Energetic Forum  
Facebook Twitter Google+ Pinterest LinkedIn Delicious Digg Reddit WordPress StumbleUpon Tumblr Translate Addthis Aaron Murakami YouTube PRE-REGISTER - 19 SEATS LEFT!!!*** 2017 ENERGY CONFERENCE ***


* NEW * BEDINI RPX BOOK & DVD SET: BEDINI RPX


Go Back   Energetic Forum > >
   

Renewable Energy Discussion on various alternative energy, renewable energy, & free energy technologies. Also any discussion about the environment, global warming, and other related topics are welcome here.

Bedini RPX Sideband Generator
Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #31  
Old 03-29-2016, 03:30 PM
marseye marseye is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbrownn
I did not not wire them like that, maybe you could try it.
I don't yet have any induction motor at hand, and though I'm currently quite broke and unemployed, I'll keep on trying to find one. But most DC motors nowadays have generally magnets.... An AC motor doesn't have brushes : I would have to make some, externally, which would need some DIY that I'm not yet equipped to conduct (could reveal expensive for my purse). For bugdet reasons, I'd prefer to work on drill type sized motor (and because of the needed budget for the copper too).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbrownn
A 4 pole universal type motor or generator would be a good donor device to get the parts from.
Yep, I have a 12V 600w (I believe) DC one somewhere (PARVALUX PM-90L, or something like that), but they are 4 magnets. More than that : the brushes are fitted directly into the front lid's thickness... Hard, if not impossible to try to move them with my equipment. So, not much to await from it. I already have thought of contacting the british manufacture of the motor (PARVALUX) to see if they would be able to make a study motor configuration for me. But I'm affraid they're gonna ask me about magnetization strength, inductance, resistance and so on, and this is all unknown 'til there... And to ask them for movable brushes could reveal costly too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbrownn
Standard armatures are a continuous loop and we know there was something unusual about the Lockridge armature. I used a simple armature with separate coils and no interconnectivity. As well as being relatively easy to wind, these armatures have no compromises like standard Lap and Wave wound armatures. They produce strong fields and do not heat up as fast as looped armatures. They arc and build up high voltages that can be harvested. Standard armatures are very difficult to harvest power from as the currents find it easier to pass around the armature than to go through brushes to a separate circuit.
I agree with everything here. Except that I believe any arcing can't be harvested, but expenses all that could have been.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mbrownn
I will help if I can as it is always good to share knowledge so that it does not become lost or hidden in patents.
You're welcome wherever you can : sharing the knowledge (and the tests) could give away good keys for us all.


About my latest tests (as just previously described) : nothing new under the sun. I won't give up until I can make more tests with a more correct configuration : I have doubts about my results to eliminate before I resign about them. Here, a 4 adjustable poles and brushes at least would help. Electromagnetic field coils would be the must !

I really need to find a brushed induction motor, or a brushed generator now. Where the hell can I have one, and for free ????? (I'm just wondering out loud). Even used starter motors are not cheap, and most have only 2 brushes (I've already searched about BOSCH, and VolksWagen ones)...
__________________
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
M.E. Who else ?...

Last edited by marseye; 03-29-2016 at 06:42 PM.
Reply With Quote

Download SOLAR SECRETS by Peter Lindemann
Free - Get it now: Solar Secrets

  #32  
Old 03-29-2016, 08:48 PM
MadMack MadMack is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 73
Phase shift?

You guys are much more knowledgeable about this than I am, but in the Lockridge device, I have a hunch that the hand made capacitor may be used for a 90 degree current phase shift and/or separation of AC from DC.

Has anyone considered this?

Mack
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 03-30-2016, 01:04 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,624
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMack View Post
You guys are much more knowledgeable about this than I am, but in the Lockridge device, I have a hunch that the hand made capacitor may be used for a 90 degree current phase shift and/or separation of AC from DC.

Has anyone considered this?

Mack
Could you explain the 90 degree phase shift for me? I do know that a capacitor can be used to block DC while allowing AC to pass.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 03-30-2016, 11:20 AM
marseye marseye is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 117
Motors studies

Just as a reminder for me (and everyone interested), here are explanations and formulas :
- All about motors (French)
- Types of DC Motor Separately Excited or Shunt Series Compound DC Motor

And this, about series and shunt motors models:




For generators, see the alternators chapter here.Quite a bunch of principles to learn when browsing through links ! (search for the self excited types).
__________________
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
M.E. Who else ?...

Last edited by marseye; 03-30-2016 at 11:36 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 03-30-2016, 12:54 PM
MadMack MadMack is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbrownn View Post
Could you explain the 90 degree phase shift for me? I do know that a capacitor can be used to block DC while allowing AC to pass.
This is a pretty good explanation.

Capacitors and Alternating Current

Mack
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 03-31-2016, 04:17 PM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,624
Quote:
Originally Posted by marseye View Post
Just as a reminder for me (and everyone interested), here are explanations and formulas :
- All about motors (French)
- Types of DC Motor Separately Excited or Shunt Series Compound DC Motor

And this, about series and shunt motors models:




For generators, see the alternators chapter here.Quite a bunch of principles to learn when browsing through links ! (search for the self excited types).
Thanks for the instructional videos, they are always useful, especially when you get stuck as they can remind you of something you have overlooked.

@MadMack Thanks for the simple yet great explanation. I had completely forgotten about this so overlooked its usefulness.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 04-06-2016, 10:26 PM
pault pault is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 161
Thoughts about Siemens device

[Back to thinking about this stuff after a long layoff.]

Seeing this thread has got me thinking about the LD again - thanks.

Here are some random thoughts, in case they help anyone's thought process:

Quote:
"The Berlin physicists, among them Magnus, Dove, Riess, Du Bois-Reymond, were extremely surprised when I laid before them in December 1866 such an exploding inductor, and showed that a small electromagnetic machine without battery and permanent magnets, which could be turned in one direction without effort and with any velocity, offered an almost insuperable resistance when turned in the opposite direction, and at the same time produced an electric current of such strength that its wire coils became quickly heated. Professor Magnus immediately offered to lay a description of my invention before the Berlin Academy of Sciences, but, on account of the Christmas holidays, this could only be done in the following year, on January 17, 1867."
- The Siemens device is extremely simple, yet it claims to posess self-induction (self-excitation).

- For a while, I was fooled into thinking that the device self-ran. After re-reading the above paragraph, I now think that it says that the wires became hot when you turned the armature in the "wrong" direction, and, that it could be spun freely when turned in the "right" direction (by a prime mover).

- Is more detail available? E.g. the patent or the society paper (preferably in English).

- The Siemens machine is essentially described in this military video, as long as I am correct in thinking that it is a DC generator. A DC generator has a split commutator and produces rectified waves. An AC generator has separate slip-rings and produces sine-waves.



Points of interest:
8:24 ripples (rectified waves)
14:00 self-exciting, series and shunt configurations
24:00 CEMF

(For completeness, here is the AC lecture: )


- Translations:

"Kommutator mit Bursten" = commutator with brushes.

"Doppel-T-Anker mit Wicklung" = double-T armature with windings

"Pohlschuh" = pole shoe

"Erregerwicklung" = field windings

- The armature is a long cylinder, with length-wise slots which house a single coil. Each end of the coil is connected to a commutator (i.e. two commutators, two brushes).

- The pole shoes are rectangular chunks of iron(?) with semi-circular slots cut in them to house the armature. One pole shoe on top and one on the bottom.

- Two "flat" rectangular coils (wound around iron(?) flat, rectangular plates), one on top and one on bottom, connected to the corresponding pole shoes. The two coils are in the same plane and might have some sort of mutual induction (transformer effect), but the coils are fairly far apart...

- We aren't shown how the coils are connected together (series, parallel?).

- I assume that the top pole is N and the bottom is S and that they don't flip, although they might vary in intensity.

- We aren't shown how the brushes/commutators are oriented. I can think of two extreme orientations with respect to the armature winding - 0 degrees (connection made when the armature coil is horizontal) and 90 degrees (connection made when the armature coild is vertical).

- The Siemens page claims that the armature is hand-cranked at first and that the Earth's magnetic field induces a current in the armature coil which results in energizing the electro-magnetic stator. (I.E. brushes are connected to the stator field coils in some manner). Does this imply that the machine would be more efficient if it were angled to intercept the Earth's field lines at the same angle as its self-excited lines? (Leedskalnin oriented his pages at 21-ish degrees and built Coral Castle in Florida at 25-ish degrees).

- The Siemens page claims that the device ran away and burned up an electroscope and a run of iron wire (generator wire, i.e. output connected to a battery).

- Two mechanical brushes connected to a single (armature) coil form a fwbr (full wave bridge rectifier). You get two semi-sinusoids (in the same direction) for every 360 degree rotation of the armature. These semi-sinusoids might be considered to be "pulses" (albeit rounded), or they could be smoothed into DC via a capacitor.

- The orientation of the commutator / brushes with respect to the armature coil determines the switch-over point and magnetic field collapse. In (what I call) 0 degree mode the commutator and the coil are in the orientation ( - ). (ASCII art. The dash is the cross section of the coil). As the coil spins (clockwise, say), it delivers a +ve current into the left commutator and a -ve current into the right. When the coil reaches 90 degrees, it reaches the break and delivers no current to either commutator. At this point, the magnetic field in the coil collapses into the opposing commutator as soon as the coil goes beyond 90 degrees (and makes contact with the opposing commutator). This commutator sees a spike followed by a gradual buildup of current for another half-turn. OTOH the 90 degree orientation ( | ) results in a smooth hand-over - the coil builds up a current to maximum then decreases the current, and, at the switch-over point has zero current. No spike, just a semi-sinusoidal current-increase followed by decrease. [I think. This needs to be verified by experiment.]

- A capacitor has many functions in a circuit. A capacitor can (1) sink spikes, converting them to usable energy, (2) smooth a pulsed waveform converting it to DC and (3) be coupled with an inductor to form an LC tank circuit (a bandpass filter) which determines the sweet-spot for a circuit, and, which limits run-away behavior (by "falling off" beyond a certain frequency).
__________________
 

Last edited by pault; 04-07-2016 at 02:12 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 04-07-2016, 02:25 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,624
Quote:
Originally Posted by marseye View Post
I don't yet have any induction motor at hand, and though I'm currently quite broke and unemployed, I'll keep on trying to find one.
Me too
Quote:
Originally Posted by marseye View Post
But most DC motors nowadays have generally magnets.... An AC motor doesn't have brushes :
A universal motor can run on AC or DC has brushes and no magnets. Starter motors are a good example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marseye View Post
, I have a 12V 600w (I believe) DC one somewhere (PARVALUX PM-90L, or something like that), but they are 4 magnets. More than that : the brushes are fitted directly into the front lid's thickness... Hard, if not impossible to try to move them with my equipment. So, not much to await from it. I already have thought of contacting the british manufacture of the motor (PARVALUX) to see if they would be able to make a study motor configuration for me. But I'm affraid they're gonna ask me about magnetization strength, inductance, resistance and so on, and this is all unknown 'til there... And to ask them for movable brushes could reveal costly too.
Im not familiar with that motor but you are right, manufacturers are not interested in modifications and to produce one off's is very expensive.


Quote:
Originally Posted by marseye View Post
I agree with everything here. Except that I believe any arcing can't be harvested, but expenses all that could have been.
It can and its not so hard but to make a really good job you need some machine shop work.


Quote:
Originally Posted by marseye View Post
Electromagnetic field coils would be the must !
I believe so but there is a DC alternative that could use magnets that I have posted about on the Interesting Motor


Quote:
Originally Posted by marseye View Post
I really need to find a brushed induction motor, or a brushed generator now. Where the hell can I have one, and for free ????? (I'm just wondering out loud). Even used starter motors are not cheap, and most have only 2 brushes (I've already searched about BOSCH, and VolksWagen ones)...
Get a 4 pole universal motor.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 04-07-2016, 03:08 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,624
Quote:
Originally Posted by pault View Post

- The Siemens device is extremely simple, yet it claims to posess self-induction (self-excitation).
I think self excitation is almost inevitable with simple machines like this provided the output of the field coil is fed in an appropriate way to the armature. Be it the earth's magnetic field or residual magnetism, a small current will pass which then generates a bigger current and so on. My devices use this principal amongst others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pault View Post
- For a while, I was fooled into thinking that the device self-ran. After re-reading the above paragraph, I now think that it says that the wires became hot when you turned the armature in the "wrong" direction, and, that it could be spun freely when turned in the "right" direction (by a prime mover).

- Is more detail available? E.g. the patent or the society paper (preferably in English).

- The Siemens machine is essentially described in this military video, as long as I am correct in thinking that it is a DC generator. A DC generator has a split commutator and produces rectified waves. An AC generator has separate slip-rings and produces sine-waves.



Points of interest:
8:24 ripples (rectified waves)
14:00 self-exciting, series and shunt configurations
24:00 CEMF

(For completeness, here is the AC lecture: )


- Translations:

"Kommutator mit Bursten" = commutator with brushes.

"Doppel-T-Anker mit Wicklung" = double-T armature with windings

"Pohlschuh" = pole shoe

"Erregerwicklung" = field windings

- The armature is a long cylinder, with length-wise slots which house a single coil. Each end of the coil is connected to a commutator (i.e. two commutators, two brushes).

- The pole shoes are rectangular chunks of iron(?) with semi-circular slots cut in them to house the armature. One pole shoe on top and one on the bottom.

- Two "flat" rectangular coils (wound around iron(?) flat, rectangular plates), one on top and one on bottom, connected to the corresponding pole shoes. The two coils are in the same plane and might have some sort of mutual induction (transformer effect), but the coils are fairly far apart...

- We aren't shown how the coils are connected together (series, parallel?).

- I assume that the top pole is N and the bottom is S and that they don't flip, although they might vary in intensity.

- We aren't shown how the brushes/commutators are oriented. I can think of two extreme orientations with respect to the armature winding - 0 degrees (connection made when the armature coil is horizontal) and 90 degrees (connection made when the armature coild is vertical).

- The Siemens page claims that the armature is hand-cranked at first and that the Earth's magnetic field induces a current in the armature coil which results in energizing the electro-magnetic stator. (I.E. brushes are connected to the stator field coils in some manner). Does this imply that the machine would be more efficient if it were angled to intercept the Earth's field lines at the same angle as its self-excited lines? (Leedskalnin oriented his pages at 21-ish degrees and built Coral Castle in Florida at 25-ish degrees).
Quote:
Originally Posted by pault View Post
- The Siemens page claims that the device ran away and burned up an electroscope and a run of iron wire (generator wire, i.e. output connected to a battery).
I think they are saying it produces a large current with no separate input to the armature. Self exciting generators will burn up if shorted and so require a minimal resistance built in to prevent this. I propose not building in the minimal resistance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pault View Post
- Two mechanical brushes connected to a single (armature) coil form a fwbr (full wave bridge rectifier). You get two semi-sinusoids (in the same direction) for every 360 degree rotation of the armature. These semi-sinusoids might be considered to be "pulses" (albeit rounded), or they could be smoothed into DC via a capacitor.

- The orientation of the commutator / brushes with respect to the armature coil determines the switch-over point and magnetic field collapse. In (what I call) 0 degree mode the commutator and the coil are in the orientation ( - ). (ASCII art. The dash is the cross section of the coil). As the coil spins (clockwise, say), it delivers a +ve current into the left commutator and a -ve current into the right. When the coil reaches 90 degrees, it reaches the break and delivers no current to either commutator. At this point, the magnetic field in the coil collapses into the opposing commutator as soon as the coil goes beyond 90 degrees (and makes contact with the opposing commutator). This commutator sees a spike followed by a gradual buildup of current for another half-turn. OTOH the 90 degree orientation ( | ) results in a smooth hand-over - the coil builds up a current to maximum then decreases the current, and, at the switch-over point has zero current. No spike, just a semi-sinusoidal current-increase followed by decrease. [I think. This needs to be verified by experiment.]

- A capacitor has many functions in a circuit. A capacitor can (1) sink spikes, converting them to usable energy, (2) smooth a pulsed waveform converting it to DC and (3) be coupled with an inductor to form an LC tank circuit (a bandpass filter) which determines the sweet-spot for a circuit, and, which limits run-away behavior (by "falling off" beyond a certain frequency).
The self exciting generator principal is often overlooked as a potential for producing excess electrical power and I agree that alone it cant. But as a part of a more sophisticated device, this trait is very useful.

Get a Universal motor and connect a low resistance load across its supply wires and then spin it up. You should find that you can detect a voltage and current as it is acting as a self exciting generator. The reason you have to spin it very fast is because the residual magnetism has been all but eliminated with the laminated rotor and stator, so high speed is required to get it to initially generate. The next problem is high winding resistance resulting in the poor efficiency of the generated output. If we use a starter motor we eliminate the high resistance and some of the residual magnetism remains, but because of large air gaps and high friction it still isnít a great generator at 35% efficient. If we use a VW/bosch generator the efficiency is much higher. Do you see where this is going?
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 04-08-2016, 08:04 PM
pault pault is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbrownn View Post
Do you see where this is going?
Actually, it would be safer to assume that I don't see where this is going...

If you don't mind, tell me.
__________________
 

Last edited by pault; 04-08-2016 at 08:10 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 04-08-2016, 08:26 PM
pault pault is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 161
I've been reviewing the Lockridge videos, trying to get back up to speed.

Lockridge apparently used (only) Delco-Remy generators to duplicate the Bosch device.

Here's 1944 service manual for Delco-Remy generators, etc.

http://www.easy39th.com/files/TM_9-1...my%29_1944.pdf

One of the videos shows a hand-drawn diagram of the LD with two external black boxes. The above manual shows little boxes containing a couple of electro-mechanical relays. Someone said that the LD made a clicking noise when it ran. Mechanical relays fit that bill.

The videos say (1) that the armature was not modified (although the stator coils were moved) and (2) one winding of the tri-filar coil acted like an AC transformer to light the 300W lamps.

The armature is a many-pole DC generator with split commutators. This should produce DC (not AC) with fairly small ripple. Hence, I conclude that transformer effect could not have been used in the original LD. Am I missing something?
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 04-09-2016, 04:08 AM
bistander bistander is online now
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 724
Delco Remy armatures

Cool old service manual document. Love those diagrams. I see both 2-pole and 4-pole generator armatures in there. And the armature has one commutator. The comm has multiple segments (or bars), like maybe 30 to 40. Output would be DC with a ripple frequency equal to the number of comm segments divided by number of pole pairs times the RPM/60. Commutator and brushes act as a rectifier.

Interesting that it shows a 2-pole generator having 3 brushes. The third brush able to pick off a lower voltage, I guess. Further on it gets into cranking motors showing 4-pole and 6-pole versions. Looking like stuff I worked with years ago.

bi
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 04-09-2016, 01:33 PM
wantomake's Avatar
wantomake wantomake is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 453
4 pole seems best

Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Cool old service manual document. Love those diagrams. I see both 2-pole and 4-pole generator armatures in there. And the armature has one commutator. The comm has multiple segments (or bars), like maybe 30 to 40. Output would be DC with a ripple frequency equal to the number of comm segments divided by number of pole pairs times the RPM/60. Commutator and brushes act as a rectifier.

Interesting that it shows a 2-pole generator having 3 brushes. The third brush able to pick off a lower voltage, I guess. Further on it gets into cranking motors showing 4-pole and 6-pole versions. Looking like stuff I worked with years ago.

bi
Thanks bi,
The pdf is cool indeed. I'm trying to find the model with four poles and brushes to experiment with. But no luck so far. If only just the end cap for the brushes would be good start.

I've gone through several 50's 12v delco remy generators to get almost exact replication J. Bedini shows in his video. It did motor good but pulled 3 to 4 amps from two deep cycle batteries. The brush holder setup i fabricated was not accurate and needed constant adjustments. Therefore having a good end cap brush holder would put me back to a good testing point.

As we all do the project got put aside and forgotten. The capacitor/coil I spent weeks of time and learned much. But it too got assimilated back into other projects.

Seeing your experience with these, do you know the model number with the four pole generator? Never seen one in this area I live in.

Thanks again,
wantomake
@ Hiwater, do you know this model number or type?
__________________
 

Last edited by wantomake; 04-09-2016 at 01:36 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 04-09-2016, 02:09 PM
bistander bistander is online now
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 724
Quote:
Originally Posted by wantomake View Post
Seeing your experience with these, do you know the model number with the four pole generator? Never seen one in this area I live in.
Don't have any model numbers. Have you been looking at military surplus? Most of my experience was with motors from Delco competitors. Good luck.

bi
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 04-09-2016, 02:23 PM
marseye marseye is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 117
Hi Pals,

Thank you all for the quality of your contributions (for once : no trolls in sight... up to now. And that feels so good !)


Just a quick note, talking about "mechanical relays".

Quote:
Originally Posted by pault
I've been reviewing the Lockridge videos, trying to get back up to speed.

Lockridge apparently used (only) Delco-Remy generators to duplicate the Bosch device.

Here's 1944 service manual for Delco-Remy generators, etc.

http://www.easy39th.com/files/TM_9-1...my%29_1944.pdf

One of the videos shows a hand-drawn diagram of the LD with two external black boxes. The above manual shows little boxes containing a couple of electro-mechanical relays. Someone said that the LD made a clicking noise when it ran. Mechanical relays fit that bill.
(...)
That reminded me of Leeskalnin : according to the goldmine channel of the Youtube user "Made by One Man", it's now demonstrated that his wheels were driven with impulses, through "mechanical relays" (the user says that one of these relays is kept in the museum).

Here, the Leedskalnin's wheel in action :




Here, a quarrying method under a tripod:




But more generally, this channel demonstrates too the many other "secrets" of Leedskalnin (its tripods, and what electric equipments which went under, and were energized from the main timing wheel's master relay bursts). After one sees this, it all becomes very clear !!! This channel is all a must see, very clever and demystifying (see the older videos, as they were the first reason for the channel): https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsO...sKLZHBehUt6Iig

NOTA : such few viewers for these videos... That's a shame, since it seems to me that it's of the utmost importance ! But that may explain why it's still online ! Copy, copy, copy, before it's too late "again" (so many interesting videos have already disappeared in the past)...


Now, we must essentially question ourselves about the true virtues of the sharp energizing burst pointed out since long now by John Bedini, Joseph Newman, The Keppe motor (Newman simpler variant), and so many men before them (and more : Edward Leedskalnin now demonstrated).

We have to experiment more and more, because the truth is still out there !



ps : if the user "Made by One Man" (Scott RUSSEL) is around : thanks a thousand times for you are ! You are a very rare person, my best prayers for your overall wellness ! Stay safe !
__________________
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
M.E. Who else ?...

Last edited by marseye; 04-10-2016 at 11:24 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 04-09-2016, 03:10 PM
wantomake's Avatar
wantomake wantomake is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 453
Lazy brain

Quote:
Originally Posted by pault View Post
I've been reviewing the Lockridge videos, trying to get back up to speed.

Lockridge apparently used (only) Delco-Remy generators to duplicate the Bosch device.

Here's 1944 service manual for Delco-Remy generators, etc.

http://www.easy39th.com/files/TM_9-1...my%29_1944.pdf

One of the videos shows a hand-drawn diagram of the LD with two external black boxes. The above manual shows little boxes containing a couple of electro-mechanical relays. Someone said that the LD made a clicking noise when it ran. Mechanical relays fit that bill.

The videos say (1) that the armature was not modified (although the stator coils were moved) and (2) one winding of the tri-filar coil acted like an AC transformer to light the 300W lamps.

The armature is a many-pole DC generator with split commutators. This should produce DC (not AC) with fairly small ripple. Hence, I conclude that transformer effect could not have been used in the original LD. Am I missing something?
pault,
My apologies. You posted the pdf. The morning cup of coffee had not kicked in yet.

I poured over and over that video to glean as much info as possible. Two notebooks and tired brains to boot. I really studied a lot to just to be able to get to the motor part of the machine. But got little generated voltage output.

But anyway I enjoyed the experience with the Lockridge device,
wantomake
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 04-09-2016, 03:28 PM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,624
Quote:
Originally Posted by pault View Post

One of the videos shows a hand-drawn diagram of the LD with two external black boxes. The above manual shows little boxes containing a couple of electro-mechanical relays. Someone said that the LD made a clicking noise when it ran. Mechanical relays fit that bill.
Interesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by pault View Post
The videos say (1) that the armature was not modified (although the stator coils were moved) and (2) one winding of the tri-filar coil acted like an AC transformer to light the 300W lamps.
Correct, thats what the video says but I disagree. Firstly the only device they had was an attempted modification of the original device with transistors etc. From that we could assume it was being pulsed although there are other possibilities. The standard armature would work with pulses but would not pulse on its own like it would need to in the original device. If the electronics were designed to make it pulse, I assumed that the original device also pulsed.

I also carried out some tests using DC, pulsed DC and AC and from those found strong transformer actions with the pulsed DC and AC. This seemed to be logical as a method of getting a second electrical output other than the generated one.

In conclusion to make the device pulse without an external commutator or electronics, the armature has to be modified, and this is my favoured position at this time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pault View Post
The armature is a many-pole DC generator with split commutators. This should produce DC (not AC) with fairly small ripple. Hence, I conclude that transformer effect could not have been used in the original LD. Am I missing something?
The only thing your missing is that the device JB has is not an original device but a modified unit with electronics. With external pulsing we can get a standard armature to give strong transformer actions, so yes it may have been using them. Without, we have to use a modified armature.

There are still some options to be tried with the standard armature as it appears to be a form of wave winding and not lap. I havenít had access to such a winding.

Do you see where this is going? .... What im getting at is that it will be unlikely that I will succeed using starter motors and universal motors as the efficiency and make up is not right. To build a Lockridge we need the right parts ie the original Bosch or delco generators.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 04-09-2016, 03:44 PM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,624
To all,

My input is only what I have done and what I believe, It may work differently, so do not overlook anything. Try everything, Trial and error was the way that I moved forward and I recommend you do the same. The goal is to make it work and if we work together, even if we are trying different things, we will progress faster.

__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 04-09-2016, 10:09 PM
Hiwater Hiwater is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 44
Wantomake--No, I don't have a clue as to what those generators came off from. Would be nice to find out more info on them though.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 02-15-2017, 12:15 PM
marseye marseye is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 117
Sorry for I'm digging up that old subjet, but an idea just poped-up.

It started after I just had been wondering how was Edison's CC generated. So was I remembered that it had depended upon the dynamo invention ! (alternators and AC had got popularized later).

And what's the difference between an alternator and a dynamo ? The coiling, of course !

With a dynamo, the coil (stator) is wrapped along the alernating poles path. With an alternator, the coil is wrapped across.


Can't it make sense if we consider the case's manmade openings in the Lockridge device, then the trifilar coil wrapped around the case, along the rotor's electromagnetic path ?

I preferred to share my thoughts here, as I wish s.o. could try to check that before I can (I actualy still have no room, nor the convenient equipment to set this experiment up).

What do you think ? Has anyone around a good knowledge about dynamo's output capabilities ? Could it be better for the 2 systems (dynamo and alternator) to share the same electromagnetic rotor ? (since in both cases, there's a BEMF arising for each... Can they cooperate ? Are they in sync, or do they alternate ?) Certainly, the output current must be regulated (hence the "capacitor)". Any rectification device seem to have been always missing. Missing, or forgotten from the general scheme ?


Just my 2 cents.
__________________
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
M.E. Who else ?...

Last edited by marseye; 02-15-2017 at 01:37 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 02-15-2017, 05:05 PM
wantomake's Avatar
wantomake wantomake is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 453
Moving on

Quote:
Originally Posted by marseye View Post
Sorry for I'm digging up that old subjet, but an idea just poped-up.

It started after I just had been wondering how was Edison's CC generated. So was I remembered that it had depended upon the dynamo invention ! (alternators and AC had got popularized later).

And what's the difference between an alternator and a dynamo ? The coiling, of course !

With a dynamo, the coil (stator) is wrapped along the alernating poles path. With an alternator, the coil is wrapped across.


Can't it make sense if we consider the case's manmade openings in the Lockridge device, then the trifilar coil wrapped around the case, along the rotor's electromagnetic path ?

I preferred to share my thoughts here, as I wish s.o. could try to check that before I can (I actualy still have no room, nor the convenient equipment to set this experiment up).

What do you think ? Has anyone around a good knowledge about dynamo's output capabilities ? Could it be better for the 2 systems (dynamo and alternator) to share the same electromagnetic rotor ? (since in both cases, there's a BEMF arising for each... Can they cooperate ? Are they in sync, or do they alternate ?) Certainly, the output current must be regulated (hence the "capacitor)". Any rectification device seem to have been always missing. Missing, or forgotten from the general scheme ?


Just my 2 cents.
Marseye,
I don't think the trifilar coil is close enough to the armature to create any flux movements that can be measured. Also the case is there also between them. Not to forget the field coils also.
The cut in the case is still a mystery to me. Some think it's to create a transformer effect, stop hysteresis, cooling of the motor? I tested my build with a large hand made trifilar coil and capacitor wrapped around the case, but got no noticeable measurements in the coil or capacitor when spinning the armature in the generation mode.

Like I posted earlier, spent a lot of funds and time on builds, but my ability to put the different technologies together in this single unit is lacking.

Therefore like most here, I put that aside and moved on to other projects.

wantomake
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 02-15-2017, 06:12 PM
marseye marseye is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 117
Hi wantomake,

Nice job you've done so far. No one can blame you for puting this aside. Keep the faith that further relevant ideas could re-grow your will to saddle-on back up (I never said that my ideas had such power)

To all:

I have more questions inside :
  • can the back of the electro-coils from the stator inside of the Lockridge device to "magnetize" the case (is the back pole driving its case portion to a fixed pole zone ? Or the magnetism isn't shaded, going through the case ?) ?
  • might the open slots leave some resulting "moving/passing magnetism" to come out (reach the trifilar) to futher disturb (help move) the current potentially already generated in the trifilar from the stator's electro-magnets ?


Please follow me : a North magnetic pole "feeds" a coil by pushing the free-electrons (electrons have a negative electronic sign) in the collecting coil's copper. A South magnetic pole attracts the electrons, hence the movement from free-electrons in the coil. (charges alike repel each other ; charges opposed attract each other. That's why a balloon sticks to my hair after it's been rubbed against , let's say, felt : the balloon and my hair are now of opposite electr(on)ic sign.

Let's remember what our missed John B. did say about the shape of two alike poles converting into a super pole. Weren't he slots conveniently open between the stator's alike electromagnets ? Which can be the superpoles evolution in front of the attracting or repulsing faces of the rotor's armature ?

Damn, my head is boiling, and I'm feeling frustrated not to be able to check my thoughts... My best might be about trying with a joule thief, at least to check if I can get something back, and how much (a self-running joule thief would alredy be a miracle, isn't it ? But the Lockridge device once existed, as several were in the wild, right ? The underlying principle, though clever, might not have been exactly hi-tech !)
__________________
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
M.E. Who else ?...

Last edited by marseye; 02-15-2017 at 06:58 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 02-16-2017, 02:43 AM
Hiwater Hiwater is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 44
Good to hear the discussion. Keep it up guys.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 02-16-2017, 04:50 PM
wantomake's Avatar
wantomake wantomake is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 453
Many theories

Hiwater,
Long time no read. Much discussion for sure is needed to finish this elusive dream.

There are motor/generator types out there already. The modified Matthew motor on the 3BGS thread will produce voltage as it motors along. Take two of the four brushes for motoring, and use two remaining brushes to collect bemf or energy. But it causes arching on the source(power input) brushes.

The component that stores the Input/output power is the golden grail of this device. How does a component receive, hold, and release energy at the same time. No type of battery or capacitor does this. That I know of. Did the trifilar coil power the capacitor that was wrapped around it? And the capacitor was the source of input to the motor? Or was it vise versa? Did the large flywheel keep the motor spinning as it switched from motor to generator to power the capacitor, then switch back to motor mode?

Most of my time and research is spent on this part of this device. I've seen it called a coilpacitor. I build thumb sized ones up to one that fits over the case of the device. It was only a prototype and not constructed as John B. said in the video. So I don't know. Maybe I'm way off here. I'm open to correction and teachable.

Just some of my experiences on this,
wantomake
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 02-17-2017, 01:44 AM
Hiwater Hiwater is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 44
wantomake. It anybodys guess how the tri coil and capacitor works. One thing to remember is the load drives the (motor function). The magnetic field thru the armature
when the gen pole shoes are in the right position.

The back spike should not interfere with the motoring function it just charging a capacitor.
To be switched in and out of motoring side.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 02-17-2017, 02:35 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,624
Its good to see you guys thinking about the case. The case is a big lump of iron, it will attract flux, and at the voltages and current we are considering it is unlikely much flux will escape that case.

Even with opposing poles creating a super pole, I doubt that much will escape through the slot in the case as the flux will by its nature bend towards a large lump of iron. For these reasons I believe that the flux is supposed to remain in the case.

I believe the split in the case is to create separate paths for the flux, and specifically create a path that causes rotational torque while generating.

Take a look at this thread where I explain how the generator works and how it creates torque at the same time Interesting Motor In this thread I discuss how the device is used as a DC generator or dynamo. This is very important to understanding some of the principals we are using. You will also see how the slots in the case cause the flux to make this happen. It is counter intuitive but
everything is standard electrical and magnetic principals.

The lockridge device is likely pulsing so now we have a changing field which will create a form of AC and this is where it gets complicated, but please spend some time understanding the process of generation used and how it creates torque.

I believe the capacitor is for recovery of inductive kickback and the trifilar coil has more than one purpose.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
lockridge, siemens, von

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Please consider supporting Energetic Forum with a voluntary monthly subscription.

For One-Time Donations, use admin@ this domain > energeticforum.com

Choose your voluntary subscription

All times are GMT. The time now is 05:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v1.4.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Shoutbox provided by vBShout v6.2.8 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
2007-2015 Copyright - Energetic Forum - All Rights Reserved

Bedini RPX Sideband Generator

Tesla Chargers