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  #1  
Old 09-05-2016, 02:32 PM
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vidbid vidbid is offline
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Thumbs up Miller Colson Magnetic Motor



*U.S. Patent No. 8,487,484 B1* World's first working, practical, and patented magnetic engine. For more information contact Sonny Miller, Inventor and designer, by e-mail at:

cal500llc@gmail.com

or by phone at:

+1 (229) 821-3067

Credits:

Marc Miller, Alexander Miller, Mike Kilroy [Kilroy Corp. Electronics], Walter Duft PA Patents, Ray Tobin - Mechanic, Jan Hawk [Hawk Diesel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2JTwbIpf6o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWggsnpEk_s

https://patents.google.com/patent/US8487484B1/en


Legal status: Active

Application number: US13421219

Inventors:
  • Harold L. Miller, Jr.
  • Andrew E. Colson, Jr.

Current Assignee: Torque Multipliers LLC

Original Assignee: Torque Multipliers LLC

Priority date: 2012-03-15

Filing date: 2012-03-15

Publication date: 2013-07-16

Grant date: 2013-07-16

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patent Abstract
A magnetic drive apparatus includes first and second magnet carriers carrying first and second permanent magnet arrangements. An intermediate magnet carrier disposed between the first and second magnet carriers carries a third permanent magnet arrangement. The magnet carriers are arranged for rotation relative to each other such that the magnet arrangements produce magnetic interactions that result in power stroke forces causing the magnet carriers to undergo relative reciprocation in first and second stroke directions during power zone portions of the relative rotation. The magnetic interactions impart substantially no power stroke forces during dead zone portions of the relative rotation. The dead zones include magnet carrier relative rotation positions wherein opposing magnetic poles are mutually coaxially aligned but produce a substantially equal balance of push and pull magnetic forces. The apparatus may be synchronized so that the dead zones coincide with top dead center and bottom dead center relative reciprocation positions.
Information about the Company:

Company Name: TORQUE MULTIPLIERS, LLC

File Number: 0600370658

Filing State: New Jersey (NJ)

Filing Status: Unknown

Filing Date: February 1, 2011

Company Age: 5 Years, 7 Months (as of Sept. 6, 2016)

Principal Address: Watchung, NJ 07069

Size & Types of Magnets: N 42 2 in x 4 in 800 lbs pull ea. Sonny 24 pcs

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Last edited by vidbid; 09-24-2016 at 06:22 AM. Reason: add company info
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  #2  
Old 09-05-2016, 04:05 PM
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Ufopolitics Ufopolitics is offline
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Long time Vidbid!!

Hey Vidbid,

You have been gone for a while...and now just showed up to "drop by" a Motion Perpetual Machine??!!

OMG, What are all the Skeptics gonna do now?

Where are they all gonna go?

Why you do this to them?

Are they finally going to Re-Write Physics?

By the way, I saw the video, nice Magnet Engine, I wonder how much each neo's will cost...and I see like four on each disc on video.

According to Patent is like six on each disc...and there are three discs on each wheel drive, two stationary and one rotating...so far that is what I have noticed.

So, it could work on just four per disc.

Love the spinning wheel with the Counter-weights on the first vid at 90 to disc magnets shaft, love how it self accelerates!

Anyways, it is good to see you back around here


Regards


Ufopolitics
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Last edited by Ufopolitics; 09-05-2016 at 04:12 PM.
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  #3  
Old 09-05-2016, 05:44 PM
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Ufopolitics Ufopolitics is offline
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Same balanced magnetic forces...

Well according to Patent Abstract:

Quote:
Patent Abstract

A magnetic drive apparatus includes first and second magnet carriers carrying first and second permanent magnet arrangements. An intermediate magnet carrier disposed between the first and second magnet carriers carries a third permanent magnet arrangement. The magnet carriers are arranged for rotation relative to each other such that the magnet arrangements produce magnetic interactions that result in power stroke forces causing the magnet carriers to undergo relative reciprocation in first and second stroke directions during power zone portions of the relative rotation. The magnetic interactions impart substantially no power stroke forces during dead zone portions of the relative rotation. The dead zones include magnet carrier relative rotation positions wherein opposing magnetic poles are mutually coaxially aligned but produce a substantially equal balance of push and pull magnetic forces. The apparatus may be synchronized so that the dead zones coincide with top dead center and bottom dead center relative reciprocation positions.
Identical "Balancing" approach as MadMack utilizes on his Magnetic Motor Disclosure...


Coincidence... or is it the way to build Magnetic Motors?


Regards


Ufopolitics
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  #4  
Old 09-06-2016, 12:05 AM
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vidbid vidbid is offline
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Thumbs up Thanks, UFO!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
Hey Vidbid,

You have been gone for a while...and now just showed up to "drop by" a Motion Perpetual Machine??!!

OMG, What are all the Skeptics gonna do now?

Where are they all gonna go?

Why you do this to them?

Are they finally going to Re-Write Physics?

By the way, I saw the video, nice Magnet Engine, I wonder how much each neo's will cost...and I see like four on each disc on video.

According to Patent is like six on each disc...and there are three discs on each wheel drive, two stationary and one rotating...so far that is what I have noticed.

So, it could work on just four per disc.

Love the spinning wheel with the Counter-weights on the first vid at 90 to disc magnets shaft, love how it self accelerates!

Anyways, it is good to see you back around here


Regards


Ufopolitics
Thanks, UFO!

I thought I would do what amounts to a "drive-by" post in support of this new motor.

I downloaded the high-def video of this motor and watched it operate in slow motion.

From what I can tell by watching the video slowed down 10x, "equal balance of push and pull magnetic forces" or what I term "cancellation" appears to happen by the "piston" spinning into correct position while approaching and then departing either the "left-side" or the "right-side" of the "cylinder." Of course, there are two "cylinders." I was referring to the "cylinder" that I observed. After the "cancellation phase" occurs, it appears that magnetic repulsion kicks in.

It's an elegant design.
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  #5  
Old 09-06-2016, 02:23 AM
bistander bistander is offline
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What is it?

Hi guys,

What makes you think this is perpetual motion? I see an electric motor powering the contraption. The patent description also shows an electric motor input (#36 on diagram). And why don't they get someone who can read an instrument correctly? The guy is claiming "1.3 watts" when the meter is visibly set to the Ampere scale. That meter is incapable of measuring power.

In the patent it is referred to as a torque converter. I doubt it fits the definition for that. I don't know what it is or what possible purpose it could serve.

Regards,

bi
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  #6  
Old 09-06-2016, 04:06 AM
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Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Hi guys,

What makes you think this is perpetual motion? I see an electric motor powering the contraption. The patent description also shows an electric motor input (#36 on diagram). And why don't they get someone who can read an instrument correctly? The guy is claiming "1.3 watts" when the meter is visibly set to the Ampere scale. That meter is incapable of measuring power.

In the patent it is referred to as a torque converter. I doubt it fits the definition for that. I don't know what it is or what possible purpose it could serve.

Regards,

bi
Well, we'll only really know once he is able to run the machine without servo motors. Until then, who really knows? Maybe that's how Miller got the patent in the first place.

Even if Miller is able to get the machine to run without servo motors, how many experimenters could replicate it?
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  #7  
Old 09-06-2016, 12:57 PM
DaKrampus DaKrampus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vidbid View Post
Even if Miller is able to get the machine to run without servo motors, how many experimenters could replicate it?
very good question... i think i could make the crankshaft and make the rotors. but i do not have the knowhow to make the central rotor rotate while moving left to right.. (i can imagine how it is done but i would not know what tools to use to build my own device)
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Old 09-06-2016, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Hi guys,

What makes you think this is perpetual motion? I see an electric motor powering the contraption. The patent description also shows an electric motor input (#36 on diagram). And why don't they get someone who can read an instrument correctly? The guy is claiming "1.3 watts" when the meter is visibly set to the Ampere scale. That meter is incapable of measuring power.

In the patent it is referred to as a torque converter. I doubt it fits the definition for that. I don't know what it is or what possible purpose it could serve.

Regards,

bi
You are completely right, #36 is called an "Input Drive"...a Motor.

However on the video below:



Which is a much simpler device, with only one drive (I love simplicicity to start discerning machines)...you can see how by just letting the crankshaft wheel go...it self starts and gain acceleration by itself...while I did not noticed any Electric Motor turning on there...?

I can see the mechanical engineering very clear...

A Crankshaft with dual weight counter balances at 90 axis to the drive output, which does the main drive shaft reciprocating movement which brings closer the displaced magnet disc towards frt-rear static magnetic discs...that creates the rotation. Center magnetic disc is obviously connected directly to drive shaft (I do not see any clutches), while bearing rings do the back-forth movements.

I also noticed a kind of "Timing Chain" and sprockets above engine, connected to both, crank and drive shafts through a 90 gear box and a differential drive (above).


Regards


Ufopolitics
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  #9  
Old 09-06-2016, 03:25 PM
Peter Lindemann Peter Lindemann is offline
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Brilliant!

Vidbid,

You have outdone yourself by posting this! Thank you, so much. Starting in 2009, an inventor named Kenneth Kozeka of the Kedron Corporation started publishing papers on his studies concerning the non-linearity of magnetic fields and the ability of producing a net gain in work by moving permanent magnets in two plains of motion in relation to each other. This force/motion differential was most easily taken advantage of when the permanent magnets were thinner than the size of their pole faces. Miller has clearly taken this idea and produced the machine that creates these complex motions. But he has also taken the complexity of the magnetic interactions beyond what Kozeka's studies explored.

I have a high confidence that what the machine APPEARS to be accomplishing is EXACTLY what it is accomplishing. HEY FOLKS, watch the videos from the links here. I believe you will see, possibly for the first time in your life, a real "SELF-TURNING WHEEL". Humanity is moving beyond its infancy!! Download the patent! This is a keeper.

Vidbid, thanks again for the heads-up!!

Peter

Last edited by Peter Lindemann; 09-06-2016 at 04:06 PM.
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  #10  
Old 09-06-2016, 03:52 PM
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vidbid vidbid is offline
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Lindemann View Post
Vidbid,

You have outdone yourself by posting this! Thank you, so much. Starting in 2009, an inventor named Kenneth Kozeka of the Kedron Corporation started publishing papers on his studies concerning the non-linearity of magnetic fields and the ability of producing a net gain in work by moving permanent magnets in two plains of motion in relation to each other. This force/motion differential was most easily taken advantage of when the permanent magnets were thinner than the size of their pole faces. Miller has clearly taken this idea and produced the machine that creates these complex motions. But he has also taken the complexity of the magnetic interactions beyond what Kozeka's studies explored.

I have a high confidence that what the machine APPEARS to be accomplishing is EXACTLY what it is accomplishing. HEY FOLKS, watch the videos from the links here. I believe you will see, possibly for the first time in your life, a real "SELF TURNING WHEEL". Humanity is moving beyond its infancy!!

Vidbid, thanks again for the heads-up!!

Peter
Thank you, Dr. Lindemann.

My pleasure to share.
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  #11  
Old 09-06-2016, 06:29 PM
bistander bistander is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
You are completely right, #36 is called an "Input Drive"...a Motor.

However on the video below:



Which is a much simpler device, with only one drive (I love simplicicity to start discerning machines)...you can see how by just letting the crankshaft wheel go...it self starts and gain acceleration by itself...while I did not noticed any Electric Motor turning on there...?
Sure looks like an electric motor hanging on the rear end with a conduit box on it. Looks to me like the fellow is holding it at stall and then releases so it accelerates on a programmed ramp or against a torque limit and machine's inertia.

Regards,

bi
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Old 09-06-2016, 09:00 PM
Peter Lindemann Peter Lindemann is offline
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Healthy Skepticism is ALWAYS wise...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Sure looks like an electric motor hanging on the rear end with a conduit box on it. Looks to me like the fellow is holding it at stall and then releases so it accelerates on a programmed ramp or against a torque limit and machine's inertia.

Regards,

bi
Bistander,

Granted, there are a lot of "unknowns" in what we are looking at right now. The "electric motor" at the end of the shaft in that video clip, I believe, is what is being called the "servo-motor." When running in the "electronic timing mode" the servo motor rotates the inner magnet wheels at a specific speed applied through the splined shaft. The output power comes off the crankshaft that tracks the horizontal sliding motions of the inner magnet wheels. This is the set-up when the "end chain" is not connected.

This demonstrates what I was referring to as the force/differential. It apparently takes less force to rotate the magnet wheels than they produce when reciprocating. That is, of course, what we hope is true.

When the end chain is connected, then the output power from the reciprocating action is connected back to supply the input rotational motion of the splined shaft and the machine can "self-start" and run autonomously without any electrical input from the servo motor. That is what I hope we are looking at.

To be fair, only time will tell. In an age where Dinosaurs walk next to human beings on a movie screen, seeing is no longer believing. What I am saying is that based on the impeccable studies published by Kenneth Kozeka, the Miller-Colson machine is exhibiting the kind of motions that could produce what we are looking at WITHOUT being faked.

Clearly, a lot of money has been spent on the working machines and the patent process. If it's a fraud, it cost somebody a lot of money to perpetrate it on themselves.

Peter

Last edited by Peter Lindemann; 09-08-2016 at 03:40 PM.
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  #13  
Old 09-07-2016, 08:57 PM
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Perhaps a small model could be built?

Peter-- I wonder if we could build a small model to demonstrate the basic idea. Moving a permanent magnet in two dimensions to obtain a gain is perhaps something to really look at and measure.
I built a very simple pulse motor awhile back that uses a pair of magnets mounted on a rubber band that move in and out as well tilt. The motion drove a 4 magnet rotor. The drive was a simple reed switch, coil, AA battery arrangement.
Perhaps it has something to do with the subject matter on this thread. Perhaps not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFZd-shL8nw

Lidmotor
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Old 09-08-2016, 02:38 AM
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Question Tronic



There is one small point that I would like to get some clarification on.

If you listen to the audio portion of the above video, at the very first, Miller's first sentence of his statement is "..tronic timing's engaged." I must have re-played the video and listened to the audio about a dozen times. There is most certainly a word spoken before "timing's engaged. It sounds to me that the word spoken is "..tronic". It seems that the earlier portion of the video was edited or removed. I believe what Miller is saying (first word of his sentence is cut off) is "Electronic timing's engaged."

Therefore, I suppose one should ask oneself what does "Electronic timing's engaged" mean in the context of this video.

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Old 09-08-2016, 08:14 AM
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Info

When asked about that motor, Sony Miller's response is: "That is a slave servo motor we use as a timing device only."
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  #16  
Old 09-08-2016, 11:25 AM
bistander bistander is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
When asked about that motor, Sony Miller's response is: "That is a slave servo motor we use as a timing device only."
From the patent:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
You are completely right, #36 is called an "Input Drive"...a Motor.
Looks to be of a kilowatt or larger size. Powerful timing don't you think?

bi
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Old 09-08-2016, 11:46 AM
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Lightbulb Slow Motion



Code:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SdM0MxDegI
Quote:
Originally Posted by Summary, US8487484B1
An advance in the art is provided by a magnetic drive apparatus having a novel magnet arrangement that is particularly suited for reciprocating operation. In an embodiment, the magnetic drive apparatus includes first and second magnet carriers carrying first and second permanent magnet arrangements. An intermediate magnet carrier is disposed between the first and second magnet carriers, and carries a third permanent magnet arrangement. The intermediate magnet carrier and the first and second magnet carriers are arranged for rotation relative to each other (relative rotation). During such relative rotation, the magnet arrangements produce magnetic interactions that result in power stroke forces. The power stroke forces cause the intermediate magnet carrier and the first and second magnet carriers to undergo reciprocation relative to each other (relative reciprocation) in first and second stroke directions during power zone portions of the relative rotation. The magnetic interactions impart substantially no power stroke forces during dead zone portions of the relative rotation. The dead zones encompass relative rotational positions of the magnet carriers wherein opposing magnetic poles of the first, second and third permanent magnet arrangements are mutually coaxially aligned but produce a substantially equal balance of push and pull magnetic forces. The relative rotation and the relative reciprocation between the intermediate magnet carrier and the first and second magnet carriers can be synchronized so that the dead zones occur proximate to top dead center and bottom dead center relative reciprocation positions of the magnet carriers (which is where relaxation of power stroke forces is desired), and so that the power stroke forces occur between the top dead center and bottom dead center relative reciprocation positions (which is where maximum magnetic force is desired).
I thought I'd make a slow motion video of the "intermediate magnet carrier" in action.

Perhaps, somebody could figure out how to build a simpler version of this "motor."

Perhaps, the first and second magnet carriers could be made to rotate, according to a proper timing sequence, being advanced by stepper motors or servo motors, while the intermediate magnet carrier could be made to only reciprocate and not rotate. I'm speculating that construction would be simpler.
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Last edited by vidbid; 09-08-2016 at 11:48 AM. Reason: changed "constructions" to "construction"
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Old 09-08-2016, 11:50 AM
citfta citfta is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vidbid View Post



I thought I'd make a slow motion video of the "intermediate magnet carrier" in action.

Perhaps, somebody could figure out how to build a simpler version of this "motor."

Perhaps, the first and second magnet carriers could be made to rotate, according to a proper timing sequence, being advanced by stepper motors or servo motors, while the intermediate magnet carrier could be made to only reciprocate and not rotate. I'm speculating that construction would be simpler.
That is a very good idea.
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Old 09-08-2016, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vidbid View Post


Code:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SdM0MxDegI


I thought I'd make a slow motion video of the "intermediate magnet carrier" in action.
Nice job Vidbid,

We could see there that center spinning disc works in a combination of attract-repulse mode against frt and rear static discs, even though it can not be exactly seen, since slow motion from a video filmed at normal speed looses a lot of in between frames, so, it looks like it "jumps".

In order for a real, real slow motion to be observed in perfect detail, it must be filmed at a much higher rate of FPS, than normal speed.

Still, we could see the same "power zones" in the beginning of your slow motion, being at 9-3 o'clock based on FIG 5 from patent where it is at 90, So, it does a power stroke at 3 with rear disc (further away from vid) and at 9 o'clock with frt. disc (closer to screen).

They choose TDC and BDC at 12 and 6 o'clock, with dead zones at 45.

Quote:
Perhaps, somebody could figure out how to build a simpler version of this "motor."
I would love to, but I can't at this time...I already thought of a good start to be a small gas engine from an R/C Model...or even an old weed eater engine... basically to use the crank, weights and piston arms...and of course the casing...then just replacing the piston by the moving disc plus allowing it to spin on bearings. Must of this small engines are made of aluminum housing so, it is very easy to modify.

Quote:
Perhaps, the first and second magnet carriers could be made to rotate, according to a proper timing sequence, being advanced by stepper motors or servo motors, while the intermediate magnet carrier could be made to only reciprocate and not rotate. I'm speculating that construction would be simpler.

Man, as it is, is a pretty complicated combination of movements, two or more rotations plus linear strokes that require high sync between them...So, I would concentrate first on just replicating the original, and the simpler one (red one, with single drive)...and seen how it goes...

Almost every single motor out there must have a "Static Side" where it serves as the base, the "fulcrum" to gain acceleration on the spinning end...

I can't even start to imagine a spinning stator engine...


Regards


Ufopolitics
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Last edited by Ufopolitics; 09-08-2016 at 12:45 PM.
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Old 09-08-2016, 03:47 PM
bistander bistander is offline
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Slow mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by vidbid View Post
I thought I'd make a slow motion video of the "intermediate magnet carrier" in action.

{Originally Posted by Summary, US8487484B1}
Thanks vidbid for the slowmo and summary. Something that bothers me about this contraption is the distances between magnets. It is difficult to determine exact scale from what is shown, but it appears that the magnets on the intermediate carrier never get closer than about one inch to the magnets on carriers one and two. This occurs at TDC and BDC where the summary tells us that the rotational position is such that magnet alignment minimizes the forces between the intermediate carrier and carriers one or two.

Then when the intermediate carrier is travelling between TDC & BDC, during the power stroke, presumably the rotation of the intermediate carrier has aligned the magnets for maximum repulsion on one side and maximum attraction on the other side. That would make sense and in agreement with the summary I believe. However during this power stroke where maximum force is desired, the distances between magnets appears very great like on the order of 2 to 8 inches.

The force produced by a magnet is inversely proportional to the distance squared. It appears that the machine's design poorly utilizes the magnetic potential. Even using strong rare earth magnets of the size shown, with those distances, and magnetic paths, I seriously doubt that enough force is developed to do more than slide the intermediate carrier back and forth so a power input is required to rotate it and change its direction of travel.

Regards,

bi
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Old 09-08-2016, 04:47 PM
Peter Lindemann Peter Lindemann is offline
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That IS the issue, alright!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Thanks vidbid for the slowmo and summary. Something that bothers me about this contraption is the distances between magnets. It is difficult to determine exact scale from what is shown, but it appears that the magnets on the intermediate carrier never get closer than about one inch to the magnets on carriers one and two. This occurs at TDC and BDC where the summary tells us that the rotational position is such that magnet alignment minimizes the forces between the intermediate carrier and carriers one or two.

Then when the intermediate carrier is travelling between TDC & BDC, during the power stroke, presumably the rotation of the intermediate carrier has aligned the magnets for maximum repulsion on one side and maximum attraction on the other side. That would make sense and in agreement with the summary I believe. However during this power stroke where maximum force is desired, the distances between magnets appears very great like on the order of 2 to 8 inches.

The force produced by a magnet is inversely proportional to the distance squared. It appears that the machine's design poorly utilizes the magnetic potential. Even using strong rare earth magnets of the size shown, with those distances, and magnetic paths, I seriously doubt that enough force is developed to do more than slide the intermediate carrier back and forth so a power input is required to rotate it and change its direction of travel.

Regards,

bi
Hey Bistander,

I agree with what you are saying here. EVERY ENGINE has a power stroke where it makes mechanical energy and the equivalent of the "compression stroke" in an internal combustion engine, where some of that mechanical energy must be re-invested in the mechanism to set up the next power stroke. But even an ICE won't run without a flywheel that can store the mechanical energy when it is made and carry it through to when it is needed.

This machine has a big flywheel on the crankshaft and a lot of moving mass. And clearly, its going to NEED it to turn the rotating magnets out of a pure attraction mode into an "neutral mode" right when the magnets are closest to each other. It all looks wrong. The power stroke is when the magnets are far away from each other and the re-set stroke is when the magnets are close to each other. It is really quite counter-intuitive to believe this could work!

Enter Kenneth Kozeka's studies. This is an image from one of his Power Point presentations from 2009. Here is what Kozeka found is:



When two magnets were allowed to approach each other from the side, a long attraction stroke was produced whose net work (force times distance) was greater than the work necessary to move them apart vertically, even though the maximum force of the power stroke was never higher than the peak force needed to produce the reset. This test showed a 12% net benefit and was specific to the size and shape of the magnets used in this physical arrangement moving through the specific set of right angle motions. This amount of gain may not seem like much, but it does illustrate the point.

While the Miller-Colson machine appears to be using the vertical movements (pole face to pole face) for the power stroke and the horizontal movements (side to side) for the reset, which is the opposite of what Kozeka is showing in this slide, is not the point. The point is that there are non-linearities in these respective movements and the Millers may have found a different one of these "windows of opportunity" and built a machine to exploit it.

We are not going to definitively know whether this works from the films or from reading the patent. Attempts at replication may be the only way to find out.

Peter
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File Type: jpg Kozeka1.jpg (92.7 KB, 268 views)

Last edited by Peter Lindemann; 09-08-2016 at 05:33 PM.
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  #22  
Old 09-08-2016, 05:26 PM
bistander bistander is offline
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Cycles

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Originally Posted by Peter Lindemann View Post
Hey Bistander,

I agree with what you are saying here. EVERY ENGINE has a power stroke where it makes mechanical energy and the equivalent of the "compression stroke" in an internal combustion engine, where some of that mechanical energy must be re-invested in the mechanism to set up the next power stroke. But even an ICE won't run without a flywheel that can store the mechanical energy when it is made and carry it through to when it is needed.

This machine has a big flywheel on the crankshaft and a lot of moving mass. And clearly, its going to NEED it to turn the rotating magnets out of a pure attraction mode into an "neutral mode" right when the magnets are closest to each other. It all looks wrong. The power stroke is when the magnets are far away from each other and the re-set stroke is when the magnets are close to each other. It is really quite counter-intuitive to believe this could work!

Enter Kenneth Kozeka's studies. This is an image from one of his Power Point presentations from 2009. Here is what Kozeka found is:



When two magnets were allowed to approach each other from the side, a long attraction stroke was produced whose net work (force times distance) was greater than the work necessary to move them apart vertically, even though the maximum force of the power stroke was never higher than the peak force needed to produce the reset. This result was specific to the size and shape of the magnets used in this test, but it illustrates the point.

While the Miller-Colson machine seems to be using the vertical movements for the power stroke and the horizontal movements for the reset is not the point. The point is that there are non-linearities in these respective movements and the Millers may have found one of these and built a machine to exploit it.

We are not going to definitively know whether this works from the films or from reading the patent. Attempts at replication may be the only way to find out.

Peter
Hi Peter,

Here we are dealing with a cyclic machine. When you have a cycle where a mass is at a particular point in a constant or cyclic field (such as a magnetic or gravitational field) once each cycle, then the net work done on the field or by the field is zero per cycle (neglecting losses like friction). So the path of the mass is irrelevant if it returns to its starting position at the completion of the cycle, which it does in this case.

Regards,

bi
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Old 09-08-2016, 05:53 PM
Peter Lindemann Peter Lindemann is offline
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For One Dimensional Motions, you're right, but...

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Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Hi Peter,

Here we are dealing with a cyclic machine. When you have a cycle where a mass is at a particular point in a constant or cyclic field (such as a magnetic or gravitational field) once each cycle, then the net work done on the field or by the field is zero per cycle (neglecting losses like friction). So the path of the mass is irrelevant if it returns to its starting position at the completion of the cycle, which it does in this case.

Regards,

bi
Bistander,

For simple back and forth motions, you are right. But this is a complex, two dimensional set of motions. If you look at the illustration from Kozeka that I posted before, imagine that both magnets can move in a single, back and forth motion. The magnet on the left moves horizontally, back and forth, closer and farther away from the interaction point, and the magnet on the right moves vertically, up and down, closer and farther away from the interaction point. Both of these motions could be actuated by crankshafts that were 90* out of phase with each other.

So, as the cranks turn the vertical magnet moves up while the horizontal magnet is far away. Not much force needed. Next the horizontal magnet moves toward the vertical magnet and produces the power stroke. Next, the vertical magnet moves down, removing 88% of the energy produced by the power stroke to get away. Next, the horizontal magnet moves back to the right without needing much force. At this point, the cycle repeats. So, as long as the frictional losses are low, the complete "four motion cycle" CAN produce a net gain in force. This is not a "spring" with no gain, it is a real, four stroke engine cycle.

Peter

Last edited by Peter Lindemann; 09-08-2016 at 05:57 PM.
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Old 09-08-2016, 06:19 PM
bistander bistander is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Lindemann View Post
Bistander,

For simple back and forth motions, you are right. But this is a complex, two dimensional set of motions. If you look at the illustration from Kozeka that I posted before, imagine that both magnets can move in a single, back and forth motion. The magnet on the left moves horizontally, back and forth, closer and farther away from the interaction point, and the magnet on the right moves vertically, up and down, closer and farther away from the interaction point. Both of these motions could be actuated by crankshafts that were 90* out of phase with each other.

So, as the cranks turn the vertical magnet moves up while the horizontal magnet is far away. Not much force needed. Next the horizontal magnet moves toward the vertical magnet and produces the power stroke. Next, the vertical magnet moves down, removing 88% of the energy produced by the power stroke to get away. Next, the horizontal magnet moves back to the right without needing much force. At this point, the cycle repeats. So, as long as the frictional losses are low, the complete "four motion cycle" CAN produce a net gain in force. This is not a "spring" with no gain, it is a real, four stroke engine cycle.

Peter
So what you're telling me is that if I have a brick that weighs 10 pounds on a scale in my office and I take that brick around the block and up and down the hill and back to the scale in my office it will weight different than 10 pounds? It sure sounds like it.

Regards,

bi
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Old 09-08-2016, 07:26 PM
Peter Lindemann Peter Lindemann is offline
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NO

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So what you're telling me is that if I have a brick that weighs 10 pounds on a scale in my office and I take that brick around the block and up and down the hill and back to the scale in my office it will weight different than 10 pounds? It sure sounds like it.

Regards,

bi
Bistander,

No, I am not saying that. In your example, the brick is always in a uniform, gravitational field and the amount of work it takes to lift it is the same as the amount of work you get back when you drop it. It obviously doesn't matter if you take the brick around the block.

In the example I gave, the magnet moving toward the other magnet to produce the power stroke is moving through a different area of the magnetic field than when it is moved away at 90 degrees. It is the non-linearity of the strength and shape of the magnetic field that allows this situation to produce an advantage.

If I move one magnet in and out of the field of another magnet in exactly the same area of the field, you are right, there is nothing to gain. But Kozeka's studies show that if you move in to the field in one area and out through another area, there MAY be a non-linearity that can be taken advantage of.

This is all based on the shape and size of the magnets to produce these asymmetric shapes in the field. If you take a NEO magnet that is 0.125" thick and has a pole face that is 2" x 2", the field around it flattens out and projects much farther out to the sides than it does in front of the pole face. Two such magnets can produce a much longer, stronger attraction cycle approaching each other from the side than they can by approaching each other face to face.

This is what Kozeka's study found. If you change the shape of the magnet, you can change the shape of the field around it. If you accentuate these shape changes enough, you can produce a mechanical work cycle by entering the field in one location and leaving it through another region. All of Kozeka's data was produced by meticulous strain-gauge measurements. The science is really good.

If you don't believe, you may want to check it out.

Peter
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Old 09-08-2016, 07:56 PM
bistander bistander is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Lindemann View Post
Bistander,

No, I am not saying that. In your example, the brick is always in a uniform, gravitational field and the amount of work it takes to lift it is the same as the amount of work you get back when you drop it. It obviously doesn't matter if you take the brick around the block.

In the example I gave, the magnet moving toward the other magnet to produce the power stroke is moving through a different area of the magnetic field than when it is moved away at 90 degrees. It is the non-linearity of the strength and shape of the magnetic field that allows this situation to produce an advantage.

If I move one magnet in and out of the field of another magnet in exactly the same area of the field, you are right, there is nothing to gain. But Kozeka's studies show that if you move in to the field in one area and out through another area, there MAY be a non-linearity that can be taken advantage of.

This is all based on the shape and size of the magnets to produce these asymmetric shapes in the field. If you take a NEO magnet that is 0.125" thick and has a pole face that is 2" x 2", the field around it flattens out and projects much farther out to the sides than it does in front of the pole face. Two such magnets can produce a much longer, stronger attraction cycle approaching each other from the side than they can by approaching each other face to face.

This is what Kozeka's study found. If you change the shape of the magnet, you can change the shape of the field around it. If you accentuate these shape changes enough, you can produce a mechanical work cycle by entering the field in one location and leaving it through another region. All of Kozeka's data was produced by meticulous strain-gauge measurements. The science is really good.

If you don't believe, you may want to check it out.

Peter
The brick has mass and contributes to the gravitational field just as the magnet contributes to the magnetic field. Your argument is that my brick will weigh different if I use the back door to leave my office instead of the front door when I cycle the position of the brick. If you start and end in the same place in the same field then the net work is zero. The path is irrelevant.

I don't think what you tell me about Mr. Kozeka contradicts my statement. But the subject machine is not gaining energy by cycling magnets. It gets it from the servo motors.

Regards,

bi
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Old 09-08-2016, 08:47 PM
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BroMikey BroMikey is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
The brick has mass and contributes to the gravitational field just as the magnet contributes to the magnetic field. Your argument is that my brick will weigh different

bi
Hello Bistander

NO, that is not what he said. Here is a simple description of what
Kozeka's study found. Go to Magnet4less and buy a powerful magnet.
Next take the magnet out of the package to make your very first
test with it.

Test 1 = Put the magnet on flat some what sizable chunk of steel but
watch those fingers. Measure the pull force ( strain-gauge) in pounds
and record.

Test 2 = Now slide the magnet off the flat surface in a horizontal direction
record the amount in pounds required.

When you go to buy a magnet, this is what their instructional video's
show. So for example to directly pull a magnet straight off the table
might require 50 pounds of pull while the sideways struggle takes 10 lbs.

Many magnet engines have been in existences for decades, moving the
Bloch Wall thru the use of shielding or other magnets will influence the
pull force of the next magnet.

1 in and 1 out or the notion that energy can not be created or destroyed
is keeping you from moving forward. All arguments have their place and
many of the laws we base our science on are nothing more than
incomplete. I refuse to throw out the science I have learned thus far
so what I do is add to the table scraps my findings experimentally then
rearrange.

I really enjoy your break down Peter.


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Old 09-08-2016, 09:26 PM
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Ufopolitics Ufopolitics is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
...I have a brick that weighs 10 pounds on a scale in my office ...

Regards,

bi
Hey Bistander,

Is your brick a neo magnet?

Am just saying for you to be careful while you are going around the block and off back or front doors...they tend to stick very bad to ferromagnetics...like door knobs, stairs side bars, elevator doors,...etc,etc




Ufopolitics
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  #29  
Old 09-08-2016, 11:42 PM
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pmazz850 pmazz850 is online now
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Hi,
I can't seem to understand why there are two stepper motors. If one does the timing, and there mechanically linked on both sides, why have the other motor? The side without the chain appears to be doing the timing. The shaft runs over and is linked through gears and a chain to rotate the other rotor. What function would the other motor have? I don't get that.

The gap between the magnets when fully extended (from center) is shown on the blue painters tape on the front bar of the machine. It appears to be about the same diameter as the magnets. I can't see it providing much force to the rotor. Not enough to throw it all the way back to the other side. It seems like the junction of the upper crossover shafts has to be pushing and pulling on some kind of worm gear...which means the steppers are driving the machine, not the magnets. Maybe I'm just not getting the whole picture. Still trying to wrap my head around it.

Just my observations,
Regards!
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Old 09-09-2016, 01:02 AM
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BroMikey BroMikey is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
So what you're telling me is that if I have
a brick that weighs 10 pounds on a scale in my office and I take that
brick around the block and up and down the hill and back to the scale
in my office...........................

You can't sling one magnet over your shoulder and power a submarine.
I magnetic engine is not the same thing. Look at the video and you will
see that an engine is a compound effort, a series of individual cells all
working in unison. One magnet is out of the question as can be seen.

Shielding and timing makes the magnets work together to produce
usable power. If that magnet is a neo don't wear a belt buckle.





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