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  #421  
Old 10-03-2015, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tachyoncatcher View Post
Mike,
In my opinion ----------------- The reasons for the split is to minimize the inducement from the stator magnets. So you see, we are not sharing the polarity of the stator magnet with the ramps. Quite the opposite.


What's worth repeating is there are two separate forces at work in this motor and are treated as separate with careful engineering and attention to geometry to keep them that way. The attractive force of a magnet to iron/steel and the balanced polarity forces of the magnets to each other. In my opinion---------------------------
Yes and I treasure your opinion Randy. It is clear that you have looked

at other magnet motors before, not me. I am a green horn.

I will have to digest these comments and let me say this after some

testing. You must be right because the ramps work on either side the

same way and if polatity is all that we have coming into play this

makes no sense at tall. Example. When I switch to repulsion using

the back of the stator magnet I get huge cogging. The smooth transition

I got on the attraction side is not there. However if I do the same thing

on both sides it works great. So my conclusion is that you are right

about polarity not being the source for the power stroke.

I don't know what to say. I need to time now. My ramps are misshapen

at present and need to order square magnets as well. Maybe roller

skate bearings and pull out my plastic sheeting. Brass bolts are cheap and

my milling cutter will be getting dusted off My lathe is not connected

up to 240vac but maybe I will spin up this small rotor on the big drill press

no problem. Very interesting.


Yes agreed Randy and thanks for your opinion right

when I am thinking on that subject and testing.

Induction WITH the forks is MAGIC. All other shapes are trash can objects.

Now that I have experienced the MAGIC and have felt it's effects I

will never be the same. Thanks Mack.

NOTE: I contacted K7J Magnetics for their technical bulletins.
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  #422  
Old 10-04-2015, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by tachyoncatcher View Post
Mike,
In my opinion you have to expand your thinking beyond the polarity. If we think only of polarity, we have balance. No rotation. I'll refer to a comment I made earlier in this thread:

The ramps on the attraction stator accelerates the rotor due to magnetic induction, not because the stator magnet is attracting.
Mike, when I refer to "magnetic induction" I'm talking about the attractive force between the rotor magnet and the iron, not the polarity. The reasons for the split is to minimize the inducement from the stator magnets. So you see, we are not sharing the polarity of the stator magnet with the ramps. Quite the opposite. The polarities of the stator and rotor magnets will come into play later. Once we have ramps that cause acceleration of the rotor with stator and rotor magnets in perfect balance.

What's worth repeating is there are two separate forces at work in this motor and are treated as separate with careful engineering and attention to geometry to keep them that way. The attractive force of a magnet to iron/steel and the balanced polarity forces of the magnets to each other. In my opinion, this is what makes this different from all the other "magnet motors" out there. No wasted movement to bias the magnetic fields.

Something to keep in mind, a magnet will seek the closest point to the middle of the iron mass. This is why we angle the ramps. The rotor magnet keeps trying to get closer by rotating to the smaller gap of the ramp. Simple.

Randy

Hello Randy,

I am sorry but there are some points you've mentioned above that I don't agree...

When we set the Ramp forks that close to Stator interacting pole, according to Mack's design...we can not ignore the field from that pole will be completely distorted/redirected towards the ramp ending forks, and that is Induction from Stator Pole to iron forks...

Now, by setting this Ramp to Stator Pole the way we have seen according to Mack's CAD...we are weakening that pole strength, related to the other side in repulsion...then repulsion prevails. And here is where the careful work of choosing the right size/mass Ramp that will eventually weaken...but not that much...in order that rotor will gain inertia and give us that desired "power stroke" after passing the attract point.

For example, the ramp I have shown previously does not work...it is too big...so it weakens the south pole from stator too much, to the point the repulse side becomes too strong to make that "acceleration jump" by itself...so no power stroke shown unless too much force is applied to rotor...which is absolutely not good...ramp should give us that required self acceleration gain to pass without that much effort from just getting slowly rotor magnet close to ramp...it should be like an "automatic pilot" in "resume speed" (self acceleration to previous speed)...

Mack writes about this when he makes that rig of a plate and a spring to test power strokes...from this point we will find out which ramp mass and shape will and not work...and once we have the right size ramp...then we could calculate the rotor size/circumference.

If You already have a completely balanced two poles...then you should have noticed that just by getting some way the ramp close to the attracting stator pole...the balance is broken...you take ramp off and balance is back again.


Regards


Ufopolitics
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  #423  
Old 10-04-2015, 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post

When we set the Ramp forks that close to Stator interacting pole, according to Mack's design...we can not ignore the field from that pole will be completely distorted/redirected towards the ramp ending forks, and that is Induction from Stator Pole to iron forks...


And here is where the careful work of choosing the right size/mass Ramp that will eventually weaken...but not that much...in order that rotor will gain inertia and give us that desired "power stroke" after passing the attract point.



For example, the ramp I have shown previously does not work...it is too big...


Ufopolitics
Yes I call it the magic. There is a place where balance still exists if my ramp

is not to big. I just made one today to big. But I made them very quickly.

I can make a ramp in minutes. I have some fancy metal chop table tools with

14" cutt off wheels. Big Big vices and this metal doesn't have a chance.


Just 30 minutes ago I have ascertained the same. Too big steels(PUN)

all the FUN out of the magic. Thanks UFO, Dido

confirmed!!
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  #424  
Old 10-04-2015, 09:18 PM
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Magnetic Fields

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Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
Hello Randy,

I am sorry but there are some points you've mentioned above that I don't agree...

When we set the Ramp forks that close to Stator interacting pole, according to Mack's design...we can not ignore the field from that pole will be completely distorted/redirected towards the ramp ending forks, and that is Induction from Stator Pole to iron forks...

Now, by setting this Ramp to Stator Pole the way we have seen according to Mack's CAD...we are weakening that pole strength, related to the other side in repulsion...then repulsion prevails. And here is where the careful work of choosing the right size/mass Ramp that will eventually weaken...but not that much...in order that rotor will gain inertia and give us that desired "power stroke" after passing the attract point.

For example, the ramp I have shown previously does not work...it is too big...so it weakens the south pole from stator too much, to the point the repulse side becomes too strong to make that "acceleration jump" by itself...so no power stroke shown unless too much force is applied to rotor...which is absolutely not good...ramp should give us that required self acceleration gain to pass without that much effort from just getting slowly rotor magnet close to ramp...it should be like an "automatic pilot" in "resume speed" (self acceleration to previous speed)...

Mack writes about this when he makes that rig of a plate and a spring to test power strokes...from this point we will find out which ramp mass and shape will and not work...and once we have the right size ramp...then we could calculate the rotor size/circumference.

If You already have a completely balanced two poles...then you should have noticed that just by getting some way the ramp close to the attracting stator pole...the balance is broken...you take ramp off and balance is back again.


Regards


Ufopolitics
Hi Ufo,
I agree the forks are induced by the close proximity of the stator magnets. However, through the experiments I've done I have observed the following.
  • The fork ends will always have a north pole coherency as the rotor moves past regardless of the nearby stator.
  • Balance is regained when both, opposing stators have a ramp.
Is it perfect? No. But it is very closed to what is was before the ramps where put into place.

Something else to think about. The magnet will be attracted to the ramp whether it is in front of the pole of the magnet or above and below, on the side of the magnet. Don't give up on your previous ramps just yet. Think about the ends having a north pole polarity and how the placement of that polarity will help us at the right time during rotation.

Something I have done and would suggest everyone to try. Remove your stators and move the rotor past a ramp. Let it be attracted and find dead center. This will show you, geometrically where the magnet starts to find resistive forces to movement. Hand move the rotor magnet in the direction it will be turning and feel the forces at work as it rotates. This will be a very enlightening exercise. I can tell you what to expect, as I have, but until you do it you won't believe it.

For the attraction side, when free wheeling, we want the magnet to stop on the ramp closer to where the attracting magnet would be. The fork reduces this back attraction by changing the attraction vectors. Mack is right. He has not shared what is needed to make this machine run. Only the long known principles behind its success. It is up to us to figure out the best geometry for these ramps. That is the key! I had my motor fully assembled and balanced. Twice! It is again apart as I maximize these damn ramps. This is a very dynamic build and we must always think about where those fields are moving. And move they do!

Mike: I'm jealous. It takes me hours to make those ramps with a jigsaw.

Good Luck with your build,

Randy
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  #425  
Old 10-05-2015, 01:32 AM
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Originally Posted by tachyoncatcher View Post


Remove your stators and move the rotor past a ramp. Let it be attracted and find dead center. This will show you, geometrically where the magnet starts to find resistive forces to movement. Hand move the rotor magnet in the direction it will be turning and feel the forces at work as it rotates. This will be a very enlightening exercise. I can tell you what to expect, as I have, but until you do it you won't believe it.
Exactly. No stator testing. The fork window area can not attract as

there is no metal in the field. When my angle is right the rotor won't stay

on the leading edge either. My tests show that when moving the ramp

near the rotor it goes right past and keeps going away from the leading edge.

It Ramps Everytime, it Ramps, meaning the ramp accelerates the

rotor forward into the window where no field exists so she keeps

on going.

I just landed some huge transformer metal Goodie goodie.
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  #426  
Old 10-05-2015, 01:38 AM
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Exactly. No stator testing. The fork window area can not attract as
there is no metal in the field. When my angle is right the rotor won't stay
on the leading edge either. My tests show that when moving the ramp
near the rotor it goes right past and keeps going away from the leading edge.
It Ramps Everytime, it Ramps, meaning the ramp accelerates the
rotor forward into the window where no field exists so she keeps
on going.
I just landed some huge transformer metal Goodie goodie.
So, are you saying that if you are holding the rotor still, near the narrow side of the ramp. You let go of the rotor, it will then accelerate beyond the ramp without trying to return to the ramp?

Randy
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  #427  
Old 10-05-2015, 09:31 AM
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So, are you saying that if you are holding the rotor still, near the narrow side of the ramp. You let go of the rotor, it will then accelerate beyond the ramp without trying to return to the ramp?

Randy
Yes, exactly. The only ramp I have that does that are the "Y" ramps.

The rest of them just go past and come right back.

I made another grain oriented ramp the right size today. I am not happy

with my round magnets and will have to order some square ones next week.

The elevation on the rotor is in order so i can get my tines under better

and give me a little room. I built this unit not knowing my magnets

would need to be held from the back pole and enough room above and

below to set up the "Y" ramps. I am cutting in the rotor for

tighter clearances as well. I am not ready for a video yet. Hang in

there Mack I hope you don't get bored to death in the mean time.

Can't wait for monday when K&J magnetics sends me their data

on magnetic flux contained in iron.
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  #428  
Old 10-05-2015, 01:31 PM
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Attraction mode ramps

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Originally Posted by BroMikey View Post
Yes, exactly. The only ramp I have that does that are the "Y" ramps.
That's great Mike. Now try this. Put your 2 rotor magnets and opposing stator magnets back on. With balance. Add that ramp to both sides. On the attraction side bend the tines behind the ramp a good distance BEFORE the attracting magnet. The bend angle should be 30-45 degrees. The attracting magnet's pull should be able to draw the rotor on past the ramp at this point. We want the ramp far enough to minimize the induction from the attracting magnet, yet close enough so when the rotor magnet reaches the end of the ramp the attracting magnet's influence is great enough to continue rotation. Take note, if your ramps are not thick enough, the bend will create a sticky spot. The magnet will see a thicker mass of metal at the bend. We do not want this. What we are doing with the bend is sending the traveling North pole behind the ramp and away from the rotor magnet so it does not slow the rotor's acceleration. This direction is for the attraction side only, leave the repelling side at full length for now. I use ramps on both sides to HELP maintain balance during testing.

I have not mentioned what has already been discussed regarding the ramp angles, curvature and fork. I assume everyone knows what to do in those previously hashed out areas.

Onward,

Randy
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  #429  
Old 10-05-2015, 06:05 PM
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Yes, exactly. The only ramp I have that does that are the "Y" ramps.

The rest of them just go past and come right back.
...
UH OH! Now you've gone and done it...
You've let the genie out of the bottle!
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  #430  
Old 10-05-2015, 08:09 PM
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UH OH! Now you've gone and done it...
You've let the genie out of the bottle!
U-Duh-Man MadMack God Bless You

Here is the information also in calculator form, pretty Kool

Good stuff, moving forward.

K&J Magnetics Blog


K&J Magnetics - Steel Plate Thickness Calculator
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Old 10-05-2015, 09:56 PM
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...Here is the information also in calculator form, pretty Kool
Good stuff, moving forward.
K&J Magnetics Blog
K&J Magnetics - Steel Plate Thickness Calculator
Thanks for that resource. Now that's a helpful post.

Randy
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  #432  
Old 10-06-2015, 02:29 AM
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Thanks for that resource. Now that's a helpful post.

Randy
Yeah Mack is a mad man to have used this non-stop until yer 4 way

flashers start blinkin. This is my kind of head game. All the lights are

turning on now for sure. The more I run the numbers the more I see

what size thickness on the ramps at what distance from the rotor

magnet. The repelling calculator does not work on square magnets.

Oh well gonna make it adjustable for fine tweaking.

So far with 1" X 1/2" X1/2" square magnets the calculator shows 15.89LBS

of force when two N42 magnets pass at a gap of 90 thousandths. To think

those itty bitty magnets pack that much wallop. I am dumb struck.

And it all cancels out and on top of that goes over into the ramps?

The LBS of pull for steel plate helps but we are also siphoning off flux

from the stator as well as all of the pull from the rotor.

Figure 50 percent more than the calculator shows just for openers.
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  #433  
Old 10-06-2015, 02:12 PM
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The Perfect Balancing Three Point Line...

Hello to All,

I have built a few of this Two Module set up...and it was very hard to find a perfect balancing...even measuring rotor magnets at front outer points to shaft...considering perfect 30º angles in both...and even so I still had some issues at 180º one side was fine while the other turn did not do it as the first.

So, I found out that even considering every single measurement for EACH Rotor Magnet, we still could be off by very small measures...but enough not to reach perfect balancing...

There is a VERY important Line we must trace when setting rotor magnets:

[IMG][/IMG]

On the CAD above is the Red line that runs from each cube outer corners-across at 180º- and this line MUST be passing through the VERY EXACT center of Rotor. So it is a Three Point Line.

And let me say this...even in a CAD Software...we build all this measurements for each rotor cube...even grouping and center pointing...plus rotating/duplications...we will have the error when tracing this red line...we will notice is off by not passing EXACTLY by the center of rotor...

Like I wrote above...You may think you have every measurement perfect and correct for each independent rotor magnet related to shaft measurements...HOWEVER, IF You do not run-trace this red line...they could be off by just 1-2 mm (and even much less than that) but would be enough to throw out your balance completely.

Once this line is perfect between three points, then the sweeping of cancelling forces is going to take place EXACTLY at every single degree of rotation...

Something else to check once we have rotor magnets perfect...is that each outer corner of the rotor cube should be EXACTLY passing by the same FACE area and coordinate from BOTH stators simultaneously (In the Opposite way, of course). This will tell us that both Stators are also aligned by that Red Line and related to mounting base straight line as well.

I felt I should write/share about this geometrical fact...to avoid frustration in not reaching your proper/perfect balancing...even though many of you may have considered this line in all your builds.


Regards


Ufopolitics
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  #434  
Old 10-06-2015, 03:18 PM
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@citfta

I believe you probably mean "112" rather than "122". Here is the link to your helpful post: http://www.energeticforum.com/279747-post112.html

Sincerely, and best of success in the search!

truesearch
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  #435  
Old 10-06-2015, 03:20 PM
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How perfect?

Madmack,
Judging from I Ufo's post, and from the many tests I've run, is it possible for a simple shop to build this test rig to perfect measurements?

Dave posted #14:
MadMack,
I would think that the tolerances needed for adjustment of distances to perfectly balance a rotor/staror combination like you are talking about (when magnets pull more than they push) require some pretty detailed machine work that most folks here are not going to be able to afford to have done and do not have the equipment to build on their own, so most builders have been eliminated from this project before we get out of the starting gate.

I'm not one to discourage, be negative, and never give up. But I did get the same square 1/2" rotor, and same 1/2" x 1" stator neos. Same ramp design cold then hot rolled steel. I just want to face reality here. I'm working with simple tools, no CNC machines or high cost precision equipment.

Don't want to waste space here, this thread is very important.

What do you suggest for us lower income replicators? And yes I've read and studied each post you've left us.

Thanks very much,
wantomake
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  #436  
Old 10-06-2015, 03:29 PM
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Why is this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by citfta View Post
I post 122 I already covered how important it is to get the two magnets at exactly 180 degrees apart. I also show in that post a picture and explanation for a simple and practical way to make sure your line is in the exact center of your rotor. Instead of pretty pictures I give you a hands on way of doing what you need to do. This method allowed me to get my rotor to magnetically balance perfectly with no cogging whatsoever.
Citfta,

Why is it you always have to literally "jump"?!

[IMG][/IMG]

First off, Your rotor magnets look like pills, round, small and flat...plus you are sitting them straight centered to the 180º line, when they are supposed to be set at 30º off.

The way you are doing it...my granddaughter could glue them.

When we are talking about Cube Magnets at 30º (as recommended by Mack) comes what I was writing about.

When you are setting a Cube at 30º there are a few points more to check than when using Tylenol pills straight on to 180 line.

Besides I am working in more than "A Pretty CAD Picture"...but in real models:

[IMG][/IMG]




Ufopolitics
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  #437  
Old 10-06-2015, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wantomake View Post
Madmack,
Judging from I Ufo's post, and from the many tests I've run, is it possible for a simple shop to build this test rig to perfect measurements?

Dave posted #14:
MadMack,
I would think that the tolerances needed for adjustment of distances to perfectly balance a rotor/staror combination like you are talking about (when magnets pull more than they push) require some pretty detailed machine work that most folks here are not going to be able to afford to have done and do not have the equipment to build on their own, so most builders have been eliminated from this project before we get out of the starting gate.

I'm not one to discourage, be negative, and never give up. But I did get the same square 1/2" rotor, and same 1/2" x 1" stator neos. Same ramp design cold then hot rolled steel. I just want to face reality here. I'm working with simple tools, no CNC machines or high cost precision equipment.

Don't want to waste space here, this thread is very important.

What do you suggest for us lower income replicators? And yes I've read and studied each post you've left us.

Thanks very much,
wantomake
My friend Wantomake...

I don't have a CNC...I only have a small Chinese lathe bought at Harbor Freight for 500.00...all the rest I am doing it by hand...I cut the ramps steel with a hand saw...even though I do have a few Dremels with carbide wheels...is more precise with a fine blade...

What you really need is precision...and to use feeler gauges that you could buy in any auto parts for less than 10.00...

I have made simple tools for alignment of this line...comprehending/inserting it in the center shaft, some kind of a clear plexiglass ruler with a perfectly traced line through center.

I am sorry if my post caused you to think is too hard to make but it is not...believe me.


Regards


Ufopolitics
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  #438  
Old 10-06-2015, 04:01 PM
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Hi Dufo,
I called you by whatever your "citfta" name means...

I did not called you "One Eyed Pea"...
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Old 10-06-2015, 04:43 PM
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Old 10-06-2015, 06:43 PM
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ok and thanks

Thanks my friend Ufo,
No it's ok to realize some builds take more than you think. Either I get meticulous like Madmack said at the start, or switch to one of ten other projects on my work benches.

I'm off today (61 years old my birthday) so started grinding and reshaping the ramp. Your cad helped me to relocate the rotor magnets to correct 30° angle on precisely draw lines. Then I'll attempt better holding brackets for both stators with adjustments for vertical and horizontal placement.

Lunch is over, back to this obsessive magnet motor,
wantomake
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Old 10-06-2015, 07:13 PM
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wantomake,
It says "Senior Member" by your name. Now we know why! LOL. As we are the SAME age, I can relate.

I am out of the country for two weeks and just finished moving my mom to California, so I haven't had any time to work on this, but have been scouting for metal and ways to get the ramps made. I have a friend with a CNC, so precision cutting of the parts is NOT an issue, once we have determined the proper shape, so I am following the discussions with interest. Once we have settled on something, I can get a set made to test.

Dave
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  #442  
Old 10-06-2015, 08:16 PM
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Wantomake,
I see Ufo already answered but I'll post this anyway.
Ufo is right, you need to get the rotor magnet sets as close to 180 degrees apart as you can, and his 3 point reference is spot on. It doesn't take a machine shop to do it, all I used to lay it out was a compass, a straight edge, and a 30-60-90 triangle. I found that a hobbyist's X-acto saw from the local hobby store was good for the sides of the magnet cutouts. Just be as accurate as you can when laying it out and cutting and be prepared to do some filing and shimming to get it just right.

This picture shows how I drew my layout. My reference for the angle is different than Ufo's but on a 12” rotor it's only 2.72 degrees different from his. It's more important to make all the angles the same.

Mack

PS. Hey, that's my age too. 62 anyway. There must be something about kids born in the early 50's, eh? Like fallout from the A-bomb tests?
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Old 10-06-2015, 08:17 PM
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What's up guys ? can you post now something that works ?
I'm very impatient
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Old 10-06-2015, 08:44 PM
MadMack MadMack is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boguslaw View Post
What's up guys ? can you post now something that works ?
I'm very impatient
Hey it's only been 5 weeks. After the initial skepticism there's a learning curve you know. Just this morning BroMikey made a statement about a momentous accomplishment, but for some reason it looks like nobody caught it except maybe tachyoncatcher.

Cheers
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Old 10-06-2015, 09:39 PM
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Ufopolitics Ufopolitics is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: US, Florida
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Keep watching video in the meanwhile we work...

Quote:
Originally Posted by boguslaw View Post
What's up guys ? can you post now something that works ?
I'm very impatient
Hey Bogus...

Impatient for something that works?

Then keep enjoying my video while we are all working here:



Magnet Motor Revelation


And by the way...give me at least one "Thumbs Up"...





Ufopolitics
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  #446  
Old 10-06-2015, 10:17 PM
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boguslaw boguslaw is offline
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Wondering why nobody is interested in patent I sent
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Old 10-06-2015, 11:35 PM
Stealth Stealth is offline
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Posts: 537
WOW, you guys are ancient. Just kidding. I am 63 and soon to be 64. I am watching these builds with much interest because over the years I have built many magnetic motors and have learned some valuable lessons from those builds. When I have time I will build this one too. For now I haven't any square neos, all round. I do have many square ceramic, low strength magnets. I will have to purchase some square neos before attempting this build. Good Luck. stealth
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Old 10-07-2015, 02:06 AM
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Cornboy 555 Cornboy 555 is offline
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[/IMG]

[/IMG]

[/IMG]
Hello, Mad Mack, and everyone working here.

I will put my hand up for oldfartedom, at 61, being a 1954 mod.

I have limited funds at the moment, starting a new life, and farm from scratch, but will have a go at Mack's motor, using an old Coil/motor testbed, I built years ago.

I can fit double 13" rotors in this and the build is sufficiently strong to have very close tolerances between rotor and stator magnets.

Need to wait for magnets to arrive before machining rotor.

Thanks for your disclosure Mack.

Warm Regards Everyone, Cornboy.
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Last edited by Cornboy 555; 10-07-2015 at 02:13 AM.
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Old 10-07-2015, 02:15 AM
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Cornboy 555 Cornboy 555 is offline
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Photo's.

Sorry can't get the images from Photobucket to stick.

Will try again. Cornboy.
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Old 10-07-2015, 02:35 AM
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Cornboy 555 Cornboy 555 is offline
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[/IMG]
Bugger!!, does anyone know what I am doing wrong, it used to work!.

Cornboy.
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