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Bedini RPX Sideband Generator
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  #31  
Old 09-09-2016, 01:23 AM
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charly2 charly2 is offline
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I think the servomotor is employed only for running the machine at low speed as he said for demostration. He removed the chain in the side of the servomotor, both sides of the machine are syncronized by the mechanical side (chain), that's why one side has mechanical timing, and the other side is what he calls electronic timing (btw I would not call it that way).
Running at full speed the servo is not needed.
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  #32  
Old 09-09-2016, 01:47 AM
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I have been watching the video several times and looks like there is no mechanical cam and follower or another mechanical sync. It seems the servomotor is spinning the midle plate and magnets according its stroke position.
A full mechanical sync would be great.
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  #33  
Old 09-09-2016, 05:06 AM
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Thumbs up Thank You All

There have been some amazing comments posted to this thread. Thank you all. Where do we go from here? That is up to you. The ideas being featured in this thread has lead me back to magnetic neutralization.

Again, something for me to consider.

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  #34  
Old 09-09-2016, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vidbid View Post
There have been some amazing comments
posted to this thread. Thank you all. Where do we go from here?
That is up to you. The ideas being featured in this thread has lead me
back to magnetic neutralization.

Again, something for me to consider.

Hello VIDBID
I hope all is well, thanks for all of your efforts finding these great
projects. I am doing some small work with magnets and magnet
motor/generator work so this new post really brightens my way.

I hope to see more of you in the future.

I know you can be quite a brain when it comes to showing how things
work like this motor, but not me not on this one so if you
get next to this one I'de really enjoy a piggy back on the perceptual.

Your gift of seeing so many operational principles is useful.

See ya round.

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  #35  
Old 09-09-2016, 07:11 PM
lota lota is offline
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Test

Hello
It is not to build so difficult this part. The servo is to control. If there's a COP 1 will show up. I'm going to build it. Some parts are finished.
Greeting
Lota
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  #36  
Old 09-10-2016, 02:11 PM
lota lota is offline
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Hello
Here the first image. The magnets are too weak.
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File Type: jpg IMG_3832.JPG (99.6 KB, 86 views)
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  #37  
Old 09-10-2016, 06:43 PM
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similitude

Is this close to the principle ? The Two Magnets Push-Pull Experiment
Jim
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  #38  
Old 09-10-2016, 10:10 PM
grumblenuts grumblenuts is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
If you start and end in the same place in the same field then the net work is zero. The path is irrelevant.
Seems IC engines have always contained cycling magnets and pistons, yet "your argument is" they can't produce work. Better tell the wife. I think she's been depending on the car to get her to work tonight. Soccer player runs downfield, scores, returns. A cycle. Simples. No work done. Who knew? Goodness, I'm fairly old and used up now. If only someone could have enlightened me about the simplicity of all this convoluted stuff sooner!

Surely, keeping an open mind only leads to trouble.
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  #39  
Old 09-10-2016, 10:57 PM
bistander bistander is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumblenuts View Post
Seems IC engines have always contained cycling magnets and pistons, yet "your argument is" they can't produce work. Better tell the wife. I think she's been depending on the car to get her to work tonight. Soccer player runs downfield, scores, returns. A cycle. Simples. No work done. Who knew? Goodness, I'm fairly old and used up now. If only someone could have enlightened me about the simplicity of all this convoluted stuff sooner!

Surely, keeping an open mind only leads to trouble.
It is the thermal cycle which produces work in the IC, not cycling of a mass or a magnet in a field.

So your soccer player runs 50 meters due west. Let's say that is 100 Nm of work in the positive direction. He then runs back 50 meters due east and is exactly where he started. He has done 100Nm of work in the negative direction. The sum or "net" work he has done for that cycle is zero.

It does not matter if he alters his path, say with north and south maneuvers to avoid opponents, if he returns to the same position in the field at the end of the cycle, the "net" work or the integration of the work over the cycle, is zero. The path is irrelevant. That is my point.
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Last edited by bistander; 09-10-2016 at 11:45 PM. Reason: Added soccer example
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  #40  
Old 09-11-2016, 01:15 AM
grumblenuts grumblenuts is offline
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Well it seems you neglected to specify this system be closed to all but the cycling inertial and magnetic forces you feel apply. However, in reality - beyond deliberately contentious, ridiculously simplistic theoretical discussion - no system is closed. Perhaps, as with any such prototype, trying to force this one to be is ill considered at best.

Peace and apologies for being an acerbic, opinionated newb here. I ams what I ams. Be glad we don't have to share a bed
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  #41  
Old 09-11-2016, 02:12 AM
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Kenneth Kozeka magnet motorU.S. patent of 2007

I followed Peter's advice and did some research on Kenneth Kozeka today. It seems he also did a patent on a similar motor way back in 2007. Here is the link to that patent info. Patent US20110198958 - Linear permanent magnet motor - Google Patents

I could not find any info on anyone actually getting his design to run. The people who looked at the design basics said that it seemed promising but the energy losses due to mechanical friction and heat were perhaps too great for the machine to work.

It is an interesting topic to study.

--Lidmotor
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Last edited by Lidmotor; 09-11-2016 at 05:13 PM.
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  #42  
Old 09-11-2016, 02:17 PM
bistander bistander is offline
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Kozeka

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lidmotor View Post
I followed Peter's advice and did some research on Kenneth Kozeka today. It seems he also did a patent on a similar motor way back in 2007. Here is the link to that patent info. Patent US20110198958 - Linear permanent magnet motor - Google Patents

I could not find any info on anyone actually getting his design to run. The people who looked at the design basics said that it seemed promising but the energy losses due to mechanical friction and heat were perhaps too great for the machine to work.

It is an interesting topic to study.

--Lidmotor
Hi Lidmotor,

I also did some looking and reading on Kozeka. I did not see that document to which you link. It appears to be a patent application not an issued patent. It's dated 2007 as is much of his work on this subject. I wondered why I couldn't find more recent work. Now I wonder why he apparently let the patent application expire. Perhaps it was disallowed by the USPTO.

As I alluded to in response to Peter, most of Kozeka's tests do not conclict with my statement. He measures different work (energy) when moving the magnet in different directions in the field. In fact, you can notice that his measured net energy sums to zero each time he displaces the magnet and returns to the starting point, supporting my contention. He shows diffenent incremental work done in different directions; something I have not denied. Kozeka doesn't show tests or measurements or calculations for the case of cyclic multidirectional movement. These would be difficult, but doable with computer assistance.

In his patent application I was amazed at the complexity of the apparatus shown in diagram.

Perhaps the reason he no longer pursues his invention (?) is because he came to realize the true physics of fields and energy; something I am trying to relate here.

Regards,

bi
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  #43  
Old 09-11-2016, 05:37 PM
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Kozeka story

Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Hi Lidmotor,

I also did some looking and reading on Kozeka. I did not see that document to which you link. It appears to be a patent application not an issued patent. It's dated 2007 as is much of his work on this subject. I wondered why I couldn't find more recent work. Now I wonder why he apparently let the patent application expire. Perhaps it was disallowed by the USPTO.

As I alluded to in response to Peter, most of Kozeka's tests do not conclict with my statement. He measures different work (energy) when moving the magnet in different directions in the field. In fact, you can notice that his measured net energy sums to zero each time he displaces the magnet and returns to the starting point, supporting my contention. He shows diffenent incremental work done in different directions; something I have not denied. Kozeka doesn't show tests or measurements or calculations for the case of cyclic multidirectional movement. These would be difficult, but doable with computer assistance.

In his patent application I was amazed at the complexity of the apparatus shown in diagram.

Perhaps the reason he no longer pursues his invention (?) is because he came to realize the true physics of fields and energy; something I am trying to relate here.

Regards,

bi
Bistander

This seems to be another story of an inventor who steps onto the stage for awhile and then simply disappears. How many times have we seen that? You are right about the patent not ever getting granted. He just applied for it.
Lets hope that this latest magnet motor design story is different or at least shown to not work. I hate it when these things come up and then everyone is left hanging not knowing if it really did work or was a failure.

Lidmotor
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Last edited by Lidmotor; 09-12-2016 at 03:06 PM.
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  #44  
Old 09-12-2016, 02:26 AM
bistander bistander is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lota View Post
Hello
Here the first image. The magnets are too weak.
Hi lota,

Good to see someone build. Fast. And I like your shop. It doesn't appear you have any timing mechanism to relate rotation to reciprocation. You would benefit from a steel intermediate magnet carrier (I think). Are you going to try stronger magnets?

Even though I don't think it will work, I'd love to see you prove me wrong.

bi
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  #45  
Old 09-12-2016, 07:08 AM
lota lota is offline
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Hello
Yes, I'm going to use stronger magnets. The control is not done yet. I want to build these easier. But still not sure how. It must run syncron to the drive

Lota
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  #46  
Old 09-14-2016, 07:23 PM
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Well i might be wrong but if i remember correctly the guy from texas that made the gap motor, (cant remember his name) had a device that converted rotary to linear movement...
here it is..

(its an animated gif)
Imagine this attached to the center disk, giving it a quarter rotation every time it moves forward or backward. that would should be the timing. I just need to find someone to make me that rotary thing..

Luc
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  #47  
Old 09-16-2016, 03:22 AM
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Testing rotation and magnet layout

I wanted to test the magnet layout at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWgz51pmRpI
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  #48  
Old 09-16-2016, 05:39 PM
bistander bistander is offline
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Nice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty View Post
I wanted to test the magnet layout at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWgz51pmRpI
Hi Dusty,

Nice job on the model and demo.

Thanks,

bi
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  #49  
Old 09-16-2016, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty View Post
I wanted to test the magnet layout at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWgz51pmRpI
Thanks Dusty. This is what I was hoping for---that someone would build a good model to show the action. Excellent!
I am such a rough 'kitchen table' builder I didn't even try. I will be very curious to hear your take on whether or not the device could ever work as shown. Perhaps something will be learned even if it doesn't.

---Lidmotor
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  #50  
Old 09-16-2016, 07:39 PM
iflewmyown iflewmyown is offline
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Dusty, Think about this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09jZsBDHalE
Garry
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  #51  
Old 09-17-2016, 04:23 PM
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3D Print it??

If Dusty gets his wooden model to look promising perhaps somebody can design and 3D print a desktop model. Lasersaber has had great success designing his EZ-Spin motors and then giving out the print files to everyone for replication.
Here is an example of a small 3D printed solenoid motor I found on YouTube. It show the easiest way to convert linear motion to rotary---a push rod and crankshaft.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZiPAJXnT6M

Cheers,
Lidmotor
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  #52  
Old 09-18-2016, 02:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
Hey Vidbid,
OMG, What are all the Skeptics gonna do now?
Where are they all gonna go?
Ufopolitics
Speaking about devil ("where's the Sceptics") Did you call me?)
Two losers finally found each other; where's a Zilano 5kwt OU device, Vibid?
Where's an ass-cemetery OU motor, Ufo? And shielding magnet does not work neither. What a shame
Regarding to this OU motor - how many 10 min OU devices on YT you want me to show you?
Where's me (Skeptic) next to the motor to verify it?
Remember, dreamer, when something comes to YT is not necessary means true; that's what working is on the market, not on YT.
Get you pills, "ufo" and answer to it, and see you, loser, in an year. I'll come back and check it
And get a job, loser, we're sick and tired to pay welfare to you f..g useless immigrants.
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  #53  
Old 09-18-2016, 02:39 AM
Peter Lindemann Peter Lindemann is offline
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Excellent Model and Demonstration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty View Post
I wanted to test the magnet layout at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWgz51pmRpI
Dusty,

Thanks for the great effort to show a model of the structures and the movements of the Miller-Colson machine. Your magnets are 1 inch in diameter, with a pole surface area of 0.78 sq. in. It looks like the Miller-Colson machine may be using 3 inch diameter magnets, with a pole surface area of 7.06 sq. in. So the magnets in the M-C machine are quite a bit stronger than your model.

We can see in the last of your film that if the rotor is just spun in the center zone, it tends to move back and forth. So that is the idea of the machine.

With that in mind, IF the magnets are strong enough, the friction is low enough, and the amount of energy needed to spin the rotor is less than the energy that can be recovered by the back and forth motions, IT MAY WORK!

That would be very cool!

Peter
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  #54  
Old 09-18-2016, 03:57 PM
Peter Lindemann Peter Lindemann is offline
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One More Idea...

Dusty,

You also mentioned in your film that the next modification you are going to make is to move the magnets closer to the axle. May I suggest a different modification? What your model tells me is that your magnets are too weak for the distance of the movements, therefore you might try moving the end plates closer and asking the rotor to move a shorter stroke. Having the magnets at the larger diameter and physically far away from each other is beneficial to creating the three zones of action cleanly.

My analysis of what you are showing tells me that you do not need a smaller neutral zone, you need a stronger power stroke. With your strength of magnets, that means the end plates need to be closer together, leaving the wheels and magnets as they are.

Just a thought.

Peter

Last edited by Peter Lindemann; 09-18-2016 at 04:02 PM.
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  #55  
Old 09-18-2016, 07:39 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is offline
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Maximum central power position and equal force distribution.

The disk constantly revolves in the same direction. It generates it's maximum attraction and repulsion in the middle, equidistant from both ends; then it turns neutral at 1/4 the distance from each end when the polarities begin to reverse. This keeps the attraction and repulsion force constant in both directiions as the force is an inverse square of the distance; So at the 3/8-5/8 distance respectivly , or midway between the middle and the reversal points, the magnets are turned to cover only 1/2 the face of their counterparts on the other ends, delivering an equally distributed force throughout it's entire spiral stroke.

The disk also appears to slow it's rotation down towards the middle and speed up towards the ends. This non proportional acceleration probably requires the sophisticated electronic servo.
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File Type: jpg 1z.jpg (107.5 KB, 17 views)
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Last edited by Allen Burgess; 09-18-2016 at 10:35 PM.
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  #56  
Old 09-19-2016, 12:13 AM
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Lightbulb Alternation

Here's an experiment suggestion by me.



I would think that it would be easier to construct.
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  #57  
Old 09-20-2016, 03:06 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is offline
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Vidbid's concept.

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Originally Posted by vidbid View Post
Here's an experiment suggestion by me.



I would think that it would be easier to construct.
You're spinning one stator when the design includes two, one on each end. Why would you need a spline on the reciprocating shaft if it's not rotating? I see your point, but you would need first a central axle to connect the two rotating stators. The otherwise rotating central disk now becomes the stationary stator. This might be pushed in and out by an external frame. The motor needs two magnet disks, one on each end to operate, because it uses the attraction field from the disk it's approaching to drive it. The repulsion is no longer a factor after the central disk travels past the halfway point into the opposite side attraction field.

In the original design, the reciprocating motion of the spinning rotor is powered by the magnetic attraction and repulsion. All the servo does in the original is spin the rotor. All the external frame would need to do is hold the central rotor in position.

We need one electric motor to spin the two outside disks connected by an axle, and a non-rotating central disk with a "Rotating Linear Ball Bearing" in the center to allow the disk hub to simultaneously slide over and around the axle; Then all we need is a simple sliding guide attached to the oversized center disk circumference and a frame to hold it steady. This sliding guide would act as the longitudinal power piston. The power from the guide piston should be enough to spin the stators connected to a "DaKrampus (Art Porter)" gear (Post #46 above), to run itself, because the attraction and repulsion are nearly twice the shear force.

This design's ready for Lidmotor's 3D desktop model.
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Last edited by Allen Burgess; 09-21-2016 at 02:22 AM.
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  #58  
Old 09-20-2016, 05:20 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is offline
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Rotating linear bearing.

This kind of "Rotating Linear Bearing" would be required to allow the center magnet disk to both slide back and forth over the stators axle and allow the axle to rotate inside the hub simultaneously: I believe this bearing may have a second race hidden in the collar to handle the rotation.
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Last edited by Allen Burgess; 09-21-2016 at 12:55 AM.
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  #59  
Old 09-20-2016, 09:19 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is offline
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Ceramic axle and bushing and stators speed.

For the money, this type of super hard, non-magnetic, self lubricating smooth ceramic axle and bushing can't be beat for combined linear and rotational motion. The mating parts won't heat up and lock from friction:

Specifications

Character: Thermo-stability, anti-corrosion, anti-friction, shock resistance, self-lubricating.

The stators spin rate can be made to speed up toward the end stroke with a cam axle on a motor accelerator, or a more tightly machined spiral groove on the "Art Porter" yoke, if they need to.
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Last edited by Allen Burgess; 09-20-2016 at 10:19 PM.
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  #60  
Old 09-21-2016, 03:19 AM
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Hi Allen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Burgess View Post
You're spinning one stator when the design includes two, one on each end.
True.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Burgess View Post
Why would you need a spline on the reciprocating shaft if it's not rotating?
To keep it from rotating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Burgess View Post
I see your point, but you would need first a central axle to connect the two rotating stators.
We'll call it Version 2.0.

Does the axle have to go through the center? What about having the axle on the side of the device as in Sonny's first video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWggsnpEk_s

Notice that the axle in his first prototype is on the top of his device, and it runs parallel, along the device.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Burgess View Post
The otherwise rotating central disk now becomes the stationary stator.
In my design, I prefer to call it the reciprocating, non-rotating primary magnet carrier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Burgess View Post
This might be pushed in and out by an external frame.
I'm not following you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Burgess View Post
The motor needs two magnet disks, one on each end to operate, because it uses the attraction field from the disk it's approaching to drive it.
We'll put it in Version 2.0.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Burgess View Post
The repulsion is no longer a factor after the central disk travels past the halfway point into the opposite side attraction field.
Good point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Burgess View Post
In the original design, the reciprocating motion of the spinning rotor is powered by the magnetic attraction and repulsion.
True.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Burgess View Post
All the servo does in the original is spin the rotor.
The operative word is servo.

My design doesn't require a servo, just an ordinary, high-torque electric motor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Burgess View Post
All the external frame would need to do is hold the central rotor in position.
I'm not following you.

My design (Version 1.0) has the primary reciprocating, non-rotating magnet carrier moving up or down, relative to the position of the frame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Burgess View Post
We need one electric motor to spin the two outside disks connected by an axle, and a non-rotating central disk with a "Rotating Linear Ball Bearing" in the center to allow the disk hub to simultaneously slide over and around the axle.
As I have said, you could also have an external axle in the Version 2.0 design. It might be cheaper to build than a center axle. Of course, if you had an externally-mounted axle in Version 2.0, then Version 2.0 could be turned on its side as with Miller's original prototype.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Burgess View Post
Then all we need is a simple sliding guide attached to the oversized center disk circumference and a frame to hold it steady. This sliding guide would act as the longitudinal power piston. The power from the guide piston should be enough to spin the stators connected to a "DaKrampus (Art Porter)" gear (Post #46 above), to run itself, because the attraction and repulsion are nearly twice the shear force.
My primary objective with Version 1.0 was to come up with a simple experimenter's design suggestion to test the concept.

I really don't like using servo motors.

Version 2.0 could easily incorporate your suggestions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Burgess View Post
This design's ready for Lidmotor's 3D desktop model.
That's great! I hope to see it soon.

Thank you, Allen, for your suggestions. Much appreciated.
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Last edited by vidbid; 09-21-2016 at 03:22 AM. Reason: diction
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