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  #61  
Old 08-31-2015, 06:17 AM
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Hey Turion

Yes I made my diagram to soon and knew I was getting the cart before

the horse knowing that picking over the Mack quotes should be first and

for most. It's just that I knew I would make a mess of putting his posted

thoughts in chronological order. You did that far better because you

are much more advanced in magnet motor design. I depend on your

help and look for your lead.

I read some of this MACK info again and this prompted me to change

the stator magnet polarity on the attraction side and the rotor polarity

as well. Next it looks like I need to be moving a rotor magnet off center.

Now I have a starting place and will continue to think on this till I have

settled on how this works. Later I'll have a magnet motor I can run

power off of

You are in the lead Sir.
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  #62  
Old 08-31-2015, 06:34 AM
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Nothing wrong with your diagram so far. Just needs things added to it. I have been over and over and over the information that has been presented and there is at least one critical question I do not yet have an answer for.

The ramps are between the stator magnets. There is a magnet on the ramps and a shunt on the repelling magnet. But is the magnet on the ramp the stator magnet, or are there stator magnets in ADDITION to the magnets on the ramps? This question is never clearly answered in any statement made so far, and I didn't ask when I had the chance.

If you read exactly what was written he said to "balance the 2 magnets on the rotors with the 2 magnets on the stator" and THEN add a ramp, but he also said a "repelling magnet at the end of a curved ramp on the stator." For now my assumption is that there are two magnets on the rotor and two magnets on the curved ramps that make up the stator. Of course I am probably wrong.

Dave
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  #63  
Old 08-31-2015, 07:45 AM
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Well the way it is bouncing around in my head is this. Mack spent

sometime focusing on balancing the repulsive and attraction forcing

and then he would refer us to the Bedini version, correct? Not only

that we should balance between the two forces but also that one

force is stronger than the other. So Mack gave us a pointer to move

the stronger force side that is the rotor magnet over so as to be

able to accomplish this balancing act. Now after all of this instruction

of balancing and saying the bedini version is close, I can't see where he

is setting us up to add more magnets all around the circle in the end.

He has been telling us to balance forces first then go from there.

Once the balancing is done and the near zero cogging Mack is saying

that we then can go on to stage two.


Thats how I heard Mack. Also that the ramps curve away from the rotor.

I need to go back and read many times. If my thinking changes as I

reread this session of hints, I will be back.

Thanks Dave.


MACK QUOTE:

We are restricted to the single rotor and stator magnet for magnetic sources, and we have the ramp itself. No other magnets or mechanical mechanisms are available
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  #64  
Old 08-31-2015, 09:14 AM
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Hi all,

attached just a rough hand drawing. Not included is the distance between a stator magnet and the next ramp, (in case of more than 2 setups around the motor), which should be equal to 1.5 - 2 times the distance between rotor magnet and ramp at the widest point.

I have not added the bent down part of the ramp as I'm having a hard time getting Madmacks last part. The induced poles are clear but some sentences I'm struggling with.
If you move (slide) a magnet over an iron bar with a spacer in between the only forces I see are:

-attraction towards the bar as the magnet approaches it

-constant force as you slide along

-magnet attracted back as it wants to leave the bar

I can't see any force that wants to hold the magnet in the middle…

Mario
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File Type: jpg Madmagnet.jpg (177.6 KB, 145 views)
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  #65  
Old 08-31-2015, 10:11 AM
shylo shylo is offline
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Hi All, If you take a flat piece of steel, put a ring or cylinder magnet on it at one end , the magnet will roll past the middle of the length of steel(due to momentum) , but it will return and come to rest in the middle.
I think Mac uses the momentum caused by the pivoting ramp to pull the magnet past the middle and then some how lets go?
I always tried with only rotating magnets and stationary levers, I never thought of stationary magnets.
Starting to think I might have missed something, I think I'll give it another try.
Keep the idea's coming , even if they aren't right ,they make you think.
Thanks artv
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  #66  
Old 08-31-2015, 02:41 PM
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Mario,
According to MY understanding, that's the most accurate drawing I have seen of what we need to build. The entire mechanism of the ramp plus stator magnet can occupy no more than 45% of of the circumference of the circle created by the stator, and might need to be just a little LESS, probably about 40-43%, otherwise the beginning of the next ramp will touch the magnet at the end of the first ramp, and we can't have THAT.

If this works, here is my understanding of the how and the why of it. You would have to give the device a push to start, but as the two magnets on the rotor rotate, they are attracted to the steel at the beginning of the ramp. The physical design of the ramp causes the magnets to accelerate to the point where one magnet is in attraction mode and the other is in repulsion mode. There is a shunt on the repulsion mode magnet which allows the attraction mode just a slight bit more reactive force. (I believe from MY experimenting that attraction is STRONGER than repulsion so you many not even NEED a shunt, but we will see) So this tiny extra bit of attraction vs repulsion PLUS the momentum of the two rotating magnets carries the attracting magnet on the rotor PAST the attracting magnet on the stator. (If these 2 magnets are too close together, this will NOT happen, so spacing is critical.) This gets us past the "sticky point". Now we have the repulsion of the two magnets on the opposite side pushing the two magnets apart and the attraction (stronger) trying to reverse the direction of the rotor. But momentum won't let that happen. In ADDITION, you now have the attraction of BOTH rotor magnets to the new beginning of the next set of steel ramps. Repulsion+attraction to ramp+attraction to ramp + momentum is greater than attraction of magnet to magnet. So the rotor continues to turn and the process repeats.

As you can see from this example, there are many things that have to be EXACTLY right for it to accelerate. The rake of the ramp must speed up the rotating magnets enough to give them the momentum to get past the two magnets attracting each other. The distance between the two attracting magnets must be enough that their attraction does not stop the forward progress of the rotor.

Another thought I have had as I have looked at this is that you might want STRONGER magnets on the rotor that are equal in force to each other, and weaker magnets on the stator that are equal to each other. This would give you MORE attraction of the rotor to the ramps, and thus MORE acceleration, yet the same attraction and repulsion at the end of the ramp to get past the sticky point.

Anyway, those are my thoughts at this point. I am playing with a small version of this right now. I don't have pieces of steel that are thicker at one end than the other to use as my stator ramps, so I cut wood into the curved shape I wanted and bent some strip steel into the same curved shape and screwed it to the wood. Still getting it all put together. Will shoot some video when I have something reasonable to show that I am actually BUILDING this thing. Oh, Lowes has some small square ceramic magnets with holes in the center you might use to create a working model. I have a bunch in my drawer. I will be trying them out to see what I can see before I order a bunch of expensive magnets. I also have a TON of even smaller neos that I could stick on those ceramic magnets to increase their power if necessary.

Dave
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  #67  
Old 08-31-2015, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Mario,
According to MY understanding, that's the most accurate drawing I have seen of what we need to build. The entire mechanism of the ramp plus stator magnet can occupy no more than 45% of of the circumference of the circle created by the stator, and might need to be just a little LESS, probably about 40-43%, otherwise the beginning of the next ramp will touch the magnet at the end of the first ramp, and we can't have THAT.
I think MadMack said his was 30 degrees in an 8 pole motor, I may be wrong, but what's important is that the distance between stator magnet and the next ramp is 1.5 - 2 times the distance between ramp and rotor magnet at its widest point.

Quote:
If this works, here is my understanding of the how and the why of it. You would have to give the device a push to start, but as the two magnets on the rotor rotate, they are attracted to the steel at the beginning of the ramp. The physical design of the ramp causes the magnets to accelerate to the point where one magnet is in attraction mode and the other is in repulsion mode. There is a shunt on the repulsion mode magnet which allows the attraction mode just a slight bit more reactive force. (I believe from MY experimenting that attraction is STRONGER than repulsion so you many not even NEED a shunt, but we will see) So this tiny extra bit of attraction vs repulsion PLUS the momentum of the two rotating magnets carries the attracting magnet on the rotor PAST the attracting magnet on the stator. (If these 2 magnets are too close together, this will NOT happen, so spacing is critical.) This gets us past the "sticky point". Now we have the repulsion of the two magnets on the opposite side pushing the two magnets apart and the attraction (stronger) trying to reverse the direction of the rotor. But momentum won't let that happen. In ADDITION, you now have the attraction of BOTH rotor magnets to the new beginning of the next set of steel ramps. Repulsion+attraction to ramp+attraction to ramp + momentum is greater than attraction of magnet to magnet. So the rotor continues to turn and the process repeats.

As you can see from this example, there are many things that have to be EXACTLY right for it to accelerate. The rake of the ramp must speed up the rotating magnets enough to give them the momentum to get past the two magnets attracting each other. The distance between the two attracting magnets must be enough that their attraction does not stop the forward progress of the rotor.
this is why I have also added the shunt AFTER the attracting magnets to help this, like MadMack explained.

Quote:
Another thought I have had as I have looked at this is that you might want STRONGER magnets on the rotor that are equal in force to each other, and weaker magnets on the stator that are equal to each other. This would give you MORE attraction of the rotor to the ramps, and thus MORE acceleration, yet the same attraction and repulsion at the end of the ramp to get past the sticky point.

Anyway, those are my thoughts at this point. I am playing with a small version of this right now. I don't have pieces of steel that are thicker at one end than the other to use as my stator ramps, so I cut wood into the curved shape I wanted and bent some strip steel into the same curved shape and screwed it to the wood. Still getting it all put together. Will shoot some video when I have something reasonable to show that I am actually BUILDING this thing. Oh, Lowes has some small square ceramic magnets with holes in the center you might use to create a working model. I have a bunch in my drawer. I will be trying them out to see what I can see before I order a bunch of expensive magnets. I also have a TON of even smaller neos that I could stick on those ceramic magnets to increase their power if necessary.

Dave
Mario
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  #68  
Old 08-31-2015, 04:21 PM
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I think many of you are missing the point. If your magnets are not equal in strength,( and they do vary quite a bit even if they are identical), then it will be extremely hard to balance your attraction and repulsion. The only other variables is the distance at which the magnets are positioned. You can balance your system by moving the attraction magnet closer or farther away. You can also balance by moving the ramps closer or farther away. Some of these things are only determined by experimentation. I think that is what he is saying, to play around with a two magnet rotor and stator to determine the relationship between the two forces. ONLY after you achieve balance and no cogging(sticky point), then move to the next stage. When I have time I will build this configuration and determine the parameters of it. I know it will work, as John Bedini's motor works. As it becomes more complicated when more magnets and ramps are used is when you will see a real force to power a generator or m3chanical devices. Good Luck. stealth
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  #69  
Old 08-31-2015, 04:51 PM
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Stealth,
All the rotor magnets should be as close to the same as possible. All the stator magnets should be as close to the same as possible.

In my OPINION (not fact) it is not necessary that the rotor magnets and the stator magnets be EQUAL in attraction or repulsion to each other. In fact, there may be some advantages to them NOT being the same, for instance a strong attraction of the rotor magnet to the ramp, while the stator magnet at the end of the ramp is weaker, allowing the rotor magnet to fly by. I'm not sure about that, but it does make a kind of sense to me. Weaker magnets could allow for steep, short ramps with weaker magnets in very CLOSE proximity to the rotor magnets without a terrible amount of attraction to provide a sticky point. At least this has been my experience on OTHER builds. As long as the attraction between two magnets on one side is balanced with the repulsion of the two magnets on the opposite side.

MadMack may be the only one who can say for sure....until some models get built.

Dave
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  #70  
Old 08-31-2015, 06:51 PM
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My apologies for the previous two cents...

Hello Guys,

Ok, I re read the whole thing again, went through that book...uploaded pics and so on so forth...

Dragon you are right, I had a fully repulse motor previously..just like Bedini (Not BeNdini Tachyoncatcher...)

I believe MadMack is trying for Us to define a "Single Module" first, based on Two Poles which we need to perfectly balance to zero magnetic cogging - dragging...

First off, Attraction and Repulsion are Two completely different forces, and just based on the "Traveling Distance" of each one's Vectors...Attraction has a "Dead Point" , a Dead End where it DIES and rotor will stick...while Repulsion has NO Dead End...infinite I would say as long as the forces are present and a relative distance maintained.

Based on the above fact...We can not just treat both forces in a perfectly "Symmetrical" disposition (mirrored 180º apart) Stators related to Rotor magnets, and be able to ever obtain a balance that way...I don't know if everyone understand my point...so I made the following CAD:

[IMG][/IMG]

If you all notice the Stator (Magnet and Ramp) on the Attract side is slightly moved towards rotation sense...in order that Repulse force and attract force would be traveling around same timing and not attraction setting a brake on rotation before Repulse Force starts decreasing just because both stators were identically set in a Symmetrical way...

We could even "Delay" the Attract Dead Point (Brake applied, Sticky Point, etc) by turning that Ramp the other way around like below:

[IMG][/IMG]

In conclusion...IMHO if we set both stators perfectly aligned with each rotor magnets at 180º (in line) we will never be able to pass the dead end lock on the attract side...remember that both rotor magnets are identical in strength...however, no matter how strong repulsion would be...once a couple of Neo´s N-S Locks in...no way jose they would be broken apart by repulse forces.

Hope this would be of some help...to keep playing with little magnetic motors...

Ufopolitics



EDIT 1:

There is a mistake in the 30º rotation angle from rotor magnets on above Diagrams...I did not consider the main center line bisecting both poles but the side or Bloch Wall...so they are less inclined.
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  #71  
Old 08-31-2015, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''


I don't have pieces of steel that are thicker at one end than the other to use as my stator ramps

Dave
Eventually we will all need some form of iron that can be used for ramps

that can be made exactly the same for each arm. Lamination of thin

metal is how transformers have been made so as not to acquire a build

up of magnetism when coils induce a magnetic field into the metal

all day long as it runs. Identical parts.

Also the thin pieces would all be easily cut the same and then pressed

together in the form or desired shape. Of course we all know that, I am

making sure that those who peer into this discussion realize that just any

steel would ultimately become more and more magnetic as the motor

ran and begin to slow down and then stop.


The only iusse left would be how to cut thin strips of lamination say from

an old M.O.T. without leaving a masses burr that would inhibit alignment

of the stack of parts.

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Old 08-31-2015, 08:50 PM
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set ramp positions vs dynamic

Hi All, If I understand Mack's method correctly, I believe the pivoting ramps are only moved to control speed (prevent runaway accel), and to shut down or turn off the motor. I don't think that they are free to move around during operation.

As usual, What do I know? I am not the one sharing the knowledge of a working device here.
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Old 08-31-2015, 09:07 PM
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Additional comment scrutiny

UFO, thanks for the spell check. I believe Mack was referencing a more symmetrical form between the rotor and stator magnets than you represent by his statement:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMack View Post
The rotor inertia carries the rotor magnet fully under and slightly past the attracting stator magnets center line. At this same instant, the rotor magnet at the opposite side, 180 degrees away has traveled slightly past the center line of the repelling stator magnet...
RE: Repelling stator magnet ramp.
Macks comments in this area lead to the impression he was using some kind of mechanical shunts. I refer to this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMack View Post
...Remember how I said that as a rotor magnet is accelerating towards an attracting magnet, the repelling magnets at the opposite side were neutralizing the pull of the attracting magnet? A shunt on the repelling stator magnet similar to the Bedini drawing will kill some of this neutralization and add to the torque. You only need the neutralizing action of the repelling magnets after they pass their center lines. Any neutralizing affect you can eliminate before that point is beneficial. Likewise reducing back drag attraction on the attracting set, with a shunt on the other side of this magnet from its ramp, can also benefit....
RE: Stator Magnets
No where, that I can find does Mack say the stator magnet's magnetic axis should be aligned with the rotor axle. He does say early on that his motor was similar to the Bedini drawing Dave posted, but that the ramps and shunting was different. He expressed the different angle for the rotor magnets, but never referenced the stator magnet angles. Guess that one is up to experimentation. -- Correction -- See Post #50. Experimentation is recommended on angle and distance starting from rotor axle alignment.

Good Luck,

Randy
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Old 08-31-2015, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tachyoncatcher View Post


RE: Stator Magnets
No where, that I can find does Mack say the stator magnet's magnetic axis should be aligned with the rotor axle. He does say early on that his motor was similar to the Bedini drawing Dave posted, but that the ramps and shunting was different. He expressed the different angle for the rotor magnets, but never referenced the stator magnet angles. Guess that one is up to experimentation.

Good Luck,

Randy

Re read Mack's post #50...

Take care

Ufopolitics
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Old 08-31-2015, 11:25 PM
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kenssurplus,
I believe you are right. They pivot ONLY so you can make adjustments and are then locked in place while the rotor is turning.

Dave
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Old 08-31-2015, 11:41 PM
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Yes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
Re read Mack's post #50...

Take care

Ufopolitics
Thanks! Ufopolitics.

Randy
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Old 08-31-2015, 11:58 PM
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Something else to consider

He also said the following:
"To save some time and effort later, when you set up this test rig you should put the stator magnets in a mounting block that can be repositioned as needed. You will want to try different angles and rotor clearances with these.

Dave
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Old 08-31-2015, 11:58 PM
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Hi Dave , I have to disagree, If the approaching magnet to the ramp, is a N pole, and the ramp has a magnet of the same polarity N at the far end, That means the closer end will be south , which will cause acceleration of the approaching magnet. If the field of the attracting force is weak enough ,inertia will carry it through.
Forcing the ramp to pivot away, and then the next approaching will draw the ramp back to it's start point.
I don't think any thing can be locked ,it needs momentum to carry it through.
Not sure I'm right ,just the way I see it.
artv
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Old 09-01-2015, 12:06 AM
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Statement

Shylo,
Look to the statement I posted above. What is the need to try different angles if the ramp pivots as the rotors turn? The only reason to try different angles is if the ramp is in a fixed position and you are trying different angles to get the best one. But that's a conclusion based on statements, not a FACT.


I went through everything that was said several times and tried to list all the FACTS, and I am trying to make all my decisions based on them. Doesn't mean I'm right though. LOL
Dave
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Old 09-01-2015, 01:51 AM
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But if the ramp is only allowed to pivot 10 deg.(just a random #) Then putting the magnet at different angels will change with every degree of attraction or repulsion. No?
artv

The ramps have to pivot ,without some form of movement the thing will just come to a balance point.
You have to either push it or pull it , a magnet will travel past the sticky point ,but only for an instant ,then it returns to balance .
Interrupt the return to balance ,so it moves to the next ramp?
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Old 09-01-2015, 01:56 AM
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The one

thing that keeps me going is that we all know that the Bedini version

works to some degree and is a starting point to learn by. What Mack

has suggested to me would be similar to going from and single transistor

in PWM to a darlington pair. In other words it's the same thing only

improved. Knowing that the foundation is sound keeps me trying.


Mack wanted us to learn the attraction VS repulsion balancing first

and like Mack said, No two magnets are the same so balancing means

adjusting their distances so cogging is virtually eliminated.

This is why Mack keeps saying TRY IT! DO IT! Balance it! Because Mack

has had to find out that the field strengths of magnets need to be close

to one another especially on the rotor. The rotor magnets are harder

to adjust and if a rotor magnet is working well with 1 of the 4 positions

(I say 4 positions because in the end each pole has 4
stations for a total of 8)

at .60 of and inch then station 2 if stronger than station 1

might need to be .80 of and inch to balance that set of magnets.

This is very hard to explain, so I am going to just say it. All magnets

must be very close to the same strength to get a no cogging rotor.



This is what Mack has repeatedly stress the importance of doing the 2

pole setup first. As more poles are added then the more critical the

tolerances become.

An 8 pole magnet motor will require high tolerance. This means that

all magnets must be the same as the next one so the gaps can be

adjusted nearly all the same. Without that the rotor magnets will

cog and no balancing with be attained.


Now the question is, if I make an 8 pole next year where can I get 16

magnets all the same strength?

You know what this reminds me of? When I built the Bedini multi channel

oscillators John says you need transistors all the same or close, so he

would buy 1000 parts and sort through them till he had parts all the same.


Now a 2 pole will teach us all about what i am stating.

Think about the 8 stations.Each rotor magnet encounters all 8 stator

positions and if rotor magnet 2 is more powerful than rotor magnet one

then stator gaps could never reach a happy medium.

This might be why magnet motors have not reached a practical stage

based on the fact that very few have the patience nor can they

grasp the complexity.


As for me 2 poles is enough.
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Old 09-01-2015, 03:22 AM
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shylo,
I must still respectfully disagree. When I first posted the Bedini picture Mac said it was just missing the OPPOSITE side magnet and ramp.. The Bedini device does NOT pivot.

He also said this:
"The stator magnets were infinitely adjustable using a sliding mount made of oak, fine thread rod, and jam nuts."
So he is sliding his ramps in and out to get them in the right position, or at least that's how it appears to me. But most importantly, when you have a magnet on the rotor attracting a magnet on a pivoting stator, what keeps the two from coming together unless you have stops? Nowhere in any of his descriptions did he mention stops, and a shunt will not keep the two from coming together. In fact, the shunt will ALSO be attracted to the rotor magnet. Without stops, the pivoting ramp with the magnet on it will continually drag against the rotor. There is nothing that makes it go back into its original position.

As to what powers it...I believe it can be summed up in his simple statement:
"What is needed is less magnetic drag than the torque the ramps can provide."

The ramps accelerate the magnets on the rotor, the stator magnets do NOT want to have enough attraction to mess that up.

Again, you may be right, but I will approach it from this direction rather than from yours, and if we begin working on two opposite ends, perhaps we can both reach a middle where everything works. Anyway, I have contributed as much to this discussion as I can. Now it is time for me to shut up and build.

Dave
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  #83  
Old 09-01-2015, 05:11 AM
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Hey UFO

This is what I think should be done. A is identical to B

What we want is to go just past the dead zone or just before, I

don't really know. C makes the most sense to me.



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Old 09-01-2015, 05:26 AM
MadMack MadMack is offline
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Hi guys,

I have some unexpected free time so will try to catch things up.

Starting at Randy's post #60. Correct about the ramp bend, but keep in mind that is optional and in any case should be tested later in the development sequence. No need to worry about it until after a baseline has been established.

Everyone please keep in mind that as you go you will get all sorts of ideas, but please try to keep it simple. It's easy to over complicate things and end up getting discouraged.

BroMikey, post #61. Perfect starting point. Are you sure about that rotation direction? I'm not saying it's wrong, just be sure. Notice that if you flip the rotor over the magnet angles slant the opposite way? Makes it real easy to test one vs. the other after a ramp is in place. It also makes it easy to put the rotor in backwards during a reassembly.

Dave post #62. Allow me to clarify. If a shunt is used on the attracting magnet it will not look like the Bedini shunt on his repelling ramp & magnet.

Dave post #64. One stator magnet at the closest part of each ramp. No other magnets on a ramp, unless you have discovered something that I did not.

BroMikey post #65. A stator magnet is not moved over to balance, but closer or farther away from the shaft centerline.

Mario #66. That scale is close for a single rotor with 8 magnets. I don't agree with the ramp shape I see. Not at all. I used a uniform thickness right up to the stator magnets.

For all of you to determine in testing: Does the ramp butt up to the side of the stator magnet or does it go underneath a stator magnet? The answer to that is not a hard fast rule to follow. What works best for your particular stator magnets is the correct answer.

Shylo # 67. The ramps do not pivot every time a rotor magnet passes. See post #74 by kenssurplus, that is the correct interpretation.

Dave #68. That comes close to nailing it. On the two pole, both rotor magnets will encounter their respective ramps at the same moment. All rotor magnets need to be as close to the same strength as practical. To try to illustrate what I mean, if a single iron block was placed close to the outer edge of the rotor, then as the rotor rotated, each rotor magnet would measure the same pull toward that iron block. All stator magnets must also be as close to the same strength as practical. When I say to balance the forces, I mean the actual forces applied by the rotor and stator magnets, not their magnetic strength in gauss.

Mario #69. Correct. But again, not written in stone.

Stealth #70. Regarding balancing methods. There are additional ways. I will elaborate a little later.

Dave #71. Exactly. As long as balance is achieved. This is the baseline setup to return to when experiments don't pan out.

Ufo #72. Yes the 2 pole is a single module. Interesting that you phrased it like that.
Attraction and repulsion, I do not quite agree with your description although I understand what you mean. I would describe like this, neither has a dead end. Rather both have a center point of maximum strength, tapering off with distance from that center.

In my 2 pole builds the stator magnets are 180 degrees apart. Forces are balanced by other means than depicted in your drawings. Now having said that, I never tried what your drawings show!

BroMikey #73. You can use ordinary strap iron or flat hot roll steel to experiment with ramp designs on the 2 pole. Transformer iron is needed when you transition to the motor build as you noted.

Kenssurplus #74. Correct.

Tachyoncatcher #75. Mechanical(?) shunts, just ordinary iron. Hot roll mild steel or bar stock is fine. As long as it will carry the desired amount of flux.


Posts #76-84. I believe the rest of the posts through #84 have been addressed, but I want to stress that there is no need to buy a bunch of magnets just to get 4 that work.

Mack
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Old 09-01-2015, 05:28 AM
MadMack MadMack is offline
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Tuning a magnet

Do all of you have the Davis book? Go back to that section on induction by the influence of a Magnet and read it again. This time think about what is said in these parts.

Page 63-64, paragraph 109 and exp. 15. Paragraph 111 and fig. 41.

Page 66, paragraph 112 and fig. 45.

The strength of a magnet pole may be increased by the inductive influence of iron or decreased by adding reluctance (fig. 45). In other words, tuned.

For advanced consideration. (fig 41)
It can also be seen that a pole of a magnet can be directed to the end of shaped iron, and when redirected in this manner will lose some of it's strength. Give this one some extra thought along with the outer pole of the stator magnets. You don't have to take advantage of this, unless you want to.

Mack
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Old 09-01-2015, 05:55 AM
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Thanks MAD MACK you are dynamite to pop in like this.

I was just about to go over your previous materials like these quotes.

Really I am just beginning to get caught up on all of the facts.

For example @ ALL

This is a first entry by MADMACK and I want to do his quotes a little

different than Dave did. I want to do quotes for rehash in context,

that is the context of that installment. Then do another set of quotes

later. I will go back and look at all of your new directives MADMACK

I'll be back

You sure are takin a load off MADMACK.


The MAD MACK QUOTES



All you have to do is set up your magnets for a net 0 magnetic pull. That means for every set of magnets that are in attraction you simply provide a set that is in repulsion. Think about that, as one rotor / stator magnet set is attracting each other, there is another set that are repelling each other. The two forces cancel each other.


You must have magnetic attraction so where does it come from? It comes from iron ramps between the stator magnets.


an opposing ramp with it's attracting magnets for balance. Other than that, the principles are all there including a useful magnetic shunt on the stator magnet. See? It's not even my idea, I just applied symmetry to it. The only tricky part is maintaining the magnetic symmetry at the end of the ramps next to the magnets.


You do this by placing the rotor magnet so its magnetic axis is not through the center line of the rotor shaft.


Short ramps will provide more torque than long ramps.


One set of magnets every 45 degrees works well. Magnets at 0, 90, 180, and 270 degrees in attraction. Magnets at 45, 135, 225, and 315 degrees in repulsion. This balances the side forces to the rotor shaft and stator housing.


Or Magnet pairs every 60 degrees will also work instead of every 45 Degrees.

Other details:

1. I used square or rectangular magnets, not round.

2. The magnets on the rotor all have the same polarity facing out to the stator.

3. There must be an equal number of magnet sets in attraction and repulsion at the same time.

4. The ramps pivot at their center lines. This provides a means to throttle, stop, or reverse the motor rotation.

5. The ramps are steel with little or no magnetic retention.

6. The rotor and stator are nonmagnetic material. Do not use aluminum or any material that will develop eddy currents.

There it is. All of it. Now I can rest with a clear conscience. You can take it at face value or not, your choice.

Best regards to all of you,
Mack




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Old 09-01-2015, 08:03 AM
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BroMikey BroMikey is online now
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Attention serious builders. Please read this in all your extra

time. MadMack is forwarding this good read so put your

thinkin caps on straight. Okay I am seeing that you were talking

about tuning the magnet and not moving the magnets around to

get a set of 4 magnets the same. I was thinking wrong. Thanks for

correcting my would be tangent. I hate a meaningless tangent.

I have crossed out the false drawings.
















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Last edited by BroMikey; 09-01-2015 at 08:57 AM.
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  #88  
Old 09-01-2015, 09:44 PM
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Turion Turion is online now
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As I said in my last post, time for me to quit talking and start building. Now that I have something on my bench to really start playing with, let me make a couple suggestions. Take them for what they are worth. I'm not trying to dictate here, just share what I have learned.

1. If you purchase magnets with a hole in them, make sure that hole is big enough to be able to use bolts or screws that are going to be strong enough to be used with neo magnets.
2. BOLT down the attracting stator magnet and work with adjusting the repulsive stator magnet.
3. Come up with a way of changing the angle of your rotor magnets without having to redo everything. A piece that will attach to your rotor as I am using is one way but not the ONLY way.
4. Make sure you have a way of making fine adjustments to one of your two stator magnets or you will NEVER get it to balance.

Having said all that, here is the video of what I have built, and you will see the small error I made that is keeping me from balancing my setup right now.

Two magnet rotor - YouTube

Dave
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Old 09-01-2015, 10:29 PM
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BroMikey BroMikey is online now
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That little video has answered a bunch of questions I had.

Now I see the rotation direction as Mack talked to me about

because I wasn't sure of which way this is to work. Also the 50

other questions have been laid to rest and we are not wasting

anytime here. Awesome Dave. Mack says your are the best

one to be able to explain what he said.


The rest of us will be generating about the same time. Please

lead the way.

I have also updated my diagram to include the proper direction

of rotation. Some magnets I ordered came in the mail today

but they don't have a hole in them.

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Old 09-01-2015, 11:36 PM
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Match YOUR Magnets!!

OK, I put a little plastic sleeve in there that is working for right now until I can get to a hardware store and see what I can find, but it seems to be working.

I do want to say something here. I wasn't so sure this whole thing's for real, because I am a born skeptic. My favorite saying has always been "Trust everyone, but always cut the cards." So basically, trust NO ONE. There are very few folks in this world I trust. I have been burned far to many times. But I am open minded enough to LISTEN to what people have to say, and then, if it seems plausible, I will build it for MYSELF and make my OWN assessment.You will not see me jumping on the bandwagon and supporting something that I have NOT seen working on my bench.

As to this device, I have NOT seen it working on my bench, because I have not been able to get it to balance yet. But I have seen how strong the magnets pull toward the ramp as they are rotating around, and I can see that if the magnets are neutral (balanced) this thing should work. That, in itself, has got me motivated.

So here is a second video. It is long and boring and more for MY records than anything else, but towards the end I set the rotor in specific positions, and it becomes VERY CLEAR that my two rotor magnets are NOT of the same strength. Very, VERY clear. SO I am going looking for two more "balanced" magnets. The way I will do this is simple. I will remove the attractive stator magnet. l will take ONE of the magnets off my rotor and hold the other one at the break point on the repulsion magnet. Then let it go and observe how far the magnet pushes it away. Try this several times to get an average and then measure that distance and record it. Then replace that magnet with another and repeat the process. I only have 12 magnets, but out of those 12 I should be able to find the best two that rotate the rotor equal distance when released. Just more things to add to my list of stuff to get done.
Two Magnet Rotor 2 - YouTube

Dave
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Last edited by Turion; 09-02-2015 at 12:25 AM.
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