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 Renewable Energy Discussion on various alternative energy, renewable energy, & free energy technologies. Also any discussion about the environment, global warming, and other related topics are welcome here.

#181
04-21-2017, 02:55 AM
 Allen Burgess Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,094
Reluctance and reactance.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by bistander Still don't know the difference between reluctance and reactance, do you?
@bistander,

Reactance is the resistance in the inductor to current that increases as frequency increases. After a magnetic field develops in the inductor, we calculate the resistance to the fluctuating current as Reluctance, and the Reluctance is directly proportional to the magnetic field strength of the Inductor.

The higher the frequency of the input the higher the Reactance of the Inductor. Got it? The higher the magnetic field strength in the Inductor, the higher the Reluctance.

Why not take some time to think these things over for yourself if you're new to them?
__________________

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#182
04-21-2017, 04:42 AM
 bistander Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 787
Reluctance

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Allen Burgess ... After a magnetic field develops in the inductor, we calculate the resistance to the fluctuating current as Reluctance, and the Reluctance is directly proportional to the magnetic field strength of the Inductor. ... The higher the magnetic field strength in the Inductor, the higher the Reluctance. ..
These two statements are incorrect.

It is ambiguous as to exactly what you mean by magnetic field strength (is it intensity or density?), but decreasing the reluctance in a magnetic circuit increases the flux for a given mmf, which is opposite to the impression given by your two statements. Insert an iron core into a coil and you will increase the magnetic field for a given current. This will lower the reluctance. That lower reluctance will increase the coil's inductance which will increase its reactance and it will resist changing current more than the air core coil (higher reluctance).

Inductance in Terms of Magnetic Reluctance and Magnetic Permeance

See equation [4-32]. Inductance = turns squared / reluctance. Also note that since turns is deminsionless, inductance and reluctance have inverse units.

So as reluctance decreases, inductance increases which increases reactance and impedance which resist changing current.
__________________

#183
04-21-2017, 10:16 AM
 Allen Burgess Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,094
Quote:
 Originally Posted by bistander These two statements are incorrect. It is ambiguous as to exactly what you mean by magnetic field strength (is it intensity or density?), but decreasing the reluctance in a magnetic circuit increases the flux for a given mmf, which is opposite to the impression given by your two statements. Insert an iron core into a coil and you will increase the magnetic field for a given current. This will lower the reluctance. That lower reluctance will increase the coil's inductance which will increase its reactance and it will resist changing current more than the air core coil (higher reluctance). Inductance in Terms of Magnetic Reluctance and Magnetic Permeance See equation [4-32]. Inductance = turns squared / reluctance. Also note that since turns is deminsionless, inductance and reluctance have inverse units. So as reluctance decreases, inductance increases which increases reactance and impedance which resist changing current.
@bistander,

Thanks for raising this issue:

"Air and vacuum have high reluctance, while easily magnetized materials such as soft iron have low reluctance. The concentration of flux in low-reluctance materials forms strong temporary poles and causes mechanical forces that tend to move the materials towards regions of higher flux so it is always an attractive force (pull)".

Your formula introduces "The relative magnetic permeability of the core material" The formula I posted is for an "Air Core" inductor. Magnetic flux takes the path of least resistance. The low reluctance core acts as a pathway for the flux. You're right that the inclusion of the ferrite core increases inductance, but the low reluctance of the ferrite core presents an avenue for the flux to travel through, so any increased resistance from charge is canceled. My analysis works with an air core "Windings Charge" only.
__________________

Last edited by Allen Burgess; 04-21-2017 at 11:15 AM.
#184
04-21-2017, 12:34 PM
 bistander Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 787
What?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Allen Burgess @bistander, Thanks for raising this issue: "Air and vacuum have high reluctance, while easily magnetized materials such as soft iron have low reluctance. The concentration of flux in low-reluctance materials forms strong temporary poles and causes mechanical forces that tend to move the materials towards regions of higher flux so it is always an attractive force (pull)". Your formula introduces "The relative magnetic permeability of the core material" The formula I posted is for an "Air Core" inductor. Magnetic flux takes the path of least resistance. The low reluctance core acts as a pathway for the flux. You're right that the inclusion of the ferrite core increases inductance, but the low reluctance of the ferrite core presents an avenue for the flux to travel through, so any increased resistance from charge is canceled. My analysis works with an air core "Windings Charge" only.
Quote:
 My analysis works with an air core "Windings Charge" only.
This goes miles off-topic. You claim reluctance of an air core coil changes with the level of induction. Look back at your graphic which I have reposted several times. See his formula for calculating reluctance. Either your coil would need to change shape or the permeability of space changes. Neither are likely. Believe what you want. I'm through.

bi
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#185
04-21-2017, 12:53 PM
 Allen Burgess Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,094
Quote:
 Originally Posted by bistander This goes miles off-topic. You claim reluctance of an air core coil changes with the level of induction. Look back at your graphic which I have reposted several times. See his formula for calculating reluctance. Either your coil would need to change shape or the permeability of space changes. Neither are likely. Believe what you want. I'm through. bi
@bistander,

The reluctance changes with the level of magnetic force. The magnetic force level acts like Ohmic resistance in the "Resistance Formula". The higher the Ohms the higher the resistance in the circuit, and equally, the greater the magnetic force in the inductor, the greater the Reluctance! Got it?
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Last edited by Allen Burgess; 04-21-2017 at 12:58 PM.
#186
04-21-2017, 12:54 PM
 Allen Burgess Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,094
Negative Henry.

Quote from Tinselkoala:

"A negative correlation has nothing to do with "negative Henry" nor does it imply that one or the other of the correlated variables is "negative". By posting what you have posted you reveal that you do not understand correlation or inverse relationships".

Tinselkoala can not find a correlation between the "Inverse Henry" term of magnetic reluctance, and the minus sign that appears before the number on the inductance meter when set to read in Henries. He always couples his misstatements with some kind of personal insult. (He's revealing his stupidity again) to help make his malarkey stick.
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#187
04-21-2017, 01:16 PM
 Allen Burgess Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,094
Lenz's Law:

When a magnet approaches a coil, a current runs in one direction and the ammeter registers a plus indicating a positive current. When the magnet's pulled away from the coil, the current runs in the opposite direction and the ammeter registers a negative indicating a reverse or negative current.
Attached Images
 Lenz's law.png (12.1 KB, 0 views)
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#188
04-21-2017, 01:20 PM
 Allen Burgess Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,094
Negative current and Henries.

Tinselkoala maintains that "Negative Current" is imaginary, even though we measure it with our amp meters. It comes as no surprise to anyone when we see him try and pull the same stunt and invalidate a "Negative Henry" reading on our inductance meters as again imaginary.
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#189
04-21-2017, 01:38 PM
 bistander Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 787
Bull

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Allen Burgess @bistander, The reluctance changes with the level of magnetic force. The magnetic force level acts like Ohmic resistance in the "Resistance Formula". The higher the Ohms the higher the resistance in the circuit, and equally, the greater the magnetic force in the inductor, the greater the Reluctance! Got it?
Pure BS. You can show no supporting theory or derivation, or find anyone in the world agreeing with you. Could it be you're wrong?
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#190
04-21-2017, 02:58 PM
 RAMSET Gold Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: NYC and Conn USA Posts: 1,233
Allen you burn thru people ....trying to find support for your vendetta against
a man who only tried to help you [one of many ]

most have not got a clue what you are actually talking about
perhaps you can teach here and leave out the finger pointing

if your argument has merit ...
it needs no screaming yelling or funny movies

it should be able to withstand investigation.
I would imagine a build to prove your....Whatsit

just one mans opinion
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#191
04-21-2017, 04:01 PM
 Allen Burgess Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,094
BS

Quote:
 Originally Posted by bistander Pure BS. You can show no supporting theory or derivation, or find anyone in the world agreeing with you. Could it be you're wrong?
@bistander,

You can't read nor understand basic algebraic expressions. You hide your ignorance with insults just like your protégé.

Watch this video:

https://www.coursera.org/learn/elect...netic-circuits
__________________

Last edited by Allen Burgess; 04-21-2017 at 04:08 PM.
#192
04-21-2017, 04:20 PM
 Allen Burgess Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,094

Quote:
 Originally Posted by RAMSET Allen you burn thru people ....trying to find support for your vendetta against a man who only tried to help you [one of many ] most have not got a clue what you are actually talking about perhaps you can teach here and leave out the finger pointing if your argument has merit ... it needs no screaming yelling or funny movies it should be able to withstand investigation. I would imagine a build to prove your....Whatsit just one mans opinion
@ramset,

The moderators killed the bifilar thread not the commentators. You did this with culpable bias. TK kept complaining about my "Fake Deaf Sign Interpreter" video parodying him, while I had to tolerate a video posted by Tinman of me in a straight jacket as Louis the 14th. Who moderates the moderators?

The only thing Tinselkoala would offer to help with is rearranging furniture in a home for the blind.
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#193
04-21-2017, 04:54 PM
 bistander Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 787
Circle

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Allen Burgess @bistander, You can't read nor understand basic algebraic expressions. You hide your ignorance with insults just like your protégé. Watch this video: https://www.coursera.org/learn/elect...netic-circuits
You have circled around to where I came in yesterday; to the very proof you're wrong. The link is to the University of Colorado Boulder lecture displaying and explaing (teaching) this graphic:

See the red highlighted line of characters? That is the definition of reluctance. There is no dependence on magnetic force as you claim.
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#194
04-21-2017, 04:58 PM
 Allen Burgess Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,094
Quote:
 Originally Posted by bistander You have circled around to where I came in yesterday; to the very proof you're wrong. The link is to the University of Colorado Boulder lecture displaying and explaing (teaching) this graphic: See the red highlighted line of characters? That is the definition of reluctance. There is no dependence on magnetic force as you claim.
@bistander,

Look again on the bottem left you'll see Reluctance times H-1. This means Reluctance multiplied by "Inverse Henries". Look at the right for the equivalent and you see Resistance multiplied by Ohms!

"Magnetic reluctance, or magnetic resistance, is a concept used in the analysis of magnetic circuits. It is analogous to resistance in an electrical circuit, but rather than dissipating electric energy it stores magnetic energy".

What are the units of stored magnetic energy?

The units are Teslas and Gauss! Therefore the (Reluctance is the product of the stored magnetic energy). The "Inverse Henry" is a measure of stored magnetic energy that factors into Tesla and Gauss.

The stored magnetic energy is similar to numbers of Ohms in the resistance formula. Both in brackets [ ].

@bistander,

This is at least the tenth time you made me repeat myself and I'm getting tired of it!
__________________

Last edited by Allen Burgess; 04-21-2017 at 05:24 PM.
#195
04-21-2017, 05:19 PM
 bistander Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 787
Confusing units still

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Allen Burgess @bystander, Look again on the bottem left you'll see Reluctance =H-1.
The characters inside the brackets [ and ] are the units, not variables or constants in the equation.

[Webers] are units of flux.

[A] are units of Ni. (or [amperes] are units of mmf, magnetomotive force, Ampere turns)

[H^-1] are units of reluctance. The unit for reluctance is the inverse henry.

The units are not part of the equation which is why they are set in the brackets [ and ]. The units are not part of the arithmetic.

[ohms] are the units for R. It does not mean to multipy R times Omega.

[V] units for v. (or [volts] are the units for emf)

[A] units for i. (or [amperes] are the units for current)
__________________

Last edited by bistander; 04-21-2017 at 05:32 PM. Reason: Added some
#196
04-21-2017, 05:30 PM
 Allen Burgess Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,094
Quote:
 Originally Posted by bistander The characters inside the brackets [ and ] are the units, not variables or constants in the equation. [Webers] are units of flux. [A] are units of Ni. (or [amperes] are units of mmf, magnetomotive force, Ampere turns) [H^-1] are units of reluctance. The unit for reluctance is the inverse henry. The units are not part of the equation which is why they are set in the brackets [ and ]. The units are not part of the arithmetic.
@bistander,

You're telling us Ohms are not part of the resistance formula arithmetic. This amounts to nothing more then ridiculous crap and I'm getting fed up with it. You are now officially on my "Ignore List".
__________________

Last edited by Allen Burgess; 04-21-2017 at 05:36 PM.
#197
04-21-2017, 05:40 PM
 bistander Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 787
Not

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Allen Burgess @bistander, Look again on the bottem left you'll see Reluctance times H-1. This means Reluctance multiplied by "Inverse Henries". Look at the right for the equivalent and you see Resistance multiplied by Ohms! "Magnetic reluctance, or magnetic resistance, is a concept used in the analysis of magnetic circuits. It is analogous to resistance in an electrical circuit, but rather than dissipating electric energy it stores magnetic energy". What are the units of stored magnetic energy? The units are Teslas and Gauss! Therefore the (Reluctance is the product of the stored magnetic energy). The "Inverse Henry" is a measure of stored magnetic energy that factors into Tesla and Gauss. The stored magnetic energy is similar to numbers of Ohms in the resistance formula. Both in brackets [ ]. @bistander, This is at least the tenth time you made me repeat myself and I'm getting tired of it!
The tesla and the gauss are units of magnetic flux density or B field, not energy. The unit for energy is joule.
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#198
04-21-2017, 05:41 PM
 SlickDick Senior Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 108
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Allen Burgess @bistander, You're telling us Ohms are not part of the resistance formula arithmetic. This amounts to nothing more then ridiculous crap and I'm getting fed up with it.
bi basically explains how to properly read the formulas. This is important because if you can't, you're cleuless.

Granted bi's way of sharing his knowledge is not the best way of handling things socially. I am sure he means well though...
__________________
All the best,

Slick
#199
04-21-2017, 05:47 PM
 bistander Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 787
Thanks

Quote:
 Originally Posted by SlickDick bi basically explains how to properly read the formulas. This is important because if you can't, you're cleuless. Granted bi's way of sharing his knowledge is not the best way of handling things socially. I am sure he means well though...
Slick,

Thank you, I think.

bi
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#200
04-21-2017, 09:12 PM
 Allen Burgess Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,094
Negative Inductance.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by SlickDick bi basically explains how to properly read the formulas. This is important because if you can't, you're cleuless. Granted bi's way of sharing his knowledge is not the best way of handling things socially. I am sure he means well though...
@Slickdick,

Re: what is the physical meaning of "Negative Inductance"?

"The most fundamental reason is that the electric energy stored in this element is more than the magnetic energy stored. Circuit designers interpret it as a capacitor".

Here's what I've gathered: Increased inductor field strength creates a reluctance to changing current, but some current that fails to pass is stored in the inductor along with the magnetic field. Now, this is referred to as "Positive Capacitance" except the frequency reactance is reversed. The amount of positive capacitance in an inductor of charged magnetic field strength is measured in 'Negative Henries" of inductance, and has to be proportional to the intensity of the flux field.
__________________

Last edited by Allen Burgess; 04-21-2017 at 10:11 PM.
#201
04-21-2017, 09:51 PM
 citfta Gold Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,193
It is absolutely amazing how mixed up a person can get when they let their ego over-ride their common sense. All these silly things you keep bringing up Allen have already been explained to you over and over again but you keep insisting you are the only one right and everyone else is wrong. At least 10 different people have told you that you are not correct in your use of electronic terms, your are not correct in your understanding of basic algebra and you are not correct in your understanding of electronics. But your ego will not let you admit you might be wrong and everyone else correct. You can continue posting another thousand posts with you mistaken ideas and all you will accomplish is to prove to more and more people you don't have a clue what you are posting about. Instead of wasting all that time why don't you actually study some real electronics books or online classes and try to really learn something. The things you have learned from DumbTube or wherever have not helped you to understand electronics.
__________________
Just because it is on YouTube does NOT make it real!!
#202
04-21-2017, 10:00 PM
 Allen Burgess Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,094
Law Suit

Quote:
 Originally Posted by citfta It is absolutely amazing how mixed up a person can get when they let their ego over-ride their common sense. All these silly things you keep bringing up Allen have already been explained to you over and over again but you keep insisting you are the only one right and everyone else is wrong. At least 10 different people have told you that you are not correct in your use of electronic terms, your are not correct in your understanding of basic algebra and you are not correct in your understanding of electronics. But your ego will not let you admit you might be wrong and everyone else correct. You can continue posting another thousand posts with you mistaken ideas and all you will accomplish is to prove to more and more people you don't have a clue what you are posting about. Instead of wasting all that time why don't you actually study some real electronics books or online classes and try to really learn something. The things you have learned from DumbTube or wherever have not helped you to understand electronics.
@Citfa,

I'm awaiting service here in Costa Rica for calling you a liar. I'm doubling down on that insult.
__________________

#203
04-21-2017, 11:48 PM
 bistander Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 787
Clueless

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Allen Burgess Re: what is the physical meaning of "Negative Inductance"? "The most fundamental reason is that the electric energy stored in this element is more than the magnetic energy stored. Circuit designers interpret it as a capacitor". Here's what I've gathered: Increased inductor field strength creates a reluctance to changing current, but some current that fails to pass is stored in the inductor along with the magnetic field. Now, this is referred to as "Positive Capacitance" except the frequency reactance is reversed. The amount of positive capacitance in an inductor of charged magnetic field strength is measured in 'Negative Henries" of inductance, and has to be proportional to the intensity of the flux field.
Hi citfta,

I agree with your post which follows the one from Allen which I quoted above. It is sad how he misuses the terms and draws invalid conclusions. It's obvious to those familiar with the science that he doesn't have a clue. Must be his ego as to why he wastes opportunities to learn the facts and truth. His loss.

bi
__________________

#204
04-22-2017, 05:36 AM
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Allen Burgess @Citfa, I'm awaiting service here in Costa Rica for calling you a liar. I'm doubling down on that insult.
We hope this can be resolved peacefully as it is against forum rules to insult other members here.

You've stated your case and probably can't add anything to your claims so if valid, should speak for themselves.

You did start this thread so you can request in your first post what topics you would like to cover and any disagreements can be made respectfully.

__________________
http://www.energeticforum.com
#205
04-22-2017, 06:11 AM
 BroMikey Platinum Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 4,293
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Allen Burgess Quote from Tinselkoala: "A negative correlation has nothing to do with "negative Henry" nor does it imply that one or the other of the correlated variables is "negative". By posting what you have posted you reveal that you do not understand correlation or inverse relationships". Tinselkoala can not find a correlation between the "Inverse Henry" term of magnetic reluctance, and the minus sign that appears before the number on the inductance meter when set to read in Henries. He always couples his misstatements with some kind of personal insult. (He's revealing his stupidity again) to help make his malarkey stick.

TK has been known to disagree with any extra energy thinking and is
stuck like so many on the conventional theories. I like what you say
Allen and you give a great explanation rather than doing what so many
other do, just one liner body slams. Your words are an alternative view
so many of us enjoy.

Stay cool and keep up the good work.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by citfta Allen specifically said meters. I have a very nice DSO. It will show a positive or negative current but only my training has taught me how to interpret that as a current direction. And Allen doesn't seem to believe the dozen or so scope shots he has been shown that clearly show NO reversal of current when the power is removed from an inductor.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by citfta Let's see some scope shots and meter readings to prove that theory. A video demonstrating this idea would be even better. Making up stuff is good for fairy tales but in the real world most of us want to see some proven facts demonstrated, not fantasy ideas.
__________________

Last edited by BroMikey; 04-22-2017 at 06:18 AM.
#206
04-22-2017, 10:43 AM
 Allen Burgess Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,094
Negative Inductance

The inductor's "B" field, or magnetic field, stores a tiny "H' field, or electric charge. This charge is measured by our inductance meters and is converted into "Negative Henries".

The question remains: Is the tiny "H" field in direct proportion to the coil's magnetic field strength? I maintain it is and can prove it.
__________________

#207
04-22-2017, 11:33 AM
 bistander Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 787
H field

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Allen Burgess The inductor's "B" field, or magnetic field, stores a tiny "H' field, or electric charge. This charge is measured by our inductance meters and is converted into "Negative Henries". The question remains: Is the tiny "H" field in direct proportion to the coil's magnetic field strength? I maintain it is and can prove it.
In the magnetic field, B and H are always proportional and that proportion is defined as the permability.

The H field is the magnetic driving force and is measured in ampere turns per meter where the length refers to the magnetic circuit of the coil.

Allen continues to confuse physical variables with units. H represents the vector quantity magnetic field whereas H is the abbreviation for henries, the units of inductance.
__________________

#208
04-22-2017, 01:11 PM
 Allen Burgess Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,094
Induction kills flyback.

This is an 8 1/2 year old video by "Fusionchip" AKA "Gadgetmall": It's a low quality video. Fusionchip disconnects the power battery and runs the pulse motor from a storage capacitor while the capacitor stores an increasing charge:

He accomplishes this with a "Piggyback Coil" that's attached to the rear end of a ferrite core that passes through the power coil and extends out the back. The "Flyback" from the power coil is sublimated to output current through induction to the piggyback coil. This results in an Overunity "Looped" self runner

Let's compare "Fusionchip's SSG" to Gotoluc's flyback secondary:

This video's from Woppyjump who's easier to understand:

The question is: Which approach is a more efficient use of this return energy from the inductor?
__________________

Last edited by Allen Burgess; 04-22-2017 at 01:32 PM.
#209
04-22-2017, 01:35 PM
 RAMSET Gold Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: NYC and Conn USA Posts: 1,233
a loud round of applause

We hope this can be resolved peacefully as it is against forum rules to insult other members here.

You've stated your case and probably can't add anything to your claims so if valid, should speak for themselves.

You did start this thread so you can request in your first post what topics you would like to cover and any disagreements can be made respectfully.

[/QUOTE]
end quote
-------------------------------------------------------------------

I wish other forums would have such attention to TOS agreements from membership .

this would make a forum grow for sure...

Bro
your comments on Tinsel are in error ...he actively seeks these anomalies
on a daily basis ..pondering or experimenting.

but it is not appropriate to discuss a member who cannot defend or interact here [TinselKoala?

perhaps the conversation should just rally around Allen's results .

they seem to have gotten lost in other issues ?

just one mans opinion

respectfully
Chet K
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Last edited by RAMSET; 04-22-2017 at 01:40 PM.
#210
04-22-2017, 02:19 PM
 Allen Burgess Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,094
Induction kills flyback

"Fusionchip's" SSG primary induction coil receives a power pulse from the source battery. Next, the induction coil stores the power in a magnetic field and drives the magnet rotor.

The magnetic field collapses and a "Negative Current" pulse passes into the ferrite core and generates a magnetic field in the core through induction. This magnetic core field is now bi-polar.

The magnet field passes through the core to the "Piggyback Coil" as a wave. The "Piggyback Coil" needs to be positioned on the ferrite core rod where the magnetic wave peak forms.

This magnet wave first generates a "Positive Current" in the "Piggyback Secondary" then when the magnetic field in the ferrite core collapses, another "Negative Current" is generated. These two opposing currents couple to generate an "Alternating Current" from the "Piggyback Output Coil" and this current is directed to a (Full Wave Bridge Rectifier) FWBR where it's rectified to D.C. and stored in the capacitor.

The SSG efficiency is very high; Coupled with the collected return current from the power coil, Fusionchip's COP is OU!
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Last edited by Allen Burgess; 04-22-2017 at 06:36 PM.

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