatar
Gambeir Gambeir is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Peoples republic of Washington
Posts: 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Burgess View Post
I saw a video where Brian O'Leary described how UFO's worked: Basically he explained that the power involved two counter rotating magnetic fields.

Jerry Bayles is a theoretical physicist with an electro-gravitational "Unified Field Theory". Every galaxy has a black hole at the center along with every atom. Gravity and magnetism are linked like electricity and light. Jerry's lab tests involve spinning an axial polarized disk magnet in adjacency to "Exciter Magnets". The disk has no influence on the magnets at low R.P.M. then as the disc magnet accelerates the magnet field Spirals Outward.

I spun very large magnets in a spiral bifilar Bedini. One day after stopping the 4" neo spinner, I brought the magnet sphere around 20 feet to the other end of the room to avoid collision. The magnet lifted up off the floor and flew into a smaller sphere and shattered it. I realized years later that a swirling magnetic "Tornado Field" lingered and extended far from the spin center.

I thought last night that electrically charging a sheet of "Nanocrystyline Metglass" might cause it to fly on this invisible swirling field.

[/url]

Below on the left is a picture of my 4" neo spinner inside the spiral coil core; On the right a magnetic viewer image of a ring magnet center hole:
I am slightly familiar with Jerry Bayles. I am not familiar with these experiments. Almost everything he does is beyond my ability to comprehend sufficiently unless it's explained in lay terms.

Now, I'm told that to rotate a magnetic field you have to physically spin the field. What you experienced is the first story I've encountered that describes a magnetic vortex, or cyclone/tornado like action.

I have to say that's a story which reminds me of some of Joe Parr's experiences with shape power pyramids or tetrahedrons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Burgess View Post
I realized years later that a swirling magnetic "Tornado Field" lingered and extended far from the spin center.
A very significant observation quite frankly: I dare say one with some rather interesting implications.

So ya know, the space around us is supposedly arranged in a crystalline pattern of sorts, and held together by means of interlocking tensors, which for lack of a better description, are merely the mathematical descriptors of geometry for our reality in space and the energies that make up matter by binding ions to each other, and all of which form this crystalline like arrangement of our so called dimension.

At least this is what I've managed to deduce from a wide ranging assortment of mathematical mumbo jumbo, graphs, spells, incantations, or what may rightly be labeled everyday basic Voodoo Science. Probably completely inaccurately, much like most things I also think I understand, but I'm happy with the idea that I know something, even if so far all of this profound knowledge has proven entirely meaningless, but I digress....

So anyways....Edward Leedskalnin said that there were no such things as electrons, that electron theory was all bunk, and that there were only magnets; tiny, tiny, magnets. The qualities of Chiral Crystals are eerily in keeping with that idea, and although I know almost nothing about these crystals right now, I do know that they seemed linked to the nature of reality and to life itself in ways we do not as yet understand, and that these crystals can act as magnetic switches that then rotate and or can also influence the magnetic fields around themselves. Now, I'm just beginning to dig into this myself, but thought it worth bringing up as a result of your own experience; what with blowing up magnets in reckless disregard for life and limb.

So ya know...there's more going on than we imagine with this here reality. Joe Parr himself said that once he had created this energy bubble, that's what Joe called it, he then said it continued to grow and was a problem. Now I don't know about others, but levitating high power magnets flying about and blowing themselves to kingdom come is a problem for me personally, and maybe others too? Some danged interesting information is what that is Allen.

Any how I'm kind of all over the place, but I want to show you something I just ran in to. I feel confident it will have meaning, or if not meaning then at least it's good for shock value.
Schematic figure of designed chiral photonic crystals: PS, the link worked for me.

What are the odds?
https://www.researchgate.net/profile...-layer-and.png


Twisting magnets enhance data storage capacity
https://phys.org/news/2016-02-magnet...-capacity.html
__________________
 

Last edited by Gambeir; 05-05-2017 at 02:08 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 05-05-2017, 02:02 AM
Gambeir's Avatar
Gambeir Gambeir is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Peoples republic of Washington
Posts: 78
I might mention a couple of ideas. One is that a turbo from a car or truck has a suitable turbine wheel. No need to make anything. Off the shelf components are available.
Just call up images and then search turbocharger parts. Probably better if it can be run up to a high enough RPM.

Have you thought about directional control systems? I've been thinking about this as a possible issue. Originally I was thinking we needed a swash plate like on a helicopter.
You have any thoughts on this right off hand?

A secondary thought involves model helicopters. There are parts to those which might be useful.

Search RC Heli schematics, and such. You want to see something like this.
http://www.rcvliegshop.eu/exploded_v...20HM%2036B.jpg

Example of main drive gear for a model helicopter
https://www.rc-fever.com/image/data/...yr7-as1129.jpg

PS: I guess this means the study of this field is now illegal in Europe huh? I mean what with the hate speech laws they have and all....LOL!
https://www.researchgate.net/profile...-layer-and.png
__________________
 

Last edited by Gambeir; 05-05-2017 at 02:18 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 05-05-2017, 07:09 AM
Gambeir's Avatar
Gambeir Gambeir is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Peoples republic of Washington
Posts: 78
Here's some links to drive yourself crazy with.

CFD Study of an Annular-Ducted Fan Lift System for VTOL Aircraft
Aerospace | Free Full-Text | CFD Study of an Annular-Ducted Fan Lift System for VTOL Aircraft | HTML

Great site
Most designers were amateurs, but even the professionals were seduced by the idea of a completely circular craft

US Patents: Wingless aerodynes, disc aircraft, lenticular airplanes, &c...

some patents which I spotted. This turbo ramjet being a unique and interesting work round for running a ramjet motor without having to be flying a couple hundred miles per hour.

Rotary ramjet turbo-generator
https://www.google.com/patents/US7685824

The rest of these are sketchy and possibly a bit crazy. Might be worth taking a moment of time.
https://www.google.com/patents/US6450446
https://www.google.com.kw/patents/US5170963
https://www.google.com/patents/US5503351
https://www.google.com/patents/US4913376
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 05-05-2017, 03:28 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,226
Ducted fan.

@Gambeir,

Thank you. I've seen much of that material in the past. I met with Dr. Moller and toured his test facility.

Here are two fact's gleaned from the ducted fan PDF:

ONE: The F-35 JSF uses a shaft to turn the fan:

TWO: "Therefore, compared to the Apache rotor, the 3-m lift fan system is more efficient and can save 22% of the power".

Imagine a ducted fan "Frisbee" with a couple of jets on an airframe as pictured below on the left:
__________________
 

Last edited by Allen Burgess; 05-13-2017 at 03:41 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 05-05-2017, 07:24 PM
Gambeir's Avatar
Gambeir Gambeir is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Peoples republic of Washington
Posts: 78
Yes this is a useful pdf.
Aerospace | Free Full-Text | CFD Study of an Annular-Ducted Fan Lift System for VTOL Aircraft | HTML

I didn't have time to pick through it when I posted it, but for me, the fact that the fans are twin fans, one over the other in counter rotation is important, and that the fans could be jet driven (Avro Car) eliminates mechanical failure.

OK, well this is a bit of a shock to be frank.
"compared to the Apache rotor, the 3-m lift fan system is more efficient and can save 22% of the power"

Now, as far as a model goes, I thought this rotary ramjet turbo-generator is an interesting concept: Not something I've seen applied to a ram jet motor, and which might work as an alternative being a jet power source. Somewhere's about there's an extensive site from a gentleman that worked with ramjet missiles I've looked at before. They are more complex than one imagines. A lot of math involved, but you're good with that I know.
https://www.google.com/patents/US7685824

The other stuff, well it just shows there's a long history to wanting wings in the garage: Lots of ideas, most completely wacked.

Anyways some of this may be useful. Will have to digest and think about this a bit more while fooling round getting some stuff together to lay out a cutter for a saucer hull.
__________________
 

Last edited by Gambeir; 05-05-2017 at 07:29 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 05-05-2017, 09:09 PM
Gambeir's Avatar
Gambeir Gambeir is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Peoples republic of Washington
Posts: 78
Found this which goes with the Annular ducted lift fan VTOL aircraft pdf.

Annular ducted lift fan VTOL aircraft - Patent application
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 05-07-2017, 07:45 PM
Gambeir's Avatar
Gambeir Gambeir is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Peoples republic of Washington
Posts: 78
I've been on this for so long that I was sure there was more ....somewhere's about in the wilds.

So anyways...."THIS"

Seems these sonofs.....have a head start! Go to the link below for data overload.

edav

Right about now this appears to be the go to source.
There's also a page with load of pdfs I've got to sort through.
Some more useful than others.


Schauberger drawing - “Spin Wave Technology”


“Eizelement” is not the full word but in German this stands for “Magnets”

*****This is completely inaccurate: It directly translates specifically to heating element
__________________
 

Last edited by Gambeir; 05-09-2017 at 12:23 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 05-07-2017, 10:16 PM
Gambeir's Avatar
Gambeir Gambeir is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Peoples republic of Washington
Posts: 78
BTW, I just picked up a lazy susan, and the complete hull for a Hanabau III from the dollar store this AM. I feel sorry for other people>

This may make more sense once you add on my paper modeling techniques to the infomation in the PDF Link from Ultralightamerica.com
I have no idea if this works or not yet.

LETTER 01-15 “Pie Plate Flying Saucer Experiment”
fixed the link
http://www.ultralightamerica.com/Doc...WR011505-B.pdf
__________________
 

Last edited by Gambeir; 05-07-2017 at 10:41 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 05-07-2017, 10:48 PM
Gambeir's Avatar
Gambeir Gambeir is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Peoples republic of Washington
Posts: 78
Allen these make more sense to you. I've found this stuff but am pretty busy right this second. Haven't got time to look them over well.

http://www.ultralightamerica.com/Doc...ings/WR702.pdf

Complete Index to documents.
Index of /Docs/Writings
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 05-08-2017, 07:04 PM
ET-Power's Avatar
ET-Power ET-Power is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Republic of California
Posts: 92
Thank you all for the detailed information and references, happy flying!!!
__________________
"Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God." - Benjamin Franklin + Thomas Jefferson
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
coanda, building, remainder, lift, vertical, create, gadetmalls, surface, circuit, perpetually, airbourne, drone, result, hull, form, body, motor, air, fan, top, cage, squirl, ufo, mounting, rotor

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Please consider supporting Energetic Forum with a voluntary monthly subscription.

For One-Time Donations, use admin@ this domain > energeticforum.com

Choose your voluntary subscription

All times are GMT. The time now is 02:47 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v1.4.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Shoutbox provided by vBShout v6.2.8 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
2007-2015 Copyright - Energetic Forum - All Rights Reserved

Bedini RPX Sideband Generator

Tesla Chargers