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  #1  
Old 11-20-2015, 01:03 PM
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nilrehob nilrehob is offline
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Increasing Electromagnet Force

We have a new paper out, its the 5th and its called "Increasing Electromagnet Force".

It focus on the force per power ratio in coils.

Since the concept of an electromagnet is present in both motors and generators we find it interesting to study the relationship between the parameters describing the electrical power the coil consumes and the mechanical force with which the coil attracts a piece of ferromagnetic material or a magnet.

The amount of copper in an electromagnet determines the force per power ratio, not the number of turns or the wire thickness in the coil, the more copper the greater force.

To get the best performance in an electromagnet it should be as big as possible, which leads us to believe that motors should have as few and big coils as possible (think Joseph Newman) to increase torque per power. We also believe that the reverse is true, that generators should have as many and small coils as possible to decrease torque per power.

You can find all papers here:
https://sites.google.com/site/nilreh...entary-physics

/Hob
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  #2  
Old 11-20-2015, 01:55 PM
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I also did a short video on the subject:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIeRR6NjMPQ

/Hob
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  #3  
Old 11-20-2015, 05:13 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nilrehob View Post
... that motors .... to increase torque per power.
Simply means to decrease frequency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nilrehob View Post
.... that generators ..... decrease torque per power.
Simply means to increase frequency.

What works for one, works for other; motor or generator. And frequency relates to pole count and RPM.

bi
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  #4  
Old 11-20-2015, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Simply means to decrease frequency.



Simply means to increase frequency.

What works for one, works for other; motor or generator. And frequency relates to pole count and RPM.

bi
I donít understand how that relates to my paper, can you elaborate?

/Hob
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  #5  
Old 11-20-2015, 05:43 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Valid conclusions ???

Look at the last paragraph.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nilrehob View Post
To get the best performance in an electromagnet it should be as big as possible,
A valid conclusion. Some might say obvious, but I appreciate the treatment. And this would apply to a motor in a stall condition (zero RPM). A generator at zero RPM doesn't make any sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nilrehob View Post
leads us to believe that motors should have as few and big coils as possible (think Joseph Newman) to increase torque per power. We also believe that the reverse is true, that generators should have as many and small coils as possible to decrease torque per power.
However, for dynamos operating as converters of energy (motors or generators actually rotating), that part of the paragraph is invalid, in my opinion.

bi
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  #6  
Old 11-20-2015, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
However, for dynamos operating as converters of energy (motors or generators actually rotating), that part of the paragraph is invalid, in my opinion.
I would be very interested in any evidence or logic behind your opinion. Can you elaborate?

/Hob
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  #7  
Old 11-20-2015, 06:44 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nilrehob View Post
I would be very interested in any evidence or logic behind your opinion. Can you elaborate?

/Hob
Hi Hob,

You can't argue with Power = Torque * Rotational Velocity (frequency or RPM), can you? Then my post #3 stands. I disagree with how you relate your paper to dynamos. If you were correct, then motors would tend to be very slow machines and generators be very fast machines which is clearly not the case in practice.

You are the one putting forth the hypothesis; the burden of proof is yours. My experience tells me that your second quote in my post #5 is an invalid conclusion drawn from what may be a completely valid paper. I am not arguing the paper.* edit: I just rechecked your paper and see that the paragraph to which I object is in fact included as 5. Conclusion. So I guess I do take issue with your paper.

Regards,

bi
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Last edited by bistander; 11-20-2015 at 06:50 PM. Reason: Rechecked his paper
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  #8  
Old 11-20-2015, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Hi Hob,

You can't argue with Power = Torque * Rotational Velocity (frequency or RPM), can you? Then my post #3 stands. I disagree with how you relate your paper to dynamos. If you were correct, then motors would tend to be very slow machines and generators be very fast machines which is clearly not the case in practice.

You are the one putting forth the hypothesis; the burden of proof is yours. My experience tells me that your second quote in my post #5 is an invalid conclusion drawn from what may be a completely valid paper. I am not arguing the paper.* edit: I just rechecked your paper and see that the paragraph to which I object is in fact included as 5. Conclusion. So I guess I do take issue with your paper.

Regards,

bi
Have you noticed that the torque to power ratio differ between different motors?
That the ratio gets higher as the motor gets bigger?
Do you agree that its beneficial to have a motor with high torque to power ratio?
Do you agree that its beneficial to have a generator with low torque to power ratio?

/Hob
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  #9  
Old 11-20-2015, 08:04 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Motor questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by nilrehob View Post
Have you noticed that the torque to power ratio differ between different motors?
Sure, it varies with the speed of the motor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nilrehob View Post
That the ratio gets higher as the motor gets bigger?
It is actually the other way round. The higher torque motors need to be larger as they require more flux and/or current density at the air gap.

Often times the higher speed motor with a gear reducer makes more sense for a high torque application. Ever notice the EV motors? Small for output power and high RPM while being very efficient.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nilrehob View Post
Do you agree that its beneficial to have a motor with high torque to power ratio?
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nilrehob View Post
Do you agree that its beneficial to have a generator with low torque to power ratio?
No.

bi
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  #10  
Old 11-20-2015, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Sure, it varies with the speed of the motor.



It is actually the other way round. The higher torque motors need to be larger as they require more flux and/or current density at the air gap.

Often times the higher speed motor with a gear reducer makes more sense for a high torque application. Ever notice the EV motors? Small for output power and high RPM while being very efficient.



No.



No.

bi
OK, but I'm glad you liked the paper.

/Hob
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  #11  
Old 11-22-2015, 04:24 PM
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Minor changes to paper 1-4,
paper 5 had the experiment redone with more coils.

You can find all papers here:
https://sites.google.com/site/nilreh...entary-physics

/Hob
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Old 11-26-2015, 01:25 PM
seychelles seychelles is offline
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I like your utube NILREHOB , i could not track the experiment with the bifilar winding..
But i have posted an idea that will increase the magnetic field..Let me know if it will work.. i will test it myself using the clear plastic tube, that was simply brilliant..
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File Type: png MAGNETIC AMPLIFICATION.png (16.3 KB, 25 views)
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  #13  
Old 11-26-2015, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seychelles View Post
I like your utube NILREHOB , i could not track the experiment with the bifilar winding..
But i have posted an idea that will increase the magnetic field..Let me know if it will work.. i will test it myself using the clear plastic tube, that was simply brilliant..
You should absolutely do your own tests
Otherwise, please look at our tests with coil d and g in the paper.

/Hob
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  #14  
Old 11-26-2015, 09:30 PM
Dwane Dwane is offline
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Parameters

Quote:
Originally Posted by nilrehob View Post
You should absolutely do your own tests
Otherwise, please look at our tests with coil d and g in the paper.

/Hob
Hello nilrehob,
Interesting, however, I am mindful of the need to hold a parameter constant so as to test other conditions, etc. You make the assumption of increased copper. As you might know silver is a better conductor than copper. I am attaching an old study into electromagnetics by Klopsteg. Perhaps you have heard of him. His study uses a few tricks for the purpose of novelty. However, there is no mistaking Klopsteg has a scientific mind. He has kept the Iron mass constant. which you do not seem to do in your experiments. I could be wrong there.

Another area you might want to investigate where I am looking for time to explore is the use of Heusler Alloys as core material for electromagnetic fields. Iron has the 2 tesla limitation. Whereas one of the heusler alloys with manganese does not have this constraint.

Enjoy! Klopsteg is fun especially as a teaching aid!
https://books.google.com/books?id=wN...hanics&f=false

Cheers

Dwane
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Last edited by Dwane; 11-26-2015 at 09:37 PM.
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  #15  
Old 12-02-2015, 09:36 AM
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nilrehob nilrehob is offline
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There is a new version of paper 5 out with added sections.
Paper 1-4 have only minor changes.
You find them at:
https://sites.google.com/site/nilreh...entary-physics

If anyone would like to help with spelling, grammar, wording, content, whatever,
please go to github and contribute:
https://github.com/boherlin/elementary-physics

We have also made a bitcoin-account for donations.
But we're not sure its working, no donations yet..
If anyone could send a tiny-weeny satoshi we would be thrilled.
Account number at the end of the papers.

/Hob
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  #16  
Old 12-02-2015, 04:45 PM
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Ouch, fixed a big error in ch 5, another version is out,
interesting how some errors only get caught after it gets public.

/Hob
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