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  #1  
Old 09-01-2016, 10:52 PM
BSpg BSpg is offline
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Question Tesla coil, Standing Waves and Earth Connection

Hello Everyone,

I'm just finishing a new video.
I was inspired with this Tesla's drawing:


This drawing shows my three experiments:


I cannot interpret the third experiment, if I use the same logic as in the previous two experiments.

How is reflected standing wave at the third experiment?
Or is reflected on the ground surface, or somewhere inside the earth?


I do not use such a large power, but as Tesla was said - there being no diminution in the intensity of the transmitted impulses?

Thanks,
Spigel
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File Type: jpg NodeShiftingTesla.jpg (43.4 KB, 179 views)
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Old 09-01-2016, 11:19 PM
Jeff Pearson Jeff Pearson is offline
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Where is video??
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Old 09-01-2016, 11:25 PM
BSpg BSpg is offline
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Where is video??
Video will be finished tomorrow.
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Old 09-03-2016, 12:32 AM
BSpg BSpg is offline
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Hi,
video is completed:

Basic Tesla's Experiments (Part 7) - Standing Wave, Node, Reflection

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkMndCsNRQU

Thanks,
Spigel
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Last edited by BSpg; 09-03-2016 at 10:17 AM. Reason: Change link
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Old 09-03-2016, 03:45 AM
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Originally Posted by BSpg View Post
How is reflected standing wave at the third experiment?
Or is reflected on the ground surface, or somewhere inside the earth?

Perhaps this could be interpreted in the following way - Tesla's drawing:
It's exactly like Tesla's drawing. The wave is reflected off the boundary of the earth at the opposite side to the transmitter. The activity on the surface is like a shadow. Based on a wave travelling through the centre of the earth at the velocity of light, the average propagation velocity along the surface is Pi/2*c, and everything ends up at the same resonant frequency as given by Tesla.

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Old 09-03-2016, 04:38 AM
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In your drawing you seem to forget that as a current flows through the Earth, the Earth also adds some inductance.
It is just like an ordinary resonating coil; part of it acts as inductance and part as capacitance. There is no sharp line between them, towards the end the current gets less, so also the inductance gets to play a smaller role, while at the same time charges get compressed so capacitance starts to play a larger role.

I do not remember that drawing of Tesla. Where did you get it from? Looks like a patent application?


Ernst.
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Old 09-05-2016, 02:55 PM
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Hi dR-Green,

it would be interesting if it happened in my (third) experiment.
I use very little power compared to the Tesla device. L2 is loosely coupled, excited with a maximum of 100W.

Thanks,
Spigel
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Old 09-05-2016, 03:18 PM
BSpg BSpg is offline
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Originally Posted by Ernst View Post
In your drawing you seem to forget that as a current flows through the Earth, the Earth also adds some inductance.
It is just like an ordinary resonating coil; part of it acts as inductance and part as capacitance. There is no sharp line between them, towards the end the current gets less, so also the inductance gets to play a smaller role, while at the same time charges get compressed so capacitance starts to play a larger role.
Regarding the earth inductance and capacity, in any case, it is okay.
But I'm not sure it gives the answer to these questions:

How is reflected standing wave at the third experiment?
Or is reflected on the ground surface, or somewhere inside the earth?



Spigel
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Old 09-06-2016, 02:08 AM
Ernst Ernst is online now
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I don't think it is reflected, you'll need significantly more power for that. What you see is a current being sent into and drawn from the earth because of the magnetic effects produced by the primary winding(s). The Earth just acts as a giant reservoir of electrical charge.

You are using a transistor driven coil. That is nowhere near the power of a spark gap driver. Power being energy per time unit. you can increase the power by decreasing the switching time. And since there is no semi-conductor that can switch as much current in as short a time, a spark gap will always win (in terms of power).
With a spark gap coil and a power input of about 800 W you can (if all is well dimensioned) see streamers that grow in length. I believe that is because of the reflection at the other side of the Earth (which takes 85 ms round trip).
Below 800W with the same coils I could not obtain this effect, so I expect that the minimum amount of power to get a reflection is near this 800 W, which is incidently close to the 1 HP that Tesla mentioned.


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Old 09-08-2016, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernst View Post
I don't think it is reflected, you'll need significantly more power for that. What you see is a current being sent into and drawn from the earth because of the magnetic effects produced by the primary winding(s). The Earth just acts as a giant reservoir of electrical charge.
Ernst.
I think that this explanation is just fine. Only, I do not have a case of inductive coupling than the capacitive coupling between L1 and L2.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernst View Post
You are using a transistor driven coil. That is nowhere near the power of a spark gap driver. Power being energy per time unit. you can increase the power by decreasing the switching time. And since there is no semi-conductor that can switch as much current in as short a time, a spark gap will always win (in terms of power).
With a spark gap coil and a power input of about 800 W you can (if all is well dimensioned) see streamers that grow in length. I believe that is because of the reflection at the other side of the Earth (which takes 85 ms round trip).
Below 800W with the same coils I could not obtain this effect, so I expect that the minimum amount of power to get a reflection is near this 800 W, which is incidently close to the 1 HP that Tesla mentioned.
I am aware that the power of my device is too small to get a feedback signal. In addition, L2 generates a sine wave. It is better as you do, use a short powerful impulse. A short pulse can excite any resonant system that vibrates at its resonant frequency.

Thanks and

Spigel
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Old 09-19-2016, 06:37 PM
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A strange request...

Evidently I was sent a PM asking me to remove my post that has Tesla's diagram in it from the thread, apparently due to uncertainty over the copyright. It's all over the internet and is Tesla's diagram so I don't think that's a problem. Even if it was a problem I'm not sure what bearing it would have on this thread, and the image is hosted on another member's web site. On top of that, the person who requested I remove Tesla's diagram himself has a post and a video on youtube containing more of Tesla's diagrams. So
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Old 09-19-2016, 07:19 PM
mikrovolt mikrovolt is offline
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The bric and mortar museums of turn of the century polished brass technology exist and are spread over the world. They get their share of peculiar spies and critics and sometimes need
assistance from a security person. I am not aware of any Tesla copyrights on his inventions
of special classification however there are some that feel there are death rays and earth quake machines out there. This concern was more pronounced during various periods. A sign of the times ?
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Old 09-20-2016, 02:38 AM
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I have re-drawn these Tesla drawings (I had not seen them before) and shared them with BSpg. Since I created those drawings I own all rights.
BSpg showed me his copies, which I used to create mine. Then I removed his copies so, there can be no copyright infringement.
If BSpg agrees, please re-post my drawings for which I grant everyone the right to copy and use in any way they see fit.


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Old 09-21-2016, 01:46 PM
BSpg BSpg is offline
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Originally Posted by dR-Green View Post
Evidently I was sent a PM asking me to remove my post that has Tesla's diagram in it from the thread, apparently due to uncertainty over the copyright. It's all over the internet and is Tesla's diagram so I don't think that's a problem. Even if it was a problem I'm not sure what bearing it would have on this thread, and the image is hosted on another member's web site. On top of that, the person who requested I remove Tesla's diagram himself has a post and a video on youtube containing more of Tesla's diagrams. So
Hi dR-Green,

I am sorry and thanks for that.
I was surprised when I noticed that this Tesla's drawing was not published on the Internet. The drawing was published in a magazine 25 years ago. Subsequently, I found that this drawing already been published on the Internet:
Val - Znanje - Portal za razvoj svijesti | Nikola Tesla o 21. stolje?u - 1937.g. - i nau?ni komentari | Godine, Energije, Beograd, Nikole, Sredstva, Zemlje,

I'm not a lawyer and I find it difficult to judge what is okay and what is not. Of course, there are enormous Tesla's drawings on the Internet, so I suppose that can be freely used.

BSpg
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Old 09-21-2016, 02:13 PM
BSpg BSpg is offline
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Originally Posted by Ernst View Post
I have re-drawn these Tesla drawings (I had not seen them before) and shared them with BSpg. Since I created those drawings I own all rights.
BSpg showed me his copies, which I used to create mine. Then I removed his copies so, there can be no copyright infringement.
If BSpg agrees, please re-post my drawings for which I grant everyone the right to copy and use in any way they see fit.


Ernst.
Hi Ernst,
unfortunately, I'm can not say anything about it, because I'm not a lawyer. Does this new drawing can be considered as a copy of a copy is hard to say. You alone decide what you want to do, I can not for it to bear any kind of responsibility and also can not make decisions.

Otherwise, it is nice of you, regarding free drawings.


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Old 09-21-2016, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by BSpg View Post
Hi dR-Green,

I am sorry and thanks for that.
I was surprised when I noticed that this Tesla's drawing was not published on the Internet. The drawing was published in a magazine 25 years ago. Subsequently, I found that this drawing already been published on the Internet:
Val - Znanje - Portal za razvoj svijesti | Nikola Tesla o 21. stolje?u - 1937.g. - i nau?ni komentari | Godine, Energije, Beograd, Nikole, Sredstva, Zemlje,

I'm not a lawyer and I find it difficult to judge what is okay and what is not. Of course, there are enormous Tesla's drawings on the Internet, so I suppose that can be freely used.

BSpg
Thanks for the link. Like Ernst I was wondering where one of those diagrams had come from.

I don't know of any forum post or thread that has been shut down on copyright grounds, unless one is focused on deliberately distributing copyrighted material. In this case all we have done is link to files that already exist on the internet, so any copyright issues will have to be taken up with the individuals who host those files. If you are listening to a radio station then it's not your business whether or not the radio station has paid the license fee to play the music.
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Old 09-21-2016, 07:33 PM
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Hi all, i normally keep reserved, though today i feel like in a sharing mood.
The whole copyright, patent and anything else that claims so called ownership of ideas, was solely intended from the start, to prevent humanity from freely having all the really good information and the good devices, methods, etc. and the results that would lead to.
Money systems support these ways, by giving incentive not to share freely and compete.
Eventually, by using these types of systems, all the advancements, money and thus power, get funnelled into very few hands and it should be obvious, they don't seem to have the best of intentions towards the rest of humanity.
Though wild parties can only last so long and their party is almost at an end, thank god.
Have a nice day.
peace love light
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Old 09-21-2016, 08:34 PM
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Hi all, i normally keep reserved, though today i feel like in a sharing mood.
The whole copyright, patent and anything else that claims so called ownership of ideas, was solely intended from the start, to prevent humanity from freely having all the really good information and the good devices, methods, etc. and the results that would lead to.
I disagree. The point of copyright and licensing is to ensure that the creator/owner gets paid for his or her work. If you go to work then you expect to get paid, so why should it be any different for an inventor or a musician or an author?

But some people abuse it and apparently it goes beyond practicality. The publisher of the book owns the copyright on the particular publication and they paid to produce and publish it, but the work and the content is Tesla's, and there's nothing that they can do to give Tesla the money, so a copyright on his work is a nonsense because no one is entitled to claim it no matter what law they make up. The copyright on the original publications of the articles have long since expired so if you recompile them then you can publish them as you wish and copyright it yourself.
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Old 09-22-2016, 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by BSpg View Post
Hi,
video is completed:

Basic Tesla's Experiments (Part 7) - Standing Wave, Node, Reflection

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkMndCsNRQU

Thanks,
Spigel

Hi Spigel

I watched your video. - I thought it was nicely produced and what you were doing was very clear and the diagrams are excellent.

Certainly it is clear that by adding a larger and larger capacity to the neutral terminal end, the node shifts further and further down the coil.

In the last test where the neutral is connected to the earth pin of the power socket, the node is shifted almost off the coil, but you can see it still appears at a few centimetres off the bottom of your coil. - I think the goal is to have the node appear right at the very bottom, or even at the point of earth contact. Probably a difficult thing to actually achieve…

I’m not sure if the ground pin on your power socket is an ideal ground anyway. Who knows where it is grounded to and what other appliances or water-pipes etc. are also earthed to the same pin? (There might be displacement currents going through of your toaster in the kitchen)? Plus there would be an amount of added inductance via all these things as previously mentioned.

So you might be better off finding a direct ground with a dedicated ground rod system outside?

The other thing you could try is adding more and more (isolated) capacities (like the 5 + 5 + 5pF), to simulate the natural ground capacity. But increase it until you can move the node right to the bottom of the coil… 712pF?

Have you considered any methods for modulation of the carrier resonant frequency?
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Old 09-22-2016, 01:28 AM
Ernst Ernst is online now
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Glad to see you agree

Here are two of the files. These are reproductions made by me.
BSpg has sent me a third one that I can not reproduce with certainty. I may post my best attempt later.


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File Type: jpg Tesla 002r.jpg (68.8 KB, 25 views)
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Old 09-22-2016, 05:12 AM
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3rd image

The source of this one was very unclear. This is my best guess.

BTW. has anyone plans to visit the Tesla museum in the near future. They have opened a science centre with a couple of PC's on which you can view all of Tesla's documents for as far as they are digitized (almost (?) everything should be available).
You can also obtain hardcopies for a small (?) fee.
It seems to me that a coordinated action could make most of his work available to all of us.


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Old 09-26-2016, 11:03 PM
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Hi Sputins,
Thanks for all. I'm glad that you like this video.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sputins View Post
Hi Spigel

Certainly it is clear that by adding a larger and larger capacity to the neutral terminal end, the node shifts further and further down the coil.

In the last test where the neutral is connected to the earth pin of the power socket, the node is shifted almost off the coil, but you can see it still appears at a few centimetres off the bottom of your coil. - I think the goal is to have the node appear right at the very bottom, or even at the point of earth contact. Probably a difficult thing to actually achieve…

I’m not sure if the ground pin on your power socket is an ideal ground anyway. Who knows where it is grounded to and what other appliances or water-pipes etc. are also earthed to the same pin? (There might be displacement currents going through of your toaster in the kitchen)? Plus there would be an amount of added inductance via all these things as previously mentioned.

So you might be better off finding a direct ground with a dedicated ground rod system outside?
I think that you have absolute right. However, I made a similar experiment. I am disconnect my home electrical installation from the ground connection and connected the device directly to the ground connection. I have performed measurements with an oscilloscope, because he is more sensitive than the neon bulb. On the grounding was very small voltage. Grounding is embedded in the foundations of the house (3m long line)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sputins View Post
The other thing you could try is adding more and more (isolated) capacities (like the 5 + 5 + 5pF), to simulate the natural ground capacity. But increase it until you can move the node right to the bottom of the coil… 712pF?
Yes, that should be this logic. However, it looks as if the wave reflected from the surface of the earth (when the coil is connected to the earth). I am not still entirely sure how to interpret.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sputins View Post
Have you considered any methods for modulation of the carrier resonant frequency?
So far, I have not. I'm working on something more powerful device, which should have also this possibility.
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Old 09-28-2016, 01:59 AM
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Originally Posted by BSpg View Post
Hi Sputins,
Thanks for all. I'm glad that you like this video.



I think that you have absolute right. However, I made a similar experiment. I am disconnect my home electrical installation from the ground connection and connected the device directly to the ground connection. I have performed measurements with an oscilloscope, because he is more sensitive than the neon bulb. On the grounding was very small voltage. Grounding is embedded in the foundations of the house (3m long line)


Yes, that should be this logic. However, it looks as if the wave reflected from the surface of the earth (when the coil is connected to the earth). I am not still entirely sure how to interpret.
Okay, not sure if disconnecting the house from its ground is a great idea, but all in the name of experimentation!

I have heard that often house grounds can eventually become not very well grounded as the soil around the foundations can become very dry and not sufficiently grounded, well at least in Australia anyway, (a dry joint in soldering terms). But then again perhaps a capacitive coupling to the (planet)-earth ground could have its own unique properties showing up in experiments?

I’d still suggest constructing some sort of dedicated grounding arrangement for your rig which should give the best results...

There are not many who have shown results with reflected signals from the actual earth (planet) connection. I know it is possible and the minimum power required is said to be around 1hp. But who knows what the absolute minimum power might be for a reflection signal given the location, geology, or grounding system arrangements…

Here might be an area of experiments to entertain, “simulated grounding earth capacities” verses actual planet-earth grounding systems.

-The biggest storm in 56 years is about to hit here right now… Batten down the hatches…
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Old 10-21-2017, 07:12 AM
mikrovolt mikrovolt is offline
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an old drawing depicting standing waves 1911 a guideline for checking good output.
1. the spark gap burst or envelope at L1
2. the standing wave that develops on the antenna
http://www.r-type.org/timeline/ww1911-h.jpg
article reference.
Wireless World Golden Jubilee review of 1911

In another article comparing results of the impulse wave of a spark gap
L1 to L2 either series or simple type gaps at various coupling coefficients.

https://deanostoybox.com/hot-streame...sgap/sgap.html

looking at standing waves how tuning can effect output.

In this video Astronod demonstrates artificial ground in the context of
ham to tesla coil an L-wave antenna with reflective ground transmit between Netherland and France
approx 300 miles on 22 watts. tin foil a possible remedy for stability
Shows that our Tesla table top models can still tune and
do a proof of concept in either mode without the best ground.

https://youtu.be/Pixz6gw3pGg?t=1415
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