Energetic Forum  
Facebook Twitter Google+ Pinterest LinkedIn Delicious Digg Reddit WordPress StumbleUpon Tumblr Translate Addthis Aaron Murakami YouTube 2018 ENERGY CONFERENCE - ALL SEATS SOLD OUT!

2018 Energy Science & Technology Conference
Sponsored by Teslacoin Foundation

Teslacoin Foundation

https://www.teslastarter.org


Go Back   Energetic Forum > >
   

Renewable Energy Discussion on various alternative energy, renewable energy, & free energy technologies. Also any discussion about the environment, global warming, and other related topics are welcome here.

* NEW * BEDINI RPX BOOK & DVD SET: BEDINI RPX

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 01-09-2016, 12:49 AM
Turion's Avatar
Turion Turion is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,551
Your Basic Coil

I thought I would start this thread because I believe there are folks out there who may have insight, knowledge or experience they could share with the rest of us to get us to where we want to be. I am not a particularly intelligent individual when it comes to electronics. I am just stubborn as hell and will butt my head against a wall until I find a way through it. But I have figured out a few things, borrowed a few things from others, and spent a lot of time and money researching this stuff. There are things I know how to do, but do not yet understand the WHY of it, and that bothers me.

Let me put before you a premise, and let's go from there. What if you had a home made generator with magnets on the rotor and iron cores in the coils, and there was no magnetic attraction between the iron cores and the magnets on the rotors, so your rotor would basically freewheel when spun by hand, but you STILL got to take advantage of the induced field from the magnets in the wire wrapped around the core of the coil. Would that be of some value?
Now what if you could then add a load to that generator and it caused the motor running it to speed up, drawing fewer amps. Would THAT be of even greater benefit to you?

Step #1 I can show you how to do. In fact, I've made sure that understanding how to do this does not vanish from the face of the earth if something happens to me, but I'm not sharing it yet because....Matt is building a prototype right now that he is sending me so I can get the coils wound. I built a small two coil model, and it worked, so we are putting something together we can share with others. When it is done, when we have tested it, when we KNOW it works, then you'll see it here.

So now, let's talk about coils speeding up under load. I have seen coils speed up under load. I have seen it with air core coils and with solid core coils. I have seen it with "regular cores" made out of welding rod, and with U shaped coils. What do all these coils that speed up under load have in common??? Come on, you can tell me, right? Can't you make EVERY coil speed up under load?

Matt built a two coil prototype motor with iron cores and high impedance coils and it sped up under load. Citfta ran a rotor through the pump motor coils and got them to BARELY speed up under load, and I ran my rotor but could NOT get them to speed up under load. Why? Same coil, but different rotors at different speeds with different magnets. Angus Wangus shows U shaped coils (like the pump motor coils) speeding up under load. BIG time. I replicated his experiment and mine worked like a charm with a U shaped piece of iron rod, so I thought the pump motor coils would be a natural. They are the right shape, and already wound. No joy so far.

So my question is folks, what EXACTLY do we know about how to get a coil to speed up under load? Is it the resistance? Is it impedance (Thaine Heinz says so, and I have seen it work with high impedance coils, but also with coils that are NOT high impedance.) Is it the size of the magnets? The number of magnets per second (or some ratio like that) If we KNOW the answer, then we should be able to make EVERY coil we build speed up under load. What IS the magic formula? I have four different coils that will speed up under load right now, and I need to set my test stand back up to start gathering some data. I hope I don't have to do it alone, because I will, but it would be nice if ALL of us benefited from this information. We're all in this together, right?

Dave
__________________
"I aim to misbehave" Malcolm Reynolds
"Try Not! Do or do not. There is no 'Try' ". Yoda
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

Download SOLAR SECRETS by Peter Lindemann
Free - Get it now: Solar Secrets

  #2  
Old 01-10-2016, 12:16 AM
blackchisel97's Avatar
blackchisel97 blackchisel97 is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: NB, Canada
Posts: 1,700
Send a message via Skype™ to blackchisel97
This is how I believe it works:
in mechanical set up (rotor-coils) we are dealing with two systems. One consisting of rotor with magnets and second, our coil(s).
When we look at the rotor, we have couple variables which are responsible for it's performance - rotor diameter, magnet size and their number.(possibly their spacing but it may not be critical)
Each time single magnet passes the coil can be counted as one pulse per revolution.
When rotor rotates with constant speed there is also a constant number of magnets per coil per unit of time, either minutes or seconds. This would be the rotor frequency.
Now, if we look at single coil, we have RLC cicuit where are also variables, such as wire size, it's length ( resistance), number of turns, coil dimensions (length vs diameter, core type and diameter and way in which coil is wound - single/bifilar/multifilar.
This circuit will have it's own resonant frequency which will change if we change any of the variables. Higher inductance will likely resonate lower than low inductance. Also, coil capacitance can be adjusted by different winding configuration (single vs bifilar).
What I think is happening when rotor speeds up is that both are close to resonance or perhaps rotor is close to a subharmonic of a coil. Adding coils and connecting them together can actually bring both resonances in pare and that's when we hit the jackpot.
The reason that different people observe such effect at various speeds are caused by different build parameters - rotors, magnets, wire and coil types.
Smaller rotors with few magnets will have to go close to supersonic speed to reach
small coil frequency (or subharmonic). Large rotors can go much smaller but coils have to have relatively low frequencies - larger or higher internal capacitance.
Summarizing, we have two resonant circuits (systems) which have to be matched.

I welcome to be corrected at any point but this is the way I see it and can understand.

V
__________________
'Get it all on record now - get the films - get the witnesses -because somewhere down the road of history some bastard will get up and say that this never happened'

General D.Eisenhower


http://www.nvtronics.org
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-10-2016, 12:57 AM
Turion's Avatar
Turion Turion is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,551
Agreed

I have to say I agree with you. The question is, how do we go about collecting the information (or do some of us have it already) to put something together so we know that with a rotor of x size and with x number of magnets of x size we have to turn the rotor at x rpm to speed up under load when we have x turns of x sized wire.

Look at the sheer number of variables in that statement and realize that they ALL have to be correct to get what we are looking for. Is it any wonder that not EVERYONE who messes with this has put together the conditions to get speed up under load???
__________________
"I aim to misbehave" Malcolm Reynolds
"Try Not! Do or do not. There is no 'Try' ". Yoda
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-10-2016, 01:52 AM
Bob Smith Bob Smith is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 787
For what it's worth guys - something I posted on TheMinoly's thread, in which Erfinder was posting as well, here's the link:
http://www.energeticforum.com/284268-post167.html

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by erfinder View Post
Most experiment with solid state systems, I decided long ago that I could learn more about the nature of the field by exploring motors and generators.

We are informed of what inductance is, how it relates to frequency, how it's not constant, varying with frequency, reluctance, and saturation. We are informed of how it relates to the number of turns in a conductor, and current operating in that conductor. No such relation is mentioned regarding capacitance. I find that strange. The only capacitance we are informed of is the distributed capacity. The distributed capacity is an artifact born out of geometry. The value is orders lower than the actual capacity of the coil. I found the capacity, its all about perspective, it was there the entire time, we cannot see it for reasons too numerous for mentioning. Finding it means reevaluating everything. After you recognize it, you recognize that the manner in which we generate today is in a word.....wrong.

We have identified where the seat of inductance is from a geometric stand point, and done so in a totally non scientific manner, now we need to find the seat of capacity, and experience for yourselves how the two are not in phase, and as such, will never give us what we are all after....namely....

the key to conversion. What I mean here is the systems as they are only generate reactive power because the system by design is setup to produce reactive power......

Regards
Quote:
FWIW, something I just posted on OLS' thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Smith View Post
Not sure if this will help - from Scherz & Monk's Practical Electronics for Inventors, Third Edition, p. 154. There's actually a mistake in the text on this page, I think (due to two contradictory statements about inductance, capacitance and frequency), but I'll go with the one that lines up with what the page's graphics illustrate:

Quote:
"When a voltage changes due to ac current passing through a coil, the effect is that of many small capacitors acting in parallel with the inductance of the coil."...

"Inductors exhibit distributed capacitance... Below resonance, the reactance is inductive... Above resonance, the reactance is capacitive and increases with frequency."

In other words, at self-resonant frequency, the coil's impedance is at its highest. As frequency increases above that of self-resonance, the impedance of an inductor drops, and its capacitance rises.
Bob
If anyone has the book, Practical Electronics for Inventors, they can check this out for themselves. There's a nice graph that goes with it as well, p. 154. But the way I understand it, and I think this might be what Blackchisel is referring to, once you get above resonance (with either faster rotor speed or more magnets in rotor), your impedance drops off very quickly.
FWIW
Bob
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-10-2016, 02:04 AM
Turion's Avatar
Turion Turion is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,551
Information

I read that when erfinder posted it as well as your response. I was interested then and am interested now. I wish erfinder would give us the steak instead of the table scraps, so that we could possibly understand where he is coming from. Perhaps some day that will happen. "Where's the beef?!" LOL. We will get there eventually and I appreciate your contribution.

Dave
__________________
"I aim to misbehave" Malcolm Reynolds
"Try Not! Do or do not. There is no 'Try' ". Yoda
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-10-2016, 05:05 AM
blackchisel97's Avatar
blackchisel97 blackchisel97 is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: NB, Canada
Posts: 1,700
Send a message via Skype™ to blackchisel97
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrionLightShip View Post
I used the wrong terms to describe what I'm really thinking. Time constant is not correct.

As far as self-resonant frequency of coils go, I think we may be stretching a bit. A low inductance coil is going to be way up the megahertz scale. I'm not sure you can get meaningful effects from super low subharmonics..
Hi Orion,

I just measured one of my small coils to verify.
It is bifilar 400 T of 0.4mm (0.016in) measuring 35mm x 35mm (1.38in) with 10.34mm (0.4in) ferrite core. It shows first resonance at 148kHz for single strand but wait, when connected in reversed series resonance dropped down to 20kHz and this is only bifilar coil, not tri or multifilar.This may be just one way of increasing coil capacitance thus, lowering frequency.
Rotor spinning at 1800 RPM has frequency of 30Hz but that's for single pulse, once per rotation. Multiplied by 6 magnets will give us 180Hz but again, this is for one coil stator.

Perhaps I over complicated or over simplified as there might be other factors.
I'm trying to build second rotor setup and test something so I won't mislead others with my thoughts.

V
__________________
'Get it all on record now - get the films - get the witnesses -because somewhere down the road of history some bastard will get up and say that this never happened'

General D.Eisenhower


http://www.nvtronics.org
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-10-2016, 09:20 PM
alman's Avatar
alman alman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrionLightShip View Post
...
What I was thinking can easily be viewed by looking at the reflection rule of a coaxial transmission line. If the end is open then you have the wave reflected. If the end is closed, you get the same reflection but the wave is inverted. Technically it is a matter of the reactive impedance being higher or lower than the dc resistance and I don't think it matters whether or not the reactive impedance is capacitive or inductive.

therefore, you need only insure that the output impedance of the coil is severely mismatched with the rest of the circuit and you will get that reflected wave.

So, at the right rpm, the reflected wave could boost the rpm/lower current draw, yes?...
A coil can resonate a multiple frequencies can't it?
It appears to me one of the common threads used by many to stimulate "free energy" whether it is speeding up a rotor under load and decreasing amp draw, or extracting usable energy (capacitive or magnetic or both) is introducing a counter force like voltage or current like in the 3BGS/splitting the positive or bucking coils. In John Bedini's splitting the positive his counter force is just under 1/2 of the force in position 1 with the dead battery being in battery 3 spot. We see this reationship 2:1 in some of the bucking coil arrangments as well (POC etc.). The mismatch shows up in Bedini's bifilar ssg coil (different gauges of wire) as well. To illicit a "cold form" of electricity one needs to force out surges of voltage through abrupt switching into high impedance load or surges of current between negatives in low impedance load. just thoughts as well, not over the top yet either. Running solid state ssg's between the positives right now, been using rotored ones for years and have been missing out. Why rotor unless you are going to generate too! No lenz acceleration under load is needed to make the rotored machines come alive. Al
__________________
 

Last edited by alman; 01-10-2016 at 09:24 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-10-2016, 11:14 PM
shylo shylo is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 594
does an open coil with no core ,not connected to anything cause drag (create lenz)?
My test's say no.
If you put diodes on the leads of the coil and put a cap on the other ends of the diodes, this collects the back spike, which is lenz, drain lenz 'store it in the cap and then use it.
If at 100 rpm an arbitrary # , the coil produces say 2 volts, with a bridge connected and a cap connected to the bridge, at 100 rpm that cap will stay at 2 volts , there will be lenz until the cap reaches 2 volts , but after that lenz disappears.
After the initial bridge and cap are charged , don't drain it, the additional caps via the other diodes can be drained without lenz showing up since the bridge and cap stay fully charged , use the flyback only.
artv
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-11-2016, 08:09 PM
barbosi barbosi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 270
Now what?

__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-11-2016, 08:52 PM
blackchisel97's Avatar
blackchisel97 blackchisel97 is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: NB, Canada
Posts: 1,700
Send a message via Skype™ to blackchisel97
Quote:
Originally Posted by erfinder View Post

In the link you will find a vague video demonstration of the effect you all want, acceleration under load. [U][COLOR="Red"]This time around, I show you that it can be done using one low resistance, low inductance coil operating at low frequency.
Hi erfinder,

I believe the same effect would be present with magnet passing in between two coils except, the second one should be opposite polarity.
Also, same effect would manifest with single coil connected right and two rotors with opposing magnetic pairs. Am I correct?

Thanks
V
__________________
'Get it all on record now - get the films - get the witnesses -because somewhere down the road of history some bastard will get up and say that this never happened'

General D.Eisenhower


http://www.nvtronics.org
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-12-2016, 01:45 AM
shylo shylo is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 594
I think using a rotor with opposite poles oriented is a mistake.
The rotor should be all the same pole.
When a magnet approaches a coil it induces a pole into that coil, when the magnet hits TDC the pole reverses, now the coil is trying to pull the passing magnet back , but if the next approaching magnet is of the same polarity ,it will draw it in.
Thats the sweet spot.
During the whole process a backspike is produced ,collect that and use it also.It doesn't seem to cause any extra load.
Coil shorting can add even more. I haven't got there yet.
Just gotta figure out how to put them altogether.
artv
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #12  
Old 01-12-2016, 06:17 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,638
Quote:
Originally Posted by erfinder View Post
I am looking for a serious audiance. I desire to exchange with serious researchers. Instead I am attacked when I just post text.....when I post a video..... crickets..... Don't throw demands in my direction. I don't owe anyone anything, and will present information when I feel like it and not a second sooner. There are one or two among you who can kiss my ass, seriously! Those folk please refrain from mentioning my name in your posts, don't give me props, don't ask for my assistance, we aren't friends!

I don't like being told that my machines don't do what I say they do, the few who have made false statements are ignorant f***s, there is no cure! My machines were designed for a very specific purpose, and perform exactly as I say they should. Demonstrations of what they can do aside from generating squared waves and oscillations will follow in the future....maybe....

In the link you will find a vague video demonstration of the effect you all want, acceleration under load. This time around, I show you that it can be done using one low resistance, low inductance coil operating at low frequency. You didn't listen to me the last time, when I posted a video of a two coil axial setup demonstrating the exact same thing, I doubt you will pay attention this time around either.

IF this is all you are looking for....heaven help you, acceleration under load is not the solution, not even close. The effect is a teaching instrument, you are supposed to be learning something, to find out what that is, I recommend you stop copying and pasting and start formulating and asking the proper questions.

https://vimeo.com/151417537


Regards
I remember us discussing this a few years ago and the increased current draw
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-12-2016, 09:10 AM
Turion's Avatar
Turion Turion is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,551
Information

erfinder,

The entire purpose of this thread was to come to an understanding of exactly what it takes to make a device speed up under load so that we can ALL build such devices. I would agree that that isn't all we need know, but for many folks, it is a beginning and the first step in the right direction. The sooner we understand how to make EVERY coil speed up under load, the better off we ALL are

I have devices that will speed up under load with a single coil, and it has nothing to do with the proximity of the coil to the rotor as you showed in your example. My coils are right NEXT to the rotor. The topology is completely different from your example. I know for a fact there is more than ONE way to skin this cat. Or at least a cat that looks an awful lot LIKE this one.

I have no trouble making a generating device with coils that speed up under load. There are at least four different coils I have wound that will speed up under load. Three of them have ONE thing in common, so I thought I had it figured out, they were all sub ohm, but the 4th was not. I ran different sized rotors with different numbers of magnets and they still sped up. Back to the drawing board. All these coils were conventional coils placed as closely as possible to a N/S rotor and/or a N/N rotor. Two of the sub ohm coils were iron core and one was air core. It isn't the HOW of making a coil speed up under load. I know HOW to wind one that will do that. (Just wind coils that are the same as any of the four I already have.) It's the WHY it speeds up under load I am interested in. If it isn't topology, it is something else. I noticed your coil was also sub ohm. Is it the topology, or is it that the coil was sub ohm? That's information you have and I do not.

Dave
__________________
"I aim to misbehave" Malcolm Reynolds
"Try Not! Do or do not. There is no 'Try' ". Yoda
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-12-2016, 12:38 PM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,638
Quote:
Originally Posted by erfinder View Post
Has it really been that long? I am sure you can appreciate the similarities between what I am demonstrating here and your own work. Are you still working on the Lockridge?

In a properly designed system, consumption increase is part of the feedback and gain mechanism. In such a system, consumption must increase. The increase results in a stronger motor, higher generator action, higher recovery, higher self and when applicable, mutual induction.


Regards
Yes it has. Yes there are similarities and yes i am although I dont think what I have done is relevant in this thread, its done differently: hence my silence.

i agree with your analysis.

@Turion I didnt use the method Erfinder used to cause acceleration under load, and I dont want to take this thread off at a tangent so I wont discuss it here. I do want to learn about what other methods have been used so I'm all ears.

If you are interested in my method I will explain it in another thread, although I have posted about it many times.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-12-2016, 01:03 PM
Turion's Avatar
Turion Turion is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,551
mbrown

As long as we are talking about how a coil speeds up under load, I don't see how posting your experience is a tangent. I think the idea here is to see what folks are doing, and what common ground we can find. It would be great if we could put together a chart that showed that if you are using #18 wire you need to have X number of strands X number of feet long, and possibly x distance from the rotor and your coil will speed up under load, and possibly a multiple of that number (strands and or length) if you want multiples in voltage or amps. Imagine how valuable that would be to people.

And we need to see that WITH that speed up in load there is a decrease in the amp draw used to run the device in the motoring phase.
__________________
"I aim to misbehave" Malcolm Reynolds
"Try Not! Do or do not. There is no 'Try' ". Yoda
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 01-12-2016, 02:38 PM
Turion's Avatar
Turion Turion is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,551
???

I'm trying to understand why you think drawing less amps is a bad thing? I have seen speed up under load WITH lower amp draw so I know it is possible. Is there a reason I don't understand why I should WANT greater amp draw? I have an open mind to almost anything, and I am trying to understand, but you make statements like that with no explanation, and it is hard for me to understand. You may not particularly CARE whether I understand or not, but I thought we were all in this together.

I saw where you stated "In such a system, consumption must increase. The increase results in a stronger motor, higher generator action, higher recovery, higher self and when applicable, mutual induction." so I understand you believe there are positives, but I have not seen that with the systems I have built EXCEPT with the 3BGS, where a load across the battery was balanced with the load on the motor. It increased the motor speed and therefore the generating power.

To edit this, let me say I don't care if the motor speeds up, slows down, increases amp draw or the amp draw goes down. What I want is the MOST efficient production of usable power possible. If the amps go UP but the power production ALSO goes up, then that can be a good thing. It can also be a BAD thing if the power production did not go up enough in relation to the increase in power consumption.
Dave
__________________
"I aim to misbehave" Malcolm Reynolds
"Try Not! Do or do not. There is no 'Try' ". Yoda

Last edited by Turion; 01-12-2016 at 03:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-12-2016, 06:39 PM
barbosi barbosi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
Is there a reason I don't understand why I should WANT greater amp draw?
If you were a farmer you would understand the capitalist version from "you have two cows" joke series:
Quote:
You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull.
And if you want increased milk production you would feed both animals more. All you would have to do is to work more to ensure you have enough for the cold season too.



Or if you prefer a different approach - more scientific one, you could talk to specialists and here is what you would need:
Quote:
Milk production at a dairy farm was low, so the farmer wrote to the local university, asking for help from academia. A multidisciplinary team of professors was assembled, headed by a theoretical physicist, and two weeks of intensive on-site investigation took place. The scholars then returned to the university, notebooks crammed with data, where the task of writing the report was left to the team leader. Shortly thereafter the physicist returned to the farm, saying to the farmer, "I have the solution, but it only works in the case of spherical cows in a vacuum".
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01-12-2016, 07:34 PM
Turion's Avatar
Turion Turion is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,551
Quote:
Originally Posted by barbosi View Post
You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull.
And if the bull is in the field and the cow is in the barn all you end up with is twice the cow poop and two frustrated animals.

To just say we need bigger amp draw to get a positive result without explaining to people HOW to use that amp draw to get bigger results, you're gonna end up with the exact same pile of poop. Oh AND frustrated animals.

Dave
__________________
"I aim to misbehave" Malcolm Reynolds
"Try Not! Do or do not. There is no 'Try' ". Yoda
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 01-12-2016, 08:11 PM
Turion's Avatar
Turion Turion is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,551
Poop theory

The more of the right kinds of foods you eat, the less you poop.

Americans eat so much of the bad kinds of food, we have a poop problem. If we keep increasing the population and eating the wrong kinds of foods, poop will take over the world. Mark my words. Eventually we will have poop free zones. Probably a poop tax. They tax everything else! Oh Poop! I shouldn't have said that! I probably just gave them the idea!

Dave
__________________
"I aim to misbehave" Malcolm Reynolds
"Try Not! Do or do not. There is no 'Try' ". Yoda

Last edited by Turion; 01-12-2016 at 09:10 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 01-13-2016, 01:29 AM
Dog-One's Avatar
Dog-One Dog-One is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrionLightShip View Post
Quote from JLN labs: When the LOAD IS CONNECTED the RPM speed is DOUBLED and the INPUT POWER DROPS dramatically.
In that statement is your answer. Seems to me the device has achieved a point in which it is powering itself. Why else would input power drop...?

Recall Jim Murray talking about how motors are also generators; generators are also motors.

Hmmm, so if internally the generator portion of the device begins to produce more power, then the motor gets more power to motor with. If this situation isn't governed, the device RPM will continue to increase until it grenades itself. That's a problem I wouldn't mind having. But what we see in most devices is for some reason they govern themselves--shaft speed stabilizes as well as input power. Back to the generator portion becoming a motor and the motor portion becoming a generator. That's not what we are after. We need each section of the device to remain only doing its needed task and not switching roles like when a load is applied or shaft speed changes. This is were geometry becomes key.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 01-13-2016, 01:44 AM
Turion's Avatar
Turion Turion is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,551
Circuit

Or we need very fast switching and the right timing.
__________________
"I aim to misbehave" Malcolm Reynolds
"Try Not! Do or do not. There is no 'Try' ". Yoda
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #22  
Old 01-13-2016, 03:47 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,638
Calm down guys and Ill tell you how i did it the first time. but first you have to stop thinking about it being a motor. Think of it as a transformer.

I took two of the field winding's and shoes out of a 4 pole universal type motor, leaving just two set at 90 degrees from each other.

The armature was standard but i did relocate the brushes making the armature run on only two of the brushes. These brushes were set at 180 degrees from each other.

I wired the motor so that the armature and field coil were in attraction, theoretically the motor should not turn but it did. So why is this?

The magnetic field created by the armature and powered field coil returned through the shoe mounted at 90 degrees to the powered field coil. This causes the flux to be bent sharply around the armature winding thus pushing this winding towards the powered field coil.

As the motor turns, little or no BEMF is generated in the powered field coil; however a significant EMF is generated in the unpowered field coil. This is the same no matter if the motor is powered with DC or AC. The DC operation i have posted in this thread Interesting Motor

If we use pulsed DC or AC as the supply we have a varying magnetic field created in the powered field coil and the armature. As these winding's are set up in attraction, they act as a single primary winding of a transformer. The winding on the other shoe set at 90 degrees, acts not only as a generator winding but as the secondary of a transformer.

Just as in a transformer, when you place a load on the secondary winding, the inductance of the primary lowers and allows more current to flow. As more current flows a greater magnitude of field is created and the motor speeds up.

This results in greater generation and greater induction (transformer action)

The lowering of the inductance allows the greater current and the greater current causes an increased speed. Its that simple. Acceleration under load thus caused more current to be drawn.

To reduce the current drawn while maintaining or increasing the current in the powered field coil and armature requires that the output of the generator coil is passed through the motor windings, but there are phase issues to be sorted here, Its a work in progress. Also think trifilar coil in the Lockridge device.

Any questions
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 01-13-2016, 04:13 AM
barbosi barbosi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 270
Acceleration under the load

Quote:
Originally Posted by erfinder View Post
IF this is all you are looking for....heaven help you, acceleration under load is not the solution, not even close. The effect is a teaching instrument, you are supposed to be learning something, to find out what that is, I recommend you stop copying and pasting and start formulating and asking the proper questions.
So the issue of acceleration under the load has been demonstrated as real. Naudin was replicated by others and shown on youtube. After that, no progress followed.

Erfinder has demonstrated another method and my guess here is that what he really wanted was to brake the spellbound of this wish.

First thing that struck me was that regardless the method used, after the acceleration the rotor stabilized after the acceleration. While many will say "pffff yeah, hello..ooo, that's normal", to me is the proof that we only changed the parameters of where Lenz law operates.

My feeling is that Erfinder tried to warn us that we are mesmerized like the deers at night in front of the headlights.

And yet we are b!tching about who saw a better contestant at a pissing contest.
Or even better suggesting:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
Or we need very fast switching and the right timing.
Like we really stand a chance with slow switching at the wrong time.

Erfinder invited to ask serious questions and in return he gets silly solutions.
Seriously? I'm out!
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 01-13-2016, 04:34 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,638
Read my post,

A lot of the videos i have seen could be a simple transformer action. Shorting a secondary allows current to flow in it thus lowering the inductance of the primary. What tells you this is happening is an increase in current draw.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 01-13-2016, 05:41 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,638
Acceleration under load tells you that you have transformer actions taking place in my case. If there is something going on with lenz on other peoples work i would like to see and understand it.

I could have made claims about lenz or other things which people would have bought because they want to, but for me its a simple transformer action taking place.

There is more to this but i will wait to see if anyone asks the question.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 01-13-2016, 07:07 AM
Dog-One's Avatar
Dog-One Dog-One is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbrownn View Post

There is more to this but i will wait to see if anyone asks the question.

Transformer action is a good expression of this phenomena--works for me.


Phasing issues I totally get as do I understand Lenz. To me this is nothing more than the motoring action or rotational force going the wrong way at some point in the rotation. My feeling is this can be overcome because we have a terrific little device that will oppose the flow of current for a deterministic amount of time--an inductor. With the proper delay added, it should be quite possible to adjust when the motor needs to push and when it needs to freewheel. My thinking here is this inductor needs to be dynamic, because as the RPM increases, so does the frequency, consequently the delay needed shortens. But while we are introducing a delay, we can certainly store some energy in a capacitor until it is time to be released.

Kind of thinking out loud here, so jump in and steer this boat a little.
__________________
 

Last edited by Dog-One; 01-13-2016 at 07:13 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 01-13-2016, 08:10 AM
Cornboy 555's Avatar
Cornboy 555 Cornboy 555 is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 803
Quote:
Originally Posted by erfinder View Post
What's with you people and poop....

Well Erfinder, if you don't **** you die, but there is a balance between, the right food substances, and defecating to your most perfect metabolism, just don't drag it along on your own till you expire.

Warmest regards Cornboy.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 01-13-2016, 08:17 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,638
Quote:
Originally Posted by erfinder View Post
And the man with a mind of his own understands! He does not ask for the answer to be shoved by the spoon full down his throat, he thinks for himself.

Mike, you are on its heals boss. However, if I may make a suggestion, do not limit this to simple transformer action, its not. Understand how self-induction and mutual induction (from a layman perspective) are the mediators of the effects we desire.

The 90 relation is the corner stone of all of our efforts. The fathers of science whose names are associated with the laws which govern how we perceive the forces operating in the devices we build, also govern our thoughts (some anyway). These individuals presented us with a challenge, they gave us a 90 relation which is leads to no where, but at the same time suggested that the same relation was our salvation.

I generally don't agree with anyone's methods, as I feel most make things more complex than they need to be, or I feel the presenter fails to appreciate the symbiotic relation that motoring and generating have with one another. Mike, in your case, you require two poles to establish the same conditions that I establish in one. You also have a magnetic circuit which I "intentionally" left out of my system so as to illustrate that it is not required for generating the desired effect. You are the first outside of my little circle of two or three to comprehend the value of transformer action amplified via parameter variation. Unfortunately you still aren't seeing it as you could, if you were your design would be radically different than it is now. I do appreciate that you are building a very special device, one which has had to be built from scratch. I sincerely applaud your effort.

Turion,

I only mention this because Mike used the right terms, he provided you with the triad....
  • 90 shift
  • transformer action (as it applies to self and mutual induction)
  • parameter variation

Had he not mentioned these three, I wouldn't have made this post.

Transformer action through self and when applicable mutual induction, allow you to profit from consumption increase. The concepts being discussed are not designed so as to take advantage of transformer action. This includes the device that I presented! The purpose of my demonstration was to familiarize you with "the" simplest phase shift mechanism I have yet to encounter. Phase shifting is what acceleration under load is about. The sooner you all recognize that the better. If and when you do, you will be brought face to face with the harsh reality that, although there are many ways to use a toilet brush, only one way is, and I am certain you will agree, "the" way to use it.





Instead of seeing what I brought to the table for what it is, you engage in unnecessary comparisons....(unnecessary from my perspective....). Instead of you being open like you say you are, you tighten your grip on your acceleration under load successes and failures, and begin b*****ing at me because I can't convince you of the significance of my stance on the significance of consumption increase. One, consumption increase doesn't apply to "your" generation concept, and two, I am not here to convince you.

In my presentation I reveal the simplest means I have yet to encounter for producing the desired 90 shift. I date the effect back to the man who is an inspiration to all of us. Instead of it being seen for what it is, its played down, made secondary to what I feel justified in calling mediocre attempts.

People want you to spell s**t out for them, and that's not right. We must come to the same or similar conclusions via our own efforts, and not through coercion.

I don't want you to let go of your hopes and dreams of acceleration, I want you to see that you are trading one way of getting stuck for another. It's clear that your machines only accelerate up to a new plateau right? You think that's a good thing? If so, stay there!

Me personally, I want the machine to tear itself apart when the phase shift takes place, and the supply to burn to the ground as the device demands more and more current as the device accelerates towards self destruction. What makes this possible? Phase shifting from parallel to series resonance.

Acceleration under load as you people contemplate and discuss it is a dead end, and you know it, but for whatever reason, you have chosen to captain that sinking ship. To each his own.


Regards
Thanks for the kind words. Like I said before its over 2 years since we were having this conversation, maybe 3.

There is a lot more going on in my device than this simple action, much of which I dont fully understand yet, but some I do.

The acceleration under load is not the goal in itself, but occurs when you have the parts doing the right thing. It costs more current so isnt a gain but it does self compensate by giving more generation to some extent and isnt a loss either.

Yes I have effectively 2 poles and a closed magnetic circuit but that is to maximize these transformer actions, It may also solve the phasing issues i have, Remember when you suggested the Magamp

As usual the terms you use leave me behind so I will have to study some more to get there.

Another researcher who has been replicating what I did and also trying his own ideas worries about the huge currents that we have, It does try to tear itself apart This is because we dont have any controls on it as yet. Whats the controls? pulses, on time and off time as well as frequency, and its self regulating with no electronics.

I suspect as usual I am heading in a different direction to yourself, but i do get tunnel vision I love the toilet brush analogy
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 01-13-2016, 08:26 AM
Cornboy 555's Avatar
Cornboy 555 Cornboy 555 is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 803
Quote:
Originally Posted by erfinder View Post
And the man with a mind of his own understands! He does not ask for the answer to be shoved by the spoon full down his throat, he thinks for himself.

Mike, you are on its heals boss. However, if I may make a suggestion, do not limit this to simple transformer action, its not. Understand how self-induction and mutual induction (from a layman perspective) are the mediators of the effects we desire.

The 90 relation is the corner stone of all of our efforts. The fathers of science whose names are associated with the laws which govern how we perceive the forces operating in the devices we build, also govern our thoughts (some anyway). These individuals presented us with a challenge, they gave us a 90 relation which is leads to no where, but at the same time suggested that the same relation was our salvation.

I generally don't agree with anyone's methods, as I feel most make things more complex than they need to be, or I feel the presenter fails to appreciate the symbiotic relation that motoring and generating have with one another. Mike, in your case, you require two poles to establish the same conditions that I establish in one. You also have a magnetic circuit which I "intentionally" left out of my system so as to illustrate that it is not required for generating the desired effect. You are the first outside of my little circle of two or three to comprehend the value of transformer action amplified via parameter variation. Unfortunately you still aren't seeing it as you could, if you were your design would be radically different than it is now. I do appreciate that you are building a very special device, one which has had to be built from scratch. I sincerely applaud your effort.

Turion,

I only mention this because Mike used the right terms, he provided you with the triad....
  • 90 shift
  • transformer action (as it applies to self and mutual induction)
  • parameter variation

Had he not mentioned these three, I wouldn't have made this post.

Transformer action through self and when applicable mutual induction, allow you to profit from consumption increase. The concepts being discussed are not designed so as to take advantage of transformer action. This includes the device that I presented! The purpose of my demonstration was to familiarize you with "the" simplest phase shift mechanism I have yet to encounter. Phase shifting is what acceleration under load is about. The sooner you all recognize that the better. If and when you do, you will be brought face to face with the harsh reality that, although there are many ways to use a toilet brush, only one way is, and I am certain you will agree, "the" way to use it.





Instead of seeing what I brought to the table for what it is, you engage in unnecessary comparisons....(unnecessary from my perspective....). Instead of you being open like you say you are, you tighten your grip on your acceleration under load successes and failures, and begin b*****ing at me because I can't convince you of the significance of my stance on the significance of consumption increase. One, consumption increase doesn't apply to "your" generation concept, and two, I am not here to convince you.

In my presentation I reveal the simplest means I have yet to encounter for producing the desired 90 shift. I date the effect back to the man who is an inspiration to all of us. Instead of it being seen for what it is, its played down, made secondary to what I feel justified in calling mediocre attempts.

People want you to spell s**t out for them, and that's not right. We must come to the same or similar conclusions via our own efforts, and not through coercion.

I don't want you to let go of your hopes and dreams of acceleration, I want you to see that you are trading one way of getting stuck for another. It's clear that your machines only accelerate up to a new plateau right? You think that's a good thing? If so, stay there!

Me personally, I want the machine to tear itself apart when the phase shift takes place, and the supply to burn to the ground as the device demands more and more current as the device accelerates towards self destruction. What makes this possible? Phase shifting from parallel to series resonance.

Acceleration under load as you people contemplate and discuss it is a dead end, and you know it, but for whatever reason, you have chosen to captain that sinking ship. To each his own.


Regards

Opps, Erfinder, i posted without reading the latest post from you, sorry, my excuse is beautiful red grapes fermented.

Heaps of current IN, and extremes of current out, is very awesome.

Best regards Cornboy.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 01-13-2016, 09:28 AM
Cornboy 555's Avatar
Cornboy 555 Cornboy 555 is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 803
Quote:
Originally Posted by erfinder View Post
At this point it is simply about recognizing that "the ideal generator" is one with it's prime mover. Today we call them motors, that is not what they are.

Current flowing in the generator in such a system produces conditions which can be reflected back to the prime mover. There are two ways to see this, the returning wave can cancel the input, this is what most want for obvious reasons, unfortunately the gain is zero, OR the returning wave can augment the applied, this is what I want, augmentation. The immediate benefit to augmentation is amplification of recovery. The present belief is that recovery is dictated by specific coil parameters. This is true, however, only under those circumstances where the induced is both lower than, and operating in opposition to the applied. This means recovery is in reality governed by the induced.

To increase the efficiency beyond the limits established by our limited perspective, we need to simply invert the CEMF, once inverted raise it!

Most reading this might see it as a tangent....that would be a mistake.


Regards
Thanks Erfinder, for such a non confronting reply, please show by diagram, or circuit diagram, what you refer to?.

Please let's invert the CEMF, through you're instructions, and raise it to the Max.


I and many others here,i am sure, feel you have a huge amount to give freely, and share, please do so.

I for 1, will replicate and verify.

Warmest Regards Cornboy.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
coils, load, speed, coil, magnets, motor, iron, rotor, impedance, cores, things, made, shaped, high, pump, core, share, ran, rotors, generator, make, thought, speeding, prototype, folks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Please consider supporting Energetic Forum with a voluntary monthly subscription.

For One-Time Donations, use admin@ this domain > energeticforum.com

Choose your voluntary subscription

All times are GMT. The time now is 04:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v1.4.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Shoutbox provided by vBShout v6.2.8 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
2007-2015 Copyright - Energetic Forum - All Rights Reserved

Bedini RPX Sideband Generator

Tesla Chargers