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  #331  
Old 01-02-2017, 02:50 PM
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marathonman marathonman is offline
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Unhappy Drained

I will be taking a short break as i am Physically drained. having trouble sleeping and getting up as all the BS is taking it's toll.

Good move cadman and thank you for your kind words.
see you all at a later date.
I must rest now.

MM
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  #332  
Old 01-06-2017, 02:27 PM
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Thumbs up Part G

Last night i slept the best i have in a month, even drooled on the pillow.

I think everyone is having trouble with part G because of the Inadequate amount of Induction from their small cores. Figuera used an Iron cylinder insulated and embedded with thick wire that he calls commutator bars. thus i don't see any reason we are on the wrong foot with the commutator as his signal would of been about the same as ours with the commutator VS. the direct brush contact. it will still be stair stepped no matter how you do it but the secondary does not see this as it will be smoother
the three reasons he used thick wire was for One, the least amount of losses associated with resistance as ANY inductor has losses associalted with resistance so what is the best way to reduce it??? thick wire reduces resistance. two, it had a better interaction with the core (Inductance), and three, it was the power supply after initial starting so it had to be hefty as all lower parts of the branch add up to the final supply plus headroom just like ANY power supply would have to.

the pic below is of an Iron Cylinder, notice how much more surface area you have compared to the toroid below it. yes Figuera used a cylinder of Iron in which his loop diameter of his thick wire were VERY LARGE and having much, much more surface contact as a toroid. of course it was insulated and embedded.





thus we are left with either using a toroid with a larger amount of winding's in which we can increase the depth like i did or you can use a alternator core like Doug did that has much more surface area then one toroid.
both will get you a higher surface area in which to have higher Inductance.
EDIT;
I am not saying a toroid will not work, quite the contrary, it will work just add a lot more winding's.

Bottom line is Self Inductance talks and BS walks.
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  #333  
Old 01-06-2017, 05:07 PM
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Thumbs up Btw

Just so you people know what is going on with part G , the Primaries and the Secondaries the pic below always helps. the peaks are that side primaries high.



MM
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  #334  
Old 01-06-2017, 07:19 PM
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Time to Keep building and testing... :)

Hello to All,

I am finished with Part G rewiring with 10 awg and more turns than I had before (like 20)...now I have like 44...

But I wanted to share what I have found maybe to be useful for those using bare wire...and do not want to epoxy your setting.

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

I used Motor Hedges in the shape of a "U" alternated between each wire loop...and besides isolating wires, it would help to maintain a separation.

I am also testing another configuration of Secondary to see which one will render more Induction...

[IMG][/IMG]

A shorter Core for Secondary, not only will shorten the Repulsion Magnetic Field sweep area...but, because of getting both Primaries closer...a Much Compact and stronger density repulse field would be generated by the two North Poles.

One thing that I HIGHLY recommend guys...is to build your set in order that you could take it apart easily...use tape, bolts, nuts, taps and die parts...screw, unscrew cores, etc,etc...in order that different types could be exchanged or swapped easily without loosing much time...but, basically not to waste materials...like when you build for a lasting and already tested and working device...We do not have -at least I don't- a huge budget (I only wish..) so we can't afford to waste wire and other materials, including TIME... every time we make one set and it just don't work "as expected"...


Regards and great build!!


Ufopolitics
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  #335  
Old 01-06-2017, 09:04 PM
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About preliminary tests...

Hello to All,

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

I am still not happy with signal...but, it maybe brush bad contacts as NOT contacting two elements...but it is going negative....either that or too much noise from PSU...have to check.

I tested the system and works fine...I have the linear PSU supplying V&A...However, due to low resistance, still will not allow me to reach even 10 volts at like 9 Amps...I thought a linear would do it...but do not.

However, I have noticed that as I increase small motor speed, voltage starts rising up, amps remains same at PSU...As Induction greatly increases...but unfortunately I have an issue with brush...and mechanical contact that at certain speed starts sparking big time...seems it is loosing strong contact (maybe a spring went bad)...besides notice that it is not contacting two elements but barely one...no good...so unfortunately I will have to take it apart and repair-adjust.

I want to take motor close to 3000 to 3600 operating RPM's to be able to evaluate and measure the full operational system...

Sorry about that.

In general Part G is working fine, fields are fluctuating great and strong and at the top speed I was able to drive it, which is not much...system did not sparks...nor gets hot at all. Primaries a bit warm, that's it...meaning perfectly stable.


Done for the day of tests.


Regards


Ufopolitics
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  #336  
Old 01-07-2017, 02:00 AM
GlenWV GlenWV is offline
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Another Commutator supplier

Greetings all:

I found another commutator manufacturer today: COMMUTATORS.COM

...and, submitted an inquiry via their page here: AKARD COMMUTATOR OF TENNESSEE (ACT) – Commutator Quote

Then, I got to looking at the 'vertical face' commutator and will have to try something like that, too.

I visited a motor rewind shop while down in the coal fields this week and the guy at the counter turned me onto a couple of places that have some things we can use on this project.

One is square magnet wire of sizes that can be bought by the pound in small quantities like what it would take to wind a toroid. (Beats buying 250 pounds at a time.)

Another thing is that the flat, ribbon copper can also be purchased in small quantities for winding primaries. The insulating paper is also available.

The guy that I talked to down in Kentucky made it sound like the flat copper was fairly cheap, so I'm going to try one set of primaries this way. The Kentucky guy told me of a place about an hour and a half from me that does the same stuff, so I'll go see them in a couple of weeks while working near there.

My thought is to go ahead and strip the other two toroidal transformers and stack the cores on what I already have. Then, get some 5mm, or so, square magnet wire (insulated) and wind the thing with as many turns as can be wound. Taps can be made where necessary and/or the top can be surfaced and attacked directly like an autotransformer.

I have enough copper sheet to wind a couple of primaries, but am wondering if I should make the bobbins with a rim greater than the 1 inch that MM is using. (Chime in here, sir(s).) Let's say, two bobbins with 1.5 inch rims filled with thin copper sheet.

Another thought on winding the toroid: Take the #6 bare copper off, flatten it out some with a hammer, then cut lengths to mimic MM's use of the 1/4" wide stuff. The copper could be doubled up on each side, using four pieces per unit. (I'll probably have to come up with some more cores and try this too.)

So there's where I'm at, and suggestions are welcome. School is back in session now so my guys will be making bobbins and sawing the 8 foot bar of 3 inch stuff into core length material.

Again, I recommend visiting your local vocational/technical schools and making friends with the machine tool instructor. I've found them to be helpful and interested in having their students participate in alternative energy projects. Makes good press for them.

The down side is that you have to be patient about getting things done, as they have their own schedules and there is a learning curve there. Sometimes you get put on an advisory board and have to attend a couple of meetings a year. All good.

Keep going guys -

glenWV
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  #337  
Old 01-07-2017, 09:11 AM
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Fello Ufo,

use a 3 microfarat capacitor parallel to the kummutator.

Lota
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  #338  
Old 01-07-2017, 04:45 PM
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Thumbs up Winding

Wow really sounds like you have things in order. i really don't think you need such a large rim though but it can be trimmed if not needed.
as for the pounding the wire flat, i would not do that as it is not only a pain in the ass but it it really not needed. just use the wire as is but more winding's. even if you have to many winds you can always take away through the adjustment phase.

nice size core, at 5 inch cores that would give you 6 complete sets or what ever you decide.possibly distributing the last 6 inches between the primaries.??

good idea about the trade school, i guess i never thought of that.

Keep up the good work.

Been in bed for two days with the flu. really sucks.

MM
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  #339  
Old 01-08-2017, 02:11 PM
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Exclamation Signal

UFOP;
The reason you are getting erratic behavior is what we talked about on the other thread about a week or so ago. your primaries and secondaries are completely saturated. try dialing down on the voltage and amperage to a small amount then work your way up. this was also verified from Doug as to the cause.

also according to the info i pm'ed you about that refers to your brushes. as he went through the same thing so i would heed the advice from him. the advice seams much more secure and heavy duty from what you are presently using.

MM
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  #340  
Old 01-08-2017, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marathonman View Post
UFOP;
The reason you are getting erratic behavior is what we talked about on the other thread about a week or so ago. your primaries and secondaries are completely saturated. try dialing down on the voltage and amperage to a small amount then work your way up. this was also verified from Doug as to the cause.

also according to the info i pm'ed you about that refers to your brushes. as he went through the same thing i would heed the advice from him. the advice seams much more secure and heavy duty from what you are presently using.

MM
Good Morning MM,

Yes I got it thanks!!

And yes, absolutely I am having big time issues with the brush and its not holding tight at higher speeds, actually it separates from contacts(Amps drop to zero)...besides it was NOT touching two elements at comm.

I am working on that as I write here now...but the way to go here is with VERTICAL COMM-BRUSH...Period.

Many thanks and please tell Doug thanks for his correction to my set up


Regards


Ufopolitics
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  #341  
Old 01-08-2017, 02:28 PM
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Thumbs up Relay

Sure thing friend, i'll make sure he gets the message.

MM
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  #342  
Old 01-08-2017, 03:00 PM
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The Reality on the System...

Thanks MM,

However, besides all mechanical issues, there is one fact that I would like You to also consult with Doug...

As you know I have tried with the only existing Two Regulated Power Supplies invented so far, switched and linear..and none will allow me to rise Volts at the requested rate...amperage I can easily dial it up...but not the voltage.

And this is because we need at least certain operational resistance within the exciting system...and it is not just about adding a resistor in between...that would not work, because I have tried it.

As Lota wrote (Thanks Lota!!)...I am gonna try a low (3-5) Mfd AC Capacitor between both comm terminals to N-S...maybe this will allow us to rise V...because Voltage would flash between condenser plates...i don't know...only testing will tell us.


Regards



Ufopolitics
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  #343  
Old 01-08-2017, 03:04 PM
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Parallel Cap...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lota View Post
Fello Ufo,

use a 3 microfarat capacitor parallel to the kummutator.

Lota

Thanks Lota!!


I surely will try that...you think that will allow me to rise Voltage at PSU?

I am guessing it would need to be a non polarized or AC Capacitor...right?

And installed between both terminals out to primaries...right?


Thanks for the suggestion!


Regards


Ufopolitics
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  #344  
Old 01-08-2017, 05:01 PM
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Hello,
AC 400V. Capacity 2-5 micro. you have to test it.

lota
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  #345  
Old 01-09-2017, 08:31 PM
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Exclamation N & S Com

UFOP;
since the signal coming from N & S are the same signal just a higher intensity than the other, what good would an AC cap do here other than being detrimental.
or am i just missing something here as i thought we were using DC.???

as for Doug, well that can be a hit or miss as to what kind of mood he is in. ill ask him anyways.

it would be much more beneficial if he was here to tell you, if you know what i mean.


MM
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  #346  
Old 01-09-2017, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marathonman View Post
UFOP;
since the signal coming from N & S are the same signal just a higher intensity than the other, what good would an AC cap do here other than being detrimental.
or am i just missing something here as i thought we were using DC.???
Hello MM,

An AC Cap installed between both terminals could create a Voltage Potential Difference, allowing me to rise Voltage at my LINEAR PSU.

See what I wrote before IS CRITICAL, maybe you did not read it completely...but the System having so low resistance NO ONE can simply dial any reasonable power in V & A to drive the magnetic fields which would create induction...

I thought a Linear PSU would do...but it DOES NOT either...behaving the same as the Switching one before.

Maybe when we connect ALL Primaries to be at our system...then it should do it. But then how could we be able to check the correct ratio primary to secondary on a single module?

Quote:
Originally Posted by marathonman View Post
as for Doug, well that can be a hit or miss as to what kind of mood he is in. ill ask him anyways.

it would be much more beneficial if he was here to tell you, if you know what i mean.


MM
I believe I saw Doug1 Comment on other Thread...was that him?...if so, he may chime in and tell Us both...what to do here.


Take care


Ufopolitics
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  #347  
Old 01-10-2017, 01:53 PM
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Exclamation Don't Hold Breath

As i have stated before, yes i read all posts completely and i am aware we are dealing with little to no resistance and that is reeking havic on your power supplies.
it seams to me the cap is just a band aid to the real cause of the problem in which the real demon or culprit has not come to light yet. it is something i over looked or missed in the process.

I must ask you is your system running when you apply the power and are your primaries still getting saturated. i was thinking that if so your primaries are to strong and need less winding's as what you have is pure saturation and or you still are not getting the proper currant reduction with your part G for some reason.

As for Doug, yes it was him. i would not get your hopes up as he is like a bat in the night, striking only when he feels the need and reveals only what he wants to.
Wish he would join us on this thread.

They shipped me the wrong commutator. a horizontal was sent instead of a vertical. so i have a free horizontal commutator if any one wants it or needs a cool paper weight. i guess i will have to pay for the right one this time as i don't think another freebe will be sent. Arg ! even though i said i would post all their information on this thread about their part and web site if it worked out. i will find out today if the vertical will be sent as a sample.

MM
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  #348  
Old 01-10-2017, 03:15 PM
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Facts happening in our system...

Quote:
Originally Posted by marathonman View Post
As i have stated before, yes i read all posts completely and i am aware we are dealing with little to no resistance and that is reeking havic on your power supplies.
it seams to me the cap is just a band aid to the real cause of the problem in which the real demon or culprit has not come to light yet. it is something i over looked or missed in the process.
Hello MM,

Related to the Capacitor...most Generators use a Cap on their exciter system, and it is NOT to avoid any sparks, but to start the inducing field from zero and so, added to reminiscent magnetism on core it starts self energizing and as speed goes up it reaches operational V & A therefore, generating the required magnetic field to do the inducing job on the Rotor Field (Primaries in our case).

Figuera Device basic concept is just about moving the Magnetic Field without the need of a mechanical Prime Mover...other than that fact...the rest is just to follow the typical structure and circuitry from a known Generator. And what I basically mean here, is that a Cap is a common, typical component utilized in most generators exciting system.

Related to Low Resistance and PSU's...we can not fool Ohms Law here based on Inductance to regulate our currents...PSU's are designed to work based on Ohm's Law and completely neglect to recognize the inductance generated on the exciting system.

And so, if a small capacitance AC cap does the job, as allowing me to dial voltage up...then BE VERY WELCOME!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by marathonman View Post
I must ask you is your system running when you apply the power and are your primaries still getting saturated. i was thinking that if so your primaries are to strong and need less winding's as what you have is pure saturation and or you still are not getting the proper currant reduction with your part G for some reason.
I would say my primaries are way under reaching saturation levels MM. I can see fields fluctuating and induction shown at secondary, but there must be a specific strong field to be able to generate higher induction at high speeds...and so, if I am not able to dial the proper Voltage Up...that strong field does not take place, period.

This system, as any generator out there, requires a high operating speed to produce the induction at secondaries at the proper frequency. And so, if the field is not strong enough, then at high speeds the weak field literally "fades away" and we loose induction higher output levels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marathonman View Post
As for Doug, yes it was him. i would not get your hopes up as he is like a bat in the night, striking only when he feels the need and reveals only what he wants to.
Wish he would join us on this thread.
Yes, definitively it would be GREAT if Doug1 decides to join here!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by marathonman View Post
They shipped me the wrong commutator. a horizontal was sent instead of a vertical. so i have a free horizontal commutator if any one wants it or needs a cool paper weight. i guess i will have to pay for the right one this time as i don't think another freebe will be sent. Arg ! even though i said i would post all their information on this thread about their part and web site if it worked out. i will find out today if the vertical will be sent as a sample.

MM
I ordered yesterday the flat commutator...Eurton Electric returned my money the first time I placed an order long ago...they told me did not have it...and did not care to offer the following level up...which is about same thing...this time I made sure I called before placing the order, got the name of the guy at parts dept...then call him back to give him my order number...they only had one...finally it is on its way to me...

We really need to test and observe this system behavior at Higher Speeds...

That is one thing which is setting me behind the eight ball...I can not reach higher speeds with the set up I have...I used the strap clock spring type (like Doug suggested), and make them screwing pressure adjustable...and still separates by centrifugal forces at high speeds plus small motor heats up by being too tight.

Vertical Flat Commutators...or the way Figuera had originally (sweeping from inside-out) are the only two ways we can have an operating system which does not looses contact at high speeds.


Take care Friend.



Ufopolitics
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  #349  
Old 01-10-2017, 06:26 PM
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Thumbs up

Understand and agreed.
or on top like Doug did which can also be vertical if on side.

You get PM??

MM
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  #350  
Old 01-10-2017, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
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You get PM??

MM
Yes MM, I did, even though I had to clean my mailbox was almost full...98%

I am working on a centrifugal mechanism which pushes brush down at high speeds...kind like a centrifugal governor type...I just hate to dump so many hours of work on my set up...


take care


Ufopolitics
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  #351  
Old 01-11-2017, 03:31 AM
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Thumbs up Vertical

Like you said less to worry about in the vertical commutator.

MM
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  #352  
Old 01-11-2017, 02:24 PM
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A Nice Flat Commutator...

Hello to All,

I have found a nice Flat Commutator, it has 32 elements, and very nice built:

[IMG][/IMG]

It is unique on its class and comes from a Honda Motorcycle, the CBR600RR early models Starter Motor...and I got a used one from EBAY...at $19.00 USD plus shipping USPS like 12.00.

I still have the Eurton one which is on its way...but I am planning on building a tubing-like set, with also a second vertical brush to a flat slip ring...very compact.


Regards


Ufopolitics
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  #353  
Old 01-11-2017, 02:43 PM
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Thumbs up Commutator

Yes sir, with the clip mechanism Doug was referring to and that commutator , i think UFOP you just might have a winner.

MM
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  #354  
Old 01-11-2017, 09:33 PM
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Sounds Great UFO, hope it goes well for you, being able to dial up the RPM without counter weights etc, will simplify testing for you.

I am still wire hunting, will join in soon.

Regards Cornboy.
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  #355  
Old 01-12-2017, 04:26 PM
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Exclamation Commutator

Well Toledo commutator deal fell through. those bonehead tried to convince me their comm's were heavy duty. after careful study of the drawing they sent me i decided to pass on their crap. so i guess i am stuck with the 19.50 Vertical one previously posted.

Hey Glen;
Would love to see a pic of that 3 inch core you have, drool, drool.

MM
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  #356  
Old 01-14-2017, 04:51 PM
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Thumbs up Primary cores

Was BS'ing around today with nothing to do. just playing around with the magnetic fields from my primaries and wow what a field i am getting. very good intense field even from my little two inch diam cores. really looking forward to Glen's results from his three inch cores.
there is a big difference in va output from two to three inch cores whether it be round or square.

when i can get the material i will be shooting for a three inch square laminated core like 6 inches long for primaries and 5 inch for secondaries but we have a lot of ground to cover tell i or rather we get to that point.

hope everyone is enjoying some quiet times on their days off.

MM
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Last edited by marathonman; 01-14-2017 at 04:53 PM.
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  #357  
Old 01-15-2017, 01:56 PM
Shadow119g Shadow119g is offline
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Hope

MM
I sure hope your electronic part "G" will work!
Building the rotating commutator is a pain in the
butt.
HA HA
I'll get it done anyway.
Shadow
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Old 01-15-2017, 03:00 PM
GlenWV GlenWV is offline
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Update

Greetings all:

@MM: I will visit my machinist/teacher friend this week and get pics of the 3"core material.

Also, I found another commutator place and posted it, (found it!): COMMUTATORS.COM

These folks look to be the 'real deal', I hope.

My plan is to get one set of cores cut and use them to experiment with. I'll wind one set of primaries with thin copper sheet, and the secondary with #14 gauge wire and see how that plays. (need a bit of 3/8 brass all- thread rod, too!)

It warmed up enough to work outside yesterday, so I started unwinding another toroidal transformer to get it's core. I hope to finish that today and stack it on the other two.

Then, in the next couple of weeks, I hope to get down to 'WV Coil Company'. These folks supposedly stock both square magnet wire and thin copper sheet. Again supposedly, these materials are sold by the pound.

If all works out, I'll purchase enough square magnet wire to wind the 3 layer toroid tight. If the copper sheet works best for primaries, then I'll get enough material to do all the primaries.

The commutators.com folks have vertical face commutators, so I'm going to seek a 36 bar commutator from them. I think those folks can make whatever a person wants.

Keep at it guys!!

glenWV
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  #359  
Old 01-17-2017, 10:52 PM
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marathonman marathonman is offline
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Exclamation Electronics

Shadow;
I had an veteran electronic's person check out my board and he had seen no flaws and liked my design. i have always wanted from the start to do both and that is exactly what i am doing.

Nailed a Dish network interview and will start next week for training as other fell smooth apart. what this means is i will have money flowing in to finish my build and electronics.

i want to test with commutator first to make sure my part G is operating properly and or work out the bugs then switch to electronic switching. i have 15 feet of rectangle wire left and 35 feet of 10 awg as back up so i think i am good.
can't wait to test my part G, the suspense is killing me.

pic below is what i am working on right now.



MM
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Last edited by marathonman; 01-17-2017 at 11:05 PM.
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Old 01-18-2017, 06:46 PM
Shadow119g Shadow119g is offline
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Great!!

Sounds great to me....still working on two mechanical part "G's"

Good luck!
Shadow
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