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  #61  
Old 06-11-2015, 05:24 PM
DavidE DavidE is offline
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dR-Green

Where did you say that the power was coming from to light these loads?

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  #62  
Old 06-11-2015, 05:51 PM
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It appears hard for you to consider that energy could be like air, its everywhere. I am quite sure before man, there was energy and not the other way around.
Not at all. It's hard for me to consider that air will jump into a balloon on it's own accord, when the pressure inside the balloon is greater than it is outside.

As far as single wire transmission is concerned I see no reason to believe or suspect that anything "unconventional" in terms of gaining energy from the environment is going on. It's just a transmission system. No power is transmitted that you did not input.

If you are using the earth as the transmission medium, which itself has a natural resonant frequency and various natural electrical activity, then it's conceivable that you might be able to work with it to your advantage, but that hypothesis requires tuning so that the whole thing becomes one continuous system.

The radiant energy patent is an entirely different principle and is not a tuned system. Stick a metal plate in the air and it will charge a condenser, but a transmission system is a transmission system, one wire, no wires, or however many wires as you like.
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  #63  
Old 06-11-2015, 05:54 PM
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dR-Green

Where did you say that the power was coming from to light these loads?

Limited to the diagram, Device G.

Otherwise, the power station...
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  #64  
Old 06-11-2015, 07:22 PM
DavidE DavidE is offline
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dR-Green

In general I can see no matter what inventor or what invention, in your view the ambient does not energetically participate in any way. In fact your view is even more implicit... if power shows up in the ambient, it was placed there by artificial means.

So is it your wave theory that has power jump from plate to plate on a capacitor to power a load (hairpin circuit)?
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  #65  
Old 06-11-2015, 07:37 PM
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  #66  
Old 06-11-2015, 07:57 PM
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Dollard on Electricity

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  #67  
Old 06-11-2015, 08:44 PM
wayne.ct wayne.ct is online now
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Regarding DavidE and dR-Green

One of you is being reasonable and carefully reading what the other is saying. The other of you is being argumentative and NOT carefully reading what the other is saying. Still, you are beginning to talk at cross purposes. It is obvious to me that during a thunderstorm the atmosphere at altitude is at a different potential than earth and a rather conventional device could be constructed to capture the "ambient" energy. THAT "ambient" energy could add up to a substantial amount with the correct device. Therefore, you are both right. At the same time however, you both appear to be very stubborn and hard headed. I hope you resolve your differences, but you are going to need a lot of "luck".
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  #68  
Old 06-11-2015, 08:47 PM
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I'm talking about single wire transmission, and I believe I've already said the radiant energy patent is based on receiving energy from the environment. Also that you may use natural activities to your advantage.

There is nothing to suggest that energy comes from the environment to cause a load to work with one wire.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikola Tesla
... In this experiment the entire energy supplied to the structure or capacity C had to pass through the lamp.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikola Tesla
By providing capacity in any way, so as to enable the lamp to take more energy, the potential required may be reduced at will.






Capacitors are used in high pass filters and for DC blocking because DC can't pass through the open circuit. But AC quite readily passes through. Bigger capacitance allows lower frequencies through. Cutoff frequency increases as capacitance is decreased. You hear it in effect every time you listen to music, as it's all filtered and EQ'd. That's how the electronic audio equipment works.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-pass_filter

1/4 wave resonance (for example) is possible because a standing (quarter) wave distributes itself along the length of the conductor. There are different potentials at every given point along the conductor despite the fact in your mind you think it's a short circuit or it should all be at the same potential. It's not at the same potential 5cm down the line because the potential is distributed according to the standing wave. That's also why sparks appear at the top of a Tesla coil and not along the whole thing. There's a potential gradient from ground potential to the terminal potential.



The picture illustrates in a neon tube what occurs on the stout copper bars or supposed hairpin circuit. Light and dark, or energised regions, appear according to the driving wavelength/frequency. Connect your bulb to the high potential point and it will light. Connect your bulb to the low potential point, and it won't.

Tesla explains it all very well in his article on the experiment.
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  #69  
Old 06-11-2015, 10:06 PM
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Argumentative? Spirited exchange based on two very different perspectives. For me the sun does not rise and set based on Tesla lore. His contributions to our current quality of life are beyond debate. But many others have followed in his footsteps bringing forward even broader energetic possibilities.
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  #70  
Old 06-11-2015, 11:02 PM
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wayne.ct

Argumentative? Spirited exchange based on two very different perspectives. For me the sun does not rise and set based on Tesla lore. His contributions to our current quality of life are beyond debate. But many others have followed in his footsteps bringing forward even broader energetic possibilities.
Tesla lore indeed. The point in all of this is that the use of a capacitance terminal that enables a filament bulb or such loads to work from one wire in such ways has nothing to do with the terminal being an antenna or receiving anything from the environment or any other source. That idea simply isn't necessary and it doesn't explain anything because that's not what can be observed to be happening.
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  #71  
Old 06-11-2015, 11:34 PM
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Tesla lore indeed. The point in all of this is that the use of a capacitance terminal that enables a filament bulb or such loads to work from one wire in such ways has nothing to do with the terminal being an antenna or receiving anything from the environment or any other source. That idea simply isn't necessary and it doesn't explain anything because that's not what can be observed to be happening.
For me, this would be the crux of the "antenna" issue. Please correct me if I have misinterpreted the positions.

It seems to me that one perspective envisions an AC charge at resonance moving across the capacitor plates, and through the load and into/along the wire leading away from the load.

On the other hand, there is the perspective that an AC charge at resonance reaches the proximal plate of a capacitor and induces a difference in potential vis a vis the distal plate. The ambient medium, seeking to restore balance, would respond through the distal plate, with a responding charge of its own, matching the frequency of the incoming charge. In this sense, though it might appear that the charge might be moving through the capacitor, something different is actually happening. I believe that it is in this sense that DavidE is looking at the capacitor and wire leading away from it to and from the load as an "antenna." I believe Don Smith has an illustration in one of his videos which illustrates this effect. Perhaps someone can post it. If I'm able to find it, I will.

Please correct me if I'm wrong in interpreting these two positions.
Bob
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  #72  
Old 06-12-2015, 12:32 AM
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For me, this would be the crux of the "antenna" issue. Please correct me if I have misinterpreted the positions.

It seems to me that one perspective envisions an AC charge at resonance moving across the capacitor plates, and through the load and into/along the wire leading away from the load.

On the other hand, there is the perspective that an AC charge at resonance reaches the proximal plate of a capacitor and induces a difference in potential vis a vis the distal plate. The ambient medium, seeking to restore balance, would respond through the distal plate, with a responding charge of its own, matching the frequency of the incoming charge. In this sense, though it might appear that the charge might be moving through the capacitor, something different is actually happening. I believe that it is in this sense that DavidE is looking at the capacitor and wire leading away from it to and from the load as an "antenna." I believe Don Smith has an illustration in one of his videos which illustrates this effect. Perhaps someone can post it. If I'm able to find it, I will.

Please correct me if I'm wrong in interpreting these two positions.
Bob
Now I see what you're saying. However in the things I've shown there is no capacitor in series, the output comes directly from the coil.

Personally I see many problems with the idea in relation to the stout copper bars experiment. To begin with, the nodes are present, which is explained by the standing wave principle as Tesla observed and described it. How would the nodes be produced by the atmosphere?

Also if you were to charge something, it's true that nature will want to restore balance, but that will usually be in the form of heat to cold, high potential to low potential. That is to say, energy will escape out of the system in an effort to equalise itself with surrounding space. All of space is unlikely to try to charge itself up to match the potential of an experimenter's little contraption. The sun's energy radiates to the cold of space, but space doesn't try to heat itself up to restore the imbalanced condition.

All in all I don't see why anyone would be led to believe that anything "unconventional" was happening. The effects are unusual, but I don't see how they imply some gaining of energy from the environment and such.
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  #73  
Old 06-12-2015, 09:35 AM
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For me, this would be the crux of the "antenna" issue. Please correct me if I have misinterpreted the positions.

It seems to me that one perspective envisions an AC charge at resonance moving across the capacitor plates, and through the load and into/along the wire leading away from the load.

On the other hand, there is the perspective that an AC charge at resonance reaches the proximal plate of a capacitor and induces a difference in potential vis a vis the distal plate. The ambient medium, seeking to restore balance, would respond through the distal plate, with a responding charge of its own, matching the frequency of the incoming charge. In this sense, though it might appear that the charge might be moving through the capacitor, something different is actually happening. I believe that it is in this sense that DavidE is looking at the capacitor and wire leading away from it to and from the load as an "antenna." I believe Don Smith has an illustration in one of his videos which illustrates this effect. Perhaps someone can post it. If I'm able to find it, I will.

Please correct me if I'm wrong in interpreting these two positions.
Bob
There is one more perspective.
The inner circuit; capacitor plate - load - capacitor plate, has a neutral charge meaning that it contains evenly distributed positive and negative charge. When the outer circuit; capacitor plate - generator - capacitor plate, is energized it induces an electrical current in the inner circuit by alternately attracting and repulsing charge on the capacitor plates.
When the outer circuit plate of capacitor A is made positive, then the outer circuit plate of capacitor B will be made negative, thus the inner circuit plate of capacitor A will attract electrons while the inner circuit plate of capacitor B will repulse electrons.
In this way the inner circuit gets polarized. The next half cycle the polarization will be opposite, so the electrons will have to move through the inner circuit from capacitor A to capacitor B. Meaning that there is a current in the inner circuit, without a true (conductive) connection to the outer circuit and without any role of the ambient medium.

I use the same mechanism to power ignition coils with 240 V mains power. If you're interested I can provide a picture and/or diagram.


Ernst
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  #74  
Old 06-12-2015, 11:10 AM
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Ernst

The deeper you travel down this rabbit whole - the more narratives that you will find that "explain" how it works. Each has its fervent followers.

What we are short of is proof that the scientific communities will agree upon. Or should I say proof that the public domain scientist will agree upon.

Technically you should be able to accumulate and utilize ambient power in some form, to do work. There are systems that require less power as you add load. On the face of this, that is not consistent with "it was provided by the power station" as an explanation. And even to strengthen that case, when you drive the circuit from a battery - there is no utility.

If you have such interest, and an open mind many Single Wire Power systems are likely creating radiant or like events - wave events that are harnessing HF high density power that once transformed can drive conventional loads. There is much evidence that suggests that a radiant or like event is an exchange with the environment. In fact, if you really want to keep it simplest - isn't all power energetically birthed (primal source) from the potentials that make up the ambient?

Only man could be arrogant enough to believe that he invented electricity. Nature organizes just fine without man's opinions and perspectives. A static charge? Lightning? Both examples of natures way of balancing the micros to the macros, that naturally occur in potentials to equilibrium. Potentials that build and balanced as a natural component of unlimited forces that exist all around us.

When we pick one flavor of energetic belief and spread it like gospel, we shut off our brains and all other possibilities.

When collaborating to gain new understandings there is no voice less important. Each of us cannot impose our limited "it can only be this" belief as a filter to new thinking.

The largest body of innovation will first exist in the counter-intuitive. For those with such ambition, we must each leave our comfy chairs of belief and join at a round table and exchange ideas. From this, all is possible.
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  #75  
Old 06-12-2015, 11:45 AM
citfta citfta is offline
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I am going to add my 2 cents worth to this discussion. It seems there are two points of view in this thread. Some believe there is something special about single wire transmission and the "hairpin" circuit and others do not. If I am not understanding these two points of view then someone can correct me later.

I have already suggested that those looking at this single wire transmission idea should study about SWR and in particular the ARRL amateur radio operators handbook. Apparently that advice has been ignored.

If those who really want to understand about single wire transmission and the hairpin circuit would take the time to actually study they would understand why there is really nothing special going on with either circuit. But I guess they don't want to risk destroying their belief in something they believe is special.

If you were going to try and build a better race car engine would you ignore all the engineering efforts that had already been done? How can you possibly expect to build a better circuit if you won't even take the time to learn how circuits work from a conventional point of view. You have to start from some kind of solid foundation before you can even hope to build something better.

I have been accused many times on this forum of not being a believer in OU or free energy or what ever you want to call it. I am a firm believer that OU is possible but I hate to see people wasting their time looking at something that is not what they think it is.

As far as radiant energy goes I think it does exist. I have seen some very interesting things happen when hitting an inductance with short high energy pulses. If you want to work with radiant energy try pulsing the input to a transformer with short pulses and see what the output will do with different kinds of loads. You will not find any radiant energy in the single wire circuit or the hairpin circuit.

My only goal in posting this is to help people see they are wasting their energy and time looking at the one wire circuit or hairpin circuit if they are looking for some kind of free energy. Both these circuits are good learning tools but not OU in any way.

Respectfully,
Carroll

PS: I am curious about something. Where did the idea come from that there was something special about either of these circuits? Does anyone know?
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  #76  
Old 06-12-2015, 03:11 PM
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citfta

Your contributions relative to ARRL information has been noted and most assuredly holds a measure of potential.

Do you ride a horse to work?

<electrostatic potentials and the subsequent release of kinetic Radiant Energy from the omnipresent ether>

Quote:
Of all the great inventions and discoveries of Nikola Tesla, nothing stood out with greater potential benefit to the whole of humanity than his discovery of Radiant Energy in 1889. The series of observations that led to the discovery of Radiant energy initially grew out of experiments that Tesla had conducted in an attempt to duplicate the results that Heinrich Hertz had claimed to achieve in affirming the existence of electromagnetic waves, the discovery of which Hertz announced in 1887. While replicating Hertz’s experiments, Tesla experimented with violently abrupt DC electrical discharges and discovered a new force in the process. Only after conducting exhaustive experimental trials for the next three years, did Tesla announce this stupendous discovery in a paper published in December, 1892, entitled “The Dissipation of Electricity”. Incredibly, most academicians of the day completely missed the mark in understanding the true significance of his paper. Noted scientists such as Sir Oliver Lodge, mistakenly thought that Tesla was referring to high frequency AC electricity in the operation of the Tesla Transformer, a huge blunder that remains to this day in the misnaming and misinterpretation of the Tesla Coil. The transformer that Tesla referred to in the 1892 paper did not operate on magnetic/electric field induction created by alternating currents. It operated in an entirely new domain of physics based on abrupt discharges of electrostatic potentials and the subsequent release of kinetic Radiant Energy from the omnipresent ether. Tesla was now operating under entirely new rules which he referred to as “dynamic” electro-static forces and had, by now, completely abandoned any further interest in the AC waveform. The genesis of the Lodge misunderstanding, however, began a few years earlier with the publication of certain mathematical formulas by a brilliant Scotsman named James Clerk Maxwell.
Spark Gap... Abrupt Discharges = Radiant Energy (Ambient)



Radiant Energy:Unraveling Tesla‚€™s Greatest Secret by Ken Adachi (June 1, 2001)
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  #77  
Old 06-12-2015, 03:17 PM
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Where did the idea come from that there was something special about either of these circuits? Does anyone know?
Good question. Personally I can only conclude that it's a result of what was unwittingly began by Peter Lindemann concerning the radiant energy lecture/video he made. That has spawned all kinds of stuff that it's now impossible to undo.

Then "youtube experts" take it further and speak as an authority, which thousands of people watch to get educated. And so it becomes the gospel.

Everything is explained by "radiant energy", so we can start the club. But unfortunately, no one knows what "radiant energy" is. So the explanation that satisfies the mind is a non-explanation.

P.S. radiant energy exists. If it didn't then the sun would be ineffective and your house central heating system would be pointless. Where there is radiation, energy is radiated, and so it is radiant energy. Radiant energy toasts your bread in the morning.

... But I'm guessing that's not what you meant.
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  #78  
Old 06-12-2015, 03:20 PM
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Per Bedini

RADIANT ELECTRICITY
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Old 06-12-2015, 03:25 PM
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Tesla started this in 1889. I am surprised that you are not willing to accept the broader interpretation of his discovery.

<just finishing putting peanut butter on my toast>
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Old 06-12-2015, 03:47 PM
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Tesla started some research. But he never claimed that his single wire or wireless transmission devices produced free energy, or radiant energy for that matter.

Tesla's use and definition of radiant energy is discussed in the radiant energy patent. Enough to reproduce it and get the job done.

U.S. Patent 685,957 - Apparatus for the Utilization of Radiant Energy | Tesla Universe



To expand on Carroll's question, who is it that thought they knew better than Tesla and decided it would be a good idea to merge all these different things into one mush of (mis)understanding?

We have a boat with wheels because some bright spark didn't realise that the boat and the car were meant to be two different kinds of vehicles. The propeller prevents it from working on land, and the doors are below the water line.
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Old 06-12-2015, 04:27 PM
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dR-Green

Who said anything about Free Energy? There are always costs.

Look at the schematics - both the Tesla Coil and Hairpin circuit ARE SWP SYSTEMS. If you say not, then where are the thousands of volts of potential coming from?

Have you ever reviewed Don Smith's Tesla Coil with collection circuits?

Don't blame Peter - he is innocent.

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Old 06-12-2015, 04:38 PM
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Spark Gap... Abrupt Discharges = Radiant Energy (Ambient)


From that point there are countless variations, but the results are mostly the same.

Don't accept this claim, but do research the inventors that you dare not mention. Or not.
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Old 06-12-2015, 04:41 PM
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dR-Green

Who said anything about Free Energy? There are always costs.

Look at the schematics - both the Tesla Coil and Hairpin circuit ARE SWP SYSTEMS. If you say not, then where are the thousands of volts of potential coming from?

Have you ever reviewed Don Smith's Tesla Coil with collection circuits?

Don't blame Peter - he is innocent.
Well, the stout copper bars experiment is a loop rather than a single transmission line. You could do away with all that and simply use portions G, S and P. That essentially makes up a Tesla coil which is all you need to produce the single wire effects.

The so-called "hairpin" portion can be considered a load across the Tesla coil secondary. It's a closed loop when the far end is closed or a bulb connects both sides.

I'm not sure what the thousands of volts potential has to do with it being one wire or not.

I'm not blaming Peter as such. If you give someone a brick you're not responsible for what they build with it. He could never have envisioned which way it would go. I've explained something to people and they immediately think I mean something else or apply their own explanation to twist it around to match what they already had in mind. You can cause a big mess no matter how good your intentions may be.
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Old 06-12-2015, 04:53 PM
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So what did Peter say anyway?

Radiant Energy
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Old 06-12-2015, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
"The so-called "hairpin" portion can be considered a load across the Tesla coil secondary. It's a closed loop when the far end is closed or a bulb connects both sides."
Not to parse, but this tells me that you personally have not done much work with this circuit. Leave off the shunt, either side individually will power a load.
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Old 06-12-2015, 05:00 PM
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He did not say that single wire transmission = radiant energy or ambient energy or gaining energy from the environment or whatever the case may be.

I think you will find that in fact the light output measured in watts is less than the power you input to run the circuit. No amount of Tesla coiling or spark gaps or increasing the voltage or number of turns or anything else will change this.
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Old 06-12-2015, 05:03 PM
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dR-Green

"The so-called "hairpin" portion can be considered a load across the Tesla coil secondary. It's a closed loop when the far end is closed or a bulb connects both sides."

Not to parse, but this tells me that you personally have not done much work with this circuit. Leave off the shunt, either side individually will power a load.
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use portions G, S and P. That essentially makes up a Tesla coil which is all you need to produce the single wire effects.
..........
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Old 06-12-2015, 05:06 PM
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I'm talking about single wire transmission, and I believe I've already said the radiant energy patent is based on receiving energy from the environment. Also that you may use natural activities to your advantage.

There is nothing to suggest that energy comes from the environment to cause a load to work with one wire.

From Colorado Springs Notes























Capacitors are used in high pass filters and for DC blocking because DC can't pass through the open circuit. But AC quite readily passes through. Bigger capacitance allows lower frequencies through. Cutoff frequency increases as capacitance is decreased. You hear it in effect every time you listen to music, as it's all filtered and EQ'd. That's how the electronic audio equipment works.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-pass_filter

1/4 wave resonance (for example) is possible because a standing (quarter) wave distributes itself along the length of the conductor. There are different potentials at every given point along the conductor despite the fact in your mind you think it's a short circuit or it should all be at the same potential. It's not at the same potential 5cm down the line because the potential is distributed according to the standing wave. That's also why sparks appear at the top of a Tesla coil and not along the whole thing. There's a potential gradient from ground potential to the terminal potential.



The picture illustrates in a neon tube what occurs on the stout copper bars or supposed hairpin circuit. Light and dark, or energised regions, appear according to the driving wavelength/frequency. Connect your bulb to the high potential point and it will light. Connect your bulb to the low potential point, and it won't.

Tesla explains it all very well in his article on the experiment.
Within the parameters of the transmission system very conservative models
where derived.

In Tesla's study of how to convey power through the atmosphere Tesla mentions dielectric charecteristics of gases being insulator prone unless rarified or under terrific electrical stress.
He does describe the (ambient) yet unobservable charecteristics under such conditions.
looking at patent line 85 of page 1.
http://www.nuenergy.org/uploads/tesla/US645576.pdf

Study of spider webs Brazil where water droplets form on the silk it is now understood that
such drops have significant NET charge.

Nasa study of water droplets around a knitting needle in zero G show analogous
properties easily misundertood but simular to electromagnetic but is a charge field.
Orbits and static electrical forces around dielectrics in natural low density enviroment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNpXOb0xl6o
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Last edited by mikrovolt; 06-12-2015 at 05:35 PM.
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Old 06-12-2015, 05:30 PM
DavidE DavidE is offline
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dR-Green

Quote:
I think you will find that in fact the light output measured in watts is less than the power you input to run the circuit. No amount of Tesla coiling or spark gaps or increasing the voltage or number of turns or anything else will change this.
Pulsed DC and its link with the environment is the new black. Don't agree with me, just write a little note somewhere very secret... and watch the world change. I won't have to do or say anything more.


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Old 06-12-2015, 06:15 PM
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dR-Green dR-Green is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikrovolt View Post
In Tesla's study of how to convey power through the atmosphere Tesla mentions dielectric charecteristics of gases being insulator prone unless rarified or under terrific electrical stress.
He does describe the (ambient) yet unobservable charecteristics under such conditions.
looking at patent line 85 of page 1.
http://www.nuenergy.org/uploads/tesla/US645576.pdf
That's the beginnings of radio as it's known today. The system described however uses the earth as the transmission medium.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikola Tesla
"This mode of conveying electrical energy to a distance is not 'wireless' in the popular sense, but a transmission through a conductor, and one which is incomparably more perfect than any artificial one... Any apparatus, then, which can be operated through one or more wires, at distances obviously limited, can likewise be worked without artificial conductors, and with the same facility and precision, at distances without limit other than that imposed by the physical dimensions of the globe.
"The Future of the Wireless Art" by Nikola Tesla
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