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  #1  
Old 01-29-2016, 07:27 PM
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SkyWatcher SkyWatcher is offline
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Attraction Generator Using Rotating Coils

Hi folks, i had an idea come to me last night, it is a generator using rotating coils.
It would be an axial coil rotor, with permanent magnet on one side of rotating coils and a ferromagnetic core with low eddy current losses on other side of rotating coils.
The idea is, that when the rotating coil approaches the permanent magnet on one side, the other side of the coil facing the ferromagnetic core, will be attracted to the core.
In hopes that this will cancel out at minimum, the lenz opposing forces to the rotating coils when generating current.
It is possible that a biasing magnet could be placed at the back of the ferromagnetic core of low flux strength, to help boost this attraction of the coil to the ferromagnetic core.
Of course, commutator or slip rings would be needed to extract power from rotating coils.
Let me know what you folks think about this idea.
peace love light

Edit: oh one more thing, a diode could be added to prevent current flowing on rotating coil departure, to prevent lenz force pulling it back and negating the device goals.
And air coils might be best to start with.
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Last edited by SkyWatcher; 01-29-2016 at 07:47 PM.
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  #2  
Old 01-30-2016, 01:44 PM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Could you do a sketch of that? I have been working with attraction on a generator for years but using powered field coils and not magnets.
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Old 01-30-2016, 06:19 PM
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Hi mbrownn, don't mind this bad drawing, have to get my drawing programs back and running.
The coils can be seen on the rotor.
To the right is the stationary permanent magnet.
To the left is a low eddy current ferromagnetic material, with nothing else on it, except maybe a weak magnet at the back to help the coil attract to it without inducing much lenz in coil from that side.



peace love light
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Old 01-31-2016, 02:24 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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The way I see things may not be the way others do but bare with me for a while, Im going to explain how I believe it works.

Am EMF is created in a coil or wire when there is a change of intensity of magnetic flux within that coil and when the flux moves within the core of the coil.

The first thing you have is when the coil approaches the magnet, the flux is intensifying within the coil and so an EMF is created. The EMF will also occur as the coil leaves the magnet.

An EMF is also created when the flux sweeps across the core of a coil.

So when your coil approaches and passes the magnet, the flux will effectively sweep from one side of the core to the other creating an emf.

As you know, magnetism prefers to flow through iron, so any magnetic field caused by your magnet will tend to replicate at your iron.

This means that your iron acts just like a magnet as far as your coil is concerned, provided the iron is within range of the magnet.

You can imagine a return path for the flux coming out of the left side of the iron and passing in a clockwise arc towards the right side of the magnet to complete the magnetic circuit. Normally the iron motor frame creates this path.

No current will flow through your coil unless you make a circuit. So in an open circuit condition there is no lenz. The moment you make a circuit you have lenz's law to contend with. The lenz effects will occur both at the iron side and at the magnet side.

Can you understand my explanation?
Is this how you see it?
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Old 01-31-2016, 08:25 PM
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G field

g field.jpg

Is this what your thinking? This is from John Bedini's website Icehouse.net.
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Old 01-31-2016, 08:30 PM
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Magnetic flux, g flux

g flux.jpg mag flux gate.jpg

Also from there, probably better fits.
Aln
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Old 01-31-2016, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alman View Post
Attachment 16691 Attachment 16692

Also from there, probably better fits.
Aln

Great work Aln

I always like to see diagram of something that folks are building.
When most look at this they can't tell if it is any different than a
regular motor because they don't visualize one of them either.

I have some EE level books with diagram's that show a very
complex math and geometry on how to get a normal motor to
run without heat.

Your pictures are super. I wish someone with motor design
math capabilities would chime in and give us a hint on how to
build practical designs and why.

Do you know anyone who can do this? I think that trial and error
is not the best way to get started so this is why inventors make
a list of materials for those who desire to follow that keeps them
from failure. However those designed came from the math and
experience in the EE field and most don't realize the deeper
aspects of any design.

I think heat and vibration are important to eliminate.

Thanks for the art work, I will continue to look at this
.
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Old 02-01-2016, 03:23 AM
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Hi folks, thanks for the replies and interest.
This is just an idea, i have not attempted any building as of yet.
This device would be designed to limit the permanent magnets field from interacting with the ferromagnetic material on the left in drawing.
Since it is only an attraction generator, diodes would be used somewhere, to prevent the rotating coils from being pulled back to stationary permanent magnet.
So emf will not occur when coils leave permanent magnet, only when the coil approaches.
The main idea here, is that the other end of the coil, will be attracted to a ferromagnetic material.
Which will be the focus of the whole design, getting the maximum attraction at that interface, when current is induced within the coil.
This is similar to the attraction motor, where the whole focus, is getting maximum attraction, though in this case, it is a generator.
From experience of building an attraction motor, it was difficult to get much attraction using an axial design.
Which is why i suggested using a weak biasing magnet at back of ferromagnetic core.
A radial design could be made, which may perform better at negating the lenz interaction between the other end of of the coil and permanent magnet.
A small model could be more easily built and then just placing a resistor across coils on rotor or shorting coils to see how the design functions.
If results are promising, a slip ring setup could be built later for powering loads external to the rotor coils.
peace love light
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Old 02-01-2016, 07:15 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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What is the core of your coils made of? Are the cores of your coils attracted to the magnets?
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Old 02-01-2016, 07:52 PM
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Hi mbrownn, they would be air coils on the rotor to start with.
Cores could be tried, though that would probably lead to unwanted induced lenz, in other side of coil, since the permanent magnets field would traverse through that core to the stationary ferromagnetic material on left in drawing.
So, the first test design, should use air coils.
I do plan on building a test model of this at some point in time.
peace love light
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Old 02-02-2016, 01:13 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyWatcher View Post
Hi mbrownn, they would be air coils on the rotor to start with.
Cores could be tried, though that would probably lead to unwanted induced lenz, in other side of coil, since the permanent magnets field would traverse through that core to the stationary ferromagnetic material on left in drawing.
So, the first test design, should use air coils.
I do plan on building a test model of this at some point in time.
peace love light
Generation is a product of lenz, but there can be no lenz when we have an open circuit. My thought is to close the circuit to get generation and open it when we dont want drag. I use attraction and so when the poles attract each other we get generation and torque produced. Effectively at the point where we would get drag, I go open circuit and turn off the magnets. I can do that because I use coils for the magnets.
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Old 02-03-2016, 02:37 AM
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Hi mbrownn, thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Yes, those ideas would work also, as long as the main principal of the device is followed.
That of one side of the rotating coil attracting to a ferromagnetic material, to at least nullify the lenz effect created between the other end of coil and permanent magnet.
peace love light
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Old 02-03-2016, 12:00 PM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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I do like the attraction method but for reasons I have not posted here. Keep us informed of experiments.
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Old 02-03-2016, 11:20 PM
shylo shylo is offline
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Hi mbrownn, you said,
"Generation is a product of lenz,"
I think lenz is a result of generation, no?
Generation begins and then lenz shows up ,fighting our attempt at generation.
Stop the path of lenz by redirecting it to a seprate storage.
The fly back of a coil can be used without loading down the generator.
Just use this for powering loads.
Steel cores just add problems with saturation , and lingering effects, air core is the way to go. IMHO
A coil can be whatever we want , a N or , a S , a steel core will retain it's polarity for a period of time, and it takes work to change that polarity.
Just saying, sorry for the interuption.
artv
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Old 02-03-2016, 11:53 PM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shylo View Post
Hi mbrownn, you said,
"Generation is a product of lenz,"
I think lenz is a result of generation, no?
Generation begins and then lenz shows up ,fighting our attempt at generation.
Stop the path of lenz by redirecting it to a seprate storage.
The fly back of a coil can be used without loading down the generator.
Just use this for powering loads.
Steel cores just add problems with saturation , and lingering effects, air core is the way to go. IMHO
A coil can be whatever we want , a N or , a S , a steel core will retain it's polarity for a period of time, and it takes work to change that polarity.
Just saying, sorry for the interuption.
artv
I suppose we all interpret Lenz's law "If an induced current flows, its direction is always such that it will oppose the change which produced it."

So what is the change? a dynamic magnetic field, so what I am saying is the current of generation is a product of a changing magnetic field and in this case a physically moving one as opposed to increasing or decreasing.

What is it opposed to? the change in the field. In this case the movement of the field and not any increase or decrease in strength.

Flyback in coils is also subject to lenz'z law.

Steel or iron cores introduce a number of effects, some positive and some negative depending upon your point of view. The steel also exhibits a resistance to change.

The trick is to create a geometry which gives more positive traits than negative from our point of view. All the traits will be there, its just how we position ourselves in relation to these traits.

Only by changing a condition do we add or remove traits, such as open circuit or closing a circuit on a coil.

Also by adding or subtracting components or varying their condition we can modify a trait. For example we can short a coil in the magnetic circuit and change the inductance of the other coils in the circuit.

Non of this is fooling Lenz's law, we are just altering the conditions under which it produces its effects.
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