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  #61  
Old 06-21-2016, 07:57 AM
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Wow that is great to know, keep me filled in on your
past interactions with John B.


Yes I have and do use conventional chargers and did
use a conventional charger and they went up in 2 hours or
three was it? I was watching a show and charging so then
the battery voltage was 4.2volts.

This is where lithium batteries slow way down and stop.

Yes battery 3 should be somewhat lower or over charging
takes place right away. I see that now.

And I see what you mean on discharging battery 3 and using
battery 1 & 2 to run a charge on them.

Let me think and I want to add these joules again to see
what I ended up with

Thanks Aaron, keep up the great work and I am looking
forward to your new video's in July.
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  #62  
Old 06-21-2016, 08:44 AM
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Okay here is the deal, somedays I can't see the forest for the
trees because I had to collect data every 30 minutes for two
days till I could not see straight. Now that the smoke has cleared
and you guys have chimed in I am getting things corrected such
as the "C" rate, I have fixed the error now so it reads C5 rate.

In fact I was almost delirious those 2 days over the weekend and
sitting around doing data collection in the AC was all I was good for
after spending several days out in the 108 index

Thanks to Bistander also. What you said was so true. I have these
batteries of unknown capacity and saw a G2 number on them and
figured they were standard 2 ah Lithium. But they must be 1ah
and I am only getting 600mah out of 1. Some of these batteries
are lower rated.

Like Bistander said "SOMETHING IS BAD WRONG" that was forsure
as it turns out for capacity 3 of these paralleled batteries only
rang up to 1.6ah altogether so that is very low. Then I charged
them up again (With a regulated supply on an amp meter moving the
dial every 10-20 minute til full) and did the split pos.....thing.

Thanks for the heads up guys, I really goofed. I'll figure it
all up again now that the data is in.

I just knew something was wrong and now I can get my act
straight.

.............



...............


PS the sony batteries are US17670GR and some say 1200mah and now I see these are not my new batteries, Oops
and others say 1400mah
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  #63  
Old 06-21-2016, 04:10 PM
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Lithium cells

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroMikey View Post

hello Bitstander

Yes I agree that the C20 and C15 or the C10 rates do
not seem to apply with these Lithium ion batteries.

This is my first test ever with this kind of battery.

As Aaron mentioned, Peukert doesn't really apply to Lithium ion cells. So for a 2C, 1C, C/5 or C/20 charge or discharge, Ampere-hours will be the same. For very high rates, > 25C, that will change. But at reasonable currents, you can pretty much count on C Ah for a good fully charged cell.

And Lithium ion is nearly 100% for Coulombic efficiency; like 99.98% or thereabouts. So if your methods are good, you can count Ah in and get the same Ah out of a cell assuming you start and end at the same state of charge (SOC). And SOC can be fairly accurately determined from the cell's open circuit voltage.

I assume you were using the 18650 cells, 18mm dia 65mm long. Those are common and cheap. Here is a link to an inexpensive charger/discharger (<$20) which should be able to characterize cells for you. Take some precautions when charging Lithium as severely overcharged cells can overheat and possibly ignite.

I think these Lithium cells would make excellent subjects for your tests. They should eliminate a lot of ambiguity you find dealing with lead-acid.

bi

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  #64  
Old 06-21-2016, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
As Aaron mentioned, Peukert doesn't really apply to Lithium ion cells.
I think these Lithium cells would make excellent subjects for your tests. They should eliminate a lot of ambiguity you find dealing with lead-acid.

[/url]
ambiguity? I.m not sure either? Yes it is true we get
anomalies with lead/acid but I think all batteries do that don't they?

For instants I told you all I grabbed the wrong batteries (and yes these
batteries are the standard cheap batteries you mentioned) so I think
maybe they have sulfates on the plates mates.

I gottem on the Bedini right now in spkie mode way way down low
for the day. I built several of these SG OSC boxes ranging sizes
and I wouldn't trade these for my right hand.

Thanks for the information on Lithium-ion and the effects of speed
charging. Yeah I figure that the way these things zap up right away
with no heat. Yes I do understand your comments on heat and over
charging Lithium ion batteries. This has been all over the web for
years now that they could EXPLODE and so because of those
entries I have always wondered if I could blow one up.

But I am to smart for that. I hate poison. I was even thinking use
a rewound cordless drill motor cage to rewind like Matt does
with his big one to see what effects that and a tiny booster
might do. Who knows maybe I'll get time.
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  #65  
Old 06-21-2016, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BroMikey View Post

For instants I told you all I grabbed the wrong batteries (and yes these
batteries are the standard cheap batteries you mentioned) so I think
maybe they have sulfates on the plates mates.
I don't think you'll find any sulfur in those Lithium cells. And not all 18650 cells are cheap. Tesla uses that size cell in their EVs by the tens of thousands. Top quality. And you pay for it.

I've never seen any evidence that pulsing has any benefit on Lithium batteries whatever.
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  #66  
Old 06-21-2016, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
I don't think you'll find any sulfur in those Lithium cells. And not all 18650 cells are cheap. Tesla uses that size cell in their EVs by the tens of thousands. Top quality. And you pay for it.

I've never seen any evidence that pulsing has any benefit on Lithium batteries whatever.
Humm interesting facts I think I paid $4 each you are
right about the price they are pricey by some people's standard's

Here is a diagram of Matt's setup.

We are charging and discharging the battery at the same time.


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  #67  
Old 06-21-2016, 10:59 PM
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lithium batteries

This kind of small 3.2v lifepo4 battery is safer than the typical lithium batts. https://www.amazon.com/3-2v-LiFePO4-...g=maimounas-20

You can probably find those cheaper, that was just a quick search - but they are generally still super expensive.

One of the primary benefits of using the lithium batts is the ultra low impedance compared to lead acids. We saw this with the big cell phone tower battery banks. Ultra low impedance to a radiant spike allows one to greatly exploit the gains. With one test where Peter charged the big bank with the 10 coiler way back, the battery bank was able to deliver almost 10 times what went into it. That was the single biggest gain I ever saw on a lead acid battery bank.

However, on smaller lead acids, although the impedance is fairly low, it is actually huge compared to the large cell phone tower battery bank and that is why so many people will never see the gain in the battery alone coupled with the fact that most people never have a high enough frequency of charge/discharge cycles.

Paul Babcock has a 24v lifepo4 setup for his SG and he can stairstep them up with real capacity and not just voltage. It is our speculation that it is the low impedance of the lifepo4 batts because of the cell tower bank results. He charges them with spikes and supposedly they don't like spikes but it is amazing how well they respond. Some builders in Energy Science Forum tried the lifepo4's and did not get the results that Babcock did. He is using 24v and I think they're using 12v so not sure how much difference there will be because of that but the resistive loss percentage is less going with higher voltage.
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  #68  
Old 06-22-2016, 02:20 AM
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I doubt it, I just drained out a LITHIUM battery rated at 1300mah
and it only gave me about 700-800 mah Max. You have to run them
and see just like you are doing.

This sets a standard baseline as I am sure everyone understands.

Aaron told me to run battery C all of the way down and when i did
that I found out the actual amount the batteries can offer.

Charging the death "C" position battery is easy now. To give everyone
a perspective I discharged a single battery into a bulb at 750ma
for 1 hour burning up all of the power to ground.

NEXT:

I put battery "C" in it's rightful position to charge in the split
positive diagram and only 500ma down to 400ma running thru
the light bulb load for 1 hr.

Now it is charged again all the way to 4.19v

Now i will see how much power is in this same battery C
by removing it from the split pos..........system and burning
up all of the power once again to ground.

THIS is what I am doing

Gone see how much I get out this way.

I am back to double check all these results. C-U-ALL shortly
when I have another result. I can't wait to see that water
generator breaking all the records. That one you setup with
high energy ignition? Yeah that one, can't wait.

Yeah I am back and actually finishing that first charge that is at
around 4.18 but I think I'll go all the way to 4.2ovolt. When i left
it was below 4.20v. It started up at 500ma and after 1 or 2
minutes slowly dropped. It is running 400ma like before.

4.19volts now.

Yeah right that is what I am doing, I am charged up and gonna
runher down once again

Now it is 10 minutes later and the charge current is 380ma.

Yes this is the way to reuse power, I love it.

There it goes 4.20volts After 1 minute disconnected the battery is
still 4.05volts. I will wait till it stops. 4.03v now. so yeah it is
important to charge up the battery all the way.

It will sit at like 4.01 or 4.00 volts.

One hour later the light ran once again at the 700ma average
staring volts 4.2v and ending was 3.15v. Here is what I have
taken from these 3 batteries so far.

1 hour run time of light directly off battery "C"
1 hour run time of light while charging battery "C"
1 hour run time of light once again straight off "C"

So far three hours of light so remember the the conventional
discharge curve above shows that all three batteries in parallel
gave a 5.5hr run time of light.

So the goal is to see how many times I can charge and discharge
battery "C" running the light and charging in this split pos..........
diagram.

The run voltages of battery A & B while I am on this 4th hour of light
while charging at the same time is A = 3.60v and B =3.66v under a
load. Now I don't know if you understand the significance here but
this is very impressive. I only ran it for a couple of minute to get the
readings and then stopped. We will see next time how many hours
we have left.

Judging from my past measurements I will have to say that we will
get a lot of extra light doing it this way.
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  #69  
Old 06-22-2016, 03:27 AM
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stairstep

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroMikey View Post


I guess I don't know what you mean that Paul can stairstep
batteries?
If one is charged and one is discharged, he can charge the one on the output faster that the input one goes down. Swap them and repeat and keep going and eventually, they're both back up to the top.
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  #70  
Old 06-22-2016, 04:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
If one is charged and one is discharged, he can charge the one on the output faster that the input one goes down. Swap them and repeat and keep going and eventually, they're both back up to the top.

Well first let me say that I am grateful for this information
that Paul and others you mentioned have spent time on these
concepts. This encourages many of us who can not find any materials
whatsoever anywhere around the web such as YOUTUBE
experimenters might do.

The idea the Lithium batteries are very low impedance and this
can aid in the recovery process is something we all need to
remember. I remember John B saying that his huge batteries
were conditioned til they were 1 ohm.

So recovery is inhibited by internal resistance of batteries, this
makes me flashback to John K. statement that he likes a cap
dump to counteract this internal resistance. The high energy surges
both clean plate area and efficiently deliver energy on target.

So resistance of batteries is very important

I understand what you mean by stair stepping.

............
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Old 06-24-2016, 07:47 AM
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Hi Sky

This is what I am doing.

I am using up the power in C which is the charge battery
as you know conventionally discharging it nothing out of the
ordinary then I am charging "C" (The single charge battery)
with the split positive connection diagram while running a load
and repeating the process of emptying batteries A & B these are
the series connected batteries.

Here is what I said for this test yesterday then I will add today.


1st hour run time of light directly off battery "C"
2nd hour run time of light while charging battery "C"
3rd hour run time of light once again straight off "C"



Okay to add today so far making it another 2 hours of runtime
and charging this time. This being the 4th and 5th hour added
to the 3 hours of run time of the light.

4th and 5th hours charging "C" and running the light at 315ma ending
charge voltage was 4.10volts.

Batteries A & B voltages are 3.47v and 3.51v respectively under load.




I am now discharging "C" which is disconnected from the circuit
once again and this will make it the 6th hour of light.


I am using the split positive connection but the only time I
use it is when I have a dead battery to charge.

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Old 06-24-2016, 08:16 AM
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Referring back to this diagram where only standard discharging
takes place uses a resistor to slow current draw down.

All charging and discharging runs are done without that resistor.

In these tests "C" is being discharged without that resistor and
this is why I show a 700ma drain during this time of conventional
discharging. 6 hours have past and if you compare figures you can
see that under these conditions of using the energy we get more
light (More Mili-Amps/ time) longer due to battery "C" always being
completely dead before using energy from A & B in the split positive
system.

Previous runs kept battery "C" in an over charging condition at the
beginning which wasted power.


The new result is in for the 6th hour.


6th hour conventional discharge "C" battery 650ma ending 3.15v





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  #73  
Old 06-24-2016, 10:08 AM
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Now it is time to calculate joules.

V x A x 3600sec. or average voltage x Average ma.

Under load figures after 1 minute connection time

1st hr = conventional discharge figures
3.85v + 3.2v / 2 = 3.525v
at 700ma average = 3.525v x .700ma x 3600sec = 8883 J

2nd hr = Split positive 3.20v x .425 x 3600sec = 5240 J

3rd hr = conventional discharge figures
same as 1st hr = 8883 J

4th & 5th hr = 3.05V x .315ma x 7200sec = 6917 J

6th hr = conventional discharge figures
3.75V X 3.15v /2 = 3.45v
at 650 ma average = 3.45V x .650ma x 3600sec = 8073 J

7th & 8th hr = split positive 2.90V x .150ma x 7200sec = 3132 J

I still have whats left in this battery that charged while the light
ran ending charge voltage only reached 3.90v with batteries
A & B now fully discharged at 3.23v each.

9th hr = conventional discharge figures
3.70V + 3.22V /2 = 3.46V
at 575ma = 3.46V x .575ma x 1200sec = 2387 J

This gives a total of 43,515 J

Conventional discharging of the same 3 batteries in parallel
only offered 22,900 Joules approx.

See previous charts above for verification.

I guess Mikey's Fluke meter must be to blame.



...........
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Old 06-24-2016, 05:37 PM
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Hi mike, thanks for sharing your results.
So it looks like about twice the original for the basic setup and you aren't even splitting the positive again, when you discharge C all by itself.
If you split the positive from C into another battery or back to A or B, maybe a boost circuit of some kind (joule thief), you'd push the output numbers up even higher.
peace love light
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Old 06-24-2016, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyWatcher View Post
Hi mike, thanks for sharing your results.
So it looks like about twice the original for the basic setup and you aren't even splitting the positive again, when you discharge C all by itself.
If you split the positive from C into another battery or back to A or B, maybe a boost circuit of some kind (joule thief), you'd push the output numbers up even higher.
peace love light
Yeah I think so. The 22,990 conventional is far to low when
you are hooked on recycled joules.

We need to understand that in both split positive tests why
one is collecting more than the other. I said once and now I'll
say it again, the charging battery "C" is the critical variable.

In test one of the split positive runs the charging battery "C"
has a higher impedance being fully charged than a dead battery.

In test two the configuration was changed slightly to make sure
any time a split positive run was made battery "C" was dead.
This lower impedance is a more receptive state to reorganize
energy so with lower resistance energy transfer is more efficient.

22,900 J plus or minus 10 percent error = 20,000 J

29,000 J split positive run plus or minus = 26,000 J

43,000 J split positive run plus or minus = 36,000 J

I'll have to rerun tests to be sure I didn't do something wrong.

On the boost idea I think somebody needs to say that the
SG OSC was born for just this reason and you don't hear
anyone talking about using it.

Doesn't anyone think John B ever thought of using these circuts
to create a potential difference with his SG OSC, and then
call it a boost converter? Or call it a joule thief?

Come on guys. I am ranting again.

I know how this all sounds like it is too simple stupid.


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  #76  
Old 06-25-2016, 01:34 AM
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Not necessarily the bedini stuff, but this joule thief is quite efficient in recycling energy back and forth....
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_1173.JPG (55.4 KB, 40 views)
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  #77  
Old 06-25-2016, 02:55 AM
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Quote:
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Not necessarily the bedini stuff, but this joule thief is quite efficient in recycling energy back and forth....
Thanks Dragon

I'll consider it because you are leading
.
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Old 06-25-2016, 04:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
BroMikey,

You're doing some great work here and I hope you keep posting your results.

The Peukert Effect doesn't apply that much to lithium batteries like they do with lead acids.

That eliminates the 'C" rate, just one less excuse.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peukert's_law
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Old 06-25-2016, 06:41 AM
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charging peak voltage then drop in voltage

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroMikey View Post

That eliminates the 'C" rate, just one less excuse.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peukert's_law
It certainly makes it easier if you're using lithium batts. Are you satisfied with the results you posted that you got about 1/2 of the rating? That's not good news for the lithium batts your using but were they not fully charged?

I know for the 3.2v lifepo4 batts, 4 is 12.8 volts and ideally, they get pushed to 14.8 just like gels and AMG's, which is about 1/2 a volt under what flooded cell lead acids need.

Since Bedini's charging technology is not compatible with the normal lithium batts, I don't know - maybe ideally they need to be pushed a little higher than you quoted.

I don't know if the normal lithium batts do this, but lead acid and nicads have the charging curve where it goes up, peaks and then drops and the charge should finish after it drops showing the impedance dropped and the battery is fully charged. Maybe you can see if the charging curve is the same or similar with the non-lifepo4 lithiums. If you have some pc based volt graphing program, you can see it go up and come to a peak and then drop - if it is like so many other batts, that is your signature to end the charge AFTER the voltage drops after it peaks up near where you said it needs to go. This is not a guess of what will happen, but just thinking out loud if it would be the same. If so, then you know when it's reached full capacity for it's own particular condition.
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Old 06-25-2016, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
It certainly makes it easier if you're using lithium batts. Are you satisfied with the results you posted that you got about 1/2 of the rating? That's not good news for the lithium batts your using but were they not fully charged?

I know for the 3.2v lifepo4 batts, 4 is 12.8 volts and ideally, they get pushed to 14.8 ...........................................
Hi Aaron

I re-did the previous sloppy calculation and found an error of
1000 Joules it should have been posted as 23,900 Joules

Now after a few runs and some harder discharges the joule
count is rising. Keep in mind I am only dealling with the
conventional discharge right now to see what's up with
these batteries. Some say 1200mah for these batteries
when they are brand new and we all know batteries give
an actual output that is lower.

The new measurements are for a faster discharge and
very closely watched on the meters. I will be happy with
70 percent of 1200mah. I didn't go all the way to 3.20v
but judging from my curve I wasn't going to make it much
longer than a minute or two so i stopped at the half hour
mark.

This new chart shows a 2.5hr run offering 25,700 Joules

I think they look good when you think about it. Maybe it is
the way I am calculating. Under load the new battery would give
the same average voltage of 3.5v and the 1200 x .7 (705) = 840ma
for 1 hour split that in half over a 2 hr and so on.

I got an average of 805ma over a 2.5hr run that makes these
batteries over 1600mah batteries plus. You picken on my
batteries.

I'll have to confess now that I have been charging this with
genmode so my batteries are getting bigger? What do you think?

I thought if a battery was rated at 1200mah that meant that
over a 2.5hr time frame I should only get an average of 500ma
per hr? Is that right?

Anyway give it some thought here is my chart.
........................


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Old 06-25-2016, 10:34 AM
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The way I am figuring may be the problem


I see what I did wrong hang on a minute.

805 ma average over a 2.5hr run = 2000mah for 1 hr
then split that between 3 batteries in parallel = 700ma
per battery. pretty bad I guess if they were 1200mah?

I have another set thank goodness maybe I'll see what a set
of 3 of these batteries give off. These are new ones. I found
the new set.

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Old 06-25-2016, 10:46 AM
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Here is what the new set looks like and some call it
a 18,600 2 ah and some call it a 5000mah battery
so I don't know I really don't.

The ones I am running right now are green 1200mah
and these are blue 2200mah i guess. Who knows right?


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Old 06-25-2016, 11:04 AM
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Okay I dumped those green batteries and now that my
new blue ones are getting charged up I can see how
much more powerful they are by the way the meter won't
move up very quickly while charging. These batteries seem
much better so I will run these instead.

I just bought these batteries off of ebay.

The green ones are small and to much trouble because
I'll be wondering if the capacity will change right in the
middle of a calculation.

But the calculations I have shown are consistence and
show that these batteries offering a 25,000 joule count
can be extended using the split positive diagram to 40,000
joules. Let's see if the new batteries say the same thing.


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Old 06-25-2016, 08:04 PM
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discharge

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroMikey View Post
I thought if a battery was rated at 1200mah that meant that
over a 2.5hr time frame I should only get an average of 500ma
per hr? Is that right?
If you want 1.2 ah over 2.5 hours, then discharge is 480ma.

If you want to stick with a 500ma discharge, then that is 2.4 hours or 2 hour 24 minutes.

6 minutes different isn't huge, but for batteries this small, that represents around 5% of the total capacity at the 2.5 hour rate or about 4% of the 2.4 hour rate.
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  #85  
Old 06-25-2016, 08:06 PM
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1.2ah

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroMikey View Post
Here is what the new set looks like and some call it
a 18,600 2 ah and some call it a 5000mah battery
so I don't know I really don't.

The ones I am running right now are green 1200mah
and these are blue 2200mah i guess. Who knows right?


I don't know where people are getting 5000mah - says right there on the battery 2200mah and that is what I would go with.
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Old 06-25-2016, 08:50 PM
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Hi Aaron

It's time to see, all day I have charged these batteries that are
new on a very low spike Brand new 2200mah no excuses
now these batteries will kick butt.

batteries rest at 13 v running under load at 1.6 amps 4.05v
starting 3.45oc this is a single battery under test not 3.

Wowzzee these ones are mighty

Oh yeah I need to tell everybody I made another mistake by
using a 1 amp meter because the nettle was pinned over now
my meter is a large 5amp scale, more leg room, I'll check the
old one again for a minute. maybe I cut off the readings for the
first 30 minute before. I think so because now I am at 3.79v
and the amp draw is still 1.25amps, yeah I did I cut off the
the start up readings on other tests.

BRB with more data comparison, I will get it right.

Ps back now

3.45oc 4.05v at 1.6amps

4.00oc 3.88v at 1.4amps

4.15oc 3.78v at 1.25amps

4.45oc 3.58v at 1amp

1st hour Joule report = 17,784 J

-----------------------------

4.45oc 3.58v at 1amp

5:15oc 3.48v at 800ma

5:45oc 3.36v at 650ma

2nd hour joule report = 10,206 J

----------------------------------

5:45oc 3.36v at 650ma

5:55oc 3.25v at 500ma

3rd hour Joule report lasted 10 minutes = 1140 J

-----------------------------------

Total joule count for single battery is greater than all three
of the old batteries coming to ............

Total Joule count = 28,530 J

Assuming that each battery can produce the result the
total pack energy/joules for this brand new pack is............

New pack Joule count = 85,590 J plus or minus 5% error

Outstandinghumm.......
...........................................


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Last edited by BroMikey; 06-25-2016 at 11:12 PM.
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Old 06-26-2016, 12:04 AM
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My new graph is here thanks Mike I am patting myself
on the back. Got to keep the faith

This way I can always look back on the numbers to be sure.

These batteries pack quite a wallup

I guess you were oh so right Aaron those old batteries are a joke

I charged the old ones back up and they only 1050ma max.


................---------------------


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Last edited by BroMikey; 06-26-2016 at 12:29 AM.
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Old 06-26-2016, 06:52 AM
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The New Batteries and the tally coming in now BRB

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Old 06-26-2016, 06:58 AM
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constant voltage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroMikey View Post
My new graph is here thanks Mike I am patting myself
on the back. Got to keep the faith

This way I can always look back on the numbers to be sure.

These batteries pack quite a wallup

I guess you were oh so right Aaron those old batteries are a joke

I charged the old ones back up and they only 1050ma max.


................---------------------


That's interesting - although they beat your old batteries, your graph shows that they are not constant voltage batteries.

Here is a graph of lifepo4 vs lead acid.




Do you know of the regular lithiums to be constant voltage batts?
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Old 06-26-2016, 08:04 AM
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BroMikey BroMikey is online now
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The thing I understand about it is this. Laptops for instance
use these batteries and all packs have an inverter built into
it for charging and somewhere it also has another inverter/converter
that maintains the correct voltage from the ever diminishing
voltage coming from the batteries.

All devices use switchmode to keep a steady output
off the batteries. Just like an AC inverter does with the
12v batteries.

I got more data coming now

so far it looks good 28,000
+24,000
+13000
Something close and the run batteries are still charged

You are right Aaron about the curve BRB and I'll say something



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