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  #31  
Old 10-27-2016, 07:44 PM
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Cornboy 555 Cornboy 555 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadman View Post
Count me in.

I haven't been able to access my photobucket account since this thread was opened so couldn't furnish pics.

I'll take some more shots tonight and try postimage.org.

@Cornboy,
You have the exact same commutator that I have. Small world huh.

Regards,
CM
Hey Cadman, i had the exact same problem with photobucket so i tried IMG.com ,and it worked very fast.

The commutator was from Eurton electric US, i had to wait 3 weeks for it to come to Australia. Very affordable compared to some.

All the best with your build.

Regards Cornboy.
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  #32  
Old 10-27-2016, 08:12 PM
Shadow119g Shadow119g is offline
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[IMG]
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/p/AF1QipMU7mkDC_LTqkxc8F2OKC-VFFmef2jsiN8GBpPk=s512-p-iv5481?key=eTc4UzNWYWg2OEpualktNXZHMzFaR1k0SUNNdUp B[/IMG]
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  #33  
Old 10-27-2016, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Shadow119g View Post
[IMG]
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/p/AF1QipMU7mkDC_LTqkxc8F2OKC-VFFmef2jsiN8GBpPk=s512-p-iv5481?key=eTc4UzNWYWg2OEpualktNXZHMzFaR1k0SUNNdUp B[/IMG]
Hello Shadow119g,


Nice Part G Toroid winding, looks beautiful!!

In order for people to see your image it can not be added between [IMG][/IMG]

It is given as a web link...

So, just use the "Blue World and Chain Link" Icon on the editor tabs and it will open up like below in another window:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/p/...aR1k0SUNNdUp B

Or you could enclose it with some code you could read when you quote my post...I can't write it here it won't show...And it will look like below, directly here so anyone could see it...



Writing code is poetry...


Looks great!!


Regards


Ufopolitics
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  #34  
Old 10-28-2016, 12:20 AM
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Exclamation Bad week

it's been a bad week for me as many things were stolen from me where i live. then again last night my 20 foot 2 awg jumper cables were stolen and a brand new battery. bad thing was i borrowed it from neighbor. this morning a box of cables come up missing that had my camera cable in it so now i am stuck no way to post my pics until i order new cable.
thank god they know nothing about my Figuera parts.
good news is i am rebuilding my wire tree for my winding machine that is kept under lock and key and my timing board is finished being manufactured.

i am rewinding my primaries for lowest ohms possible.

SHADOW;

Be forwarned, Figuera's commutator bars were actually thick wire on a core with not a lot of windings. you will most likely experience a high currant drop with that amount of windings. i hope not because it looks very nice. please keep this in mind.

MM
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Last edited by marathonman; 10-28-2016 at 12:26 AM.
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  #35  
Old 10-28-2016, 01:02 AM
Cadman Cadman is offline
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This is the test rig I've been working on.

MY1016 24V 250 watt motor.
Precision ground 1/2" drive shaft.
The resistance is wound with 12 GA THHN house wire per the spreadsheet uploaded to the other thread. Double core, 40 turns, 16 taps.

Not shown is the magnet wire, .75 kva supply transformer and the control switches.

A lot of time has been spent aligning the motor, coupler and shaft mounts only to discover the bearings may be bad. They're heating up and after about 5 minutes the amp draw climbs from 2 to 3 amps. Guess I'll have to tear it down again and get some replacements. So it goes.

Cheers
CM









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  #36  
Old 10-28-2016, 01:14 AM
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Thumbs up Awesome

Your part G looks awesome. the only difference between yours and mine is i have shorter taps and thicker wire with screws at taps to connect to high side PNP transistors.

looks very nice and impressive.

MM
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Last edited by marathonman; 10-28-2016 at 10:55 AM.
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  #37  
Old 10-28-2016, 02:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marathonman View Post
it's been a bad week for me as many things were stolen from me where i live. then again last night my 20 foot 2 awg jumper cables were stolen and a brand new battery. bad thing was i borrowed it from neighbor. this morning a box of cables come up missing that had my camera cable in it so now i am stuck no way to post my pics until i order new cable.
thank god they know nothing about my Figuera parts.
good news is i am rebuilding my wire tree for my winding machine that is kept under lock and key and my timing board is finished being manufactured.

i am rewinding my primaries for lowest ohms possible.

SHADOW;

Be forwarned, Figuera's commutator bars were actually thick wire on a core with not a lot of windings. you will most likely experience a high currant drop with that amount of windings. i hope not because it looks very nice. please keep this in mind.

MM
Hi MM, sorry to hear of your loss.

A few questions if you wouldn't mind, what is the width of the flat wire for your G core winding?, what gauge wire are you using for your primaries, and what ohms are you aiming for with primary coils?.

Best Regards Cornboy.
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  #38  
Old 10-28-2016, 04:29 AM
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Thumbs up Good Question

My part G wire is .4 rectangle wire which might be a little to wide as we will see as i have only 16 winds but my core is 5 plus inches deep = a lot of core exposure. my primaries are 18 awg, two separate winding's.( parallel ) this is what i have and all i have. if i had the money and or wire i would rather wind my primaries with 14 awg but all i have is a 10 lb spool of 18 awg wire.

the reason my wire is so wide was i planed on a mechanical part G but changed my mind after i bought wire to switch to electronic timing to mimic brush rotation. also the commutator bars in figueras patent are actual thick winding"s on a core. my suspicion was confermed that the wire count was low from hanon's video and my own test i conducted thus confermed this to be true. 1/4 turn of the variac using DC was all it took to vary the currant.

the whole philosophy behind the madness is why shouldn't the primaries be the least ohmage as possible as part G controls the currant. so this is why the primaries should be lowest as possible to attain the highest magnetization as possible.

the primaries are specifically there to be "ELECTROMAGNETS", NOT GOVERN CURRANT so why not design them to do there job the greatest they can be. so basically if you can get away with it....zero ohms. imagine that. if i had three inch length copper coductor to wrap it with i would do it.

when the primaries are at peak currant, they are there for only 2.08 miliseconds (USA 60 hz) 2.5 miliseconds ( European 50 hz) at 16 figuera intervals. at this length of time almost no amount of currant can do damage to wires (WITHIN REASON) so wind your primaries to take advantage of this peak with no adverse affects. ie. biggest bang for your buck as to say.

part G was made to control the currant NOT THE PRIMARIES so thus we need to configure the primaries with as little resistance and self inductance as possible allowing PART G TO DO IT'S JOB as it so wonderfully does.

do you get my drift.

I love part G.

MM
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Last edited by marathonman; 10-28-2016 at 12:40 PM.
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  #39  
Old 10-28-2016, 12:36 PM
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Turning out to be such a beautiful Thread!!

Hello to All,

It is really encouraging to see so many great people gathering to accomplish same device...excellent!

@MM, sorry about your loss!!...but don't worry, you will make it up soon.

@Cornboy...Thanks for posting the Commutator place (EURTON ELECTRIC)where you ordered it...I just placed my order on the 16 elements, 1/2 inch shaft bore...so, am going to make a second -more compact- rotary switch now...

I have a 12 elements same type (vertical comm)...but not good, end up being same total contacts as the 20 reduced to 10 that I have installed now...You see as Figuera describes on drawing...the two output ports contacts must be twice the time, meaning two elements next to each others and 180 apart.

@Cadman: I love your Part G !! is excellent!...where did you get this Toroids?...could you post the place?
Now, if you allow me my opinion on your rotary switch...I think that is "too much of a motor" for that application my friend!!...I know the implications to set there a smaller shaft motor...cause I had to build on my lathe a specific reduction shaft plus small to bigger bearings to adapt it...I started with a 1/2 inch rod, which I bored a center hole and made an external male thread to insert a Dremel Chuck piece plus I built the outer tightening nut (had to get all the Tap and Die sets)...but this way I could easily install there different types of small motor bodies...I know it is quite a job, but it is worthy...if you have the possibilities to build the shaft reduction rig.

Now I will make either another power switch or just replace the commutator for one like yours and Cornboy...my roller bearings are not working well because they do not grab two FULL contacts at comm, like is supposed to (Make Before Brake)...this is the cause -I believe- that at high speeds it generates too many negative spikes like I have shown on videos.

Yesterday I got my brand new 60V/10 Amps PSU...which I am going to use just to run Part G and Primaries at around 50V/4 Amps Max.

I still have to set an additional bench for it plus get some higher gauge probes and clamps to hook it.

One important info I was reading at Thompson's Book on Electromagnets...is that a "Rule of Thumb" for Generators Exciters dimensions are based on Length to be about three times its thickness (never less)...As the books warns that "Flat Type" (Thickness being larger than Length, or "Disc, Flat Pancakes Shapes") Electromagnets are NOT good, because of the Higher Magnetic Losses (Leaks) between their own polarities by being so close.

I believe those above are very important info for our Primaries Core builds.


Regards to All


Ufopolitics
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  #40  
Old 10-28-2016, 01:21 PM
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Thumbs up

I to thought his motor was way overkill but i was not about to say otherwise.

UFOP;

First of all Thank you, being ripped off is so violating.

Second, if you look at the spacing of the vertical commutator you will notice it is very narrow and in my opinion will accommodate your roller brush. after viewing both zoomed in the roller seams to be able to span both contacts. even if you do get spikes it can easily be changed out. or even staggar the second rollor 1/32 or 1/16 inch either forward or backwards to have one make contact first then the second. ???

just something to consider my friend.

i to knew about the length to width ratio but i didn't know it was 3 to 1. i alway thought your field would only extend as far out as your length of core but i could be wrong. every magnet i tested, the magnetic field would only be detectable out as far as the length of the magnet. my two inch long neo's project a field detectable to 2 inches.


MM
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Last edited by marathonman; 10-28-2016 at 01:41 PM.
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  #41  
Old 10-28-2016, 02:21 PM
Cadman Cadman is offline
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MM,
Lock it up tight or nail it down, otherwise consider it gone. Sad isn't it? Sorry it had to happen to you. Sometimes it seems like the universe loves to kick a person when they're down, ya know?

That toroid winding pictured is temporary, just for tests. When it was wound I had no firm plan for the final configuration so I left plenty of wire hanging off. I'm thinking that when it comes time to rewind it I'll use a heavy gauge MTW stranded wire unless heating is an issue. Much more flexible and easier to wind.

@Ufo,
MM posted the core source a long time ago, Bridgeport Magnetics. These are what I have
Toroidal Core PN# 90
Very inexpensive at $19.75 each.

About my motor; I tried one of those cheap little 12V Goldmine motors and the amp draw was actually higher than this scooter motor, and it overheated at lower RPMs. So the scooter motor is actually a good choice for me, especially since I already had it. Overkill it may be but it runs long and cool.
Besides, if the generator can't spare 30 to 60 watts for the motor then what's the point? After all we're not trying to build the worlds most expensive night light.

CM
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  #42  
Old 10-28-2016, 02:30 PM
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Exclamation My Part G

And getting worse by the year. younger people now a days are sorry individuals. no class or shame at at all

1600 va total, sounds like someone actually listened.

The pic below is basically my design. the wire count is low as my core is 5 inches deep giving me a loop circumference of 12 inches and a length of around 16 feet. part G's Set N and S contacts are on the botton.
i ordered a new camera cable so as soon as it comes in i will post my part G and my primaries. cable cost 4.95 shipping included.
(sorry fellas)



[IMG][/IMG]


MM
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Last edited by marathonman; 10-28-2016 at 03:24 PM.
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  #43  
Old 10-28-2016, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marathonman View Post
UFOP;

First of all Thank you, being ripped off is so violating.
It is a terrible feeling...I have nightmares back and forth on that matter...even though I have CCTV Cams with Alarm System...plus I sleep with my "Insurance" which is a 40 Caliber Glock, with a 14 round long clip...

The feeling to arrive home and see it is done already...is a hack of a bad feeling.


Quote:
Originally Posted by marathonman View Post
Second, if you look at the spacing of the vertical commutator you will notice it is very narrow and in my opinion will accommodate your roller brush. after viewing both zoomed in the roller seams to be able to span both contacts. even if you do get spikes it can easily be changed out. or even staggar the second rollor 1/32 or 1/16 inch either forward or backwards to have one make contact first then the second. ???

just something to consider my friend.
Thanks, I will have to go in further detail about it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by marathonman View Post
i too knew about the length to width ratio but i didn't know it was 3 to 1. i always thought your field would only extend as far out as your length of core but i could be wrong. every magnet i tested, the magnetic field would only be detectable out as far as the length of the magnet. my two inch long neo's project a field detectable to 2 inches.


MM
Yes it was 3:1 ratio cited as a reference found by Du Moncel experiments (I believe)...

About the Spatial Volume of the Electromagnet...as you have been saying all along...it depends on its capacity and response to build a stronger field by low resistance and thick gauge wire.

Related to the length of field expansion...you must realize that it expands evenly at both poles and from the exact center of electromagnet core. This could be seen clearly by setting E-Magnet on top of color CRT...then running fluctuating currents.

In Figuera Flash Currents fluctuations plus Part G doing the job...we can afford to use those low resistance heavier gauge spec's...while not applicable to Exciter Fields on typical generators which are running Max at all times...so in order to avoid heating, they must have higher resistance / much finer wire...this also leads to higher Voltage requirement to raise the proper field to Induce Secondaries Fields.


Regards


Ufopolitics
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  #44  
Old 10-28-2016, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadman View Post

@Ufo,
MM posted the core source a long time ago, Bridgeport Magnetics. These are what I have
Toroidal Core PN# 90
Very inexpensive at $19.75 each.

About my motor; I tried one of those cheap little 12V Goldmine motors and the amp draw was actually higher than this scooter motor, and it overheated at lower RPMs. So the scooter motor is actually a good choice for me, especially since I already had it. Overkill it may be but it runs long and cool.
Besides, if the generator can't spare 30 to 60 watts for the motor then what's the point? After all we're not trying to build the worlds most expensive night light.

CM
Hello Cadman,

Thanks for link!!...btw, that site is kind of slow or is it me?

Yeah, some small motors, basically the ones for R/C Hobbies are wound with too heavy wire...for their size...they are batteries burners...but super fast...we do not need that...amps rises to skies in the minimal mechanical load...I used the Radio Shack type which is higher resistance wire and it don't climb up that fast.

But you are right...we should be able to afford moving that scooter motor and even an Imperial P56 Body...with the output generated...

But hey...MM is building such a "Night Light"...it is gonna shine like 12:00 Noon shiny and sunny day...on a midnight no moon darkness...

Just kidding MM...

I am gonna test first the Primary-Secondary Induction (In-Output) comparison (Proof of Main Concept)...using resistors first, till I get my Toroid for Part G.


Regards


Ufopolitics
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  #45  
Old 10-28-2016, 04:10 PM
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About Toroid Core...

Hey Cadman, MM,

I got a question...

Part# 120 is 1867 VA @ $32,97 (Spec's 3.25 ID/5.5 OD/2.0 HT)

Part# 90 is 824 VA @ $19.75 ea (2.5 ID/ 4.5 OD/ 1.6 HT) and we need two at least.

Can I get just one Part# 120 and exceed it for like 200VA?

Anyways Part G VA number is based on Primary Cores, so I cold make them bigger if needed, since straight rods I get them locally...


Thanks


Ufopolitics
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  #46  
Old 10-28-2016, 05:32 PM
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Exclamation Part G

Part G is the sum of all smaller part adding up to part G plus head room including all power used for electronics and or motor so yes it will be ok. you have to take into consideration of how many winding's your part G will use to get your proper currant window ....ie highs and lows. just remember it will not take a lot of winding's to get currant variation. i myself would go for the smaller toroid and stack them to get proper va rating.
unfortunately i haven't the math prowess to calculate that at this time. am working on that as we speak. both will work, you just need to decide on amperage used, wire size and number of turns.

i have fliers out for a geek math wiz but two have failed so far. so for now i am guessing but i know i am close. when i get my timing board assembled i will test it and go from there.

that is the best advice i can give for now.


MM
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Last edited by marathonman; 10-29-2016 at 08:08 AM.
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  #47  
Old 10-28-2016, 07:19 PM
Shadow119g Shadow119g is offline
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Thank you MM and UFO!
I will try out what I have because I have it, but I am really looking for more guidance.
I also just ordered the brushes and commutator like Cornboy and Cadman as I made an eight count commutator before.
Thanks again,
SHADOW
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  #48  
Old 10-28-2016, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marathonman View Post
My part G wire is .4 rectangle wire which might be a little to wide as we will see as i have only 16 winds but my core is 5 plus inches deep = a lot of core exposure. my primaries are 18 awg, two separate winding's.( parallel ) this is what i have and all i have. if i had the money and or wire i would rather wind my primaries with 14 awg but all i have is a 10 lb spool of 18 awg wire.

the reason my wire is so wide was i planed on a mechanical part G but changed my mind after i bought wire to switch to electronic timing to mimic brush rotation. also the commutator bars in figueras patent are actual thick winding"s on a core. my suspicion was confermed that the wire count was low from hanon's video and my own test i conducted thus confermed this to be true. 1/4 turn of the variac using DC was all it took to vary the currant.

the whole philosophy behind the madness is why shouldn't the primaries be the least ohmage as possible as part G controls the currant. so this is why the primaries should be lowest as possible to attain the highest magnetization as possible.

the primaries are specifically there to be "ELECTROMAGNETS", NOT GOVERN CURRANT so why not design them to do there job the greatest they can be. so basically if you can get away with it....zero ohms. imagine that. if i had three inch length copper coductor to wrap it with i would do it.

when the primaries are at peak currant, they are there for only 2.08 miliseconds (USA 60 hz) 2.5 miliseconds ( European 50 hz) at 16 figuera intervals. at this length of time almost no amount of currant can do damage to wires (WITHIN REASON) so wind your primaries to take advantage of this peak with no adverse affects. ie. biggest bang for your buck as to say.

part G was made to control the currant NOT THE PRIMARIES so thus we need to configure the primaries with as little resistance and self inductance as possible allowing PART G TO DO IT'S JOB as it so wonderfully does.

do you get my drift.

I love part G.

MM


Thanks MM, so what i gather from your explanation is that we are dealing with an almost dead short circuit for a very short time ?.

If that is the case we should ALL, have a heavy switch to engage the external power source, ONLY after the commutator is brought up to speed.

Also please correct me if i am wrong, the feedback from the primaries into part G creates a resistance to incoming external current?.

Just trying to get my head around the theory before i start my build.

Warm Regards Cornboy.
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  #49  
Old 10-28-2016, 10:26 PM
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Thumbs up Part G

CORNBOY;

QUOTE; "so what i gather from your explanation is that we are dealing with an almost dead short circuit for a very short time ?."

Yes in a sense when at N or S are high for 2 plus milliseconds for 50 or 60 Hz. this will be the bang part prom the primaries, peaking for max output but to short of a time for currant to do damage through heat.

QUOTE; "If that is the case we should ALL, have a heavy switch to engage the external power source, ONLY after the commutator is brought up to speed."

Yes, if using high voltage, if low voltage i would not worry about it.
The delay is only for seconds at most. also connection made from the output back to the field magnets through part G has to be separately operated off the output with it's own switch so you can turn it off or leave it on with or with out an external working load.

QUOTE; "Also please correct me if i am wrong, the feedback from the primaries into part G creates a resistance to incoming external current?."

yes, if referring to original starting supply and the second secondaries incoming pressure as it is only used to replace losses occurred from core, heat and wire losses which are little. it will self regulate if pressure drops. of course the starting supply can be removed.


SHADOW;

Very wise to follow these excellent builders if using mechanical switching keeping in mind all that i have revealed.


Figuera


MM
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Last edited by marathonman; 10-28-2016 at 10:29 PM.
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  #50  
Old 10-29-2016, 08:59 AM
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Thumbs up Eddy currants

According to my research the whole reason Figuera chose DC is that it is vastly superior to AC to power the electromagnets in this device. since he is not reversing the flow, the electromagnets it will not produce eddy currants like AC would that rob power from reverse currants and heat. thus by using DC he was left with extremely efficient electromagnets that not only do not reverse polarity (no eddy currant) but also no hysteresis to deal with. the graph below is an example of pure iron hysteresis curve. not only is the curve unbelievably thin but there is no reversal of currant so the electromagnet operates in the top quadrant remaining extremely efficient at all times, unreachable by AC. so we have no hysteresis or eddy currants in the primaries, that is why Figuera chose pure iron for his primaries, biggest bang for the buck. but unfortunately pure iron cost are completely outrageous and we are forced to use laminated cores

unfortunately we have both in the secondary core so it would be advisable to use laminated as eddies and hysteresis are live and kicking. this is why the primaries and secondaries are separate.

last pic is for calculating induction in a toroid. i am thinking Figuera calculated his inductance statically then varied it dynamically as the brush moves. this would not change the currant reduction calculations just changing contact points dynamically on the fly thus constant currant variatiing in complete unison.
i have been confused on how to calculate induction in part G but no more. think about it, why would the calculation change just because you changed contact points, they wouldn't. as long as your static calculations in part G are correct the dynamic currant increase/decrease remain the same. all you are doing is changing contact points over time.

just to tell you how much money i save on wire. at Temco, they want $133.00 for 10 lbs of 18 awg Gp 200 wire. at EIS i paid $68.00 for 9.8 lbs of the same. that is crazy savings if you ask me. plus EIS warehouse is only a few miles from my house. guess who i shop at. be fore warned EIS website is horse and buggy slow as in Amish country.

https://shop.eis-inc.com/sap(bD1lbiZ...?prod_area=442



[IMG][/IMG]



MM
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Last edited by marathonman; 10-29-2016 at 12:03 PM.
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  #51  
Old 10-29-2016, 11:51 AM
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Thumbs up Opinion not needed

Post was deleted for integity of thread.
[IMG][/IMG]

thank you and have a nice day
MM
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Last edited by marathonman; 11-03-2016 at 08:31 PM.
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Old 10-29-2016, 03:08 PM
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Old 10-29-2016, 03:58 PM
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Unhappy Pics

UPDATE TO ALL;

Postimage dot org is going down soon be prepared.


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Old 10-29-2016, 04:09 PM
Cadman Cadman is offline
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Meanwhile ...

Since we all seem to be occupied with building a switching device or waiting on parts I would like to present some research on the inducer or primary field winding itself.

To summarize the relevant parameters given by Marathonman:
1. primaries need to have low self induction as fast response time in essential.
2. lowest ohms as possible.

Additionally I would like to add:
A. Have the least inductive discharge as practical
B. Have the lowest resistance.
C. Consume the least wattage.

For the example let's assume a requirement of 6000 amp turns, 18 GA wire, 576 turns, and a 4 long coil.

The usual method of winding a generator field coil is to wire it as a single coil. A coil constructed like this would be 3.671 ohms and require a current of 10.4167 amps. Of course this is not practical as that amount of current will destroy the wire. Just for example say it could take the current. The voltage required to drive that current through the resistance would be 38.2151 volts and the watts would be 397.8 watts. Coil heating would be problematic from the wattage alone. This coil would also have a high self inductance and produce a large inductive discharge.

What I would like to present is a way to wind this particular coil in such a manner that it will meet all the above material and performance parameters without difficulty. It will use the same amount and size of wire, provide the requisite amp turns, use a fraction of the voltage and consume only a little over 44 watts instead of nearly 400 watts. The inductive discharge will also be reduced.

Shall I proceed?

CM
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Old 10-29-2016, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadman View Post
Meanwhile ...

What I would like to present is a way to wind this particular coil in such a manner that it will meet all the above material and performance parameters without difficulty. It will use the same amount and size of wire, provide the requisite amp turns, use a fraction of the voltage and consume only a little over 44 watts instead of nearly 400 watts. The inductive discharge will also be reduced.

Shall I proceed?

CM
Absolutely!!...I am all eyes...

Go for it CM!


Regards


Ufopolitics
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Old 10-29-2016, 04:40 PM
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Winding Energy Method...

@Cadman,

I am anxious to see that Method to achieve such energy savings...however, always consider IF it will generate the same stronger magnetic field as the "expensive method" will do...


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Old 10-29-2016, 05:18 PM
Cadman Cadman is offline
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To give proper credit I must say that Doug1 at OU opened my eyes to this a couple of years ago. To date I haven't seen it presented in coherent detail.

To summarize so far:
18 AWG wire (6.384 ohms / 1000 ft), 0.006384 ohm / ft
576 turns @ 10.4167A = 6000.02 amp turns (use 10.41A)
576 turns = 575 ft
575 ft = 3.671 ohms

For a single coil of 3.671 ohm resistance
V = I * R
V = 10.41 * 3.671 = 38.2151 V
38.2151 * 10.41 = 397.819 watts
-----

A tested method to reduce sparking was presented in the book The Electromagnet and Electromagnetic Mechanism in the 19th century. Of the different methods presented this one was ranked second for effectiveness. The method was to subdivide the coil into individual layers. This is NOT a twisted multi-filar coil. Each layer(s) is wound as a single coil with it's ends connected to opposite polarities. The coil layers are connected in parallel to each other. This results in each coil segment being slightly different lengths with the shortest length in the first layer and the longest in the last layer, each layer increasing in resistance from inner to outer. This slightly staggers the time involved with the inductive discharge and reduces the sparking.

To simplify calculations I present each coil as being equal in length. I am also using two layers for each coil. If single layers were used the wattage would be even less. I chose two layers simply to bring the voltage requirement into a more practical range for myself.

The key to all of this is, the amperage per turn is only a small fraction of the total amperage required.

This coil will have 96 turns per layer, 6 layers, 576 turns total. A double layer having 192 turns.
-----------
Parallel coil windings
96 turns per layer, 192 turns in 3 double layers

10.41 A / 576 turns = .01808 A per turn

.006384 * 192 = 1.2257 ohms per double layer
.01818 * 192 = 3.4714 A per double layer
V = I * R
3.4714 * 1.2257 = 4.2549 V
Each double layer = 3.4714 amp @ 4.2549 volt, 14.7705 watts
14.7705 watts * 3 double layers = 44.31 watts

(calculate the parallel resistance)
Rtotal = 1/((1/R1)+(1/R2)+(1/R3))...
1 / 1.2257 = 0.81586
0.81586 * 3 = 2.44758
1 / 2.44758 = 0.40856 ohms parallel
I = V / R
4.2549 / 0.40856 = 10.4143 A, 44.31 watts
-----------
Each individual coil segment is now subject to only 3.47 amps at the peak maximums.
Current from the sine wave is well within the bounds of the coil wire.
Current for each turn is still 0.01808 amp and voltage has dropped to 4.25 volts.

This is presented in the hope that it will be useful and confirmed or disproved through independent testing.

Regards,
CM
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Old 10-29-2016, 05:42 PM
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Right

CADMAN;

18 awg chart.


QUOTE; "This slightly staggers the time involved with the inductive discharge and reduces the sparking."

reduces sparking, i thought that was make before break was for and this will also reduce inductive kick to part G. ????

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Last edited by marathonman; 10-30-2016 at 02:31 PM.
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Old 10-29-2016, 05:57 PM
Cadman Cadman is offline
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MM,

Yes??

Irms = 3.4714 / 1.4142 = 2.455

Amps @ 2000A per in^2 = 2.55
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Old 10-29-2016, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadman View Post
To give proper credit I must say that Doug1 at OU opened my eyes to this a couple of years ago. To date I haven't seen it presented in coherent detail.

To summarize so far:
18 AWG wire (6.384 ohms / 1000 ft), 0.006384 ohm / ft
576 turns @ 10.4167A = 6000.02 amp turns (use 10.41A)
576 turns = 575 ft
575 ft = 3.671 ohms

For a single coil of 3.671 ohm resistance
V = I * R
V = 10.41 * 3.671 = 38.2151 V
38.2151 * 10.41 = 397.819 watts
-----

A tested method to reduce sparking was presented in the book The Electromagnet and Electromagnetic Mechanism in the 19th century. Of the different methods presented this one was ranked second for effectiveness. The method was to subdivide the coil into individual layers. This is NOT a twisted multi-filar coil. Each layer(s) is wound as a single coil with it's ends connected to opposite polarities. The coil layers are connected in parallel to each other. This results in each coil segment being slightly different lengths with the shortest length in the first layer and the longest in the last layer, each layer increasing in resistance from inner to outer. This slightly staggers the time involved with the inductive discharge and reduces the sparking.

To simplify calculations I present each coil as being equal in length. I am also using two layers for each coil. If single layers were used the wattage would be even less. I chose two layers simply to bring the voltage requirement into a more practical range for myself.

The key to all of this is, the amperage per turn is only a small fraction of the total amperage required.

This coil will have 96 turns per layer, 6 layers, 576 turns total. A double layer having 192 turns.
-----------
Parallel coil windings
96 turns per layer, 192 turns in 3 double layers

10.41 A / 576 turns = .01808 A per turn

.006384 * 192 = 1.2257 ohms per double layer
.01818 * 192 = 3.4714 A per double layer
V = I * R
3.4714 * 1.2257 = 4.2549 V
Each double layer = 3.4714 amp @ 4.2549 volt, 14.7705 watts
14.7705 watts * 3 double layers = 44.31 watts

(calculate the parallel resistance)
Rtotal = 1/((1/R1)+(1/R2)+(1/R3))...
1 / 1.2257 = 0.81586
0.81586 * 3 = 2.44758
1 / 2.44758 = 0.40856 ohms parallel
I = V / R
4.2549 / 0.40856 = 10.4143 A, 44.31 watts
-----------
Each individual coil segment is now subject to only 3.47 amps at the peak maximums.
Current from the sine wave is well within the bounds of the coil wire.
Current for each turn is still 0.01808 amp and voltage has dropped to 4.25 volts.

This is presented in the hope that it will be useful and confirmed or disproved through independent testing.

Regards,
CM

Very interesting Cadman,

I have some questions as to understand the "geometry" of your method kind of graphically in my mind...

Horizontal Layers: Are the Layers wound longitudinally, comprehending all core length?...then stacking one on top of the other?

Vertical Layers: Or are Layers wound to gain in Height, while being short in length?...then aligning next to each others from start to end of core?

Thanks


Regards


Ufopolitics
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