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 Renewable Energy Discussion on various alternative energy, renewable energy, & free energy technologies. Also any discussion about the environment, global warming, and other related topics are welcome here.

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#181
02-04-2016, 02:42 AM
 tachyoncatcher Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Counterspace Posts: 414
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Turion Great, now that we've settled all THAT nonsense, let's get back to work. Faraday's law says: Any change in the magnetic environment of a coil of wire will cause a voltage (emf) to be "induced" in the coil. No matter how the change is produced, the voltage will be generated. The change could be produced by changing the magnetic field strength, moving a magnet toward or away from the coil, moving the coil into or out of the magnetic field, rotating the coil relative to the magnet, etc. Questions for you....WHAT determines how much voltage (emf) to be "induced" in the coil???? I will go out on a limb here and say strength of the magnetic field and number of turns of wire on the coil. BUT Let's have a DISCUSSION about what we are SEEING on our benches, not what we have read in books. I climb out on the limb to give us a place to start that discussion, not so some idiot will come along and attempt to saw the limb off. How are we changing the magnetic environment of the coil in the devices we are working on currently??? Here I would say that most of us are using a rotor with some kind of magnet on it to pass near a coil and induce (not CHANGE, which is all that is required, but INDUCE) the magnetic field. Would I be wrong to assume that? If so, are we not PAYING a price to MOVE that magnetic device (for lack of a better term) into and out of the area where it will react with the coil? In other words, isn't there a COST to spin that rotor? Do we need to PAY that cost? Now using magnetic neutralization can significantly reduce that cost, but it does not eliminate it. It will probably get us to COP>3, but not much beyond. When you add recovery circuits, you REALLY get up there in what your system can produce, but I am greedy, so I always want more. Why do we HAVE to spin a rotor to induce a change in the magnetic environment of the coil. Just asking. I have several thoughts on this matter, but I wanted to hear what YOU folks think. And here is a very, very, VERY (I would type it more times, but I hope you get how important this question is) point. Is the amount of electricity produced by the coil in direct relation to the magnetic field induced in the coil or the CHANGE in magnetic field in the coil. They can be very different things, can they not? Dave
Dave,
With that question you now enter the realm of Floyd Sweet. No motion, but great magnetic change. Too bad no one can figure out the knowledge he took to his grave.
Cheers,
Randy
Randy
__________________

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#182
02-04-2016, 04:43 AM
 Turion Gold Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 2,387
Randy,
I'm pretty sure we have some folks here who are as smart as Floyd Sweet was, but are working in different areas.

If I charge a coil that has an iron core of coiled wire around a solid piece of iron, that iron wire becomes an electromagnet, but there is also voltage induced in it because of the voltage in the main coil. The main coil is shut off and BOTH coils collapse. Then if the iron core was wound on a solid iron center, some voltage will be induced in it by the passing of the rotor magnet as well as in the main coil. Then the main coil is charged in the opposite direction, creating an electromagnet of the iron core but also inducing voltage in it because it had that solid iron core. So I get 6 events instead of just 3. Whether the output of these six strange events is greater than the original three, I do not know. Bench time required.

That's what I am looking at with rotary motion. For motionless, have you ever looked at the Permanent magnet holder of Edward Leedskalnin? If you charge two coils correctly with HIGH voltage you have continuous magnetic flux tha travels in a circle. Now according to Faraday, all you need to induce voltage is placing a coil in a field of CHanging magnetic flux. So in your circular path, you have two alternating routes. One goes through an iron wound coil in the center of your coil and the other bypasses the coil entirely. As long as there is a path the magnetic flux is maintained, but when the power coil is bypassed, it's magnetic field is altered, producing power. Or so the "Law" states. Continuous magnetic flux in a circle like with the PMH, but alternative paths that run through or bypass the power coil. Look at the self oscillating switches that folks like Bob have built that already could switch this for no power input.
__________________
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"Try Not! Do or do not. There is no 'Try' ". Yoda

Last edited by Turion; 02-04-2016 at 05:03 AM.
#183
02-04-2016, 06:36 AM
 gotoluc Gold Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,276
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Turion That's what I am looking at with rotary motion. For motionless, have you ever looked at the Permanent magnet holder of Edward Leedskalnin? If you charge two coils correctly with HIGH voltage you have continuous magnetic flux tha travels in a circle. Now according to Faraday, all you need to induce voltage is placing a coil in a field of CHanging magnetic flux. So in your circular path, you have two alternating routes. One goes through an iron wound coil in the center of your coil and the other bypasses the coil entirely. As long as there is a path the magnetic flux is maintained, but when the power coil is bypassed, it's magnetic field is altered, producing power. Or so the "Law" states. Continuous magnetic flux in a circle like with the PMH, but alternative paths that run through or bypass the power coil. Look at the self oscillating switches that folks like Bob have built that already could switch this for no power input.
Dear Dave and all researchers.

As I have taken the time to demonstrate that AUL (acceleration under load) is an effect caused by inferior core material. Please allow me to direct your attention to a researcher that has also taken much time in demonstrating the true results when using quality tape cores compared to transformer laminations. Please don't forget that using steel bars, bolts and welding rods will give you effects like "Permanent magnet holder of Edward Leedskalnin" which again is caused by magnetizing steel (hysteresis) and if you add a keeper it will stay magnetized for years. Remove the keeper quickly and you will induce the cores magnetic flux back in the coils which can light an LED.
All this is misunderstanding and it is time to clear the air and move on.

Just trying to help here and I hope you find these video demos enlightening.

Luc

Part 1

Part 2
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#184
02-04-2016, 05:22 PM
 Allen Burgess Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 2,173
Core saturation.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by gotoluc Dear Dave and all researchers. As I have taken the time to demonstrate that AUL (acceleration under load) is an effect caused by inferior core material. Please allow me to direct your attention to a researcher that has also taken much time in demonstrating the true results when using quality tape cores compared to transformer laminations. Please don't forget that using steel bars, bolts and welding rods will give you effects like "Permanent magnet holder of Edward Leedskalnin" which again is caused by magnetizing steel (hysteresis) and if you add a keeper it will stay magnetized for years. Remove the keeper quickly and you will induce the cores magnetic flux back in the coils which can light an LED. All this is misunderstanding and it is time to clear the air and move on. Just trying to help here and I hope you find these video demos enlightening. Luc Part 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHbQXnXK6Xc Part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsN2sr3U0PY
@Gotoluc,

Have you found time to consider my idea of adding an electro-magnetic coil to the core to regulate saturation? Imagine the effect opening and closing this seperate core coil might have on AUL.
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Last edited by Allen Burgess; 02-04-2016 at 05:27 PM.
#185
02-04-2016, 05:51 PM
 citfta Gold Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,321
Good videos!

Thanks for the videos Luc. They are very interesting. I appreciate your efforts to try and educate us about the importance of the core material.

Carroll
__________________
Just because someone disagrees with you does NOT make them your enemy. We can disagree without attacking someone. This means YOU especially BroMikey.
#186
02-04-2016, 07:35 PM
 OrionLightShip Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 414
delà excellance

hope I got the translation right!

Nice work Luc.
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#187
02-04-2016, 07:37 PM
 mikrovolt Silver Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 788
Magnetize the core wound with metglass ribbon.
Push the rotor and capture the flux in a capacitor in less than 11 mSec.
Design the core and rotor geometry going for least iron loss.
Thanks Luc
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#188
02-04-2016, 07:53 PM
 gotoluc Gold Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,276
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Allen Burgess @Gotoluc, Have you found time to consider my idea of adding an electro-magnetic coil to the core to regulate saturation? Imagine the effect opening and closing this seperate core coil might have on AUL.
@ Allen Burgess

Pre-saturation of a core has a value for certain applications and should always be considered.

However, as I have demonstrated, AUL is not a useful effect and is caused by either one of two conditions; inferior cores material or a high impedance coil at higher then normal generator frequencies (rpm) with its output voltage clamped down many times over.
Important information to note: In the second case (high impedance coil) you can test if you've reached this state. Just increase or lower the frequency (RPM) of your prime mover and if the coil still delivers the same power to your load, then your coil is in this state and wasting power as it's reflecting flux it can't deliver to the load back to the prime mover which is causing AUL.

Understand these effects and stop being fooled.

If someone can achieve AUL with quality cores with a low impedance coil please share as that would be refreshing to observe.

Luc
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#189
02-04-2016, 08:10 PM
 gotoluc Gold Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,276
Quote:
 Originally Posted by citfta Thanks for the videos Luc. They are very interesting. I appreciate your efforts to try and educate us about the importance of the core material. Carroll
Quote:
 Originally Posted by OrionLightShip delà excellance hope I got the translation right! Nice work Luc.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by mikrovolt Magnetize the core wound with metglass ribbon. Push the rotor and capture the flux in a capacitor in less than 11 mSec. Design the core and rotor geometry going for least iron loss. Thanks Luc
Thanks guys,

It's refreshing to get some appreciation.

Here is a video demo to update my recent build which should be fired up today.

Luc
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#190
02-04-2016, 10:55 PM
 Allen Burgess Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 2,173
Aul

Quote:
 Originally Posted by gotoluc @ Allen Burgess Pre-saturation of a core has a value for certain applications and should always be considered. However, as I have demonstrated, AUL is not a useful effect and is caused by either one of two conditions; inferior cores material or a high impedance coil at higher then normal generator frequencies (rpm) with its output voltage clamped down many times over. Important information to note: In the second case (high impedance coil) you can test if you've reached this state. Just increase or lower the frequency (RPM) of your prime mover and if the coil still delivers the same power to your load, then your coil is in this state and wasting power as it's reflecting flux it can't deliver to the load back to the prime mover which is causing AUL. Understand these effects and stop being fooled. If someone can achieve AUL with quality cores with a low impedance coil please share as that would be refreshing to observe. Luc
@Gotoluc,

That's what MarkE and Milehigh maintained the entire time. That confirms Thane's just been on a treadmill with it all the while.
__________________

Last edited by Allen Burgess; 02-04-2016 at 11:00 PM.
#191
02-05-2016, 10:43 PM
 wantomake Silver Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 905
trifilar coil calculator

Does anyone know a website for calculation of a trifilar coil to find induction? This website shows how to find induction of a single or multilayer wound coil.

Coil Inductance Calculator - 66pacific.com

If any help would be great.
wantomake
__________________

Last edited by wantomake; 02-05-2016 at 10:46 PM.
#192
02-06-2016, 12:03 AM
 Matthew Jones Platinum Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 2,741
Quote:
 Originally Posted by wantomake Does anyone know a website for calculation of a trifilar coil to find induction? This website shows how to find induction of a single or multilayer wound coil. Coil Inductance Calculator - 66pacific.com If any help would be great. wantomake
Good luck, thats pretty much manual math. Look for calculation for an inductor that does multi voltage flyback.

Matt
__________________
ADD BROMIKEY TO YOUR IGNORE LIST He is a saboteur bent on the systematic distraction of every good topic on this forum and since he has been here most working threads have shut down. He is the enemy. If you have blocked him already add this to your signature and encourage others to block him as well. His onslaught of rambling in large text and his constant attempts to misinform at the excuse of being stupid should no longer be tolerated.

USER CP/Ignore list.
#193
02-06-2016, 05:21 AM
 wantomake Silver Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 905
hummmmm

Thanks Matt,
I will give it a Google or two.

wantomake
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#194
02-07-2016, 11:29 AM
 gyula Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 820
Quote:
 Originally Posted by wantomake Does anyone know a website for calculation of a trifilar coil to find induction? This website shows how to find induction of a single or multilayer wound coil. Coil Inductance Calculator - 66pacific.com If any help would be great. wantomake
Hi wantomake,

I am afraid you will not find such specific software. The reason is that due to the close magnetic coupling a trifilar coil has 9 times the inductance because the number of turns is 3 times as many than in the "singlefilar" case. Of course here I assume you connect the three windings in series aiding phase, (the same current flows in them in the same direction). Similarly, a bifilar coil has 4 times the inductance when the two constituting windings are in close magnetic coupling and connected in series aiding phase.
These results also come from the normal inductance formula in which you can find the L inductance depends quadratically on the number of turns. I tested this in practice (years ago) and found indeed that for a bifilar coil the series aiding connection of the two windings resulted in 3.8 times higher inductance compared to the inductance of any one of the two windings. The small discrepency (3.8 vs the theoretical 4) may come from the not 100% perfect magnetic coupling and from a small increase in the self capacitance of the bifilar arrangement (capacitive reactance reduces inductive one).

I find this coil calculator also good and versatile and free
http://coil32.net/multi-layer-coil.html

Gyula
__________________

Last edited by gyula; 02-07-2016 at 11:42 AM. Reason: spelling
#195
02-07-2016, 08:03 PM
 BroMikey Platinum Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 5,982
Quote:
 Originally Posted by gyula Hi wantomake, I am afraid you will not find such specific software. The reason is that due to the close magnetic coupling a trifilar coil has 9 times the inductance because the number of turns is 3 times as many than in the "singlefilar" case. Of course here I assume you connect the three windings in series aiding phase, (the same current flows in them in the same direction). Similarly, a bifilar coil has 4 times the inductance when the two constituting windings are in close magnetic coupling and connected in series aiding phase. These results also come from the normal inductance formula in which you can find the L inductance depends quadratically on the number of turns. I tested this in practice (years ago) and found indeed that for a bifilar coil the series aiding connection of the two windings resulted in 3.8 times higher inductance compared to the inductance of any one of the two windings. The small discrepency (3.8 vs the theoretical 4) may come from the not 100% perfect magnetic coupling and from a small increase in the self capacitance of the bifilar arrangement (capacitive reactance reduces inductive one). I find this coil calculator also good and versatile and free http://coil32.net/multi-layer-coil.html Gyula
Hello Gyula

In your studies with the Bifilar coils inductance maybe you also slightly
twist the 2 bifilar conductors like we were instructed with the SSG?
I would be interested to know if measurements
for twisted bifilar vs just putting conductor side by side without
twisting them.
This reference takes away some confusion on which winding
pattern you suggest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bifilar_coil

Bifilar coil configurations

parallel-wound, series connected
parallel-wound, parallel connected
counter-wound (series)
counter-wound (parallel)

Depending on which arrangement selected seems like a new
value of self inductance and self capacitance is reached but
I have never done these tests.

__________________

Last edited by BroMikey; 02-08-2016 at 09:58 PM.
#196
02-08-2016, 10:05 PM
 gyula Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 820
Quote:
 Originally Posted by BroMikey In your studies with the Bifilar coils inductance did you also slightly twist the 2 bifilar conductors like we were instructed with the SSG? I would be interested to know if your measurements (if you did that experiment) showed more or less inductance for twisted bifilar vs just putting conductor side by side without twisting them. ....
Hi BroMikey,

Well, I mostly twisted the wires for building transmission line transformers back then and never compared inductances with bifilar coils where the wires were guided side by side without any twist.

Just out of curiosity, I have built a single layer, air cored bifilar coil from enamelled copper wires putting them side by side (no twist) on a 3 cm OD paper bobbin, wire length was 2 x 210 cm from wire OD=1 mm (AWG 18), it gave 21 turns. See attached picture 1.
Measured inductance between Start 1 and End 1 is 8 uH and also 8 uH between Start 2 and End 2.
Measured inductance between Start 1 and End 2 (the two windings were connected in series aiding phase) was 30 uH.
The ratio is 30 uH/8 uH= 3.75 this is close to 4.
Measured capacitance is 270 pF between either Sart 1 and Start 2 or between End 1 and End 2, (the not being measured wires were freely floating, of course).

Then I unwound this coil and twisted the same two wires, roughly by 2 twists per inch and rewound it onto the same bobbin, to have 21 turns again. See attached picture 2.
The measured capacitance was only 230 pF between Start 1 and Start 2 or between End 1 and End 2. But this smaller capacitance versus the above case stands to reason because the angled wires could not have as many facing surfaces as they had in the side by side, very close guided to each other case.
The received inductance between Start 1 and End 1 was again 8 uH as was also between Start 2 and End 2. Likewise, the measured inductance was 30 uH between Start 1 and End 2 (winding were in series aiding phase).

IF somebody has confusion what a bifilarly wound coil connected in series aiding phase means, well it means that the end of the first wire is connected to the start of the second wire if you label the starts of the two parallel guided wires as start 1 and 2 and you label the ends of the two wires as end 1 and end 2. This means also that you have to prepare in advance two wires of appropiate length from two different rolls and always guide them in parallel while making the bifilar coil. (Of course you can cut twice the needed length of wire from one wire roll too and then guide the wires also in parallel while winding.)

The series aiding phase connection is the same you show in the above picture.

So the answer to your question is that with this single layer air core bifilar coil there is no difference in inductance between a twisted and the side by side guided (not twisted) winding styles. IT is possible that for a multilayer bifilar coil the twisting introduces some change in inductance because the capacitance between the twisted wires will be different from that of the side by side wires. The capacitance between the two wires is transformed in parallel with the bifilar coil so it has the tendency of reducing the overall inductance. Notice also that using ferromagnetic cores the capacitance also changes between the two bifilar wires (usually it increases the capacitance between the two wires).

Further measurements on my bifilar coil:

1) Start 1 and Start 2 are connected together and End 1 and End 2 are also connected together: inductance was 9 uH i.e the same as any one of the individual windings. Such connection reduces copper loss only, as if you had used thicker wire for the coil.

2) Start 1 and Start 2 are connected together, the inductance between End 1 and End 2 was less than 1 uH (resolution limit of my L meter cannot let it see more precisely). This connection represents a non inductive bifilar winding shown in the wiki link.

Regarding the counter-wound measurements you refer to in the wiki link, I believe in that case one winding is wound say in clockwise the other is in counter closckwise direction, I did not make such windings.
Here is a good explanation for two mutually coupled coils which can help estimating the answers:
Mutual Inductance of Two Adjacent Inductive Coils

Gyula
Attached Images
 Bifilar1.jpg (127.0 KB, 14 views) Bifilar2.jpg (114.3 KB, 14 views)
__________________

Last edited by gyula; 02-08-2016 at 10:13 PM.
#197
02-08-2016, 11:23 PM
 BroMikey Platinum Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 5,982
Quote:
 Originally Posted by gyula Hi BroMikey, Just out of curiosity, I have built a single layer, air cored bifilar coil from enamelled copper wires putting them side by side (no twist) on a 3 cm OD paper bobbin, wire length was 2 x 210 cm from wire OD=1 mm (AWG 18), it gave 21 turns. See attached picture 1. ..................... Gyula

Thank you that answers my question, great teaching for simple
step by step understanding of coils and their possible variations
.
__________________

#198
02-11-2016, 06:00 PM
 gotoluc Gold Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,276
Quote:
 Originally Posted by barbosi Deleted Thank you.
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 Originally Posted by barbosi Deleted Thank you.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by barbosi No need, I'm out.
Yes... and erasing all your posts with it

I wonder why

Some things are mysteries though I have seen this pattern before

Luc
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#199
02-13-2016, 09:55 PM
 wantomake Silver Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 905
testing trifilar coil

Ive been learning while testing with trifilar coil setup as LC tank with cap bank, led light with resister as load, and two 9 volt batteries. All in series.

I started by charging the cap bank up as much as it will. About 2 volts below battery bank amount. The led lights brightly then slowly diminish to off.

The interesting part is when a load is placed across the cap bank to discharge it the LED lights very bright. Then remove the load from cap bank, the battery voltage drops then starts to build up to original starting voltage. At same time the cap bank (5F 2.7 v x 7) starts charging up also.
Over an a period of 2-3 hours the LED deminish in brightness then turns off when both battery bank and cap bank returns to starting voltage. Over period of days both charge by tenths of volts to higher amounts.

I do need to post a schematic and video, which I will if this is important.

So is this normal for a trifilar coil???

It seems this circuit in series would discharge a power source with any type load connected to it. As a LC tank would.

Please be nice I'm just a student here.
Thanks,
wantomake
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#200
02-14-2016, 10:16 AM
 shylo Silver Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 594
Hi WTM,
I'm just a tinkerer so not any help, are you charging the cap bank ,then disconnecting it from batteries, and then attaching the led's to discharge the bank , and then repeating?
A circuit diagram and video would help to clear the air.
But the idea of a few days of work being done ,and voltages rising is very interesting to me.
Hope you post.
Thanks artv
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#201
02-14-2016, 03:48 PM
 wantomake Silver Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 905
Quote:
 Originally Posted by shylo Hi WTM, I'm just a tinkerer so not any help, are you charging the cap bank ,then disconnecting it from batteries, and then attaching the led's to discharge the bank , and then repeating? A circuit diagram and video would help to clear the air. But the idea of a few days of work being done ,and voltages rising is very interesting to me. Hope you post. Thanks artv
Artv,
No, I leave the circuit connected in series and do what I posted.

Later today will try to post schematic and video.

Yea me too just a hobbyist slash lover of FE and really enjoy it.

wantomake
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#202
02-14-2016, 11:14 PM
 wantomake Silver Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 905
Ok here is a short video with the schematic.

wantomake
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#203
02-15-2016, 10:00 AM
 shylo Silver Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 594
Hi WTM, A couple questions, what was the starting voltage of the batteries, and is the led connected like your schematic shows or did you just draw it wrong? If it is opposite to the drawing then the led should be lit as long as there is power supply.(caps and or batteries)
The way it is drawn you are blocking flow no? So I can't see how the caps would charge in the first place.
If it is hooked like you drew it , then I think the led is running off the back spike of the motor which is being stored in the tri-fillar. But still doesn't explain how the caps get filled up?
That's just what I think good chance I'm wrong though.
Thanks for sharing.
artv
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#204
02-15-2016, 12:49 PM
 gyula Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 820
Hi Wantomake,

I agree with shylo, the LED should normally be flipped in the schematic drawing so that the 17.2 V battery could charge up the capacitor bank at all, as per your schematic, that is.

If you started your tests with a pre-charged cap bank, then depending on how high voltage you charged up the series capacitors with respect to the two series batteries, the LED should be able to light whenever the voltage difference between the cap bank and the batteries is equal or higher than the forward voltage drop of the LED.

If you started your tests with a more or less empty cap bank, then the batteries started to charge the caps up via the LED, the 237 Ohm and the trifilar coils provided the the LED was flipped with respect to what shown in the schematic. This involved the LED had to light brightly during this first charge up process (no motor load yet).

Now, as you started the video, the cap bank had 16.32 V and the battery probably had the 17.13 V rest voltage, the difference is 0.81 V, this latter voltage is well below the 2.8-3V threshold forward voltage of the LED to emit a faint visible light so it remained dark.

Then you connected the DC motor to the cap bank, it started to discharge the bank, hence the voltage difference increased to 3.96V between the batteries and the bank (17.12V-13.16V). This is already a decent forward voltage for the LED to bright strongly, the current is limited only by the 237 Ohm and the coils DC resistance of 14.2 Ohm, both are in series (neglecting batteries input resistances).

I think if you used a load resistor of a few Ohms to start discharging the cap bank (instead of using the DC motor), the same process would take place, the LED would light up brightly as the voltage difference would dictate.

The highest current in your closed circuit (when no motor load is connected and the cap bank is fully discharged) is determined by the 237+14.2=251.2 Ohm and the 17.13 V battery voltage, this current is roughly 17.13/251.2=68.2 mA. This current decreases as the cap bank is charging up from the empty or near empty condition.

Connecting the motor, the brushes surely produce voltage spikes across the cap bank but these spikes are mostly dumped in the bank and the trifilar coils and the batteries may not benefit much from them. A scope across the cap bank should show this of course. But normally a very high capacitor value like this cap bank represents strongly prevents any high spike amplitude across it, just like a big inductance works against any current change by default.

So I mean the voltage level of the batteries is a normal chemical effect when it increases back to its rest voltage after you switched the motor off. And the cap bank is being charged up back to its 16.3V level via the LED, the resistor and the coils. the 0.81 V difference (you say as near to 1V in the video) is set, this is the minimal leaking current in the forward direction via the LED, causing that voltage difference.

Gyula
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#205
02-15-2016, 12:52 PM
 gyula Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 820
Quote:
 Originally Posted by shylo .... If it is hooked like you drew it , then I think the led is running off the back spike of the motor which is being stored in the tri-fillar. But still doesn't explain how the caps get filled up? .... artv
Hi Artv,

Notice that the LED remains lit when he removes the motor, so the LED cannot operate from the motor back spikes. See my other thoughts above.

Gyula
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#206
02-15-2016, 01:16 PM
 wantomake Silver Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 905
schematic

Quote:
 Originally Posted by shylo Hi WTM, A couple questions, what was the starting voltage of the batteries, and is the led connected like your schematic shows or did you just draw it wrong? If it is opposite to the drawing then the led should be lit as long as there is power supply.(caps and or batteries) The way it is drawn you are blocking flow no? So I can't see how the caps would charge in the first place. If it is hooked like you drew it , then I think the led is running off the back spike of the motor which is being stored in the tri-fillar. But still doesn't explain how the caps get filled up? That's just what I think good chance I'm wrong though. Thanks for sharing. artv
Artv,
Starting voltage:
17.36 batteries
16.56 for capacitors
No the LED type I'm using can connect either direction . I only used the electronic symbol to draw the circuit. If backwards then my bad. The motor was only used to draw down the cap bank. Other type loads have been used to temporarily draw down the voltage with same resuls. I even left the shop 4 ft lighs off because the coil can pick up voltage from them. Been fooled there before.

Just thought this circuit was interesting using a trifilar coil. I did try single and bifilar coil connections, but that wouldn't recharge the battery bank.

Thanks for your interest and thoughts.
wantomake
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Last edited by wantomake; 02-15-2016 at 01:18 PM.
#207
02-15-2016, 01:49 PM
 wantomake Silver Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 905
not sure

Gyula,
Sorry didn't see your post until after my post.

The resting voltage is not what the video shows. But the LED comes with the tiny resister attached and I believe I've connected it both ways. Will recheck that.

But leaking voltage is the culprit here? I did measure across the led and coil as the batts and caps charged and it was 3 - 5 or so volts and decreasing a slow discharge until the banks recharged.

So where is the extra voltage coming from?? I've unplugged the caps and the batteries with no return to resting voltage. The caps discharge as they sit there. So that is why I thought to post this so someone with more knowledge than I could explain this.

Ok, thanks then.
wantomake
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#208
02-15-2016, 02:02 PM
 shylo Silver Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 594
Hi Gyula, Thanks for the explanation, that makes more sense than what I was thinking.
WTM, every led that I have ever used has always needed to use the correct polarity.
Your coil can pick-up voltage from your lights with no connection? Can you connect a cap to the coil leads and the cap will charge up?
If so that would be awesome.
artv
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#209
02-15-2016, 03:25 PM
 gyula Silver Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 820
Hi Wantomake,

Okay on the 17.36 V battery and 16.56 V cap bank voltages, the difference is 0.8 V. On leaking current via the LED I mean the following: the cap bank from its 16.56 V level slowly self discharges when left alone (disconnected) and the battery is is able to supply this current via the LED when the cap bank is in the circuit (this is just some microAmper maximum) while the voltage drop in the forward direction across the LED is just 0.8 V, and this small forward bias is normally not enough to emit visible light. This tiny microAmper is what I meant on leaking current via the LED to supply the self discharging loss of the cap bank.

When you discharge the cap bank, the 0.8 V difference invariably increases because the cap bank voltage reduces as your voltmeter showed, this must be the 3 - 5 V or so you measured in the process. (The battery voltage nearly remains the same.) The difference increases as the cap bank loses charge due to the motor or other load and the difference decreases when the load is removed from the cap bank and the battery starts recharging it.

So what do you mean by extra voltage? If you mean the recovery of the unplugged batteries (some ten to some hundred mV) I think that is normal for both the rechargable and the alkaline batteries, depending mainly on their age / usage. The capacitor bank is also able to recover some hundred mV when they were charged up earlier but got discharged from say 16.5 to 14 V and you disconnect them completely (the dielectric material in the capacitors has a 'memory' effect, they have been stressed by a higher voltage and then this voltage disappeared by the discharge). When the cap bank is included in the circuit, the batteries are able to charge them up via the LED, starting from the 3 to 5 V difference till this difference settles at 0.8V and the LED becomes dark. If you still have questions, ask.

Gyula
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Last edited by gyula; 02-15-2016 at 03:35 PM. Reason: correction
#210
02-15-2016, 03:27 PM
 wantomake Silver Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 905

Artv,
What I should've said in above post is that I did turn the lights off to test whether the coil picks up any residual voltage from the lights. This one doesn't. This LED is from Christmas light cord and I drew the circuit wrong so my mistake there.

I've been learning more about coils to finish the Lockridge motor/generator that sits on my bench for last year or so. I believe a capacitor coil mechanism is the answer to the energy storage needed to complete this project. It's been very interesting but frustrating at times.

Anyway, still learning.
wantomake
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