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  #1021 (permalink)  
Old 03-13-2012, 12:54 AM
Brian Wilson Brian Wilson is offline
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New design

I tried a new design that popped into my head during meditation. I don't know how it works but it seems to be a lot better than anything I've done yet. If anybody can explain it, go ahead. Here is what I did.

I took two rotors and stacked them on top of each other. The posts are staggered. (See photo). The bottom rotor is wound clockwise then the wire goes up to the one on top and runs ccw. Then down to the next cw.

I used single wire. (Tried bifiler #32 & 28. Didn't work.) The power wire is on two of the posts, one bottom then to the top. All the other posts are wound for the trigger.

I found that I didn't need the pot so I removed it. All coils are wound 132 turns with #28 awg.

I have 8 neons for the safety bulb. I used 3 on the original which had less winds using 26 awg. It burned the neons out and they formed a continuity.

The 8 neons were rather bright so I hooked in one neon and it ran white/purple for a few seconds, then it went bright orange, then it flickered and my fan hesitated. I turned it off to avoid damage. I added another bulb which also ran white/puple on start up with the first dark. Then they both ran orange for a few seconds and then the flickering and hesitating fan.

I rehooked the 8 bulb assembly and was running it to take pictures and as I was setting up the camera the bulbs went dark save one which ran white/purple. At the moment I don't trust the 8 neons to handle the load if I'm not hooked up to charge.

I don't think the brief white/purple light is an indication of damage to the transistor. It seems to be damage to the bulbs that cause the phenomenon.

I'm charging as I write this. The final say on effeciency and output power is it's charging ability.
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File Type: jpg Double rotor w-winding direction.jpg (76.7 KB, 80 views)
File Type: jpg Fan w-double rotor.jpg (173.9 KB, 45 views)

Last edited by Brian Wilson : 03-13-2012 at 12:58 AM.
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  #1022 (permalink)  
Old 03-23-2012, 06:13 PM
mangelo mangelo is offline
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I want to know

hi, I want to know if in this circuit for spin fan it's necessary battery or not!!!
I don't have understand this!!!
thanks
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  #1023 (permalink)  
Old 03-23-2012, 06:14 PM
mangelo mangelo is offline
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hi imothep, I want to know if in this circuit it's necessary battery or not???
thanks
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  #1024 (permalink)  
Old 03-24-2012, 12:43 AM
Brian Wilson Brian Wilson is offline
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battery

@mangelo. Not much has been going on in this forum lately. I wrote on 3/13 and there has been no response. This is unusual. I'm not the moderator but I'll answer your question as best as I can.

You do not need a battery to run your fan, but you do need some kind of power source. You can use a transformer pluged into house current as long as the output is 12 volts. It should be less than an amp as well.

You don't need a battery hooked up to charge unless you do not have the neon light in the curcuit. The neon keeps the transformer from burning out if you are not charging a battery. Best to have the neon while you are learning but it is not necessary as long as you are connected to a charge battery.
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  #1025 (permalink)  
Old 03-24-2012, 01:21 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Sorry guys I have been busy and didn't see the posts. By the way I am not Imhotep or a moderator but I answer to the best of my knowledge.

Brian, the purple flashing does damage the neon's and with so much power it will blow the transistor when the neon fails. You are using a modified circuit so we do not know if it is better or worse until you do some comparisons with charging and discharging.

mangelo, you can use any DC input that will get the circuit to oscillate but it is pointless to not have a charging battery.
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  #1026 (permalink)  
Old 03-24-2012, 03:10 AM
Joit Joit is offline
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Mangelo, a Batterie is neccessary for the Fan, its not selfrunning.

Brian i did see you stack of Coils, did wait if you have to report more.
I got a ceiling Fan motor too, still AC, but it has inside a lot of this stacked Coils too, i think 3 rows above eachother and a with couple Coils in the turn of it. So it may must help something when they build it at the industry. I only did not play around with it.
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  #1027 (permalink)  
Old 03-30-2012, 07:34 AM
Almaz Almaz is offline
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Hi guys! I'm unable to start my car if it is parked for 2-3 days but if I drive daily then Sealed 12v Battery works fine. Do you think if I use Bedini system using PC FAN 12v 0.25A would restore battery?

Last edited by Almaz : 03-30-2012 at 07:38 AM.
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  #1028 (permalink)  
Old 03-30-2012, 07:58 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Almaz View Post
Hi guys! I'm unable to start my car if it is parked for 2-3 days but if I drive daily then Sealed 12v Battery works fine. Do you think if I use Bedini system using PC FAN 12v 0.25A would restore battery?
It is possible as a fan will restore capacity but its output is very small when compared to a car battery so it will take a long time even if it can do it. You could use 10 or more fans in parallel and that would work better.
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  #1029 (permalink)  
Old 03-30-2012, 08:19 AM
Almaz Almaz is offline
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Originally Posted by mbrownn View Post
It is possible as a fan will restore capacity but its output is very small when compared to a car battery so it will take a long time even if it can do it. You could use 10 or more fans in parallel and that would work better.

Thank you for a quick response. Since I just started reading about Bedini charger and it'll probably would take me a few days to read all these pages on the forum, can you answer a few quick questions?

1) If I use a bigger motor would it speed up the process?

2) Is higher voltage output from the motor better or worse for charging battery? Does output AC current makes difference to charge batteries?

3) Is it better to use brushless motor with more poles 6, 8 instead of pc fan 4 poles?

4) Is it ok to use stock 6, 8 poles brushless motor without rewinding for trigger poles? If I understand trigger poles must have higher number of winds.

5) Is it safe to use this method of charging on regular basis or is it only good to restore dead batteries?

6) I found out the transistor shown in the circuit 2N3055 is not very efficient. Should I look for another transistor with higher frequency? What's the most important in the transistor besides to be 4-5 times RMS, voltage, Amp's and Watts.

7) Is higher or lower RPM makes any difference for charging the battery?

8) Trigger poles must be high gauge and high number of winds but what is suggested for other poles? Low gauge as much of winds as possible?

9) If I get printer motor which is about a fist size with 8 or 10 poles and modify the circuit for higher voltage output. I know the motor can easily output 500+ volts and very low current. Is it enough to restore/charge car battery?

Thank you in advance

Last edited by Almaz : 03-30-2012 at 08:46 AM.
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  #1030 (permalink)  
Old 03-30-2012, 08:55 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Almaz View Post
Thank you for a quick response. Since I just started reading about Bedini charger and it'll probably would take me a few days to read all these pages on the forum, can you answer a few quick questions?

1) If I use a bigger motor would it speed up the process?

2) Is higher voltage output from the motor better or worse for charging battery? Does output AC current makes difference to charge batteries?

3) Is it better to use brushless motor with more poles 6, 8 instead of pc fan 4 poles?

4) Is it ok to use stock 6, 8 poles brushless motor without rewinding for trigger poles? If I understand trigger poles must have higher number of winds.

5) Is it safe to use this method of charging on regular basis or is it only good to restore dead batteries?

6) I found out the transistor shown in the circuit 2N3055 is not very efficient. Should I look for another transistor with higher frequency? What's the most important in the transistor besides to be 4-5 times RMS, voltage, Amp's and Watts.

7) Is higher or lower RPM makes any difference for charging the battery?

8) Trigger poles must be high gauge and high number of winds but what is suggested for other poles? Low gauge as much of winds as possible?

Thank you in advance
1)Bigger is better but look for low resistance coils.

2)The high voltage actually improves the battery by removing sulphation

3&4)I don't think the number of poles are important and the number of winds is the same for both power and trigger

5) I have used it for many years on one battery yet another crystallized so i cannot say for sure about this

6) Low impedance and rapid shut off

7)RPMs make no difference but you want the highest radiant output and this tends to occur at lower revs

8)This must be the type posted recently, best for him to comment on this as I have never built one this way.
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  #1031 (permalink)  
Old 03-30-2012, 05:41 PM
Almaz Almaz is offline
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Dear Mbrownn,
I'm a little bit confused what takes to desulphate the car battery, voltage, current or both? If I use a standard PC Fan then it would take to desulphate the car battery approximately over a month or 1 lb a day (just an estimated number) Using PC Fan and rated 100v 2n3055 transistor then output spikes shouldn't be higher then 100v AC. For example if I use 10 pc fans in parallel then the AC voltage output remains the same but current multiplies by 10. On youtube I found a video where printer motor was used about a fist size and it can output 500+ volts AC as long as transistor is used with higher rated voltage. What should be my goal to go with a high voltage 500v output or high current design? Since you have 1000 times more experience, could you suggest a better ssg design to desulphate car battery? Also I have tv flyback transformer and a few neon lights transformer which can output thousands of volts, can they be used to desulphate the battery? What's the safest highest voltage I can use for 12v battery? I really doubt that I can use thousands of voltage spikes for battery.

Last edited by Almaz : 03-30-2012 at 05:44 PM.
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  #1032 (permalink)  
Old 03-30-2012, 08:56 PM
Dragonall Dragonall is offline
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Thumbs up Work far from urban areas?

Does it work on a mountain or somewhere far from civilization?


Thanks

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  #1033 (permalink)  
Old 03-31-2012, 01:15 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Almaz View Post
Dear Mbrownn,
I'm a little bit confused what takes to desulphate the car battery, voltage, current or both? If I use a standard PC Fan then it would take to desulphate the car battery approximately over a month or 1 lb a day (just an estimated number) Using PC Fan and rated 100v 2n3055 transistor then output spikes shouldn't be higher then 100v AC. For example if I use 10 pc fans in parallel then the AC voltage output remains the same but current multiplies by 10. On youtube I found a video where printer motor was used about a fist size and it can output 500+ volts AC as long as transistor is used with higher rated voltage. What should be my goal to go with a high voltage 500v output or high current design? Since you have 1000 times more experience, could you suggest a better ssg design to desulphate car battery? Also I have tv flyback transformer and a few neon lights transformer which can output thousands of volts, can they be used to desulphate the battery? What's the safest highest voltage I can use for 12v battery? I really doubt that I can use thousands of voltage spikes for battery.
There are many ways to desulphate a battery, John Bedini showed us one way using the SSG. What is interesting about it is that it does not require current. Normally voltage without current is static but as the battery does charge on the SSG it cannot be static or current that is doing it. This type of energy is known as radiant energy.

Yes higher voltage does increase the effect but beware of an explosion risk if this voltage causes arcing but your charging voltage should not be much above battery voltage when the battery is connected. Normally the spike created is around 10 times that of the input voltage.

The faster we switch off the supply to a coil, the the more effective this "radiant voltage spike" is. the efficiency is given by reducing the amount of time on that the coil has but there is a limit.

Mechanical switching is very good at switching off and so produces a very good spike but it is difficult to get the very short on time.

Computer fans are very small for desulphating and charging car batteries, the self oscillating relay is faster but not as efficient. Google the "Imhotep IRO. Any coil can be used to create a spike, it does not need to be a transformer and can be slaved to a relay. Even an electric washing machine motor can be used but obviously it will not run as it is not designed to run on pulsed DC

I have not used above 500v to charge or desulphate batteries as I consider it too risky but I am sure others have.

I would aim to get a current draw of 1/20th of the amp hour rating of the battery I am charging but using the minimum current required to power the coil. This means a bigger coil but I cannot tell you if it would be safe to use a neon sign transformer although I have used car ignition coils with great success. Neon sign and microwave oven transformers use lethal amounts of power in normal use so I consider them too dangerous as battery chargers but if you do choose to try it, use extreme care.
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  #1034 (permalink)  
Old 03-31-2012, 01:16 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonall View Post
Does it work on a mountain or somewhere far from civilization?


Thanks

Yes it will work anywhere, even in space.
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  #1035 (permalink)  
Old 03-31-2012, 01:50 AM
Brian Wilson Brian Wilson is offline
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Stacked fan and other observations

The rotor configuration I had posted earlier seemed to give me some rather promising results based on neon output. However as I look over my notes on all of my different designs and how they actually charge, the bifoler #26 & #28 worked the best. I can actually get a small net positive charge between my source and charge battery when I use it.

I will build a larger one using an AC window fan. It has six posts and the magnets spin inside. Unfortunately, AC doesn't use permanent magnets. I have to make a rotor. Not to dificult but requires extra work. Will report on it when I get it done.

Something that I believe the senior members already know: the brightness of the neon doesn't reflect on how well the unit will charge. My highest chargeing fans weren't the ones with the brighests neons.

The stacked design gave me super bright neons. So much so it burned out several of them at once along with the diode. It didn't charge very well.
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  #1036 (permalink)  
Old 03-31-2012, 03:44 PM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Wilson View Post

Something that I believe the senior members already know: the brightness of the neon doesn't reflect on how well the unit will charge. My highest chargeing fans weren't the ones with the brighests neons.

The stacked design gave me super bright neons. So much so it burned out several of them at once along with the diode. It didn't charge very well.
If you are looking for speed of charge, Brian is correct but if you are looking for charge efficiency then the bright or super bright is what you are looking for as this is where you find the near 1 to 1 charging, especially at a C20 charge rate. It is also where there is little or no current detected in the output as most of the output is radiant.

Sorry to differ but we need to be clear on this.
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  #1037 (permalink)  
Old 03-31-2012, 04:19 PM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Wilson View Post
The stacked design gave me super bright neons. So much so it burned out several of them at once along with the diode. It didn't charge very well.
I strongly encourage you to test this further for charge efficiency. Using the Basic circuit place the negative of your volt meter on the negative of your supply battery and the positive of your volt meter on the positive of your charging battery. This will give an overall voltage so what you would normally see is a rise in voltage for the first few mins followed by the voltage holding static or dropping only a few tens of milivolts over the next few hours. If your voltage continues to rise then you may have reached overunity electrically but this assumes both batteries are of the same capacity and all the measurements are acurate.

You did not make it clear what your input voltage is but such strength of radiant is encouraging . Remember that lead acid batteries like to be charged slowly, that is over 20 hours to get very high efficiencies. If you adjust your setup to charge a battery over 20 hours I think you will be very close to 100% efficiency of charging, then when you add the work done by the motor you may find you are in overunity. The fans are usually in the 15 to 25% efficiency range when run this way but when added to a charge rate of 90+% you can see you can achieve overunity. Ok it is boring that you have to charge slowly but the reward is quite exciting.

My charge efficiency at C20 was 97% and my motor efficiency was in the 15 to 25% range, allowing for meter accuracy of + or - 3% I must be in overunity. This is the thing that almost everyone misses, with the simple fan you have to include the work done by the fan to get into overunity.

Keep testing your stacked fan and post the results please
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  #1038 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2012, 12:33 AM
cheetoz49r cheetoz49r is offline
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first time

I want to make my own charger as well but I watch a movie on youtube that his using a printer motor and I want to use that as well I want to wind my own rotor but I never done it. I watch the movie but cannot figure out how he wound the wire and connected them to the battery and wiring here is the link any help please thank you
Bedini High Voltage Without D.C. Power Supply - YouTube
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  #1039 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2012, 06:25 AM
Almaz Almaz is offline
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What's the best and proper way to setup fan coil? See the picture
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  #1040 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2012, 12:36 PM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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I think you should try the original way first, go to post 1 in this thread.
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  #1041 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2012, 05:50 AM
Almaz Almaz is offline
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I've build my first SSG using 120mm x 38mm, 105cfm, 12v .66A 7.9W DC Motor. Each coil is about 3 ohms. I'm using to power the motor standard adapter 120AC to 12DC 1A. For the first test I used my Honda Civic battery Valucraft 51R-VL, cranking Amps 510. After 1h 50min I put in 0.1v from 12.55v to 12.65v. If the charge rate remains the same then I'd be able to put in 1v within 18 hours. Using my Fluke 175 meter and probing charging battery, the DC current is 30ma and AC current about 3 times as much as DC. I have a few dc adapters 18v, 22v and I'd like to know if I increase input voltage, would it increase charging/desulphation process? Now what would be the best way to increase charging/desulphation method? Second motor in parallel or different design such as Cmos, transformer, coil? Also I'd like to know if all my numbers are OK and similar to yours or is it worst?

Last edited by Almaz : 04-02-2012 at 06:09 AM.
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  #1042 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2012, 07:38 PM
cheetoz49r cheetoz49r is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbrownn View Post
I think you should try the original way first, go to post 1 in this thread.
I destroy 3 fans already trying to take them apart
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  #1043 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2012, 08:21 PM
cheetoz49r cheetoz49r is offline
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I finally got the rotor and stator separated. now I don't have a pole on this motor. and I have two wire in one side and another 2 wire on the other side. should I just wrap each wire on the pole that I will make

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  #1044 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2012, 08:37 PM
Joit Joit is offline
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In the middle from the Stator is a little Tube, its something like a cone. Take a Screwdriver or something similar what match into the middle, hammer it out, mostly it moves to the Backside, then you can easy take the Stator coils away from there. When you are done, put this little tube back.
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  #1045 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2012, 12:47 AM
rvdude007 rvdude007 is offline
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Hello Imhotep,

The posts on my motor are inverted and soldered down into the circuit board. I can remove the circuit board which is not a problem. Can I also remove all the components on the circuit board and then use available holes to attach the 4th coil wire to and then solder the 4 out going wires to the bottom of the circuit board?

Also, do I need to attach any batteries at all to get this to power up??

Thanks. )
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  #1046 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2012, 01:57 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Almaz View Post
I've build my first SSG using 120mm x 38mm, 105cfm, 12v .66A 7.9W DC Motor. Each coil is about 3 ohms. I'm using to power the motor standard adapter 120AC to 12DC 1A. For the first test I used my Honda Civic battery Valucraft 51R-VL, cranking Amps 510. After 1h 50min I put in 0.1v from 12.55v to 12.65v. If the charge rate remains the same then I'd be able to put in 1v within 18 hours. Using my Fluke 175 meter and probing charging battery, the DC current is 30ma and AC current about 3 times as much as DC. I have a few dc adapters 18v, 22v and I'd like to know if I increase input voltage, would it increase charging/desulphation process? Now what would be the best way to increase charging/desulphation method? Second motor in parallel or different design such as Cmos, transformer, coil? Also I'd like to know if all my numbers are OK and similar to yours or is it worst?
The fan sounds like a good one. You can keep increasing the voltage but don't risk running the fan when disconnected from the charging battery. as long as the fan, transistor and pot does not get too hot you should be fine. The bigger the increase in volts, the more effective the charging and desulphation. Remember to adjust to the sweet spot for the most efficient charge. Using the AC setting you are probably getting a false reading, digital meters can be fooled by pulsed DC, especially on the amps scales.

The most efficient charge rate for lead acid batteries is C20, that is charge it over 20 hours. To do that divide your amphour rating by 20 and that would be the current required at 12v on the power supply. At a higher voltage you will need less but anything between C10 and C30 will be fine for general charging.

Your fan has a lower resistance than any I have and that should be good. I remember that using one of my fans i was at 12v 80mA input and only 3mA on the output but the output amps should be as low as possible while getting as high as possible spike in the charging battery.

If your charging speed is still too low you can add as many fans as you want or add a coil in parallel to the fan power coil but be careful not to overpower the other parts of the circuit, it is best to have a separate transistor and diodes for each coil. With slaved coils it may be the case that the fan will not run but if you can hear the coils the circuit will still charge.
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  #1047 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2012, 02:01 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheetoz49r View Post
I finally got the rotor and stator separated. now I don't have a pole on this motor. and I have two wire in one side and another 2 wire on the other side. should I just wrap each wire on the pole that I will make
You have to add a fourth post as shown in the videos
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Old 04-03-2012, 02:04 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Originally Posted by rvdude007 View Post
Hello Imhotep,

The posts on my motor are inverted and soldered down into the circuit board. I can remove the circuit board which is not a problem. Can I also remove all the components on the circuit board and then use available holes to attach the 4th coil wire to and then solder the 4 out going wires to the bottom of the circuit board?

Also, do I need to attach any batteries at all to get this to power up??

Thanks. )
Yes I do just that. you do need the batteries as it is not self powering
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:21 AM
Almaz Almaz is offline
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Today I created another circuit for a smaller motor. First of all my specs: 2 transistors 2SC2625, Diodes 1N5008, Smaller diodes PR1507. All the components much faster and higher rating compare to original circuit. To power everything I'm using 120 to 12v adapter. Here is a problem. Using a single power supply I connected both motors to the battery (both transistors mounted on the same heat sink). The charging battery started dropping as hell and even going negative. Well I put a separate power supply for a second motor and now it works hmmmmmm. How come a single power supply doesn't work and dischaging "charging battery"? Even by disconnecting Positive power from a second motor, both motors are charging the battery. What's going on? Could it be a smaller motor got coils setups differently but they work fine individually?

I've got 2 pots for each motor and when I parallel both motors then one pot controls both motors and getting them out of sync. Probably for the same reason I can't get both motor to spin together while they are in parallel mode but just by twisting the smaller motor and stopping immediately, it starts oscilating (whistle sound). By using whistle sound from the motor without spinning rotors, I'm able to get exactly double current output and probably higher voltage. Charging battery voltage goes up. Just by using 1 120mm big motor and smaller motor, I'm able to push DC 100ma which is a lot (used Fluke 175). Since I don't have an osciloscope, can someone confirm if oscilating the motor without spinning the rotor gets double the output and correct waveform???

I guess you mean C 0.05 charge rate because C20 charge rate means charging/discharging 20 times more capacity in one hour of the battery capacity. In other words charging/discharging at rate C20 would only take 3 minutes to charge or discharge the battery.

Quote:
output amps should be as low as possible while getting as high as possible spike in the charging battery
????????? I was aiming for higher current so what you are saying I have to do the whole thing opposite? I wish I had an osciloscope. By any chance can anyone provide an osciloscope graph Current vs Voltage.

Last edited by Almaz : 04-03-2012 at 11:43 AM.
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Old 04-03-2012, 03:09 PM
cheetoz49r cheetoz49r is offline
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Fan

I bought several fan already but I can't find a fan that have the metal post. every fan that I took apart are all plastic post and I'm having a hard time putting all of the post. Can someone please tell me what brand of fan should I use to get the one with metal post. thank you
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