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  #1  
Old 08-05-2016, 08:15 PM
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Arrow 12,000% More - Open System Physics & Thermodynamics by Mike Waters



Open System Physics & Thermodynamics
by Mike Waters
– If you want to learn an argument that wins 100% of the time against conventional physicists who deny “overunity”, this is for you.

You’ll also learn how Michael produced 12,000% MORE electricity from the wind compared to a conventional turbine – it’s so simple, you can build your own test units to see what they produce!

He also goes into graphene, cavitation and many other concepts including sharing his vision of a personal transport vehicle that could eventually have an unlimited range.

Release date – August 5, 2016. Learn more: Open System Physics & Thermodynamics
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Old 08-28-2016, 03:51 PM
grumblenuts grumblenuts is offline
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Hi Aaron!

Not sure I've ever posted here despite joining back in like 2007. Anyways, I've just finished my own version of Mike Water's design that my daughter shot a little video of with her cell phone. https://youtu.be/X_hSOutOOiI
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Old 08-28-2016, 08:54 PM
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Waters Turbine

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Originally Posted by grumblenuts View Post
Hi Aaron!

Not sure I've ever posted here despite joining back in like 2007. Anyways, I've just finished my own version of Mike Water's design that my daughter shot a little video of with her cell phone. https://youtu.be/X_hSOutOOiI
Thanks for the link - that looks pretty slick!

Do you have any close up pics of how you built it?

Any way you can datalog the output with wind speed an electrical output to see what it is really doing?
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Old 08-28-2016, 09:48 PM
grumblenuts grumblenuts is offline
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Thanks! Nah, not yet anyway. Just built the darn thing, sheesh! Lol. Pics? I designed it in SolidWorks13 format. U know me. Dumpster polycarbonate, bearings, axles, scrap skid 4x4, wheel leftover from old magnet experiment, drywall screws, paint. Cost to me? $0 < what I happen to have in me wallet as well, coincidentally,... tee hee.

It does run quietly (when no trucks are going by), smoothly, and steadily with any wind. It also produces some interesting reflections like a spinning disco ball.
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Old 08-28-2016, 11:02 PM
grumblenuts grumblenuts is offline
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Btw, the image on your book cover is pretty much how I've pictured the best design all along. Only I wonder whether adding some ridges spiraling out from the center might help accelerate the "fluid" through the blades with less turbulence.



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Old 09-11-2016, 12:02 AM
grumblenuts grumblenuts is offline
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Still no generator or torque measuring yet (no money), so obviously I can't corroborate Mike's claims other than it starting with the slightest breath of wind. However, I watch the thing a lot and it sure appears to work great. It snaps to attention when actual gusts of wind come along and quickly accelerates as though the flywheel has no mass. It's impressed me so much I've already drawn up a bigger version with what I see as some slight improvements.



May build that next year... But that's not all by a long shot. My mind keeps shooting out to infinity and beyond...
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Old 09-11-2016, 12:21 AM
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Mike Water's Turbine

Behind the turbine is a vacuum, does the tail your using work as expected and keeps the turbine facing the wind?

--------------------------------------------------

Here is a reference on Mike Water's page:

Waters Turbine - A Cure For Global Crises

Velocity Profile



Third party and direct comparison test
There have been three separate third party tests, including computer flow analysis. My own direct comparative tests against a conventional high performance wind turbine in a broad range of conditions confirm theory. We ran direct comparisons in real world conditions for days because 3rd party results seemed too high. One result was well over 30 times. An aerodynamicist study over several months of tests found a maximum of 122 times more efficient at 14 mph.

The conventional design was a molded precision product with an accurate airfoil. Mine was far from optimized, using no airfoils in order to build at low cost. Comparing my 4' design against a stock 5' three blade, under the same load, the conventional product starts at over 7 mph and produces very little torque or rpm at that speed. My turbine, under the same load starts at under 1 mph. If the square force relationship is used that is 49 times more force required to turn the conventional design. If the cube rule is used the difference is 343 times. Then there is a size difference. The actual formula is more complex and varies with wind speed but the results are interesting. Startup velocity is just one factor but this shows that a much broader wind velocity range can be utilized.

In analyzing many wind turbine polars, real world generator efficiency range usually results in electrical output falling somewhere between square and cube relationship.

Another interesting data point, under extreme shaft load, the conventional turbine would not turn, even at 28 mph. My design in the same conditions self starts at 11 mph.

Test equipiment involved a prony brake, rpm meter and wind meter. Accuracy of both wind and rpm meters was within 5%. Prony brake measurements were comparative and direct, utilizing the same shaft, load and conditions for both designs.
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Old 09-11-2016, 08:35 AM
Khwartz Khwartz is offline
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Smile

Hi Aaron.

Thanks for the infos and rigour You've made the tests, even still raw design
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Old 09-11-2016, 09:02 AM
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Mike Waters turbine

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Originally Posted by Khwartz View Post
Hi Aaron.

Thanks for the infos and rigour You've made the tests, even still raw design
Hi Khwartz,

All credit goes to Mike Waters as I'm only copying what he has posted.

This is one of the most practical disruptive technologies that has been put in front of the public's awareness and I'd love to see a lot of replications.
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Old 09-11-2016, 11:51 AM
grumblenuts grumblenuts is offline
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Agreed, Aaron. All credit goes to Mike. You're just spreading the word and I've simply replicated a portion of his work to somewhat test the idea independently.

It appears to work just fine. Nonetheless, we're free to consider other angles. Thinking will out. Can't be stopped. Dammit!

Quote:
Behind the turbine is a vacuum, does the tail your using work as expected and keeps the turbine facing the wind?
Yes, it does. Great question. I really like keeping things "simple stupid." So does it really need a tail? Is it worth the bother? I don't know. As you note, there is a vacuum behind. I think widening its wind capture diameter by adding to the forward flange as I've shown could only help. But what if it were flipped? Remove the tail now and it still follows the wind. Would it work as well? I don't know!
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Last edited by grumblenuts; 09-11-2016 at 11:52 AM. Reason: remove word excess
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Old 09-12-2016, 06:56 PM
Khwartz Khwartz is offline
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hello %Aaron and hello grumblenuts.

So that's nice you replicate it grumblenuts so you could provide real independent measurements.

Regards
Didier
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Old 09-12-2016, 07:56 PM
grumblenuts grumblenuts is offline
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Wink

Hi and thanks Khwartz!

Unfortunately, my "real independent measurements" shall continue being more like subjective eyeball guesstimates... unless I hit the lottery or something. Somehow I've neglected to stock up on strain gauges and remote transmitting equipment for like ever .

I did, however, remove the tail this morning, and eyeballed it some more. As a suction driven device it really sucked. First of all, it couldn't be bothered to change direction at all due to any wind though I could still very easily turn it by hand. It spun normally (counterclockwise) at times, but very lethargically until the wind fully changed direction 180°. I gather that, without some sort of shroud enhancing the vacuum and wagging the dog, the thing's far better off facing forward and with a decent tail.
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Old 09-17-2016, 03:27 AM
grumblenuts grumblenuts is offline
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Around 7PM with wind noticeable but relatively calm - I measured 3-6 inch-pounds of static (or starting) torque with my handy little Snap On Torque-O-Meter - the one I damn near gave away long ago, having never found any practical use for it, and recalled possessing only this morning. I'd say it measured 5 inch-pounds on average ranging mostly from -5 to +20 with rare bursts reading +25 and higher.

And I ordered a cheap anemometer so I'll soon be noting the wind speed accurately. In case anyone's moved to do some calculations, the windmill's diameter (outside) is 33" (and 28" inside). The vent ring is 6.5" deep.
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Old 09-18-2016, 11:11 AM
grumblenuts grumblenuts is offline
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Well, figuring on a default 5 in-lb/s output, my back of napkin calculations tell me that:

1. My 33" diameter version will produce virtually no power most of the time, at least where I live in PA, somewhat surrounded by buildings and tall trees.

2. But, if I build the one drawn above, 130" diameter, I can expect it to output about 1/20th hp or 35 watts in its default state.

The bigger one, in other words, may stop turning occasionally in the cool, dewy calm before the dawn (Winter especially), but it will generally keep a 35 watt bulb shining brightly. Not sure there is such a thing, but it would keep a decent battery charged at least.

However,... when it gets a little windy... look out!
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Old 10-31-2016, 01:43 AM
grumblenuts grumblenuts is offline
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As time marches inexorably on, there's this saying, most often attributed to the author of Winnie the Pooh, to ponder: "Sometimes I sits and thinks, and sometimes I just sits."

I continue to monitor this windmill daily. pondering myriad tests, additions, modifications, variations, ... But I swear, sometimes it just keeps on spinning with no apparent wind, other times there seems to be wind and it just sits.

Mostly though, I remain amazed at just how well the damn thing works. Had this design been thought of first, I believe it likely that those touting the stuff we've always seen, especially the popular "lift" based models, would have simply been laughed at and faded away into obscurity. Ironically, it seems the opposite remains the prevailing wisdom for now.
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Old 11-03-2016, 09:18 PM
Dingus Dingus is offline
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This looks like an ordinary impeller fan with a somewhat concave cone in the middle.

I'd like to try this out, maybe use it as a water turbine in the future.
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Old 11-03-2016, 10:36 PM
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Mike Waters

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Originally Posted by Dingus View Post
This looks like an ordinary impeller fan with a somewhat concave cone in the middle.

I'd like to try this out, maybe use it as a water turbine in the future.
Those actually will work to a certain level.

In Mike Water's presentation, you'll learn that the shape of the blades is very important as well as a few other modifications to have an optimum design so it is definitely much more than just a squirrel cage fan.
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Old 11-04-2016, 01:52 AM
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Amazing

It funny, years ago in the later 80's i cam up with an idea to put a temperature gauge on the out side of a refrigerator in my marketing class and also a wing shape front face wind turbine. i was told i was crazy by my marketing teacher...... guess who has the patent.

imagine that.

MM
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Old 11-04-2016, 05:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
Those actually will work to a certain level.

In Mike Water's presentation, you'll learn that the shape of the blades is very important as well as a few other modifications to have an optimum design so it is definitely much more than just a squirrel cage fan.
Is there a CAD file included, or are the dimensions used detailed in the presentation/powerpoint?

I wanted to build a portable wind turbine for a project I'm working on, but the vacuum created behind the impeller would make too much drag to mount on a moving object. But it gave me an idea for a generator I've never seen before. If/when I get around to making it, I'll make a thread about it.
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Old 11-04-2016, 05:58 AM
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turbine design

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Originally Posted by Dingus View Post
Is there a CAD file included, or are the dimensions used detailed in the presentation/powerpoint?

I wanted to build a portable wind turbine for a project I'm working on, but the vacuum created behind the impeller would make too much drag to mount on a moving object. But it gave me an idea for a generator I've never seen before. If/when I get around to making it, I'll make a thread about it.
A CAD file is not included.

A cowling can be used to manipulate the air flow moving out the blades and to the back of the turbine.
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Old 11-05-2016, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
A CAD file is not included.
So does it actually give the details on the shape of the blades, or just say that it's very important, then leave out any way to perfectly replicate it?

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A cowling can be used to manipulate the air flow moving out the blades and to the back of the turbine.
Wouldn't that reduce efficiency significantly?
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Old 11-05-2016, 01:05 AM
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turbine design

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So does it actually give the details on the shape of the blades, or just say that it's very important, then leave out any way to perfectly replicate it?

Wouldn't that reduce efficiency significantly?
The shape of the blades are explained - at least what they need to accomplish. Air goes from inside the turbine and is sped up as it passes the blades. The turbine, when built as intended, is a 3 stage air compressor.

I do not know if that will reduce efficiency or not and on a moving application, the wind exiting the blades will be blown to the rear so there probably is not the same amount of vacuum there compared to a fixed application.
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Old 11-05-2016, 03:18 AM
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Then it might be worth looking into using cyclorotor-like blade pitch control system. Could also be useful for converting side-force into forward-thrust, or balancing any undesirable gyroscopic effects.
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Old 11-05-2016, 04:03 AM
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replication

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Then it might be worth looking into using cyclorotor-like blade pitch control system. Could also be useful for converting side-force into forward-thrust, or balancing any undesirable gyroscopic effects.
I would do it 100% exactly as Mike Waters specifies first so it is an authentic duplication of his work, but I'm sure it will be on ongoing project.
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Old 11-05-2016, 09:45 PM
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I'd do it 100% exactly as Mike Waters specifies first, but I've yet to find any specifications to work with aside from it being a squirrel cage. I figured the video would go into more detail, but you've made it pretty clear that it doesn't. Being able to vary the angle of the blades seems like my best option.
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Old 11-16-2016, 10:44 PM
grumblenuts grumblenuts is offline
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Quote:
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Then it might be worth looking into using cyclorotor-like blade pitch control system. Could also be useful for converting side-force into forward-thrust, or balancing any undesirable gyroscopic effects.
I like the way you think, but Aaron's instincts better in this case. Controlling the blade pitch is easy to imagine, to me at least, and seems like a natural fit with trying airfoil shaped blades. But right away, doing the former destroys the simple, lightweight structural integrity of thing and adds moving moving parts to worry about breaking and rusting.

Likewise, changing the blade shape from simply flat may or may not prove slightly advantageous at potentially great relative cost. As Aaron seems to sense, it's analogous to neither an airplane wing nor propeller*. I believe the acceleration discussed is not much and mainly attributable to vacuum pressure from behind the rotor. So in addition to turning due to direct wind pressure, a bit more air is being sucked around the edge from behind.

{* ask me about propellers and anemometers)

Keep in mind this was designed to work at low wind speed, whereas lift implies improved efficiency as velocity increases front to back or, in other words, high-wind/fast-airplane. While the wind obviously goes from front to back of the whole thing, the bulk of air that passes through the blades locally has to travel radially from inside to out.

Add the increased difficulty of making and mounting airfoils compared to slats and I seriously doubt any net advantage is achievable.

Even the evident bend in the blades of a squirrel cage fan could be entirely attributable to minimizing weight and material, i.e. lower manufacturing cost. A simple sheet metal bend adds significant linear strength enabling lower mass. However, Mike Waters agreeing or no, it doesn't seem likely to be quite as efficient at blowing or sucking air. I think motors having somewhat more HP than might otherwise be needed are fitted. Not their electric bill! Their main concern being to keep the price of their bathroom fans slightly less than their nearest competitor's on Home Depot's shelves.

It's perfectly natural to always wanna f**k with success rather than just KISS it (keep it simple stupid).
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Last edited by grumblenuts; 11-16-2016 at 10:54 PM. Reason: word added for enhanced double meaning, lol!
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  #27  
Old 11-19-2016, 12:46 AM
Dingus Dingus is offline
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I like to brainstorm more than I like to actually do things. But I do tend to over-complicate things, but that's ok until I actually get around to building something. I'm far to lazy to ever build something as complicated as a cyclorotor system to test the fan. I currently lack any good means of experimenting with this turbine, so I'm not going to bother until I can get all the information I need to accurately replicate it.

I never intended to use the turbine as a propulsion system, but I had concerns about the drag it'd create since I hoped on putting a small wind turbine on an electric scooter so I could recharge the batteries even if they get low while I'm far from an outlet. I did recently salvage a squirrel cage & motor from a microwave, but it's small & I'd probably also be better off finding a DC motor.
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Old 11-20-2016, 11:37 PM
grumblenuts grumblenuts is offline
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Quote:
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I had concerns about the drag it'd create since I hoped on putting a small wind turbine on an electric scooter
That reminds me. With no load, as I've operated (what I'll continue referring to as) "the thing" here so far and suggested above, I envision the air mostly traveling directly from the center as it passes through the blades (or "slat ring" as I call it). It can't just stop instantaneously and begin travelling perpendicularly with the wind. It must keep going outward some distance before doing otherwise.

This not only increases the "drag" you're so sensibly worried about, but effectively increases the overall diameter of the obstacle presented to the wind or the "working" diameter if you will.

Significantly, I would think, and even more as wind speed increases. The bigger effective diameter, in turn, causing more back pressure against the wind, resulting in more air passing through the blades, more potential power (for a fixed generator purpose). And explaining, to some degree, Waters claims of it doing the equivalent of larger diameter traditional rotors.

Now, when I do finally get around to actually "using" the thing (loading it in other words), the radiating air will now be resisted in significant measure at an oblique angle or encouraged to swirl* if you will. The effective diameter will decrease somewhat, likely 50% less than the maximum increase at optimal efficiency. The "Velocity Profile" Aaron shared above actually confirms that the diameter indeed remains effectively increased under load.

{* - create a clockwise or counterclockwise vortex band, depending upon which way the blades are mounted)

Just needed practically any old excuse to put that bucket of yammer down on virtual paper.

So thanks!
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Old 11-20-2016, 11:57 PM
grumblenuts grumblenuts is offline
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I keep saying "air", but obviously the analysis would apply with "the thing" placed in any fluid, though I imagine any "gyroscopic effects" to be even less of a concern than the little bit they currently appear to be on my version.
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Old 12-08-2016, 04:38 AM
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I was reading about Wind turbine syndrome, the negative health effects of infrasound caused by wind turbines & ended up thinking about Mike Waters's design again. Does this design produce any more or less infrasound than a traditional design?
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