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  #31  
Old 07-13-2016, 01:02 AM
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Sputins Sputins is offline
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Contra-flow?

I like the Leedskalin attachment by john_g and the rubber band analogy.

It is interesting, one can say we have a Positive and Negative voltage (referenced to ground) but we almost never say we have a Positive or Negative current.

Electron current is generally seen or accepted as going one way only, unidirectional, from Negative to Positive.

Here’s a little experiment to try right now - (How to tell the difference between positive and negative (without a multimeter)):

Take a standard plug-pack AC to DC transformer, of say 10 or 12V DC or so. (The older transformer kind, not the switch mode types). Wet you thumb and index finger and hold the negative lead between them… Okay, with the other hand take the positive wire and touch your face with it, (your nose, under your eye, forehead or chin).

– You feel nothing right?

Okay, swap the wires over - now hold the positive wire...

Now touch your face again (same places) with the negative wire…

What do you feel?? …Why??

Have fun tormenting and puzzling your friends with this one.



?? Is there a form of electric flux where direction is opposite to the electron, a contra-flow? - If there is, we don’t or can’t detect it, we don’t use it…

What truly is a negative voltage, what truly is a negative current?
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Last edited by Sputins; 07-13-2016 at 01:05 AM.
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  #32  
Old 07-13-2016, 01:09 AM
Dave45 Dave45 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sputins View Post
I like the Leedskalin attachment by john_g and the rubber band analogy.

It is interesting, one can say we have a Positive and Negative voltage (referenced to ground) but we almost never say we have a Positive or Negative current.

Electron current is generally seen or accepted as going one way only, unidirectional, from Negative to Positive.

Here’s a little experiment to try right now - (How to tell the difference between positive and negative (without a multimeter)):

Take a standard plug-pack AC to DC transformer, of say 10 or 12V DC or so. (The older transformer kind, not the switch mode types). Wet you thumb and index finger and hold the negative lead between them… Okay, with the other hand take the positive wire and touch your face with it, (your nose, under your eye, forehead or chin).

– You feel nothing right?

Okay, swap the wires over - now hold the positive wire...

Now touch your face again (same places) with the negative wire…

What do you feel?? …Why??

Have fun tormenting and puzzling your friends with this one.



?? Is there a form of electric flux where direction is opposite to the electron, a contra-flow? - If there is, we don’t or can’t detect it, we don’t use it…

What truly is a negative voltage, what truly is a negative current?
If neg electrons flow from neg to pos and current flows from pos to neg then current is a product of electron flow.
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  #33  
Old 07-13-2016, 02:17 AM
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A study of the buck converter is eye opening, when the switch is off the current doesnt run to ground but cycles through the circuit, if it (current) was a product of the battery it would run straight to ground.

There is an animation on this page that illustrates the current flow in a buck converter. Buck Converters
This site also has a page on boost converters, cool site.
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Last edited by Dave45; 07-13-2016 at 02:27 AM.
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  #34  
Old 07-13-2016, 09:58 AM
citfta citfta is offline
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Great animation Dave45! It clearly shows that the current does NOT reverse during the discharge of the coil. THANKS for posting that. The scope shot posted earlier in this thread also clearly shows the current dropping to zero when the coil discharges. It does NOT show the current reversing. As has been explained many times on a lot of forums the voltage appears to change direction because during discharge the coil becomes the source and not the load. So the voltage changes polarity but the current continues to flow in the same direction until the coil is discharged.
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  #35  
Old 07-13-2016, 11:07 AM
Dave45 Dave45 is offline
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Yes voltage changing direction is also an indication that its the eddy currents that collapse when the magnetic field is turned off. Eddy currents create a magnetic field opposite the magnetic field that created them.

We can also see now how a coil passing a magnet steals energy from the magnet,
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  #36  
Old 07-13-2016, 11:30 AM
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If we take an iron rod an place it on the end of a magnet the magnetic field is expanded to include the iron rod and the iron rod is also engulfed in the magnets eddy currents, when the two are separated the eddy currents collapse and if a coil is wound on the iron rod the eddy currents collapse into the coil windings.

Thats how a coil takes energy from a magnet, the magnet draws energy from the ambient to replenish itself.
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  #37  
Old 07-13-2016, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citfta View Post
As has been explained many times on a lot of forums the voltage appears to change direction because during discharge the coil becomes the source and not the load. So the voltage changes polarity but the current continues to flow in the same direction until the coil is discharged.
Once again, your intelligence shines through!
This is a simple case of sign convention people don't get.
The conventional current flow (positive, so as to ignore those pesky electrons) flows in the same direction, as the coil switches from load to source as you mention above.

Richie Burnett also shows this to be the case in his description of dc resonant charging.

I think perhaps people get confused because they use mosfets that switch off and then use a diode to redirect the positive current back into the source battery. You can just as easily direct that positive current into the drain. That operation has nothing to do with the current flowing from a coil which is ALWAYS in the same direction.

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  #38  
Old 07-14-2016, 12:12 AM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is offline
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Current reversal.

@OrionLightShip,

John g demonstrates conclusively that the addition of ferrite cores, multiple windings and magnets reverses the direction of back spike current, so the use of "always" tends to be pedantic and misleading. There are legitimate exceptions to Cifta's hard and fast rule.
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  #39  
Old 07-14-2016, 12:44 AM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is offline
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Woopyjump's video

Woopyjump's primary and hi-voltage seconday power coils both have ferrite U cores. Woopyjump demonstrates the nullification effect of disconnecting the capacitor. Question; What role does the capacitor really play in the circuit? Answer; Double reversing the primary's original reversed current BEMF so the primary and secondary power coil polarities match.
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  #40  
Old 07-17-2016, 09:45 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is offline
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Buck converter animation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by citfta View Post
Great animation Dave45! It clearly shows that the current does NOT reverse during the discharge of the coil. THANKS for posting that. The scope shot posted earlier in this thread also clearly shows the current dropping to zero when the coil discharges. It does NOT show the current reversing. As has been explained many times on a lot of forums the voltage appears to change direction because during discharge the coil becomes the source and not the load. So the voltage changes polarity but the current continues to flow in the same direction until the coil is discharged.
The problem with this animation is that it depicts a solenoid coil wrapped around an air core. The Woopyjump coil under discussion has a laminated ferrite U core that's strongly influenced by spinning magnets. The ferrite U core retains a powerful magnetic flux field that's changing and requires the application of both Faraday's and Lenz's laws to determine the actual direction of BEMF current flow from the coil.
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  #41  
Old 07-17-2016, 11:17 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is offline
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Igor's "Reed Switch Spinner ll".

Comment from Igor's "Reed Switch Spinner ll":

neuthral4 years ago

"Wow, i replicated this circuit with 2 x AA's (reading about 1volt together), ferrite choke coil and 3 leds, that sucker has been running the whole night".

Igor's schematic shows one air core coil electrode connected to the ground, the other to the positive pole of the battery through a Reed switch. An LED is connected to both Reed switch electrodes with the cathode facing the positive pole. He's spinning a diametric neo sphere. Bistander called his circuit a "mess".

When the Reed switch opens, the backspike cannot travel accross the switch, and must pass through the reverse biased LED to the battery. The BEMF current cant be traveling in the same direction, or it would run into the ground.

What's the difference between "Igor's circuit" and the "Buck Coverter Animation"? Why dosen't the current run into the ground in the animation, but continue to loop through the circuit?

What effect does Igor's spinning magnet have on the apparent reverse direction of BEMF? The magnet spinner influences the coil with the same polarity bias every time the Reed Swtch opens. How does Lenz's law effect the powet coil polarity at this moment? How unfair is it to compare the overly simplistic "Buck Coverter animation" to a strong Lenz effect circuit like Igor's? Is it possible the BEMF is "Double Reversing" in Igor's video?

I'm reposting Igor's video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWvI7T7h3tk
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  #42  
Old 07-17-2016, 11:59 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Spelling

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Originally Posted by Allen Burgess View Post
Why dosen't the current run into the ground in...
Interesting spelling error.
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  #43  
Old 07-18-2016, 12:02 AM
bistander bistander is online now
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Repost of #2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Burgess View Post
Another important point is that Mr."Know-it-All Tinman" consistently misspells the verb "does" as the medical term "dose"; Something else that has helped keep everyone completely bamboozled.
Attachment: http://www.energeticforum.com/attach...53_p_v8_aa-jpg
Just for the record.
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  #44  
Old 07-18-2016, 12:20 AM
bistander bistander is online now
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Mess

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Originally Posted by Allen Burgess View Post
Bistander called his circuit a "mess".
Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post

I don't think this guy knows what he's doing. If he is attempting to freewheel through the LED, he's located it incorrectly.

bi
Maybe you missed this the first time.

bi
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  #45  
Old 07-18-2016, 12:21 AM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is offline
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Spelling error

@bistander,

Tinman's contagious and needs to be quarantined!
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  #46  
Old 07-18-2016, 12:30 AM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is offline
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New circuit.

Here's an idea; Why not marry Igor's circuit to Woopyjumps? Instead of running Igor's diametric spinner BEMF back to the battery through an LED, why not use it to energize a Hi-voltage seconday pulse coil, doubling the power to the spinner? The diode would need to be positioned on the end of the seconday coil connecting to the positive pole of the battery.

Woopyjump's rotor is monopole, and the power coil's not double pole reversing due to Faraday's law of induction like Igor's. So we should get to scrap Woopyjump's capacitor modifying Igor's setup!

Since Igor's only using one coil of a bifilar, it may work simply by sending the BEMF pulse into the second of the two bifilar windings. There's a chance the charge may make it back into the battery! It may take two reverse biased diodes, one on each end of the secondary. Possible OU.
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  #47  
Old 07-18-2016, 02:17 AM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is offline
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Tesla switch.

Woopyjump's circuit appears to run the seconday spike back to ground through the primary winding judging from the schematic, wasting the pulse.

Igor's BEMF pulse returns to the positive pole of the run battery through the LED.

A Hi-voltage seconday utilizing the backspike from Igor's diametric spinner circuit, should double reverse and run back to the positive battery pole the same way. The voltage will be higher on the return from the secondary then the input voltage was to the primary.

A DPDT Tesla switch with a battery bank in series could handle the higher voltage from the secondary backspike return, then switch to parallel for a low voltage Hi-amp primary pulse.

Combining Igor's positive ground with Woopyjump's Hi-voltage seconday of fine wire and many turns. along with the battery bank in series and the Tesla switch should deliver an COP>1 output. We could add some Reed switch circuit shorting output coils for good measure!
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  #48  
Old 07-18-2016, 04:22 PM
ltseung888 ltseung888 is offline
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Ufo propu engine, closed loop

We can use the oscilloscope to examine the waveforms. The Fung wheel was used in the above example.

Normally the BEMF can be seen as a large negative voltage at the leading edge of the pulse. The current will be positive. The result will be negative power. A 5V DC input can cause a -580V spike for 1-2ms.

The same result can be obtained with straight line repulsion.

But if the switch is pulsed at the wrong time, the waveforms may show different results.

I interpret the negative energy as lead-out energy.
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File Type: jpg vert repulsion.jpg (82.3 KB, 17 views)
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  #49  
Old 07-18-2016, 06:44 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is offline
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Newman motor

@ltseung888,

Thanks for the input. Too bad we can't get high quality scope shots like yours from Igor's "Reed Switch Spinner ll".

I included a schematic below of Joeseph Newman's motor, because he uses a two pole N S magnet like Igor. Newman claimed "Overunity" based on collection of BEMF and was consequently denied a patent.

Newman had to argue about the direction of backspike current from his motor long and hard for years which he maintained was a reverse current due to "Lenz and Faraday" laws resulting from the inductive effect of his spinning bi-polar magnet on the coil's pole shift:

Quote from Joe:

"This is a deliberate LIE! It has been taught in basic electromagnetic engineering textbooks for years: "Physically, this SIMPLY MEANS that the energy contained in the magnetic field, when it is built up by current flow in one direction, IS RETURNED by the COLLAPSING magnetic field when the DIRECTION OF CURRENT FLOW reverses." and "It is evident that NO NET OR REAL POWER IS CONSUMED ...."
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  #50  
Old 07-18-2016, 08:31 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Insult

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Burgess View Post
@bistander,

You're another example of someone who acts like they have special knowledge; then when challenged to support their positions, turns to degrading insults to cover their ignorance.
I consider this an insult. All I did was suggest that you increase your education and knowledge on the topic. And yes, that special knowledge I may have came from education and experience.

I was doing some recreational reading today and came across this quote from Eric Dollard posted by T-Rex:
Quote:
On the other end in the E.G. Forum, the worst, is the sodomizer of sheep, his credo, "I don't know anything, so you don't either."
BTW,
The Newman diagram is a joke and so is Joe's quote. Get off your ass and get a few cheap instruments and a few common parts. Run the tests. You'll see the truth. I've done it, years ago. Confirmed it a thousand times since.

bi
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  #51  
Old 07-18-2016, 09:50 PM
ltseung888 ltseung888 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Burgess View Post
@ltseung888,

Thanks for the input. Too bad we can't get high quality scope shots like yours from Igor's "Reed Switch Spinner ll".

I included a schematic below of Joeseph Newman's motor, because he uses a two pole N S magnet like Igor. Newman claimed "Overunity" based on collection of BEMF and was consequently denied a patent.

Newman had to argue about the direction of backspike current from his motor long and hard for years which he maintained was a reverse current due to "Lenz and Faraday" laws resulting from the inductive effect of his spinning bi-polar magnet on the coil's pole shift:

Quote from Joe:

"This is a deliberate LIE! It has been taught in basic electromagnetic engineering textbooks for years: "Physically, this SIMPLY MEANS that the energy contained in the magnetic field, when it is built up by current flow in one direction, IS RETURNED by the COLLAPSIThe oscilloscope NG magnetic field when the DIRECTION OF CURRENT FLOW reverses." and "It is evident that NO NET OR REAL POWER IS CONSUMED ...."
The oscilloscope is a necessary tool in the research and development of electrical energy. Without it, we cannot see the waveforms. Without the waveforms, we cannot find out what is going on with all the rapid changes.

Joseph Newman should use the oscilloscope...

Other researchers should use oscilloscopes too. Many Chinese made versions now cause less than USD150.
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  #52  
Old 07-18-2016, 10:06 PM
ltseung888 ltseung888 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Burgess View Post
@ltseung888,


Quote from Joe:

"This is a deliberate LIE! It has been taught in basic electromagnetic engineering textbooks for years: "Physically, this SIMPLY MEANS that the energy contained in the magnetic field, when it is built up by current flow in one direction, IS RETURNED by the COLLAPSING magnetic field when the DIRECTION OF CURRENT FLOW reverses." and "It is evident that NO NET OR REAL POWER IS CONSUMED ...."
It is evident from the oscilloscope waveforms that a short spike of negative voltage can be produced in the coil and magnet repulsion case. The current (voltage across a one ohm resistor conncted in series) can be seen as positive.

Electrical Power = Voltage x Current at that instant. Thus we get Negative Power. That negative power over the time of the spike gives Negative Energy.

The attached waveform was an expanded section of the spike showing negative voltage and positive current.

The interpretation of this negative energy is the essence of any overunity invention.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Experiment 2 on March 3.JPG (21.7 KB, 10 views)
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  #53  
Old 07-18-2016, 11:05 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is offline
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Negative power.

@Itsung888,

Here's Igor's "Reed Switch Spinner ll" once again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWvI7T7h3tk

In your opinion; Would it be correct to classify the back spike power running through Igor's reverse biased LED into the positive pole of the battery as "Negative Energy" in the above video?
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  #54  
Old 07-18-2016, 11:36 PM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is offline
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bistander insult.

@bistander,

You've done nothing to help explain what's realy going on in Igor's "Reed Switch Spinner ll" video. All you've done is state that Igor has built his circuit incorrectly and that I need an elementary text book. I'm the one supplying a coherent explanation. Both Shiitfa and Milehigher deliver the same kind of demeaning advice. The three of you are nothing but condescending know-it-all "Eggheads" who like to treat people cheap. In addition to insulting Igor, you 're calling Joe Newman a joke! Who are you?
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Last edited by Allen Burgess; 07-19-2016 at 12:17 AM.
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  #55  
Old 07-19-2016, 12:07 AM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is offline
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Lenz's law.

We need to apply Lenz's law to fully understand the reverse current direction in Igor's video.

Lenz’s law:

An induced EMF, always gives rise to a current whose magnetic field opposes the original change in magnetic flux.
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Last edited by Allen Burgess; 07-19-2016 at 12:10 AM.
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  #56  
Old 07-19-2016, 12:19 AM
Dave45 Dave45 is offline
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igor is running the bemf through the diode, its a pos spike ran into the pos post, thats why the circuit is so efficient.
What gets me is the spike should be neg, wished he had used a regular diode before the led, I have some led's that light up reversed bias.
The spinning magnet is affecting the circuit as well, Im sure the circuit isnt behaving as a normal pulsed circuit would.
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  #57  
Old 07-19-2016, 12:39 AM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave45 View Post
igor is running the bemf through the diode, its a pos spike ran into the pos post, thats why the circuit is so efficient.
What gets me is the spike should be neg, wished he had used a regular diode before the led, I have some led's that light up reversed bias.
The spinning magnet is affecting the circuit as well, Im sure the circuit isnt behaving as a normal pulsed circuit would.
@Dave45,

I asked bistander what would happen if we replaced the Reed switch with a blade switch, kept the LED reverse biased, removed the magnet, then manually broke the circuit by opening the blade switch after charging the inductor.

This is simple enough for me to set up and try on my own, but I would imagine the LED would blink. Bistander told me I didn't know the first thing about electronics and needed to return to kindergarten when I questioned him about his view.
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Old 07-19-2016, 01:40 AM
Dave45 Dave45 is offline
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Yea best not to get into pissing contests with forum members, just study the circuits.
Seems most are here trying to prove how smart they are.

I believe that eddy currents cause the bemf created when a magnetic field collapses, but thats just my opinion, I try to study the mechanics involved.
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Old 07-19-2016, 02:00 AM
ltseung888 ltseung888 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Burgess View Post
@Itsung888,

Here's Igor's "Reed Switch Spinner ll" once again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWvI7T7h3tk

In your opinion; Would it be correct to classify the back spike power running through Igor's reverse biased LED into the positive pole of the battery as "Negative Energy" in the above video?

Before I made that judgement, I would do the following:

1. Place a one ohm resistor next to the battery to show the current waveform. Assume that is connected to the connections of Channel 1.

2. Place the Channel 2 connections of the oscilloscope across the diode /LED to show the voltage waveform. Make sure the common of Channel 1 and 2 are properly connected.

3. The scope will be able to show simultaneously the Current and Voltage Waveforms. Display both channel 1 and 2.

4. If some portions of the waveform show positive current and negative voltage or vice versa, I would say that such portions show negative energy.

5. There may be additional information such as spikes that are non-uniform from the waveforms. The shape and magnitude of the spikes will also be useful.
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  #60  
Old 07-21-2016, 01:30 AM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is offline
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Newman back spike.

This video shows a schematic of a charged inductor sending reversed polarity power back to a source battery after the circuit's broken at the negative battery pole:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48_WG8Drm34

Is there anything wrong with kdaveem's simple explanation? He says he "Puts positive in one way and when he disconnects it, negative comes back out".
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Last edited by Allen Burgess; 07-21-2016 at 01:42 AM.
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