Free Energy At Last Step By Step Must See

Sephiroth · #31 (**permalink**) 05-26-2008, 05:14 PM

The neon bulb basically acts like a spark gap and is just a safty precaution in case the charging battery becomes disconnected so that the flyback voltage will have a way out of the coil, otherwise it is going to plow a hole through your transistor

no current can flow through a neon unless there is at least 90v across the terminals, unlike an LED that will conduct at practically any voltage. Putting an LED across the emitter and collector is basically shorting the circuit, bypassing the transistor.

I've built a few of these fan motors (not performing as well as my big motor unfortunatly, though still fidling with different designs and coil configurations) and I don't think the neon is as essential for an average sized computer fan. I took the neon out of the circuit on one fan to see how high it would charge a capacitor and the transistor held up fine even after the capacitor was disconnected.

I've also tried recovering some seriously dead batteries and found the voltage reading isn't an indication of charge in the battery AT ALL! lol at first when you try charging a seriously dead battery, you are effectively just putting a resistor on that part of the circuit so the voltage will immeadiatly shoot up, then as the sulfation on the battery starts to break down, the voltage will start to drop again, then level off (takes about 24h depending on the condition and size of your battery). After it has leveled off it will slowly start rising again though it will probably take at least a month of charging and discharging for the battery to be in any kind of usable condition. and that is only if the plates haven't warped! Oh, the fun of it all!

**~Imhotep~** · #32 (**permalink**) 05-26-2008, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by riccardom70

Hi , what is the electronic component (indicated from the arrow) near the diode valve?

Thanks

that is the charge battery. I apologize for the crude graphics.

**~Imhotep~** · #33 (**permalink**) 05-26-2008, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InTheField

That is the battery being charged. It is reverse polarity of the supply battery shown to the right. The charge battery negative terminal is to the top and shown connected to the positive from the coil and the positive from the supply battery.

Imhotep for this thread. Very interesting.

I have a bunch of "stuff" lying around, so I thought I'd put one of these together. I did have to pick up a supply battery. I got a 12V 7aH lead acid battery for my supply battery. For my charging battery, I took a dead battery out of a power mower that I have. It is a 12V 17aH lead acid battery that has been "dead" for over a year. It won't even keep the mower running it has so little charge. When I put the voltmeter on it, it had ~2V and negligible current output (in other words, put a load on it and the current went to 0A, the volts went to 0V). The supply battery measured at 12.88V.

On an interesting side note... You mentioned that one of your 3 would self start. At first, I had to fiddle with things, but at one point I put the lead for the charging battery (after the diode) back to the emitter and found that when I do that, it would self start.

Currently, it has been running for maybe 1 1/2 hours (give or take) and the supply battery voltage is now at 12.73V and the charging ("dead") battery voltage is reading 6.99V.

A few things I've noticed:

1) The charging battery voltage seems to vary from reading to reading over the course of a few minutes, and the readings aren't always going up. The readings have been as high as 8.24V and fallen down into the 5V range. Still pretty impressive considering that this was a "dead" battery that I thought I'd have to replace this year because it wouldn't hold a charge from a conventional charger.

2) Varying the potentiometer value only changes the fan a minor bit. But, if the value goes over ~2k by very much (I had a 5k pot on hand, so I used it) or if the value drops down too much, the fan stops. I haven't measured the values (yet). There is a small increase in speed when reducing the value of the pot, but if you weren't "looking for it", you wouldn't notice. It does increase the drain on the supply battery, but doesn't seem to increase the charging rate to any noticeable degree. Also, the fan speed isn't a high rate. I'm not concerned with that, just mention it because of comments that folks have made about the high fan speed. It has a speed at which it wants to run ("resonate") and that is where it seems to be the "happiest". Sooooo, that's where I'm letting it run at.

3) When I picked up the supply battery, I also picked up the neon bulb. (I don't have that kind of thing "on hand") They only had red... no amber, but I didn't think that would make a difference. Also, you don't mention it, but they said Radio Shack said they only carry these little neon bulbs in 120V... I was looking for a 12V bulb... The 120V bulb looked like what you have in the video (except red

) so, that's what I got. (all that explanation just to mention that...) on the neon bulb... Nothing. No light, no nothing... I do have some LEDs laying around and noticed that putting one across where the neon bulb is causes a huge drain on the circuit (and in short order will stop the fan). Using a smaller LED, it doesn't stop the fan, but will also cause a drain. Either will light when put in parallel with the charging battery, but the larger one is pretty dim. From what I've read, I kind of expected things to run better with additional loading, but I haven't seen that at all. After the LED tests, the charging battery read at 6.55V (down from the 6.99V previous reading).

I realize that using the 12V 17aH "dead" battery as my very first charging battery was probably ambitious, but things seem to be working... even if not quite as "efficiently" as others have seen.

Thanks again... Maybe I'll pick up some of those cheap NewEgg fans. Can't beat $1.29/fan. I have the rest of the parts (except for neon bulbs

) to build at least 5-6 more of these... It doesn't take that long either. (It's just that these eyes are getting too old to see those fine coil wires

)

Thoughts, comments, suggestions?

As far as the neon lamps they were 120v, i did forget to mention that so thank you for bringing that up. If you have a load hooked up to the fan the neon will not light up. If you take the battery off that your charging you can use the neon as an indication of seeing the back emf and through adjustment see where it starts to pulse the neon to find the "sweet spot" And for testing purposes, i used a variable 0 - 36 volt 1.5 amp power supply that is easily built. Good luck on your experiment and i hope you can resurrect you "dead" battery

theremart · #34 (**permalink**) 05-26-2008, 07:10 PM

Ok,

Here is a video of my Fan, and my failed attempt of the 2nd one

but anyhow, I have more to work on, and I hope the video helps others as they build theirs to see how I got the one that I have working going...

YouTube - Video 38 Fan with SSG,

**~Imhotep~** · #35 (**permalink**) 05-26-2008, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theremart

Ok,

Here is a video of my Fan, and my failed attempt of the 2nd one

but anyhow, I have more to work on, and I hope the video helps others as they build theirs to see how I got the one that I have working going...

YouTube - Video 38 Fan with SSG,

Boy that one zoomss..lol

as far as the oscilloscope hookup, my original motivation was Rick Freiedrich's. And he used a large tape motor head for replication that i believe he got from bendini. and also did a 150 milliamp computer fan. His video i believe is on youtube. and he was watching the spikes on his oscilloscope so you may want to do a search to see if his video is on there. Im not sure how to get a hold of him but i know it can be done. and im sure advise on hookup. again EXCELLENT video! you def filled in the procedure gaps that i had not been able to cover because of time restraints on youtube.

Also i have taken a larger ac fan removed, all the windings, rewound and put bendini's circuit on it , i wound 4 of the 8 stator posts on it with 3 batteries in parallel which was 36 volts as the source, unloaded with fan blades off the rpm's went so high so fast and the power was so great that it melted the bendini circuit, from the back emf and coil collapse, im still working on beefing up the circuit so it can handle the back emf and coil collapse. (it left a nice little black spot on the carpet when the transistor melted into the floor..lol) i wanted to get the successful imhotep implementation out to the public so i had put that one on the back burner right now but the potential is great and the procedure is more complicated so i wanted put out a easy one that everyone can do whether they had electronic background or not, with a neon so everyone can see unloaded that this phenomenon is real! you can see it in your face on your bench top right now. It does not put out the current like the larger versions but in a power outage as an emergency source of energy to squeeze every bit of life out of even the throw away zinc carbon batteries which people throw hundreds of dollars of those away a year. Remember i live in a tropical paradise that has storms that takes power out for sometimes weeks this is a great emergency tool you cannot go buy batteries when the power goes out for days, save All batteries and you might be able to restore them in emergencies. I almost died of heatstroke when Florida got hit the last time and power was out for days. I wish i would have had one of these. Now i have many and they will be in my survival tool box. Thanx to Bendini and Lindemann they are great men and lifesavers.

Rayaz · #36 (**permalink**) 05-26-2008, 11:45 PM

Is it ok if the bulb is an indicator incandescent? Its about the same size as the neon one in your picture, but the store only had 120vac neons and not 12v ones so I had to compromise after reading LED's are not a good choice.

Can I hook this up to a light without using a battery at all? Will it run continuously?

theremart · #37 (**permalink**) 05-27-2008, 12:07 AM

here is a link to these bulbs...

20 of them delivered for $8.00 good deal.

Mart

NE2 NE-2 Neon Bulb Light Lamp - Package of 20 - eBay (item 230251294760 end time Jun-08-08 13:50:53 PDT)

Rayaz · #38 (**permalink**) 05-27-2008, 02:03 AM

I bought all the stuff locally so I could put one of these together asap rather than order the parts and wait so thats why I'd like to know if the incandescent is safe to use, but thanks for the link I may use it in the future.

I am stopped short at trying to get the fan apart, I think it might be too heavy duty to actually take apart.. first problem was getting the fan blade off until I figured out the weird system with the black rubber thing on the end of the shaft to get it loose...

But now I cannot get the coil assembly off because on the inside end of the shaft it has a black piece fastened to it that is preventing the assembly from being removed, any advice? Or should I take this $25 fan back and go find an old pc one in the warehouse, which I think I might do anyways.

**~Imhotep~** · #39 (**permalink**) 05-27-2008, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rayaz

I bought all the stuff locally so I could put one of these together asap rather than order the parts and wait so thats why I'd like to know if the incandescent is safe to use, but thanks for the link I may use it in the future.

I am stopped short at trying to get the fan apart, I think it might be too heavy duty to actually take apart.. first problem was getting the fan blade off until I figured out the weird system with the black rubber thing on the end of the shaft to get it loose...

But now I cannot get the coil assembly off because on the inside end of the shaft it has a black piece fastened to it that is preventing the assembly from being removed, any advice? Or should I take this $25 fan back and go find an old pc one in the warehouse, which I think I might do anyways.

no you cannot use incandescent instead of neon. Someone already posted that they ran it without the neon and it did not take out the transistor. So if you do not have a neon right now, it is ok possibly run it without till you are able to get a neon. the neon is a visual spark gap.

As far as the disassembly, i have had tough rotors, i had to sometimes very carefully use large pliers to grip on to rotor laminations, be careful you might also try gently heating the laminations with a hair dryer, some have been glued the hair dryer will soften the glue then twist, if its warm use a rag or something so you dont burn yourself, on the computer fans the stator assembly is mounted with 3 or 4 delicate plastic supports to the outside parameter i have smashed one of them, but i still got it to go with a little ingenuity i just took a piece of house wiring and twisted it into a tesla pancake coil, striped the circuit board and soldered it to it as a stand. Then ran my wires out to the bendini circuit. its kinda of dangerous that one is. But i never give up and i was gonna use this one cause it had nice big coils. Never the less some of them are gonna be tough to get off, be creative and be careful and if you do destroy this one you can get these fans everywhere.

Some people have used the very small incandescents (low voltage low current draw) off the trigger side coils, and they light dimly. i have not. the neon are there once again for me, to visualize the coil collapse and back emf. The brighter the neon glow the more back emf. Let us know how it works out for you. they are also there for protection for the transistors if you dont have a second battery hooked up charging off of them.if you have a battery hooked up to the charge side and leave it hooked up while its running ive been told you dont need the neon, its ommitted in alot of circuit diagrams on the internet. if you dont use it turn it off then remove your charge battery.

Rayaz · #40 (**permalink**) 05-27-2008, 03:33 AM

Well I visited an old friend and picked up 2x 80mm fans, got the coil assembly off, seems it was indeed glued, used a heat lamp to heat i up but overdid it and pulled the posts right out of the soft plastic, hah but I am making progress here!

Did you say in a previous post that 120vac neon will work? Or did I misread it?

I will not use the incandescent then, thanks! I will be using 2 batteries so I will go without one for now.

**~Imhotep~** · #41 (**permalink**) 05-27-2008, 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rayaz

Well I visited an old friend and picked up 2x 80mm fans, got the coil assembly off, seems it was indeed glued, used a heat lamp to heat i up but overdid it and pulled the posts right out of the soft plastic, hah but I am making progress here!

Did you say in a previous post that 120vac neon will work? Or did I misread it?

I will not use the incandescent then, thanks! I will be using 2 batteries so I will go without one for now.

yep you read right, the ones i get are 120 volt at radio shack altho ill be having shiva get me those ones on ebay, that such a great deal! glad you got it working. Good luck

Rayaz · #42 (**permalink**) 05-27-2008, 05:14 AM

Well I am not having much luck here. First 80mm fan I could not get the 4th post in and when I was trying to put the 120mm fan back together it came apart so I gave it a go, but on one of the post holes, half of it broke off, so I would try crazy glue but I don't have any around.

Plus I can not get the solder to stick to the post??? I figured I'd just solder the wire to it+the plastic around it but I cannot get the solder to stick to it? It just rolls off in a bead, I am using a Cold Heat tool with some Rosin Core Solder. (Yes this is my first time with soldering)

Any advice? I thought this would be simple but it is turning out not to be.

Oh and the circuit board from the fan, is that not used?

Thanks for bearing with me!

ren · #43 (**permalink**) 05-27-2008, 05:39 AM

The neon bulb is there for a safety precaution. It is only designed to protect the transistor in case the charging battery is removed. It is thus designed to be conductive at higher voltages. It acts like a spark gap and must never be a direct path of conduction. If it is a traditional bulb then current will flow from collector to emitter and complete the circuit at all times, thus no oscillations or rotation can be achieved.

The use of a small light or inductance (see Lee and Sep's choke in the trigger coil) can actually be of benefit in the trigger circuit. I have used it many times to achieve a lower consistent amp draw and overall better tune. Current needs to flow through the trigger coil to allow for switching to occur and the general idea is to restrict this switching down to as short a switch as possible, with resistance and in this instance a small load (light bulb). Under fine tune the light globe usually wont even glow, but its resistance needs to be taken into account.

Rosin Core can be tricky especially with a low heat iron, you may have more luck with another type of solder.

Sephiroth · #44 (**permalink**) 05-27-2008, 09:55 AM

Can anyone tell me about this fan?

Maplin > 230V Main Axial Fans

I am looking for a bigger one and this seems to be the most powerful, though not sure what the insides look like.

It is a 230V AC Main Axial Fan, with a shaded-pole motor.

Do you think it would be possible to convert on of these to run as a 12v ssg? Haven't a clue if it is the same kind of motor/coil configuration as the 12v fans.

**~Imhotep~** · #45 (**permalink**) 05-27-2008, 01:15 PM

i have done shaded pole ac motor conversions the amount of modification is great tho you must modify the rotor to a four magnet arrangment (for most people this is a tough mod ,you must press old squirl cage rotor off the armature
and this is not easy to do, much tools needed -i have acheaved this -then make a new rotor-again no small task -much skills req. with 4 magnet arrangment.
then change windings -again no small task and rewind to bendini arrangement.
you are better off sticking to dc brushless design they go up to 1.5 kilowatt .
there are brushless scooter motor (500) watt available from sources online-
that is something i will be achiveing in the future imagine scooter that recharges itself yea but converting ac motor is a tough one if you try be ready to do alot of modding good luck

**~Imhotep~** · #46 (**permalink**) 05-27-2008, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rayaz

Well I am not having much luck here. First 80mm fan I could not get the 4th post in and when I was trying to put the 120mm fan back together it came apart so I gave it a go, but on one of the post holes, half of it broke off, so I would try crazy glue but I don't have any around.

Plus I can not get the solder to stick to the post??? I figured I'd just solder the wire to it+the plastic around it but I cannot get the solder to stick to it? It just rolls off in a bead, I am using a Cold Heat tool with some Rosin Core Solder. (Yes this is my first time with soldering)

Any advice? I thought this would be simple but it is turning out not to be.

Oh and the circuit board from the fan, is that not used?

Thanks for bearing with me!

soldering is a skill but can be done the trick with these motor is fine tip ,radio shack has fine tip solder pensil irons ,heat wire and post at same time and then put fine solder -again radio shack has fine solder -untill it flows on post ,have patience you can do this , as far as the circuit board pull it you dont need it .

tbest · #47 (**permalink**) 05-27-2008, 01:59 PM

Hi ** ~ ~ Imhotep **.
Thanks for this thread and sharing. I am new, but long time reading this forum.
The PC fan: I found a few fan, and all were wound alternately: clockwise and counterclockwise direction, each anchor opposite direction. I have damaged the original winding, so I have to make new ones. The first attempt - everything winding clockwise (fan1.jpg) - does not work. Winding has 7 Ohm, wire 0.3 mm, 200 turns on the anchor.
Picture: fan2.jpg - does not work.
Does someone similar experience?
Even try new winding, weaker wire with greater resistance and alternately clockwise and counterclockwise direction (as fan3.jpg), maybe this will help.
What method of winding recommend?
I'm sorry for my bad English.
Thank you, Tomas

Sephiroth · #48 (**permalink**) 05-27-2008, 02:18 PM

hmmm.... i was worried about that... any links to where I can roughly see the coil configuration?

**~Imhotep~** · #49 (**permalink**) 05-27-2008, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbest

Hi ** ~ ~ Imhotep **.
Thanks for this thread and sharing. I am new, but long time reading this forum.
The PC fan: I found a few fan, and all were wound alternately: clockwise and counterclockwise direction, each anchor opposite direction. I have damaged the original winding, so I have to make new ones. The first attempt - everything winding clockwise (fan1.jpg) - does not work. Winding has 7 Ohm, wire 0.3 mm, 200 turns on the anchor.
Picture: fan2.jpg - does not work.
Does someone similar experience?
Even try new winding, weaker wire with greater resistance and alternately clockwise and counterclockwise direction (as fan3.jpg), maybe this will help.
What method of winding recommend?
I'm sorry for my bad English.
Thank you, Tomas

every fan i have wound has been cw bifiler (two wires together),then ccw bifiler, then cw bifiler, then ccw bifiler (cw =clockwise ccw=counter clockwise) all have worked ,have used large wire 40 winds per pole and small wire.60-80 winds per core, the larger wire required more source voltage 24-36 volts dc hope this helps but remember computer repair shops will some times give you old bad power suppies with fans in them, you can get these fans every where but if you want to rewind cw,ccw cw,ccw, -two wires at the same time will work in most cases. enjoy good luck and dont give up

tbest · #50 (**permalink**) 05-27-2008, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

hmmm.... i was worried about that... any links to where I can roughly see the coil configuration?

No, I dont have any link, my original fan was winding under the third picture from left, but damaged. I tried the second and third type of winding. Perhaps it is to be the last type?

tbest · #51 (**permalink**) 05-27-2008, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by **~Imhotep~**

every fan i have wound has been cw bifiler (two wires together),then ccw bifiler, then cw bifiler, then ccw bifiler (cw =clockwise ccw=counter clockwise) all have worked ,have used large wire 40 winds per pole and small wire.60-80 winds per core, the larger wire required more source voltage 24-36 volts dc hope this helps but remember computer repair shops will some times give you old bad power suppies with fans in them, you can get these fans every where but if you want to rewind cw,ccw cw,ccw, -two wires at the same time will work in most cases. enjoy good luck and dont give up

Thank you. Rewind this evening. I have a motor with a diameter of 42 mm anchors, so much wire ...

**~Imhotep~** · #52 (**permalink**) 05-27-2008, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

hmmm.... i was worried about that... any links to where I can roughly see the coil configuration?

here is jpg

every one i have encountered is cw ccw cw ccw this is dc brushless design -ac is opposite coil outside rotor magnets inside after modding, again tough mod much skills req. most people will want to stick to dc brushless design with existing coils but will work on ac motors and dc brushless.

InTheField · #53 (**permalink**) 05-27-2008, 06:11 PM

I was going to order some of the NewEgg $1.29 fans today... I was talking with one of the techs here at work about it and he said, "I'm taking apart the old computing array and we already have a dozen fans that we're going to toss. You want 'em?" Ummmmm... Hell YEAH!

I have 4-5 different types of fans to mess with to see how they're wound...

I had two this past weekend that were the same make, model, everything, but one was wound differently from the other... Only one of them would spin up. The one that worked has the connected pos and neg windings on adjacent coils. The one that didn't work has the connected pos and neg windings on the coils directly across from each other. Interesting...

ITF

theremart · #54 (**permalink**) 05-27-2008, 06:50 PM

Well last nite I took the fan that did not work and cut off all the fins of the fan, and decided to test out some of my rare earth n50 motor magnets on the fan. It is now spinning at 4100 RPM. And charging very well. However it does pull alot from the primary battery.

I did break out on the fan that I modified normally to try adding relays to the trigger coil. After I added 4 relays the power draw went down to 100 - 150 millaamps with RPS of 3200 - 3600 RPMs. It did not seem to have the charging power, but at this rate I could run the fan at a much longer duration.

I was thinking instead of using relay coils I might try transformer, to see if the gauge of the wire is a factor in the lower draw of the SSG... My theory is the smaller gauge wire is a factor.

**~Imhotep~** · #55 (**permalink**) 05-27-2008, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theremart

Well last nite I took the fan that did not work and cut off all the fins of the fan, and decided to test out some of my rare earth n50 motor magnets on the fan. It is now spinning at 4100 RPM. And charging very well. However it does pull alot from the primary battery.

I did break out on the fan that I modified normally to try adding relays to the trigger coil. After I added 4 relays the power draw went down to 100 - 150 millaamps with RPS of 3200 - 3600 RPMs. It did not seem to have the charging power, but at this rate I could run the fan at a much longer duration.

I was thinking instead of using relay coils I might try transformer, to see if the gauge of the wire is a factor in the lower draw of the SSG... My theory is the smaller gauge wire is a factor.

WOW THATS BEING INNOVATIVE i also took one that i smashed the shroud on and took fat house wiring and spun it into a flat tesla pancake coil for a stand and soldered it to an old stripped circuit board off one of the many i have replicated ,it has large coils so i wanted to salvage it. its a little dangerous because of exposed blades .so now that you have tried that successfully, i might break off the blades and increase the rpms and charge rate (excellent solutions). yea also i have ran one successfully on cheep 5 watt harbour freight solar cell TOTAL FREE ENERGY CHARGE (except for 39 dollar solar panel)

tbest · #56 (**permalink**) 05-27-2008, 07:39 PM

** ~Imhotep ~ ** , thanks, thanks, thanks! Running!
I've used diodes 1N4OO7 & cw-ccw-cw-ccw winding.
After 30-minutes:
Run battery -0.03V,
Charging the battery +0.72 V!
When disconnect the battery charge, bulb glow.
Thank you ** ~ ~ Imhotep **. My happy day!
Tomas

**~Imhotep~** · #57 (**permalink**) 05-27-2008, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbest

** ~Imhotep ~ ** , thanks, thanks, thanks! Running!
I've used diodes 1N4OO7 & cw-ccw-cw-ccw winding.
After 30-minutes:
Run battery -0.03V,
Charging the battery +0.72 V!
When disconnect the battery charge, bulb glow.
Thank you ** ~ ~ Imhotep **. My happy day!
Tomas

you are very welcome, please share all new knowledge with everyone ,it feels so good taking charge of your your own power needs destiny .yea!!!!

tbest · #58 (**permalink**) 05-27-2008, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by **~Imhotep~**

you are very welcome, please share all new knowledge with everyone ,it feels so good taking charge of your your own power needs destiny .yea!!!!

Wound 200 winds per cole 0.3Cu cw-ccw-cw-ccw.
Run battery 12.30V
Charge battery 10.01V
After 30 minutes:
Run battery 12.27V
Charge battery 10.73V
A few pictures.

theremart · #59 (**permalink**) 05-27-2008, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbest

Wound 200 winds per cole 0.3Cu cw-ccw-cw-ccw.
Run battery 12.30V
Charge battery 10.01V
After 30 minutes:
Run battery 12.27V
Charge battery 10.73V
A few pictures.

Can you tell me how many amp hours is your battery? I am curious what size of battery you have. Congrates on getting this going.

Thanks!

mart

theremart · #60 (**permalink**) 05-28-2008, 02:25 AM

Today scope is operational! !!!!!

Attached is a picture of the fan and settings.