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  #691  
Old 11-11-2018, 11:33 PM
Iamnuts Iamnuts is offline
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My experience.

With good quality wheelchair motors and a carefully matched load
I reckon about the best I can get is 70%.
Some people have the idea that designers are idiots, in bistander's
generator info they're claiming 98%, I think that's a fantastic
achievement.
I'd like to see someone beat 98%,that's the challenge.
John.
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  #692  
Old 11-12-2018, 12:08 AM
bistander bistander is online now
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He can only distract and confuse

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
Ismnuts,
When they talk about 98%, they are talking about the motor’s ability to convert the electrical input into mechanical energy. Whoop tee do! If a motor is only 80% efficient but you can recover 60% of the power used to run it in the first place, what is the “efficiency” of the motor? It is STULL only 80%, but there is a gain in the “system.” That is what we are talking about here. You can’t look at just one part. You have to look at the system as a whole.
Like this?

....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
Just want to point out that my generator puts out between 1800-2000 watts while running on a STOCK electric motor that requires 240 watts input. ...
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  #693  
Old 11-12-2018, 12:16 AM
bistander bistander is online now
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????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
Bro Mikey

Apparently bi has permanent magnet motors that have no wires on the stators. No coils at all. Since he says if you have coils, or wires on the stator you have no cogging. And cogging is the magnets on the rotor reacting to the iron in the stator, which, according to him, can’t have wire on them or because that would make them coils and when you have coils it is something different and not cogging. I guess
What are you talking about?

You can't even learn what generator cogging is. Cogging would and does occur without the wires because it only depends on the core and magnets. Coils and wires are irrelevant to cogging. What's so difficult to understand about that?
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  #694  
Old 11-12-2018, 03:19 AM
bistander bistander is online now
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Coils & cores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
What I am talking about is that in the kinds of motors YOU are talking about, the iron you mention is the iron of the stator that interacts with the rotating magnets on the rotor. Those stators have coils wound around them. Coils. Do you get that? coils.

Now in the generator WE are talking about (or use it as a motor) the stator metal is the iron core of the coils. Without it, there is no generating or motoring action. So the cores of these coils are JUST as important as the iron of the stators YOU are talking about. Remove the "coils" from our machines and you remove the iron.

So when you say the coils have NOTHING to do with it, you are about as far from correct as you can get. The iron in the core of those coils is EVERYTHING. and it is what causes the cogging. Got it? So you cannot evenDISCUSS the generator without the coils. Neither could you discuss it if it were being used as a motor.
The coil is the copper wire. The core is the iron in the center of the coil. Those are two separate pieces or components of the generator. The coil core in your device is the same as a tooth on the stator of a more typical commercial armature (which happens to be the stator in a PM brushless generator). If you took your coils off of the cores, leaving the iron cores on your stator and turned the rotor with the magnets attached, you will getting cogging.

Put the coils back on the cores and you still have cogging. The cogging doesn't change due to the copper coils.

Do you ever read up on this? There is a lot of literature out there. The parts and terminology of generators are well established. Many of the home wind turbine builders use homemade generators similar to what you build.
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Last edited by bistander; 11-12-2018 at 03:26 AM.
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  #695  
Old 11-12-2018, 04:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
Bro Mikey

Apparently bi has permanent magnet motors that have no wires on
the stators. No coils at all. ......... I guess

:rofl :
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  #696  
Old 11-12-2018, 05:47 AM
bistander bistander is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
THIS was my definition of cogging, which YOU have stated is incorrect, yet you just described it exactly the same way. You say eliminating cogging is unimportant because it goes away at high speed. I say THE AMP DRAW of the motor IS AFFECTED as long as the iron is present, there is a MAGNETIC DRAG on the motor (which is cogging sped up) therefore ELIMINATING cogging is beneficial. You don't think it is necessary because at high speeds there is no PHYSICAL affect that is VISIBLE, but there is still an amp draw from rotating the magnet past the iron core. MEASURE IT WITH AND WITHOUT an iron core present, or in the case of MY generator, with and without 12 iron cores present, and then tell me there is NO benefit to eliminating that increased amp draw. NOWHERE in any of your dictionary definitions of cogging do they discuss the increased AMP DRAW that would NOT BE THERE if the metal was not there, and which I am able to eliminate through magnetic neutralization. You continue to put down something you don't know a single thing about and insist that WE need to do our homework.
You're wrong. In most of the "dictionary definitions" you'll find it stated that cogging torque does not show in the net torque of the machine, or in other words, cogging has no affect on the net current. It's just a ripple.

Magnetic drag is not cogging. Show me a reputable source which says it is.

And I do know a great deal about electric machines, motors and generators. But you refuse to learn. But all this cogging and clogging is a waste of time. Show me the 1800 watt output with 300 watt input generator.
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  #697  
Old 11-12-2018, 06:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
You're wrong. Show me the 1800
watt output with 300 watt input generator.
No, No motor mouth, show me anything. You keep repeating, table
turning riddles. Show something and stop boasting about nothing.

Everybody has motor experience. Show us.

Turion Man is da man and he don't just flap his jaw, he shows his stuff
around. He is one of the few men who actual had an idea and has shown
his working unit. Today it works, not someday.

Where is yours? Did you go over the instructional data? No? Still repeating?
Repeating old slogans? Hummm..?
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  #698  
Old 11-12-2018, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post

You can't back up your statement so you change the subject to me,
or to coils, neither of which are relevant to cogging.
What is relevant is that you don't understand how motors operate
today and for the past 100 plus years. That is what you have shown
the group.

The important data of the repealing forces is very important and you
have ignored the standard definitions while quoting the dictionary
riddles. You and the classical thinker are wrong or confused.

The reason you can't think for yourself is that you went to govt run
schools and tho some did also go to those were able to read between
the lines. Not you.

The govt controlled schools of the past 100 years and the same control
freaks who silence Tesla. Your responses have uncovered your ability
to grasp the experiment and you can't see it. I got what I wanted from
you.

But you don't seem to know that. Turion is a teacher and saw this so
is having pity for you and those who think just like you. Go back and
read and review the information offered to you.

Repeating will get you nowhere on this thread. All it does is gets you
a sort of shame that brings about pity. However someone out there
will learn from this.

..................

.........................
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  #699  
Old 11-12-2018, 11:42 AM
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Magnetic drag is not cogging. Show me a reputable source which says it is.

Could someone please explain the difference ?
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  #700  
Old 11-12-2018, 01:59 PM
Iamnuts Iamnuts is offline
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Oh what a bind!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_current_brake
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  #701  
Old 11-12-2018, 02:02 PM
Iamnuts Iamnuts is offline
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Coil free.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogging_torque
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  #702  
Old 11-12-2018, 02:10 PM
Iamnuts Iamnuts is offline
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There ya go.

http://www.koshindenki.com/img/file/...vr_R3a_Std.pdf
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  #703  
Old 11-12-2018, 02:15 PM
Iamnuts Iamnuts is offline
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Problems in the real world.

As Coreless Dc Motors usually can reach very high rpms and has a compact structure, these motors can heat quickly. Especially when running at full load for a short time. So it is usually advised to use a cooling system with these motors. Overheating can be an important problem specially for Coreless Micro Dc Motors. So a disadvantage of a coreless motor is, it cannot handle overloads when compared to a cored motor. The bonding adhesive that holds the windings can lose its bonding character and the motor will be broken.

What use is a broken motor?
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  #704  
Old 11-12-2018, 03:00 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Cogging vs drag

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawt2 View Post
Magnetic drag is not cogging. Show me a reputable source which says it is.

Could someone please explain the difference ?
Hi Sawt2,

Cogging is strictly due to magnets and iron (core). Magnetic drag can be caused by both magnets/iron and magnets/iron/electromagnets.

Cogging is due to the tendency of the rotor magnet to align with the core projection (as the iron in the center of the coil). That tendency acts in the direction of rotation on one side of TDC and against rotation direction on the opposite side of TDC. So the equal magnitude but opposite tendencies (or torque) cancel when looking at average torque (or current) input or output. However cogging will be present and represent torque ripple which is most noticeable at low RPM.

Magnetic drag, on the other hand, always opposes rotation and becomes greater as RPM increases. It is due to core loss, ie. Eddy currents and hysteresis. For motors and generators, magnetic drag is a loss mechanism. Magnetic drag is purposely used in applications like commercial magnetic brakes and clutches. Cogging is not.

There is much literature on the subjects. I encourage you, or anyone to look at it.

https://www.designworldonline.com/th...agnetic-brake/

Regards,

bi
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Last edited by bistander; 11-12-2018 at 03:06 PM.
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  #705  
Old 11-12-2018, 03:51 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Claims

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroMikey View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
You're wrong. Show me the 1800 watt output with 300 watt input generator.
No, No motor mouth, show me anything. You keep repeating, table
turning riddles. Show something and stop boasting about nothing.

Everybody has motor experience. Show us.

Turion Man is da man and he don't just flap his jaw, he shows his stuff
around. He is one of the few men who actual had an idea and has shown
his working unit. Today it works, not someday.

Where is yours? Did you go over the instructional data? No? Still repeating?
Repeating old slogans? Hummm..?
He made the claim. He has never shown a working unit of the 1800 watt output/300 watt input machine.

I made no claim. What am I supposed to show? Something that doesn't work?

You claimed that the magnet repelled the steel. Show us that. That's what started this episode.
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  #706  
Old 11-12-2018, 04:08 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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So what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
When the iron becomes an electromagnet of the same polarity the magnet is repelled. Simple. I have said this three times now.
Then it has nothing to do with cogging. How many times have I said that? And that is what he claimed.... Repulsion due to cogging. Simple.
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  #707  
Old 11-12-2018, 05:49 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Twist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
This is what he actually said, and you immediately twisted his words bringing up steel poles on your OWN. Go look at the posts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BroMikey View Post
Cogging ...
As 1 pole draws near to a pole they resist each other ...
Two poles. One on the rotor (a magnet) and one in the stator (steel core). "Draws near to" = getting closer. "Resist each other" = repel or repulsion. What did I twist?
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Last edited by bistander; 11-12-2018 at 05:53 PM.
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  #708  
Old 11-12-2018, 07:14 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Steel is magnetic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
In his very FIRST line he says “two magnetic poles”. He is talking about electromagnetic poles one created by an electrical supply and the other induced by the approaching magnet in a coil.
Very first Google hit:

Quote:
Is steel magnetic?
A: In general, steels are magnetic.
Ref. https://www.reference.com/science/st...eb085b5b85cf38
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  #709  
Old 11-12-2018, 07:58 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
Aluminum foil

That has as much to do with what we are talking about as what you linked to. Magnetic pokes is what he said. Obviously they contain metal as well as a coil or you could not possibly build a motor or generator out of them. He said magnetic poles which is different than steel poles. Am I correct or incorrect?
You are incorrect. A magnetic pole in a motor or generator does not have to have a coil around it. Look up consequent pole. And besides his whole post was about cogging which is independent of coils.

You're guessing about what you think he meant. I am talking about what he wrote and posted and the common, scientific and technical definitions of the words and terms he used.
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  #710  
Old 11-13-2018, 06:47 AM
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My Dad's funeral was Friday he was 83 and Mom's was last month
she was 77 yrs
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  #711  
Old 11-13-2018, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BroMikey View Post
My Dad's funeral was Friday he was 83 and Mom's was last month
she was 77 yrs
Sorry for your loss
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  #712  
Old 11-14-2018, 02:10 AM
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It is time for the booster circuit even with batteries still charged the
inverter alarm is going off.




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  #713  
Old 11-15-2018, 01:58 AM
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Shop class today

Jordan cut his Madmack parts out today to explore cogging.
We have the bearings, shaft, collars and now platform pieces.
We have the square magnets and the material to build adjuster.

After cancellation is performed we will sub out 1 pole with and iron
core with coil. If everything goes right we might be able to run this big
wheel with a tiny rubber band type belt using a miniature motor to
see how much the coil will put out.


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  #714  
Old 11-15-2018, 02:04 AM
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Quote:
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Sorry for your loss

Thank you, both had very sad endings.
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  #715  
Old 11-15-2018, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
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Sorry to hear about your folks. My dad passed a couple years ago and I moved my mom to CA to a house down the street from me.
Thank you Turion Man.
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  #716  
Old 11-30-2018, 05:02 AM
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  #717  
Old 12-02-2018, 04:56 AM
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PART 2


3 battery discharge motor to a MadMack style generator rotor for my
son. Slow speeds, very safe and energy conservative. Don't quote me
but I think I saw the drive motor amps at about 50ma-75ma on 12vdc
coming from the 3 battery arrangement.

Mounting and placing the motor plus stainless shaft in the mail. Drilling
the hub and then placement of square magnets.




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  #718  
Old 12-02-2018, 05:25 PM
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Sorry for your loss didn't see this until today.

wantomake
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  #719  
Old 12-03-2018, 02:29 AM
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Sorry for your loss didn't see this until today.

wantomake
Thank you James, God bless you and your efforts here and abroad.
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  #720  
Old 12-16-2018, 11:34 AM
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Work Progress

Put in many hours of work this week building. My ss shaft is here
and the one bearing for the top mount will be in soon. The mail
is stopped up bad, I ordered a bearing 3 weeks ago. The motor
to drive the wheel is mounted to my satisfaction and the upper
cross member is going well.

I can't believe all the hours I put in and it looks the same almost.
This really takes alot of time and I enjoy it.

one thing I need to do is take out a small segment to explain the
way I build. So many guys are not as well equipped plus have little
experience rigging.

Cutting tools for metal plate and plastic are important, then a welder
helps a bunch so I'll be showing my designs soon for the guys who
are wondering how to start something to make tests with.

Since magnets are very powerful at close range to metal cores it becomes
imperative that a rigid structure be formed, not as easy as it may seem.


.................................................. .....
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