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 Renewable Energy Discussion on various alternative energy, renewable energy, & free energy technologies. Also any discussion about the environment, global warming, and other related topics are welcome here.

#1
07-07-2016, 02:44 PM
 Allen Burgess Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,259
BEMF current reversal.

"Citfa" got me booted off the OU site falsely maintaining that BEMF current traveled in the same direction as the initial EMF. Now "Tinman" is using my theory that BEMF current is reversed and traveling in the opposite direction.

"If the coil is ideal,then the CEMF should always equal that of the EMF,by way of the induced currents by both-correct.
So this being the case, at T=0,there would have to be a current rise,and that rise in current value must start from 0. Through the transition to 800ma?second,it must first produce a current value much less than that--it must start from a value of 0. As soon as a current rise started taking place,due to the EMF(before the maximum value of 800ma/second),it would induce a CEMF that results in producing a current that is in opposition to that of the EMF induced current."

Here's what Tinman had to say about it in November of 2015: "No Synchro,the current dose not reverse direction"

Re: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)

« Reply #52 on: November 19, 2015, 12:04:15 AM »

Quote

Quote from: synchro1 on November 18, 2015, 11:01:21 PM

@Milehigh,

This is a quote from you from above:

"Some of the input energy remains at the end of the pulse on the rotor and it becomes the flyback pulse".

This is nonsense! Here's what happens:

The coil is energized by the electrical current. A magnetic field appears in the coil. The current is stopped and the magnetic field collapses. There's no left over current in the coil at this point!

This is the flyback pulse! The faster the current is cut off to the coil the higher the flyback voltage. The magnet rotor can't have any effect on the power coil when the Reed switch is open.

Additionally, the magnetic field collapse generates a longitudinal scaler wave that has an "Impulse Magnetizing" effect. This power is infinite!

Quote

The magnetic field collapse generates a new hi-voltage current. As the field collapses the field is moving in the opposite direction from the expanding field and generates a new current in the opposite directions as it passes inward across the windings.

@Tinman,

No Synchro,the current dose not reverse direction-->only the voltage across the coil/inductor inverts. You apply a current in one direction to build the magnetic field around the inductor= current to form magnetic field. Then when the supply current is cut off,the magnetic field collapses,and creates a current flow=magnetic field changing in time to create current flow through the inductor. As the magnetic field around that inductor has not inverted (swapped polarities),then the current flow remains in the same direction.

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Last edited by Allen Burgess; 07-07-2016 at 03:13 PM.
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#2
07-07-2016, 05:26 PM
 Allen Burgess Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,259
mispelling.

Another important point is that Mr."Know-it-All Tinman" consistently misspells the verb "does" as the medical term "dose"; Something else that has helped keep everyone completely bamboozled.
Attached Images
 p26353_p_v8_aa.jpg (134.7 KB, 14 views)
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Last edited by Allen Burgess; 07-07-2016 at 05:33 PM.
#3
07-07-2016, 05:45 PM
 bistander Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 841
Inductor

Hi Allen,

Your terminology is confusing. "BEMF current"? What is it? A voltage? Or a current? Can't be both.

The behavior of voltage across the inductor and current through the inductor is well established during the storing of energy (building the magnetic field) and during the decaying of the energy (collapsing magnetic field).

As you can see, IL (current through the inductor) is in the same direction for both the storage and the decay phase. VL (voltage across the inductor)is opposite polarity for the decay phase.

Hope that helps,

bi

{edit of 7/24/2016} I now regret making this post. I never had any contact with Allen before this thread. I was simply trying to help him by providing useful reference material and suggestions. For no good reason Allen became rude and insults me. He says not to bother him with facts because he wants to invent new ways. Allen doesn't know what he's talking about and doesn't want to know. My advice is to avoid him.
Also many of Allen's statements are incorrect or false. I wouldn't believe anything from him.
Attached Images
 Inductor V & I.png (78.1 KB, 586 views)
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Last edited by bistander; 07-25-2016 at 12:14 AM.
#4
07-07-2016, 06:09 PM
 Allen Burgess Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,259
Bemf

@bistander,

Here's a video from Igor Moroz:

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#5
07-07-2016, 06:41 PM
 bistander Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 841
Looks like it is an AC circuit. He mentions high frequency. Power supply stays connected and has circuit elements like capacitors. I'm not interested in analyzing it. But if you want to, I suggest using a scope.

{edit} I watched the video again. It is pretty low quality. But I guess there is a spinning magnet near the coil. If this changing flux links the coil then there will be a generated voltage in the coil per Faraday's Law and its polarity would in fact oppose the supply voltage according to Lenz. This voltage is summed with the induced voltage in the coil caused by the changing current and coil inductance.

I don't think this guy knows what he's doing. If he is attempting to freewheel through the LED, he's located it incorrectly. Also LEDs make for poor switches.

bi
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Last edited by bistander; 07-07-2016 at 09:25 PM. Reason: Addition
#6
07-08-2016, 12:29 AM
 Allen Burgess Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,259
LED Reed Switch Motor.

@bistander,

Here's another even more basic video by Lidmotor. Please have a look at this video and comment on the direction of flyback as outlined by Lidmotor. Lidmotor states that: "When the switch opens up, the energy pulls back in the other direction".

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Last edited by Allen Burgess; 07-08-2016 at 12:36 AM.
#7
07-08-2016, 01:56 AM
 Allen Burgess Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,259
Comment from Lidmotor.

Comment from Lidmotor:

"I know what you are talking about. Reed switches have a nasty habit of welding together --in the CLOSED POSITION! Bad situation. That is another reason that I found this homemade one very interesting. If I keep the power down on it the thing keeps working. The flyback return circuit may have something to do with it. The arc welding doesn't happen. The LED steel wires are plated with some metal that might also help. Don't know".

@bistander,

Both Igor's and Lidmotor's LED'S are reverse biased. The back spike travels from the coil through the LED to the positive pole of the power source in each circuit. The positive pole acts as a "ground" for a reverse polarized current emanating from the field collapse, right?
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Last edited by Allen Burgess; 07-08-2016 at 02:05 AM.
#8
07-08-2016, 02:08 AM
 bistander Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 841
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Allen Burgess @bistander, Here's another even more basic video by Lidmotor. Please have a look at this video and comment on the direction of flyback as outlined by Lidmotor. Lidmotor states that: "When the switch opens up, the energy pulls back in the other direction". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9NnPa6uryg
This guy has the LED wired as a freewheeling diode in a basic chopper circuit. Current flows in the same direction through the coil during both on & off periods of the switch. The coil voltage reverses when the switch opens.

The energy during both switch states is used to rotate the rotor and make heat in the resistive circuit elements.
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Last edited by bistander; 07-08-2016 at 02:15 AM. Reason: Addition
#9
07-08-2016, 03:06 AM
 Ufopolitics Platinum Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: US, Florida Posts: 4,471

Even though this "Dilemma" about the collapsing magnetic field in a coil and the current flow, the voltage reversal or the field... is such an old one...and still it has not been revealed or understood in its entirety...

As I understand Current does not "flow" anywhere...current (I) or Amps...is just a Sectional Measurement on a given conductor which means the "population" of electrons in that cross section.

Voltage doesn't flow either...it is just the measurement between V1 and V2 or two points in a given piece of conductor...or circuit.

But we still keep referring to current and voltage "flows"...I guess is given by trying to find a proper understanding of the whole thing.

The only truth is that the only "thing" that really flows...are the Electrons through the wires.

One fact is known...and able to be demonstrated...Voltage polarity does reverses (at the end terminals of coil, inductor) when field collapses.

I just have a very simple question...

What happens to magnetic polarity whenever we reverse the input voltage polarity at the coil end terminals?

As I also know that everything depends on the coil core type...and many other parameters...

Regards to all

Ufopolitics
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#10
07-08-2016, 04:25 AM
 bistander Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 841
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Allen Burgess @bistander, Both Igor's and Lidmotor's LED'S are reverse biased. The back spike travels from the coil through the LED to the positive pole of the power source in each circuit. The positive pole acts as a "ground" for a reverse polarized current emanating from the field collapse, right?
No Allen, that is not right. Igor's circuit is a mess. No further comment from me. Lidmotor has it right. The diode is reverse biased when the switch is closed and conducts when the switch opens. When the switch opens, the battery is out of the circuit. Suggest you study buck converter. You're just using a rotor mounted magnet to commutate the switch. Interesting toy but I see no use for the contraption.

Regards,

bi
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#11
07-08-2016, 05:13 AM
 aljhoa Gold Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,106
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ufopolitics The only truth is that the only "thing" that really flows...are the Electrons through the wires.
MIT Physics Demo -- Dissectible Capacitor

Theoria Apophasis1 year ago
You morons, the video is accurate, but your BS understanding is WRONG, its because glass is a dielectric capacitor GO LEARN SOMETHING, read Tesla and Eric P Dollard﻿

Al
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#12
07-08-2016, 01:01 PM
 bistander Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 841
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ufopolitics I just have a very simple question... What happens to magnetic polarity whenever we reverse the input voltage polarity at the coil end terminals?
Hi Ufo,

Isn't this the case whenever you apply AC to a coil, like to the primary of a transformer? The magnetic field responds to the current in the coil. As it reverses so does the field. If the magnetic circuit linking the coil has an air gap where magnetic poles can be identified as N & S, then N-S would alternate to S-N at the applied frequency. Is that what you mean by "magnetic polarity"?

bi
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#13
07-08-2016, 01:38 PM
 Allen Burgess Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,259
Current reversal.

@bistander,

Let's say we have an inductor with a switch on each electrode connected to the poles of a power source. What would happen if we disconnected the coil rapidly first from the negative side? I imagine the collapsing field would reverse the voltage polarity and the current would flow to the positive pole. Now, cutting the power from the positive side should cause the voltage to reverse polarity and the current to flow in the opposite direction to the negative pole. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Wiring two LED's, one to each side of the coil, the positive side reverse biased, should produce a brief flash in both directions, right?
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Last edited by Allen Burgess; 07-08-2016 at 01:45 PM.
#14
07-08-2016, 02:31 PM
 bistander Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 841
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Allen Burgess @bistander, Let's say we have an inductor with a switch on each electrode connected to the poles of a power source. What would happen if we disconnected the coil rapidly first from the negative side? I imagine the collapsing field would reverse the voltage polarity and the current would flow to the positive pole. Now, cutting the power from the positive side should cause the voltage to reverse polarity and the current to flow in the opposite direction to the negative pole. Correct me if I'm wrong. Wiring two LED's, one to each side of the coil, the positive side reverse biased, should produce a brief flash in both directions, right?
Hello Allen,

No offense intended, but it is obvious that you lack a basic understanding of electricity and circuits. I'm sorry but I cannot teach you all you need to learn to make sense out of your questions and answers I might offer. There are some good on-line tutorials, great text books and, of course, schools where you can gain an education in electricity.

Let me conclude by saying that you are wrong in your imaginary analysis. Maybe another member will correct you.

Good luck,

bi
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#15
07-08-2016, 03:56 PM
 Allen Burgess Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,259
Flux switching generator.

@bistander,

This guy has two reversed LED'S; One lights when he generates a magnetic field in the coil, and the other lights, facing backwards, when he collapses it:

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#16
07-08-2016, 04:06 PM
 bistander Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 841
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Allen Burgess @bistander, This guy has two reversed LED'S; One lights when he generates a magnetic field in the coil, and the other lights, facing backwards, when he collapses it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI5ERdvroec
Thanks Allen but I really don't care. And as I previously mentioned, LEDs don't make good power switches.

Good bi
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#17
07-08-2016, 04:14 PM
 Allen Burgess Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,259
Folding.

@bistander,

You're another example of someone who acts like they have special knowledge; then when challenged to support their positions, turns to degrading insults to cover their ignorance.

You called Igor's "Reed Switch Spinner ll Schematic" a mess when it consists of merely two simple components: A Reed Switch and an LED! You act like you've never seen any of his videos before and you're telling me to start off with some rudimentary text books. Where have you been?
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#18
07-08-2016, 04:57 PM
 bistander Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 841
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Allen Burgess @bistander, You're another example of someone who acts like they have special knowledge; then when challenged to support their positions, turns to degrading insults to cover their ignorance. You called Igor's "Reed Switch Spinner ll Schematic" a mess when it consists of merely two simple components: A Reed Switch and an LED! You act like you've never seen any of his videos before and you're telling me to start off with some rudimentary text books. Where have you been?
Well Allen, I was just trying to help with a lesson on inductance which you did not appear to understand. You kept after me for more explanations of other people's experiments concerning a subject I have not been following nor have any interest in analyzing. No good deed goes unpunished, as they say.

bi
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#19
07-08-2016, 09:43 PM
 john_g Silver Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 514
Position of voltmeter

Hi All

Re the direction reversal, I wrote the attached a few years back, that may be of help. It depends upon the position of the voltmeter.

Kind regards

John
Attached Images
 Inductive Spike-1-1.jpg (113.2 KB, 43 views) Inductive Spike-1-2.jpg (86.5 KB, 41 views)
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#20
07-09-2016, 07:24 PM
 Allen Burgess Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,259
Voltmeter position.

@John g,

Thank you very much. That last post was extremely helpful for me.
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#21
07-09-2016, 09:52 PM
 john_g Silver Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 514
Hi Allen

Many thanks for that. Attached are couple of my ramblings with LEDs and inductors that may be of interest.

Kind regards

John
Attached Files
 Inductive Collapse with a LED.pdf (183.6 KB, 31 views) leedskalin.pdf (577.4 KB, 41 views)
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#22
07-09-2016, 10:37 PM
 Allen Burgess Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,259
LED current direction.

@John g,

"The direction of the induced current caused by the collapsing field will be in the reverse direction compared with the direction when the field was built, thus the red LED flashes, Fig 12".

This language sounds a bit puzzeling when compared with the "Same direction rule", and clearly underscores the apparent paradox.

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Last edited by Allen Burgess; 07-09-2016 at 10:52 PM.
#23
07-10-2016, 03:36 PM
 john_g Silver Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 514
Hi Allen

No paradox, we now have 2 windings and 2 opposing fields, please see, very rough video:

Kind regards

John
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#24
07-10-2016, 04:36 PM
 Allen Burgess Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,259
woopyjump.

@john g,

Here's Woopyjump's scope shot and the two windings schematic that started the argument: Can you please help explain what's really going on here?
Attached Images
 untitled.png (939.2 KB, 23 views) woppyjump.png (374.2 KB, 29 views)
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Last edited by Allen Burgess; 07-10-2016 at 04:49 PM.
#25
07-11-2016, 11:01 AM
 john_g Silver Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 514

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Allen Burgess @john g, Here's Woopyjump's scope shot and the two windings schematic that started the argument: Can you please help explain what's really going on here?
Hi Allen

Do you have a link to the video the screen shot was taken from?

Kind regards

John
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#26
07-11-2016, 04:45 PM
 Allen Burgess Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,259
Woopyjump video

@John g,

Here they are; "Capturing energy from the Flyback Spike" 1 & 2:

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Last edited by Allen Burgess; 07-11-2016 at 05:00 PM.
#27
07-12-2016, 11:23 PM
 Dave45 Platinum Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 2,501
Quote:
 Originally Posted by john_g Hi All Re the direction reversal, I wrote the attached a few years back, that may be of help. It depends upon the position of the voltmeter. Kind regards John
The spike is pos,
If the pos spike is ran into another coil its spike or collapse will be neg.
So what does this imply, the collapsing field is zero energy accumulated from the aether, opposites attract.
We create the magnetic field but the aether supply's the electric field or eddy currents if you will.
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#28
07-12-2016, 11:37 PM
 Dave45 Platinum Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 2,501
The magnetic field does not turn electric when it collapses, its eddy currents that create the spike.
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#29
07-12-2016, 11:42 PM
 Dave45 Platinum Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 2,501
Research eddy currents Hi-Techndt
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Half of the Answer is knowing the right Question
#30
07-13-2016, 12:02 AM
 Dave45 Platinum Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 2,501
https://youtu.be/0d6chzb7Z1c
What you are seeing in this vid is the eddy currents of a magnet being ionized using high voltage.
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