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  #1  
Old 02-09-2017, 05:55 PM
RAMSET RAMSET is offline
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Mechanical Magnetic Torque Amplifier

Member Floor at OU.com has inspired much replication effort with his meticulous open source
magnet TD work here

TD replications

member GotoLuc has evolved quite an interesting Offshoot here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUlDMY1iE5A

all comments welcomed and appreciated
respectfully
Chet K
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Last edited by RAMSET; 02-09-2017 at 06:00 PM.
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  #2  
Old 02-10-2017, 11:19 AM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is online now
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Linear-to-rotary actuator.

Attaching a spiral grove gear to the wheel hub and an upright pinion to a brace on the sliding rails, should get it to self run.
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Last edited by Allen Burgess; 02-10-2017 at 03:15 PM.
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  #3  
Old 02-10-2017, 11:19 AM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is online now
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Self runner.

Click on the attachment to see it in action: Linear-to-rotary actuator: Luc's throw of around 11 mm looks as though it would spin the actuator easily. Luc's gain of 60% is way more then the transmission bearing will consume in friction loss. This is bound to begin to run itself with tolerance machining. 1/2 turn of a screw thread running end to end on each side a .43" plug, and a pinion to fit the groove.
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Old 02-10-2017, 09:04 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is online now
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Additional rotor magnets.

How would pairing 12 additional magnets back to back on the rotor, doubling the magnetic rotor force overhead, effect the lateral force on the sideways traveling magnet underneath?
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Last edited by Allen Burgess; 02-10-2017 at 09:17 PM.
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  #5  
Old 02-10-2017, 10:13 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is online now
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Double magnet test.

I just finished hand testing the back to back magnets theory with some ceramics I have and it definitely doubles the force of side ways torsion on the perpendicular magnet to double the strength on the rotor side magnets. Luc could probably get 1000 grams of lateral force by doubling his rotor magnets.

I tested with ring ceramics. It would be possible to build one from speaker or micro wave ceramic toroid's with 3" and 4" diameters. The throw would go from .43" to 4". The toroid 's would lay flat on the bike wheel and the stator underneath would stand upright on the treadle. The magnet travels from the edge to the center, then to the other side,, and back of the toroid and back, for throw of 2" each way on the 4" ring. That's over 8 times Luc's throw!
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Old 02-10-2017, 11:09 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is online now
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Toroid magnet Testing.

An additional test with my ceramic rings has shown that hinging the lateral direction toroid at the base will cause the top of the toroid to flip forcefully from side to side the full diameter of the overhead, delivering plenty of throw to any sliding rods attached to the top.
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Last edited by Allen Burgess; 02-10-2017 at 11:13 PM.
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Old 02-10-2017, 11:26 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is online now
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Diametric.

A diametric neo tube magnet shows the same opposing rotary to lateral force on the ceramic ring. A bicycle wheel maybe way too large! The sheer force is greater then force of rotation. Luc could get his base magnet to go back and forth the same way by just spinning a diametric neo magnet over it with his Dremel tool.
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Last edited by Allen Burgess; 02-11-2017 at 10:37 AM.
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  #8  
Old 02-11-2017, 10:51 AM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is online now
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Kundel linear to rotaty actuator.

Rotating the 4 corner magnets by moving the center magnet up and down, in this Kundel actuator below, must be OU by the same factor! The linear torque must be amplified by the rotating satellites, like Luc's wheel. The sliding magnet remains fixed. Four rotating ceramics can attach to small gears and turn a larger gear attached to the hub. The magnets turn 360 degrees in the same direction, 180 moving in, the other 180 moving out.

Imagine flip flopping four hinged ceramic discs braced around a rotating neo tube.
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Old 02-11-2017, 11:04 AM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is online now
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Upgrade..

We can use the Kundel Actuator as a (Linear-to-rotary) mechanisem to self run Luc's wheel:

Kundel Magnetics

A toroid magnet would be positioned at the top of a brace attached to the sliding rails, and a larger one on the wheel hub. The Kundel site shows an animation of two toroid magnets in a linear-to-rotary configuration. Click on "Reciprocating Motors" on the Kundel page. The toroids are different sizes: One, small enough to fit inside the larger's core. The larger rotating toroid has a coupled partner. They're magnetized so each half circle has an opposite charge; As the smaller toroid approaches the center of the larger one, on a straight line, the larger toroid begins to rotate 180 degrees and when the linear toroid withdraws, the larger wheel hub toroid continues to circle in the same direction.

The "Throw" is proportional to the distance between the toroids. Therefore we can compress them sufficiently to deliver full rotation from exactly 11 mm of throw.

The ring magnet below is diametrically magnetized. They're sold this way. This is what the linear actuator looks like: Very simple!
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File Type: png magdir_R842DIA.png (2.6 KB, 10 views)
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  #10  
Old 02-11-2017, 01:05 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is online now
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Kundel operating principle

Take a close look at the first 15 seconds of this video; All Luc really needs is three correctly positioned magnets to transfer his reciprocating linear to rotary motion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNgd1ZVZtsY&t=6s
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  #11  
Old 02-11-2017, 02:18 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is online now
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Rotation test.

I built a model of the kundel prototype. It's two ceramic discs in opposition attached to the ends of a plastic stick, suspended overhead by a magnet axle.

The stick spins like crazy when the ceramic disc magnet stator is drawn close between the poles on the perpendicular. TDC for the spinner! The same sheer force that's powering the linear track, is put to work a second time as an actuator clutch. Same trick! You have to hit it just right! Just like a rotating Oersted current spinner. There's definitly an asymmetrical relationship between the linear force of the stator magnet and the rotational sheer that spins the stick and would power the rotor wheel! Naturally, turning the stator magnet around reverses the direction of spin.

The bonanza is, we add a second gain factor in the proportion Floor describes and Luc demonstrates in his exceptional video.
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Old 02-11-2017, 03:25 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is online now
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Diametric rotor.

The Zen version has a diametric tube over a broad faced polarized magnet. Now, approaching the diametric neo tube from the side with a stator magnet when the N,S poles are on the perpendicular should power the magnet. I just tried this with a 3/4" diametric tube and an axial polarized ceramic disc. The Neo tube spins like crazy when the disc is closed in to it from the side when the poles of the neo are on the perpendicular.

A connecting rod attached to a hinged flopper magnet , can have a stator magnet on the rod that pulls into the side of the diametric neo tube at just the right time to power it! We Still hit the daily double on the twin sheer gain!
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Last edited by Allen Burgess; 02-11-2017 at 03:28 PM.
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  #13  
Old 02-11-2017, 05:05 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is online now
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1/2 turn.

What I determined so far is that the diametric tube only kicks securely a 1/2 turn from the approaching perpendicular magnet while applying rotor friction. The motor needs another magnet on the other end, in opposition to complete the revoloution. So two connecting rods would need to go in both directions, each one with a linear magnet in opposition on the ends.

In operation, the two broad faced magnets would reciprocate from side to side to rotate the neo tube from it's ends, which in turn would deflect the base magnet as the poles changed on the neo diametric tube, to drive the reciprocating rotator magnets. Three axial polarized ceramics and one diametric tube.

It might help Luc to place a kundel magnet on both sides of his wheel and utilize both power strokes to spin it. That would leave only a 1/4" inch gap on each side. Larger magnets can increase the throw. Probably just gluing the rotor magnets side to side may double the throw!

My ceramic ring is traveling the entire 1" length of the tube from end to end which is already twice the throw Luc gets from his ceramic blocks. A 2" tube would double the throw again.
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  #14  
Old 02-12-2017, 02:31 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is online now
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Throw

Luc would have to reduce his number of rotor magnets from 12 to 2, set at 180 degrees, to get the "Kundel" actuator timing to work correctly.

The original Kundel prototype runs from the oscillation of an amplified speaker. 1/4" throw on each side would be more then the speaker supplies to achieve rotation. Timing and precision adjustment is very important. Magnets of opposite polarity would have to be attached to each side of the rotor wheel, so the linear oscillating drive magnet could nudge them into rotation from the side at just the right moment. It would help to enlarge the two rotor magnets and position them on a smaller diameter wheel to raise R.P.M. The "Kundel" magnets should be mounted on discs that are positioned to the outside of the rotor axel on each end; as pictured below:
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  #15  
Old 02-12-2017, 04:28 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is online now
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Multiple Kundel sets

Instead of reducing the number of Luc's rotor magnets, we can just multiply the "Kundel" magnets on the timing discs. An array of 6 bipolar spoke sets on each side would give each rotor magnet it's own propulsion event from the reciprocating linear broad side polarized stator magnet at 90 degrees.

What would probably work best is "Kundel's" latest design that uses two toroid magnets of different dimensions, the smaller penetrating the air core of the larger coupled pair. The problem is the toroids would limit the number of rotor magnets to only two.On the other hand, additional magnets would add strength to the alternator. Luc showed gain on the rotary to linear actuation and the accompanying "kick". The "twist Kick" from the Kundel actuator on the axle would probably add even additional gain. Twelve kicks, six from each side staggered rotor array. This wheel could generate 10 horsepower.
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Last edited by Allen Burgess; 02-13-2017 at 01:23 PM.
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  #16  
Old 02-13-2017, 02:06 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is online now
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Timing magnet positioning.

The illustrations show a sideways view of the 6 "Kundel Magnets" positioned on one of the timing wheels on the left, and a frontal view. The other side has staggered magnets to line up with the opposite poles.

The force rotor magnets has to carry the rotor 180 degrees as the minimum to run this alternator because the "Kundel Stator" imparts only a 90 degree rotation to the timing wheel magnets, and the timing magnets show up facing the wrong direction if it dosen't race past that point..
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File Type: jpg timing mags..jpg (80.6 KB, 18 views)
File Type: jpg actuator1 (2).jpg (71.0 KB, 11 views)
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Old 02-13-2017, 07:31 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is online now
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4 magnets.

This kind of alternator can't work with 12 magnets! With 4 rotor magnets, each kick would need to spin the wheel and timing magnets 180 degrees, even though the force stops at 90, or the "Kundel" timing magnets would wind up upside down. This "follow Through" force to carry the wheel the extra 90 degrees involves the timing and positioning of the linear stator and the magnet strength. The "Kundle Actuator" needs this glide stroke to work. Luc would be better off with the helix pinion gear.

The two rotor magnets themselves could act as Kundle actuators if the wheel rotated 180 degrees from a single propulsion kick of the linear stator.
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Last edited by Allen Burgess; 02-13-2017 at 08:01 PM.
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  #18  
Old 02-13-2017, 08:28 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is online now
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Glide pass.

This is the only possible way this can work. The "Kundle Actuator" makes the glide pass:

A jar lid with two same size magnets as Luc uses would generate the same lateral force at each turn as Luc's 12 magnet rotor, it just needs to turn six times faster to equal the frequency. A rotor that size would be alot easier to turn, yet we'd have the same 530 grams of lateral force in each direction!
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File Type: jpg actuator (2).jpg (66.7 KB, 12 views)
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Old 02-14-2017, 08:59 AM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is online now
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Abacus

The sketch below is of a diametric neo tube on a wire over broad face polarized ceramic ring magnets. There are two diametric "Kundel" rings in opposition on the top wire at each end of the rotor, for linear to rotary actuation (below left, and right). Rotation of the neo tube results in linear shuddering in the ceramic rings below, and this motion should transfer back to the neo tube spinner through the twist kick from the (Cross Field) stator rings attached to the ceramics at the base. The neo tube needs to travel 180 degrees from each stator impulse to work. The field poles of the diametric stator rings have to be on the horizontal in closure against a perpendicular rotor polarity. A couple of plastic bread snaps could act as cotter pins around the wire axle to keep the rotor tube centered, and tongue depressors can act as stator braces glued to the stator magnets and to bushings at the sides of the ceramic's pile, with holes for the wires to pass through..
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File Type: jpg Untitled.jpg (67.0 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg zen (2).jpg (104.5 KB, 16 views)
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Old 02-14-2017, 08:05 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is online now
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Toroid stators

Here are the Toroids:
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Old 02-14-2017, 09:18 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is online now
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180 rotation.

Kundle maintains the retraction force turns the magnets an additional 90 degrees for a total of 180 degrees. Luc's setup with 2 rotor magnets on a baby carriage wheel would have the best chance. Assuming Kundel's correct, and there's power on the retraction stroke, the wheel would have constant power from both sides This motor may need two cogs on the wheel to flip the stator magnets over at the 180 point!.
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Old 02-14-2017, 10:00 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is online now
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Twin staggered rotor magnets.

Two tracks of rotor magnets staggered side by side could operate two seperate linear magnets on tracks below. Two rotor magnets NS following each other on the left side of the wheel would move the wheel 180 degrees from one side, in and out, then the two magnets on the right side of the rotor would shove the second linear magnet on the other side in and out for the second 180 degrees of the revoloution! This way the Kundel magnets line up right for the stator, and it would double the throw.! The wheel might need some balance weights on the spokes. A wheel with four twin staggered rotor magnets and two linear drive magnets attached to the kundle stators and timing magnets..
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Last edited by Allen Burgess; 02-15-2017 at 11:45 AM.
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Old 02-15-2017, 12:05 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is online now
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Schematic

Here's what it would look like: The rotor magnets would actually be positioned at 90 degree intervals, unlike the schematic which just shows the offset arrangement. The staggered array doubles the "Throw". One traveler magnet is always to the outside when it's twin makes its transit; A strip of mu-metal between these magnets would completely eliminate interference. This design thoroughly integrates the 'Kundel" actuator into Luc's rotary linear actuator. The combination is a win win proposition. A thin plexiglass disc with the block ceramics glued to the side would look like the drawing on the right. The center figure is a distortion.
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File Type: jpg mmm.jpg (70.4 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg offset magnets.jpg (53.5 KB, 8 views)
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Old 02-15-2017, 02:44 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is online now
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weight drop

Luc could hang 530 grams of weight off his rotor wheel by a string 1/2" off his bench top, drop the weight and see if the rotor wheel traveled 90 degrees to test the concept's feasiblity. It's easy to see how a smaller wheel with less magnets would go further from the same 530 gram, 1/2" drop test. Pictured below are two of the four offset rotor magnets positioned at 90 degrees, and again glued to the side on a thinner disk: Fattening disk thickness would reduce traveler magnet interference at the base.
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File Type: jpg ninety.jpg (63.2 KB, 4 views)
File Type: jpg disk.jpg (47.8 KB, 2 views)
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Old 02-15-2017, 05:27 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is online now
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Kundel video

In this video, Kundel shows his actuator get a full 360 degree rotation from each in and out cycle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJu6IUlWzYI
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Old 02-15-2017, 05:53 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is online now
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Full Twin

The best advantage would come from filling the wheel with rotor magnets and doubling the force to drive the wheel.
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Last edited by Allen Burgess; 02-15-2017 at 06:17 PM.
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Old 02-16-2017, 01:44 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is online now
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90 dgree approach.

It occured to me that I may have left everyone wondering what good the reciprocating design I dreamed up is? If the stator magnet approaches the timing magnets at 90 degrees instead of 180, The wheel only turns 90 degrees not 180. The advantage to this is that cuts the throw in half, along with the input. The available throw is under a half an inch!

Look at this four magnet rotor: The motor dosen't need space between the rotor magnets. The Kundel Rotary to Linear actuator uses a square magnet.
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File Type: jpg 4 magnet rotor.jpg (80.5 KB, 8 views)
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Old 02-16-2017, 03:10 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is online now
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Double array

Look at this square wheel trigger rotor: This arrangement would double the power to the wheel, and minimize the drag. Each stator would share the work evenly. The traveler rotor magnet gap would equal 1/10th of an inch.
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File Type: jpg Double array.jpg (76.7 KB, 8 views)
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Old 02-16-2017, 04:28 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is online now
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Siamese array

Here's the "Siamese" array and the Yu Oscillating generator. The question is: Will the traveler magnet go the extra distance? What's wrong with four same polarity magnets side by side accross the stepper wheel? A two inch throw could work both sides of the wheel. There's four times the free energy in the magnet track. We can see how Luc's opposite pole rotor magnet placement solves Yu's cantankerous servo problem. Suppose we rotated two opposite magnet tracks on a barrel? Would that magnet traveler be able to spin the rotor? power the rotor?

There's an asymmetrical relationship between the additional force extra track magnets generate and the force necessary to spin the rotor with the additional magnet weight. The NS square trigger rotor only needs to turn 90 degrees.
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File Type: jpg Siamese array.jpg (76.5 KB, 6 views)
File Type: png You generator.png (84.0 KB, 14 views)
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Old 02-16-2017, 06:00 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is online now
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Quadro.

Here's four box tracks turning each other in succession with connecting rods then reversing itself:
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