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  #1081  
Old 05-14-2018, 11:41 AM
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dyetalon dyetalon is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
You are completely closing up your understanding, Bistander.

Ferrocell does contains trillions of nano particles which ARE HIGHLY SENSITIVE to Magnetic Field PRESENCE...SO, YES, We could say a Ferrocell is a FULL SENSOR of Magnetic Fields.

Same way an Image Sensor (from a digicam) have thousands of LIGHT SENSORS on a PIXEL SCALE.

Ferrocell captures close and far field lines and plants it on its 2D Image we see.

Imagine a FERROFLUID MIRROR(As a matter of fact I want to build one!!!, simple...one glass would be a mirror...and the other clear, transparent)...it could REFLECT ONLY THE FIELD IMAGE for Us to see it...plus of course...also the magnet.

However we look at magnet and we do not see "the Field" reflected on mirror...why? because we can not see Fields with our eyes...

That Field MIRRORED IMAGE seems to be a 2D Image...but we know it is a 3D Image.

Now, again, your question...does Ferrocell Mirror has "sensors"?...what do you think?


Regards and goodnight!


Ufopolitics
FYI:
Michael Snyder did the Ferro-mirror a few years ago. One of his images has been published in a couple of different places.
Try this with iron filings. Hah.
Note: this is a single red LED shining down into the cell at a 45 degree angle and bouncing off the mirror and fluid with a magnetic pole under the mirror.


****** I moved this discussion to General Topics ********

>
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  #1082  
Old 05-14-2018, 12:44 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Beautiful

Quote:
Originally Posted by dyetalon View Post
FYI:
Michael Snyder did the Ferro-mirror a few years ago. One of his images has been published in a couple of different places.
Try this with iron filings. Hah.
Note: this is a single red LED shining down into the cell at a 45 degree angle and bouncing off the mirror and fluid with a magnetic pole under the mirror.
Hi dyetalon,

That is a nice image but what does it represent; certainly not the magnetic field?

From: https://www.kjmagnetics.com/blog.asp?p=light-viewer


Quote:
What are the lines of light in this DIY Ferrocell?

If they’re not lines of flux, what are they showing? The answer seems to be a bit more complicated. As if understanding magnetism wasn’t complex enough, this device adds some crazy optical effects through a fluid. There’s something going on with polarization of the light and how it gets scattered by the nano-sized particles in ferrofluid. We didn’t quite understand 100% of what we read about it, but it seems that some of the effects aren’t yet completely understood. Studies are ongoing.

Each visible line appears as a path of light that comes from each point light source and travels along the path of least potential. We’re not sure what that all means, but it sure does look interesting!

In the adjacent pictures, the upper photo shows the device in action. The lower picture is an analytical depiction of the field strength and direction. It's clear that the lines are not showing the same things in the same way.
I'm not saying ferrocells aren't interesting or useful. I'm just trying to understand what information is or can be obtained from the image. It is not the magnetic field as it is defined in science, academia, or industry. The closest explanation that I've seen is traces representing magnetic vector potentials plus some other yet unexplained phenomena.

Regards,

bi
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  #1083  
Old 05-14-2018, 02:04 PM
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dyetalon dyetalon is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Hi dyetalon,

That is a nice image but what does it represent; certainly not the magnetic field?

From: https://www.kjmagnetics.com/blog.asp?p=light-viewer




I'm not saying ferrocells aren't interesting or useful. I'm just trying to understand what information is or can be obtained from the image. It is not the magnetic field as it is defined in science, academia, or industry. The closest explanation that I've seen is traces representing magnetic vector potentials plus some other yet unexplained phenomena.

Regards,

bi
I'd like to move this conversation to the General area and leave Kens discussion. I started a new thread there but is not appearing yet.

For now, open your imagination into a situation where two phases cancel out.
That leaves nothing. Now you turn on a light. Then you see the "nothing".

Its the lowest potential. Zero point. The Bloch region.
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  #1084  
Old 05-14-2018, 02:08 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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New thread

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Originally Posted by dyetalon View Post
I'd like to move this conversation to the General area and leave Kens discussion. I started a new thread there but is not appearing yet.

For now, open your imagination into a situation where two phases cancel out.
That leaves nothing. Now you turn on a light. Then you see the "nothing".

Its the lowest potential. Zero point. The Bloch region.
O.K. See you there.

New thread.

about the Ferrocell (ferrolens)
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  #1085  
Old 05-14-2018, 03:40 PM
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And something no one ever talks about is the Fe3O4 (magnetite) used in Hobby-Experimenter grade Ferrofluid (EFH1) is FERRIMAGNETIC not FERROMAGNETIC. Look it up.
Yes that is correct iron oxide like the Fe3O4 usually used in the Ferrocells are ferrimangetic as Timm mentions. I knew that but never mentioned it because this would complicate things even more than they are already in this thread.

https://sciencing.com/differences-be...m-8488277.html

Classes of Magnetic Materials

However, the ferrimagnetism is one of the strongest points of the Ferrocell may I add because the neighboring magnetic parallel chains of Fe3O4 nanoparticles formed under the influence of an external magnetic field, due their antipolarity are not magnetically interacting (i.e. by that i mean there is no torque produced between to parallel chains therefore remain parallel) with each other and hold in equilibrium, in contrast we have in the case of ferromagnetic iron fillings which actually deforming the applied magnetic field to a point we see the familiar N-S shortcircuit image field that the iron fillings show.

Therefore when an external magnetic field is applied, because ferrimagnetic property of Fe3O4 nanoparticles neighboring parallel chains inside a Ferrocell and also the single domain behavior (superparamagnetism) of the nanoparticles inside the same chain, Ferrocell is producing minimum interference distortion to the external magnetic field applied and is able to follow correctly without distortion its flux.

Thus, a Ferrocell shows the correct flux of a magnetic field and not iron filings.

No perception tricks no light tricks no tricks.

The image we get from the Ferrocell of a magnetic field IS THE FIELD OF A MAGNET!...or the closest to reality that humans ever achieved in history.

my2cents

EM
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  #1086  
Old 05-14-2018, 03:51 PM
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@Tim Vanderelli

Hello Timm,

Like I wrote before, you are always welcome to keep whatever conversation here as you would like...

Want to keep Ken out of your conversation...that is perfectly fine with me.

I have seen those images (the "eye of Ra...) from Michael Snyder-Revolution Labs..he have them in different colors...

Now I have a question about a ferrofluid test.

Have anyone you know off...made a clear container w water plus water based ferrofluid...not too concentrated...then submerge a magnet in...then add some lighting?

Just to see if loose ferrofluid particles, dissolved in water, would form a 3D Volume within container?

I have ordered some water based ferrofluid to conduct some experiments...and the above is #1 on the list.


P.D: whenever you get that new Thread open and displayed, please share here the link to it.


Thanks and Kind Regards


Ufopolitics
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  #1087  
Old 05-14-2018, 07:15 PM
mikrovolt mikrovolt is offline
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I realize that UFO crt demonstration has raster line ect. We can also compare with and without raster and other dynamics. The Ken W video on centrifugal centrapedal effects on crt. Ken's presentation being Sat July 5th at 11:00 am coming up.

( excluding still pictures I do admit there is various brain activity how our 2 eyes see a 3D image )
https://youtu.be/Dilk8gcDxac

Looking at a another video we discussed briefly a while back. ( Credit to Rice University, Houstan TX has something else to say. )
There is an interesting scene in the focused beam video. The electron gun may have more value in our quest to see magnetism.
It also has vortex and this is a common thread among those that believe that a vortex does play a role. This is not taught in lower levels.

magnet and cathode ray.JPG

The video demonstrates a magnet pointed straight on to the focused cathode ray. In this scene the teacher also shows the magnet at an angle.
In this scene I see more geometry and intersecting lines, the gases are showing slight glow in specific places. The gases are showing
something that is not readily intuitive which is not like the ferro-fluid multi cone head or the metal filing fuzz head.

Also, wondering what proportion of magnetic and electric raises a question: How much of each component is contributing to the deflection ?
In the remainder of the video the voltage on the e-beam is being increased inside a uniform field.
Another question is what would happen if the voltage was increased in the scene shown by image above ?

The scene shown above referenced is video called "magnetic force on charged particles" (Rice U online video )

https://youtu.be/orsMYomjwIw?t=62
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  #1088  
Old 05-15-2018, 01:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
Hello to All,

Below is a picture taken from Ken Wheeler's Book:

And here is my simple graphical display of:

THE TWO POLES (NORTH-SOUTH) AND THE EXACT CENTER DIVISION BETWEEN BOTH.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
Now, from Ken's Video:



Now, an Image from that video about same view, center of magnet revealed by Ferrofluid...but Full, complete...



Poles above are Up and Down of screen...You all could watch video to see full movement on top of magnet, plus comparison with View Film.

What Ken calls the Hyperboloid Geometrical Shape.
Now the same simple graphics as before:



DEPICTING CLEARLY WHERE FERROFLUID "SINKS"...EXACTLY AT THE CENTER OF ANY MAGNET

Anyone of the Nay Sayers have anything to say NOW about this completely

EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE?


Ufopolitics
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  #1089  
Old 05-15-2018, 04:24 AM
ricards ricards is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
And here is my simple graphical display of:

THE TWO POLES (NORTH-SOUTH) AND THE EXACT CENTER DIVISION BETWEEN BOTH.







Now the same simple graphics as before:



DEPICTING CLEARLY WHERE FERROFLUID "SINKS"...EXACTLY AT THE CENTER OF ANY MAGNET

Anyone of the Nay Sayers have anything to say NOW about this completely

EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE?


Ufopolitics
UFO,

a fluid Takes the shape of a container..

the Ferro... is attracted to the magnet but is restricted by that bent container..

there is an accumulation on top of the magnet and the bottom of the magnet indicating the ferro.. is attracted on the poles.. the flux now is guided to a less reluctant path (for the academic troll) and would be guided

very similar in the first video markoul snapshot.. there is a fluid in the middle connecting the fluid attracted to the north and south pole of a magnet..
If you were to break that It will and both fluid will accumulate only on the poles, If you were to guide it again (physically guiding the ferro..).. It will make that "Hourglass" shape again.

You are all great thinkers.. that I'm sure..
but to complicate a simple thing such as a "Magnetic Field" geometry isn't very smart..
such things can be explained with common sense..

If you people are contesting the magnetic field is not that of the Iron filings depiction.. then I will agree.. Its not..
because its much much much much.. bigger.. the filings shrinked it BUT not deformed it..
no double hemisphere, nor vortex..

you may have a GREAT theory explaining how galaxies work.. I can accept that.. because we cannot disprove it..

BUT NO.. not the permanent magnet..

I will mention it again..

THE MAGNETIC ATTRACTION.. WILL DESTROY THE VERY GEOMETRY YOU GUYS ARE TRYING TO PROMOTE.. IN WHICH KEN'S BOOK CONVENIENTLY ELIMINATES.
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  #1090  
Old 05-15-2018, 07:16 AM
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Dear ricards,

Ferrofluid ferrimagnetic and superparamgnetic thin film inside the ferrocell aligns parallel to the external magnetic field therefore the magnetic image produced is a perfect copy of the flux of the field under observation.

Iron filings are attracted by the strongest nearest pole of a magnet thus attracted only by the two strongest potentials of the field of a magnet meaning its two poles, therefore only depicting the N-S axis direction of a magnet and unable to depict the complete flux of the field which has much more than two potentials! They are really just compasses pointing only at the strongest magnetic potential found in an area and unsuitable for any flux observation.

That's all really.

If you can not understand that, I can not help you.

Let's say we agree that we disagree shake hands and you leave this thread here.

No point is staying in a thread of no interest for you and just endless debate looping.

I will stop to respond further to your posts. It is a waste of time for both of us, I believe.

Kind Regards,

EM
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  #1091  
Old 05-15-2018, 10:29 AM
ricards ricards is online now
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Originally Posted by Markoul View Post
Dear ricards,

Ferrofluid ferrimagnetic and superparamgnetic thin film inside the ferrocell aligns parallel to the external magnetic field therefore the magnetic image produced is a perfect copy of the flux of the field under observation.

Iron filings are attracted by the strongest nearest pole of a magnet thus attracted only by the two strongest potentials of the field of a magnet meaning its two poles, therefore only depicting the N-S axis direction of a magnet and unable to depict the complete flux of the field which has much more than two potentials! They are really just compasses pointing only at the strongest magnetic potential found in an area and unsuitable for any flux observation.

That's all really.

If you can not understand that, I can not help you.

Let's say we agree that we disagree shake hands and you leave this thread here.

No point is staying in a thread of no interest for you and just endless debate looping.

I will stop to respond further to your posts. It is a waste of time for both of us, I believe.

Kind Regards,

EM
Markoul,

Your mistaken that I'm NOT Interested in this topic, the very reason I kept
reading and posting is because I am..

I have not Closed my mind in what you guys propose here (the New Magnetic Field) unlike you guys have closed your minds in what you see with the Iron Filings (nor that video with the levitating magnet poured with ferrofluid)..
ITS NOT WRONG!.. IT WONT LIE!..

I offer my Interpretation with that phenomenon twice!.. The Flux are "Flexible"! and can be guided.. You nor UFO have not stated otherwise meaning you guys agree.. and are aware of it..

Okay I have an Idea, Let's put your New Magnetic Field models to test..
(don't worry no Iron filings)..

A ferrofluid in sandwiched in a glass with lights below.. but this time..
It should have a SLOT in the middle of it for a magnet to go through..

If what you guys interpret is correct.. we should be able to see light interference as the magnet goes up and down that Slot..
because as you state It pictures the 2D (Plane) of a 3D (Volume) of the Magnetic field..
in Engineering terminology we call it Section view (I hope It's a little bit academic Language for you now)..

Unlike you I do think on how to resolve the situation.. I don't just argue!.
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  #1092  
Old 05-15-2018, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricards View Post
UFO,

a fluid Takes the shape of a container..

Yes, a fluid inside a container, of course it takes container shape...and in both cases ONLY APPLIES, THEREFORE, RELATES ONLY TO THE WATER INSIDE CONTAINER.

BUT, FERROFLUID IS FREELY LOOSE WITHIN WATER, just like a drop of water on air...since both ferrofluid shown are NOT WATER BASED, SO THE SHAPE IT TAKES-NO MATTER CONTAINER SHAPE- IS SPHERICAL Under NO INFLUENCE FROM ANY MAGNETIC FIELD.

According to iron filings shape IT "SHOULD" FORM A SPHEROIDAL SHAPE...but IT DOES NOT!
IT FORMS A HYPERBOLOID, AN HOURGLASS SHAPE...WITH A "WAIST"...A SHRINK BELT EXACTLY AT CENTER...

And that particular shape does Not belong to any container form, nor ANY FREE LOOSE FORM.


Quote:
the Ferro... is attracted to the magnet but is restricted by that bent container..


there is an accumulation on top of the magnet and the bottom of the magnet indicating the ferro.. is attracted on the poles.. the flux now is guided to a less reluctant path (for the academic troll) and would be guided

very similar in the first video markoul snapshot.. there is a fluid in the middle connecting the fluid attracted to the north and south pole of a magnet..
If you were to break that It will and both fluid will accumulate only on the poles, If you were to guide it again (physically guiding the ferro..).. It will make that "Hourglass" shape again.

You are all great thinkers.. that I'm sure..
but to complicate a simple thing such as a "Magnetic Field" geometry isn't very smart..
such things can be explained with common sense..

If you people are contesting the magnetic field is not that of the Iron filings depiction.. then I will agree.. Its not..
because its much much much much.. bigger.. the filings shrinked it BUT not deformed it..
no double hemisphere, nor vortex..

you may have a GREAT theory explaining how galaxies work.. I can accept that.. because we cannot disprove it..

BUT NO.. not the permanent magnet..

I will mention it again..

THE MAGNETIC ATTRACTION.. WILL DESTROY THE VERY GEOMETRY YOU GUYS ARE TRYING TO PROMOTE.. IN WHICH KEN'S BOOK CONVENIENTLY ELIMINATES.

ALL OF THE ABOVE....PLAIN AND SIMPLE BS!!!

The shape of container influences THE SHAPE OF WATER, BUT NOT THE FERROFLUID!!!

Ferrofluid WITHIN WATER WITHOUT ANY INFLUENCE IS A SIMPLE BALL.

This is NOT TINKERING...THIS ARE EXPERIMENTS AND TESTS!

LEARN THE MEANING OF "TINKERER"...THIS IS SCIENCE...

AND...THERE IS NO "NEW MAGNETISM"...BUT SAME OL ALWAYS EXISTED MAGNETISM.



Ufopolitics
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  #1093  
Old 05-15-2018, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
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...A ferrofluid in sandwiched in a glass with lights below.. but this time..
It should have a SLOT in the middle of it for a magnet to go through...
Check new thread: about the Ferrocell (ferrolens)
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  #1094  
Old 05-15-2018, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricards View Post
Markoul,

Your mistaken that I'm NOT Interested in this topic, the very reason I kept
reading and posting is because I am..

I have not Closed my mind in what you guys propose here (the New Magnetic Field) unlike you guys have closed your minds in what you see with the Iron Filings (nor that video with the levitating magnet poured with ferrofluid)..
ITS NOT WRONG!.. IT WONT LIE!..

I offer my Interpretation with that phenomenon twice!.. The Flux are "Flexible"! and can be guided.. You nor UFO have not stated otherwise meaning you guys agree.. and are aware of it..

Okay I have an Idea, Let's put your New Magnetic Field models to test..
(don't worry no Iron filings)..

A ferrofluid in sandwiched in a glass with lights below.. but this time..
It should have a SLOT in the middle of it for a magnet to go through..

If what you guys interpret is correct.. we should be able to see light interference as the magnet goes up and down that Slot..
because as you state It pictures the 2D (Plane) of a 3D (Volume) of the Magnetic field..
in Engineering terminology we call it Section view (I hope It's a little bit academic Language for you now)..

Unlike you I do think on how to resolve the situation.. I don't just argue!.
Here is your ****ing slot!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VG6-QseOpI4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVUi6Jm9Ghg
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  #1095  
Old 05-15-2018, 09:25 PM
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Beautiful analogy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
Hello Bistander,

It "was" a good and quiet Sunday evening!!...

Just kidding...



Wrong conception...

Magnetic Field is invisible to our eyes, BUT NOT to the Ferrocell.

Ferrocell "sees" the whole 3D Field Volume, and I mean the whole thing...even the further layers...then print its view into a 2D Image.

Ferrocell is sensitive to Magnetic Field, it reacts and realigns according to the magnetic Field positioning based on its Viewing Capturing Angle.




Bistander, if my analogy of "wireframe" was bad...your "Transparent Pages Book" is even worst.

First off...a book is a reading object, always based on 2D Text and Images.

A 3D Wireframe is much closer to a 3D Field.

But I agree that the wireframe is not that good of an explanation to understand how Ferrocell works...so here is another analogy, which I have mentioned before...

PHOTOGRAPHY AND LIGHT SENSITIVE CAPTURING DEVICES

The sensitive film captures a 3D Image of reality through the camera lens and then takes it into a 3D Flat Print.

On a Photograph you can clearly see/define in depth images which are further away from first plane images.

If you set your lens adjustment to "infinite" capturing, then ALL objects will appear "in focus", no matter how far away from the camera they are.

However, if you adjust lens to Focus on first planes only...then all far away objects would appear blurred or "out of focus"...and there would be a point, where the furthest objects would just appear as "blemishes, or spots" which contour lines are not defined, but faded away.

Ferrocell does exactly this second adjustment, where only immediate second planes would be "in focus" while the furthest away would be blurred out and darker, because of the reach of light as well.

And so even a best analogy would be the "Imaging Sensor" from a Digital Camera...



Only thing...is that above sensor is only sensitive to light...and Ferrocell is only sensitive to Magnetic Fields.




How could you be so sure...that we are wrong and you are right?

What or Who gave you such info?

Your lack to interpret Magnetic Fields True 3D Imaging...simply relies in your very low knowledge about Spatial Geometry plus Imaging Perspective Basics and Fundamentals Interpretation...mixed up with a very low capacity to build in your mind 3D Models, before taking them into prints, 3D CAD's...or paintings.

And just because you have a very low perception about 3D Volumes Interpretation...does not grants you the right to deny others who can clearly do, plus show others how to understand it.

First Career I took when I was a kid...was Architecture...and it does helps a lot for this job.


Regards


Ufopolitics

Ufopolitics,

Quote:
Only thing...is that above sensor is only sensitive to light...and Ferrocell is only sensitive to Magnetic Fields.
You couldn't put it more beautiful than that! Bravo!

This analogy was simply genius!!

Of course range in distance of ferrocell is limited compared with a CCD sensor.

Thank you my friend.

EM
p.s.
I will be gone for a while to Timm's newly thread. These thread here I believe deserves a vacation. I hope you will join? You can not leave me alone with ricards iamnuts microvolt!
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  #1096  
Old 05-15-2018, 10:35 PM
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My purpose is to establish to the world the real geometry of the magnetic field shown by the ferrocell.

We did 200 years ago a mistake... it is time to rectify it...

Do you understand how significant this is? If we got the geometry of the field wrong this will prevent us from going to the stars!!

...everything changes even the dipole magnetic field of the electron!! to the discovery of dark matter and dark energy domain!!




EM
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  #1097  
Old 05-16-2018, 03:59 AM
ricards ricards is online now
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GREAT FIND MARKOUL!!.. now what did you interpret from it?..
Did you notice the Double Hemisphere is now forming sideways of what you propose?..

ALSO NOTICE..
when when the magnet is passed halfway (at the bloch region).. the ferrolens behave as if there was no magnet.. well its understandable..
BUT according to your model IT (ferrofluid) SHOULD HAVE ACCUMULATED NEAR THE MAGNET.. but it DIDN"T.. what does that mean?..

also you missed this one..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpA_0eNKkdo

This is the configuration I was talking about!..
Magnetic North and South parallel to the Ferrolens.
there were no light interference as far as I can tell.. Indicating the spherical rotation of UFO's Model is wrong, Flux are straight parallel to the Magnetic North-Magnetic South Axis and is guided by the ferro material.

but I must admit there is still that formation of double hemisphere (looking at the darkened pattern)..

and also this one..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ueVhG8hT3E

a ferrolens experiments agrees with classical Magnetic field. at certain angle..
and it agrees with that double hemisphere also at certain angles..

I guess this is all optical Illusion.

I almost completely forgotten... all credits to the owner of the video..
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Last edited by ricards; 05-16-2018 at 04:15 AM. Reason: also notice...
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  #1098  
Old 05-16-2018, 04:15 AM
bistander bistander is online now
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Shape of ferrofluid

Hi Ufo,

I tried my hand at some graphics.



Your handiwork above.



My attempt above. I started with an FEMM from K & J Magnetics. It is a similar shaped magnet to the very large one in your picture. The magnetic field is represented by the curved lines (B field) and colored areas are potentials. You can see that the field lines are concentrated at the corners indicating the strongest area of the field (purple to dark pink). On the sides of the magnet between the pole faces, the field weakens indicated by less dense black lines and a more narrow band of pink color (indicating lower potential).

The FEMM is symmetrical about the axis. On the top side I have drawn a white rectangle representing the test tube vessel in your picture. Then I free hand painted a curved line outlining the high flux area. It is similar in shape to the outline of the ferrofluid in your picture.

I see nothing in the ferrofluid behavior contrary to classic magnetic field theory.

As for the plastic pomegranate juice bottle, nothing much there either. The magnet has strongest field at the corner of the pole faces, the shape of the bottle is confusing the issue and you can plainly see he deforms the plastic bottle to maximize the shape to fit his verbiage.

Regards,

bi
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  #1099  
Old 05-16-2018, 05:10 AM
ricards ricards is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Hi Ufo,

I tried my hand at some graphics.



Your handiwork above.



My attempt above. I started with an FEMM from K & J Magnetics. It is a similar shaped magnet to the very large one in your picture. The magnetic field is represented by the curved lines (B field) and colored areas are potentials. You can see that the field lines are concentrated at the corners indicating the strongest area of the field (purple to dark pink). On the sides of the magnet between the pole faces, the field weakens indicated by less dense black lines and a more narrow band of pink color (indicating lower potential).

The FEMM is symmetrical about the axis. On the top side I have drawn a white rectangle representing the test tube vessel in your picture. Then I free hand painted a curved line outlining the high flux area. It is similar in shape to the outline of the ferrofluid in your picture.

I see nothing in the ferrofluid behavior contrary to classic magnetic field theory.

As for the plastic pomegranate juice bottle, nothing much there either. The magnet has strongest field at the corner of the pole faces, the shape of the bottle is confusing the issue and you can plainly see he deforms the plastic bottle to maximize the shape to fit his verbiage.

Regards,

bi
Hello Bi,

same thing I was telling him.. only in a less academic language.

he might quote some sentence, contradict it.. and all the rest of your statement BS as well..
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Old 05-16-2018, 01:08 PM
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Ufopolitics Ufopolitics is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Hi Ufo,

I tried my hand at some graphics.



Your handiwork above.



My attempt above. I started with an FEMM from K & J Magnetics. It is a similar shaped magnet to the very large one in your picture. The magnetic field is represented by the curved lines (B field) and colored areas are potentials. You can see that the field lines are concentrated at the corners indicating the strongest area of the field (purple to dark pink). On the sides of the magnet between the pole faces, the field weakens indicated by less dense black lines and a more narrow band of pink color (indicating lower potential).

The FEMM is symmetrical about the axis. On the top side I have drawn a white rectangle representing the test tube vessel in your picture. Then I free hand painted a curved line outlining the high flux area. It is similar in shape to the outline of the ferrofluid in your picture.

I see nothing in the ferrofluid behavior contrary to classic magnetic field theory.

As for the plastic pomegranate juice bottle, nothing much there either. The magnet has strongest field at the corner of the pole faces, the shape of the bottle is confusing the issue and you can plainly see he deforms the plastic bottle to maximize the shape to fit his verbiage.

Regards,

bi

Nice job in your "attempt" Bistander!

Everything looks fine there...nice colors...neat lines...I mean, if you keep practicing like that...maybe in a few years you could be as good as me....

Everything looks fine EXCEPT you have "forced" the hand made white line to sink at middle/center of magnet...IF you would have followed the circular lines...it certainly wouldn't look like you did it.

You see...this was just a pic from Ken's book...and the correct way to conduct this experiment...is to have two identical glass tubes...one with ferrofluid...plus the other one with very fine iron filings...

ONLY THEN WE COULD REALLY SAY THERE IS NOTHING CONTRARY BETWEEN FERROFLUIDS VERSUS IRON FILINGS...

Until we do that...all are speculations..

Like I wrote before...I have on its way some ferrofluid bottles...


Regards



Ufopolitics
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Last edited by Ufopolitics; 05-16-2018 at 02:53 PM.
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  #1101  
Old 05-16-2018, 03:09 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Field and potential

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Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
...
Everything looks fine EXCEPT you have "forced" the hand made white line to sink at middle/center of magnet...IF you would have followed the circular lines...it certainly wouldn't look like you did it.
...
Hi Ufo,

You apparently don't understand the concept of the FEMM. The black lines show the flux and the more dense they are indicate the stronger field (B vector). Where the black lines bulge out and become more separated in between the pole surfaces along the outside magnet surface is where the field weakens. As I said in my post, the freehand white line was my attempt to show the magnetic potential contour (colored area), not to follow or force the field lines.

The ferrofluid will be more attracted to the areas of the magnetic field which are stronger. Those areas are indicated by more densely packed black lines (like at the pole face corners) and also indicated by the potential contour colored areas.

Regards,

bi
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Old 05-16-2018, 03:25 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Surface tension

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Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
...
ONLY THEN WE COULD REALLY SAY THERE IS NOTHING CONTRARY BETWEEN FERROFLUIDS VERSUS IRON FILINGS...
Experimenting is good. But the ferrofluid, a liquid, will behave differently than iron powder, solid particles, primarily due to surface tension. This guy explains it well.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PvtUt02zVAs

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  #1103  
Old 05-16-2018, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Hi Ufo,

You apparently don't understand the concept of the FEMM. The black lines show the flux and the more dense they are indicate the stronger field (B vector). Where the black lines bulge out and become more separated in between the pole surfaces along the outside magnet surface is where the field weakens. As I said in my post, the freehand white line was my attempt to show the magnetic potential contour (colored area), not to follow or force the field lines.

The ferrofluid will be more attracted to the areas of the magnetic field which are stronger. Those areas are indicated by more densely packed black lines (like at the pole face corners) and also indicated by the potential contour colored areas.

Regards,

bi

Hi Bistander,

I do understand FEMM, its principle is based on iron filings display of Magnetic Fields.
I understand that curves where they are closer to each other's are stronger areas than when more spaced apart...correct?

Now, on the type of magnet under test, where Poles are so close to each other's...as also being a very strong Neodymium Magnet...that so short distance iron filings or powder will never show such difference in low potential, in that reduced center, cause of poles being so close together...only ferrofluid would.

Point is...your white line is just free handed as you have seen with ferrofluid on my pics...nothing less nothing more...my 3 Years old grand daughter could do that as well if I ask her to reproduce it from pic to FEMM diagram...

All FEMM Flux curves between poles (smallest curves) represent the way iron filings would do...an Inflated "belly" shape.

We have been using ONE WAY DIRECTIONAL particles (FERROMAGNETIC) to find out the Shape of a DIPOLE FIELD...Instead of a BIDIRECTIONAL PARTICLE which is Ferrofluids based on.

Ferrofluid DIVERGE-SPLIT POLARIZATIONS showing a weaker area (shrinked) at Center of every magnet ...the correct way to image a DIPOLE FIELD.



Regards


Ufopolitics
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Last edited by Ufopolitics; 05-16-2018 at 05:23 PM.
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  #1104  
Old 05-16-2018, 04:45 PM
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Ufopolitics Ufopolitics is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Experimenting is good. But the ferrofluid, a liquid, will behave differently than iron powder, solid particles, primarily due to surface tension. This guy explains it well.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PvtUt02zVAs


If the experiment is carefully made...measuring identical amounts of both fluids (iron powder & ferrofluid) then result is only due to each material properties.
We all know how iron powder will react at the center between both poles...but, for the sake to satisfy radical differences...so be it.


Regards


Ufopolitics
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  #1105  
Old 05-16-2018, 05:25 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Powder vs fluid

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Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
If the experiment is carefully made...measuring identical amounts of both fluids (iron powder & ferrofluid) then result is only due to each material properties.
We all know how iron powder will react at the center between both poles...but, for the sake to satisfy radical differences...so be it.


Regards


Ufopolitics
Hi Ufo,

Why do you call iron powder a fluid?

And is that equal amount mass or volume? And how do you account for difference in permeability?

Good luck with the test.

bi
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  #1106  
Old 05-16-2018, 05:41 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Understanding?

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Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
I do understand FEMM, its principle is based on iron filings display of Magnetic Fields.
...
Hi Ufo,

You understand incorrectly. The FEMM simulation is developed from Maxwell's equations, not copied from the grade school science experiment using iron filings. You get hung up on "iron filings". It's just an experiment or demonstration as is ferrofluid in a bottle. Both, fluid and powder, follow the basic magnetic principles described by the science developed (description-wise) so many years ago. Nothing about magnetism has changed. We use new materials, and new instruments, but magnetism is unchanged.

Regards,

bi

Edit:

Magnet in the simulation is K&J D62. From an earlier post of mine: https://www.kjmagnetics.com/blog.asp?p=light-viewer
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Last edited by bistander; 05-16-2018 at 05:47 PM. Reason: Addition
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  #1107  
Old 05-17-2018, 01:32 AM
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Ufopolitics Ufopolitics is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Hi Ufo,

You understand incorrectly. The FEMM simulation is developed from Maxwell's equations, not copied from the grade school science experiment using iron filings. You get hung up on "iron filings". It's just an experiment or demonstration as is ferrofluid in a bottle. Both, fluid and powder, follow the basic magnetic principles described by the science developed (description-wise) so many years ago. Nothing about magnetism has changed. We use new materials, and new instruments, but magnetism is unchanged.

Regards,

bi
School GRADE science experiment??!! using iron filings?...

It happens that The UK, Royal Institution of Science...still saves the original Iron Filings Diagrams that Michael Faraday did back in 1831...to demonstrate magnetic lines of force..

And I do not think Faraday was exactly doing any school science project then...he was kind of a grown up man when he did this diagrams...not in school anymore...

Oh!...and after that, remember that came Maxwell...and did all the math (Equations) based on those "Imaginary Lines of Force" drawings plus all Faraday's Experiments.

Visit the linked website above...interesting stuff saved from History in Science...it is very important to have all Magnetism related History Facts in a Chronological order.


Ufopolitics
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  #1108  
Old 05-17-2018, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
...it is very important to have all Magnetism related History Facts in a Chronological order.


EM
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  #1109  
Old 05-17-2018, 07:41 AM
Iamnuts Iamnuts is online now
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FaradayMichael-Tax500px.jpg

Guess what my question is?
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Old 05-17-2018, 10:52 AM
Iamnuts Iamnuts is online now
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Gives an idea
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