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  #181  
Old 05-25-2015, 09:42 PM
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Midaztouch Midaztouch is offline
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When you look at the images, you must remember those motors have 4 inputs when motoring. Dual comm motors have 4 brush sets/4 brush channels... A neg and positive brush set at every magnet, 5 past each magnet.

The key word is during MOTORING only.

Can you see the south and north fields sharing the same armature legs now?
RPMs don't = usable torque

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

Mark I hope you paid attention to the areas where the coils' "Max Density/magnetic strength" is with Group Winds, post #54... You motor is a 12pole 2magnts also. Be careful!!
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  #182  
Old 05-25-2015, 10:37 PM
HuntingRoss HuntingRoss is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midaztouch View Post
When you look at the images, you must remember those motors have 4 inputs when motoring. Dual comm motors have 4 brush sets/4 brush channel... A neg and positive brush set at every magnet, 5 past each magnet.

The key word is during MOTORING only

Can you see the south and north fields sharing the same armature legs now?


Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

Mark I hope you paid attention to the areas where the coils "Max Density" is with Group Winds, post #54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midaztouch View Post
[IMG]

[/IMG]
Before I comment on UFO's schematic above, I'll offer my opinion on the max density 'thing'.

The 'melt down' on his thread with regards to timing and the confusion it seems to cause some (maybe nearly all) people I think is mostly due to the consideration of two live comm segments together at the same time. I think Sam and Gary's comments about coils 'ramping up' to full field is probably correct to some degree.

I favoured the single comm connection idea to estimate the interaction path of one set of energised coils ie. time on brush...and with Sam and Gary's comments I am all the more convinced.

So I think post #54 maybe correct or not, but I think it is misleading. There is A LOT of real world things to consider in the actual operation of fast spinning machines...most of these things make the theoretical just that...a best guess.

Looking at the schematic at the top of the post. With all brushes energising their respective coils as you suggest. The poles firing south are trying to make the shaft 'north' and the coils firing north are trying to make the shaft 'south'.

That certainly doesn't sound like something that is without consequences...I just don't know what those consequences are.

However each coil group north or south does not share its poles with an opposite coil field so in that respect it is a good design in my opinion. Each coil group is using its field to repel out of the magnet area and attract into the next as the field collapses and therefore reinforces the rotation.

I know that in my north / south motor the coils are reinforcing each other. And that seemed like a good thing to do. The flik-flak of the coils from north to south every half turn is an unavoidable consequence of the single comm design. But I was willing to trade.

Good Hunting

mark
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  #183  
Old 05-25-2015, 11:01 PM
HuntingRoss HuntingRoss is offline
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There is one important point I didn't pick up on.

If the design in my previous post is indeed supposed to motor with all the brushes...then we have N / S / N / S field configuration which makes this quote a little hard to sustain :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
Dual Commutator Machines generates a "One Way Flow" within rotating fields...this has long, very long implications that range from flux flows to electrical fields flow...besides no constant colliding of electrons/flux...
The coils will need to flik-flak every quarter turn and that sounds like A LOT of "constant colliding of electrons/flux"

Maybe that is the elephant you're referring to ?

Good Hunting

mark
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  #184  
Old 05-26-2015, 01:15 PM
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Midaztouch Midaztouch is offline
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UFO

No one can have open conversation on your thread. If anyone asks a question that you disagree with, you go ballistic/crazy on them. The same goes on if anyone points out that you made a mistake.


This is open forum. Anything anyone brings here will be scrutinized from people and over the world and from different educational levels. The main objective is to build the best complete unit. To do that, people must explore other concepts and discuss objections. Henceforth the name "Open Source".


For the last 6mts, you have done nothing but insult and vent. No actual Scientific work. I hope that changes soon.


I look forward and I wish you the best of luck on your 1,000,000 clicks celebration. I hope your Grand finale will clear up all doubts. That way, you start your own forum gracefully.


Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

By all means, my thoughts and opinions do not reflect the thoughts of Raul.
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  #185  
Old 05-26-2015, 03:03 PM
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I see Dufo has once again demonstrated he has the mental abilities of a 10 year old bully. I guess since he has lost almost all of his followers he has to find some other thread to harass. Such a sad thing to see a grown-up act so childish. Wait a minute! I made the assumption he was a grown-up. Maybe he really is 10 years old. That would explain why he always turns to insults instead of rational discussion.

Carroll
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  #186  
Old 05-27-2015, 09:47 PM
grounded grounded is offline
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nice clown boots there rich, heheh
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  #187  
Old 05-29-2015, 10:10 PM
grounded grounded is offline
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you need to leave all this ufo stuff behind midaz.
you keep having a go at his ways, in almost all of your posts.

no dis-respect intended, just my observations.
im not favouring anyone, im on both your sides.

hows the bike going by the way ?
whats left to do, fit the chain ? ... and the thumb throttle ?
did you say you were re-wiring the whole motor before fitting it ?

i wanna see it smoke lambo's off the lights (0-30 atleast), after that its not a fair fight.

curious to see what its run-time is too, what amp-hour are the 2 batteries youve got. are they deep cycle ? i cant remember
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  #188  
Old 05-30-2015, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grounded View Post
you need to leave all this ufo stuff behind midaz.
you keep having a go at his ways, in almost all of your posts.

no dis-respect intended, just my observations.
im not favouring anyone, im on both your sides.

hows the bike going by the way ?
whats left to do, fit the chain ? ... and the thumb throttle ?
did you say you were re-wiring the whole motor before fitting it ?

i wanna see it smoke lambo's off the lights (0-30 atleast), after that its not a fair fight.

curious to see what its run-time is too, what amp-hour are the 2 batteries youve got. are they deep cycle ? i cant remember


The bike is no problem. Just small details. The whole thing is the motor. I had a big mistake. I took the motor apart without thinking about running it in series first! The motor seemed to run fine on 12v & 24v to me. I used 18awg @ 220c. I could touch the wires after 30mins at 12v... Everyone said the 20amps at no load was really high, the motor will catch fire, space heater, ect.. So, I let the critics get in my head and l istened to them.. Without thinking it out throughly, I took the A1MoGen apart hastily to rebuild it better... Rookie mistake, My bad!

I wish one person used some constructive criticism and said, "Midaz, run the motor is series. That should drop the amps to a better range."... But it's all good! I should have been thinking instead of listening to the negativity.
At least I found out that the A1MoGen runs like a "Normal" DC Motor on a DC Power Supply.

I built the Imperial North/South motor back in the day. That N/S design had the strongest torque... When I connected the A1MoGen to that big 12v 72amp Bosch Lead Acid battery. The motor was alive! .... The torque had to be comparably/most likely stronger then the north/south wind Imperial. And I only used 23 turns of 18awg for my "test" build. The imperial's magnets are the same size as 5poles. The singular coils use all 5armature pole/legs to drive the motor on repulse mode.

There is NO share of different coils polar fields(N/S) in the armature poles/legs with the A1MoGen = Singular Coils. The armature legs are 100% north or 100% south. I see this as a major advantage! More concrete testing is needed.

I'm playing it cool right now and being patient. I need to use the right gauge wire. I'm thinking about running the motor in series and definitely using 6poles for the singular coil winds.... But I'm open to suggestions on wire gauge.

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

I paid for my motor parts with shipping to Japan. I need to use it the way that seems correct to me or the best way. That has always been my goal.
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  #189  
Old 05-30-2015, 03:01 PM
grounded grounded is offline
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the batteries you mean ?

did you run them in parallel before ?

series :
-------
2 x 12v ... becomes 24v, with half amps.

more speed, with shorter run-time.

parallel :
--------
2 x 12v ... stays 12v, with double amps.

less speed, with longer run-time.

Connecting Batteries in Series or Parallel

id stick with parallel myself probably, if the bike drives ok.
electric vehicles suffer enough already with short run times
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  #190  
Old 05-30-2015, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grounded View Post
the batteries you mean ?

did you run them in parallel before ?

series :
-------
2 x 12v ... becomes 24v, with half amps.

more speed, with shorter run-time.

parallel :
--------
2 x 12v ... stays 12v, with double amps.

less speed, with longer run-time.

Connecting Batteries in Series or Parallel

id stick with parallel myself probably, if the bike drives ok.
electric vehicles suffer enough already with short run times
Your post about battery info is good.


The key point in my last post was testing the motor in series.

With the dual comm motors, you can run the motor in series or parallel ..... The thinking is kind of like your post about batteries.

In Parallel (4inputs) the motor can use more power... In Series (2inputs) the motor can use less power....

Or

In parallel you should use a thinner wire with more turns per coil ... In Series you should use a thicker wire less turns per coil. .... The debate is which way is best. And why!? It's a balancing act of RPMs vs torque, basically.

Kogs has been the best person at wire gauge choices for the Imperial so far. His input/calculations was very valuable for the N/S motor but he hasnt shared any thoughts yet the all North designs... Also, We must wait for Ross to finish his last bit of testing, then he will be able to give some sound advise for wire resistance and ohms targets.


Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz
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  #191  
Old 06-22-2015, 03:04 PM
grounded grounded is offline
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any new updates for the electro-bike ?
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  #192  
Old 06-24-2015, 01:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grounded View Post
any new updates for the electro-bike ?
Hey Grounded

I got most of the major parts for my EV Build. Recently. I haven't done anything physical for the build. My motor is pretty straight forward, no extra brushes.... But I usually think about, how to collect energy with the extra brushes. The thing that intrigues me about collecting energy with the extra brushes is keeping the coil magnetic fields from overlapping.

General consensus with these motors is to run the motor on attract mode and collect energy from the repulsion Induction.

When the motor is powered on attract mode the amps are less and the torque is less...
This is the important part ---> Theoretically, the torque would be increased/added to, when you collect energy on the repulse mode coils.


Do to the nature of the independent brushes, I would use a 24pole, 4 magnet A1MoGen like this....

4 channels in series with the thickest gauge wire as possible without heating for motoring.
&
4 channels(The extra brushes) in parallel for the collection of energy with Amps in mind.

*use singular coils the wrap around each/one rotor pole/leg.


Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz
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  #193  
Old 06-27-2015, 03:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grounded View Post
the batteries you mean ?

did you run them in parallel before ?

series :
-------
2 x 12v ... becomes 24v, with half amps.

more speed, with shorter run-time.

parallel :
--------
2 x 12v ... stays 12v, with double amps.

less speed, with longer run-time.

Connecting Batteries in Series or Parallel

id stick with parallel myself probably, if the bike drives ok.
electric vehicles suffer enough already with short run times


A/Hrs (or capacity) stay the same in series. So 12v 10A/Hr in series with 12v 10A/Hr = 24v 10A/Hr.

Midaz, what type of batteries are you intent on running here? Li-Po? NiMH? SLA?

Regards
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  #194  
Old 06-28-2015, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ren View Post
A/Hrs (or capacity) stay the same in series. So 12v 10A/Hr in series with 12v 10A/Hr = 24v 10A/Hr.

Midaz, what type of batteries are you intent on running here? Li-Po? NiMH? SLA?

Regards
Hi Ren

How are you doing? Building anything? Any thoughts that you want to share?

As far batteries, a dozen bricks of lipos are in the distant future but I will work with what I can get my hands easily and abundant... Lead acid batteries.

Keep it Clean and Greeen
Midaz
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  #195  
Old 07-30-2015, 01:56 PM
DadHav DadHav is offline
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What's up?

Richie,
Did everyone stop working on asymmetric motor projects? There hasn't been anything on either forum for over a month. Are people posting somewhere else?
John
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  #196  
Old 07-31-2015, 04:25 AM
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Richie,
Did everyone stop working on asymmetric motor projects? There hasn't been anything on either forum for over a month. Are people posting somewhere else?
John
Hey John

I don't know what's happening with the other thread. I can only speculate that it's done. After 1 million views, still working on the 5 pole motors and release of forum members personal info... Everyone should be too ashamed to post anything over there. Because of all that nonsense, I do not desire any relationship with that thread.

As for me, currently I'm on a tropical island till the end of the summer.

This long break as given me a lot of time to relax and think. You came to mind a few times. You are one of the few people who has the experience, skill and equipment to build one of these motors properly. So, let me run this by you. I want to see what you think....

16 armature poles, 4 magnets, each armature pole wrapped with a singular coil(the way you suggested)... Motoring on attraction mode & Generator on repel mode, total of 16brushes(8 pairs /channels of brushes)... Or do you have a better idea to work with the parameters of the motor that I gave?


Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz
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  #197  
Old 08-01-2015, 02:09 PM
DadHav DadHav is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midaztouch View Post
Hey John

I don't know what's happening with the other thread. I can only speculate that it's done. After 1 million views, still working on the 5 pole motors and release of forum members personal info... Everyone should be too ashamed to post anything over there. Because of all that nonsense, I do not desire any relationship with that thread.

As for me, currently I'm on a tropical island till the end of the summer.

This long break as given me a lot of time to relax and think. You came to mind a few times. You are one of the few people who has the experience, skill and equipment to build one of these motors properly. So, let me run this by you. I want to see what you think....

16 armature poles, 4 magnets, each armature pole wrapped with a singular coil(the way you suggested)... Motoring on attraction mode & Generator on repel mode, total of 16brushes(8 pairs /channels of brushes)... Or do you have a better idea to work with the parameters of the motor that I gave?


Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz
Hello Richie, I hope you have a good time on vacation. I don't purposely want to discourage you but I still remain skeptical about the whole concept. In three years I haven't seen the slightest evidence to convince me the asymmetrical motor will out perform the OEM. Anyone can make a motor go faster but it's certain to draw more amperage. Until someone shows a demonstration that a motor can have more RPM and or torque than the OEM without drawing more current then it's not better than the symmetrical. Of course it would be a different story if the two where close but you could get additional power from a generator coil. If the generator coil can be sent back to the motor in order to have more RPM's or torque then it still doesn't mean anything unless the current draw doesn't go up higher than the OEM under load. In the beginning the generator coil was supposed to help the motor get closer to unity but there has never been an example of energy savings from it, only additional current draw. If I'm wrong about published test results, I wouldn't mind seeing reference to something to get me enthused. I'm sorry I can't suggest anything that might help. Here's the thing that bothers me. In order to have generator coils you have to give up coils that are your prime movers. Am I wrong about that? Some people actually hook up the generator coil to the battery and think the generator coil is responsibly charging the battery or putting more energy into the motor. If fact the generator coil when connected to the battery turns into a motor coil like the other one. I've watched for a test that shows a motor having the torque of the OEM while not using all the coils to do it but haven't seen it yet. I'll add this though, If you wind each leg separately and add more magnets I'm pretty sure your RPM's will go down. With that though I think there is a possibility that the torque might go up, and therefor you might need less gearing in the power train. So all this along with all the brushes that I detest make me sit back and watch for something exciting to happen and change my mind. If I spend more time on this project it will probably be on a brushless solution to a motor that can save energy. You saw my video a few times I imagine.
Once again Richie I wish you luck and hope you come up with something that works well.
John
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  #198  
Old 08-02-2015, 12:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DadHav View Post
Hello Richie, I hope you have a good time on vacation.

Quote:
I'm having an awesome time!
I don't purposely want to discourage you but I still remain skeptical about the whole concept. In three years I haven't seen the slightest evidence to convince me the asymmetrical motor will out perform the OEM.

Quote:
I've been through the past designs, front to back several times. They HAVE had the speed and torque.
Anyone can make a motor go faster but it's certain to draw more amperage. Until someone shows a demonstration that a motor can have more RPM and or torque than the OEM without drawing more current then it's not better than the symmetrical.

Quote:
Your correct the torque and amp draw has been the bottem line. The past designs have NOT been a game changer.
Of course it would be a different story if the two where close but you could get additional power from a generator coil. If the generator coil can be sent back to the motor in order to have more RPM's or torque then it still doesn't mean anything unless the current draw doesn't go up higher than the OEM under load.

Quote:
We both know that your above statement is everything. After 3yrs of reviewing the past data, I believe the motors were built wrong in the past. Hence forth this thread.
In the beginning the generator coil was supposed to help the motor get closer to unity but there has never been an example of energy savings from it, only additional current draw. If I'm wrong about published test results, I wouldn't mind seeing reference to something to get me enthused.

Quote:
There was never any evidence of CLEAR "Regenerative Acceleration Underload". There were a lot of errors with the past tests. For what ever reasons, they were never corrected. Those mistakes can be deceptive & misleading land minds to the average hobbyist.

Running the motor on attract mode with the Singular Coils with extra brushes to collect energy is the way, I think, Tesla would have built these motors.
I'm sorry I can't suggest anything that might help. Here's the thing that bothers me. In order to have generator coils you have to give up coils that are your prime movers. Am I wrong about that?

Quote:
Yes, your right about that.... BUT, with the singular coils you can increase the torque by almost 40% per armature leg and still have the high rpms. That gives a lot of room to make adjustments.
Some people actually hook up the generator coil to the battery and think the generator coil is responsibly charging the battery or putting more energy into the motor. If fact the generator coil when connected to the battery turns into a motor coil like the other one.

Quote:
The motor and generator coils must be independent/separate BUT work together in harmony for torque, rpm's and efficiency. From what I've gathered, the A1MoGen fits this description.

I've watched for a test that shows a motor having the torque of the OEM while not using all the coils to do it but haven't seen it yet. I'll add this though, If you wind each leg separately and add more magnets I'm pretty sure your RPM's will go down. With that though I think there is a possibility that the torque might go up, and therefor you might need less gearing in the power train.

Quote:
John, adjusting the brushes size or more magnets is cool either way. Again, the singular coils will give you the higher magnetic force. Since the A1MoGen has had high rpms, slowing the motor is desired!
So all this along with all the brushes that I detest make me sit back and watch for something exciting to happen and change my mind. If I spend more time on this project it will probably be on a brushless solution to a motor that can save energy. You saw my video a few times I imagine.

Quote:
You know I watched every vid that you made. Brushless is the way to go but for the time being, I see the brushes as a necessary evil. LOL

Once again Richie I wish you luck and hope you come up with something that works well.
John
John your a prince! Thank you for your response.

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz
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  #199  
Old 09-22-2015, 08:12 PM
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I'm Back!...

from a well deserved, summer long, vacation on the tropical islands of Okinawa, Japan. The beaches were beautiful. Snorkeling was first rate! The zoo and aquarium are a must. Parks were excellent for camping. The people were extremely hospitable and the food is delicious & cheap.

Typhoons! I live on the main land in Japan. We have had some strong ones but nothing like the ones in Okinawa!!! They are soooo powerful that you will get a rain mist from the door hinges that are on a well built concrete home. It's the only time you want to close the curtains then encourage kids to jump on the beds and run around the house throwing balls... As much as they want! ... The typhoons are that strong! LOL

Enough about vacation, back to business/Learing fun. To recap what I did with my A1MoGen before vacation.

1.) Rebuilt the 28 armature pole/4 magnet motor using the Singular Coil method. (18 AWG coils)

2.) Had my A1MoGen tested on a state of the art DC power supply. (Powered up just like a anyother electric motor)

3.) Did test runs with 12v & 24v at home. (Had some sparking)

4.) Ordered a Kelly DC Controller. (24v -72v)

5.) Disassembled my A1MoGen for the next rebuild. (The first test build was made quickly with leftover wire)

6.) Waited for the "Grand Finale" or something, when the "main thread" reached 1 million views. (Nothing happened)

7.) Went to Okinawa, Japan. (Leads us to now... The next rebuild)

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz
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  #200  
Old 09-26-2015, 10:48 PM
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The first "TEST" singular coil "A1MoGen" was powered up on a DC Power supply using the magnets to repulse the motor and the 4 channels/inputs were in parallel. The coils were wound with 220c AIW 18AGW wire... NO EXTRA BRUSHES

After testing Under 26v.
At 20amps with NO Load, the coils were warm/hot to the finger touch directly on the coils. Not close to the coating's 220c temperature rating.

Using my "Guildline Rule", each Singular Coil was wrapped around 5 poles which was the same size as the magnets. The Guildline Rule "coils ABOUT the same size as a magnet" is for motors that are NOT using Extra Brushes! ... Example: The number of armature poles are divide that by the number of magnets. If that # is 5 or greater, my rule applies. 28 poles divided by 4 magnets/stators = 7

Running the A1MoGen in attract or repulse mode is important for "Magnetic Efficiency".
*Attract mode, I would use the same size coil as the magnets or one pole MORE
*Repulse mode, same size as the magnets or one pole MORE


Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz


Using Extra Brushes is completely different!
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  #201  
Old 09-29-2015, 01:30 AM
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OPTIONS


We need the proper amount of resistance for my 4 magnet, 28 armature pole motor. The motor will be wound one of these 3 ways.

1.) All inputs parallels connection...
(Keep in mind that "all parallel connections"... Thin AWG wire is needed.)

2.) The two N. magnets' channels/singular coils in series with two S. magnets' channels/singular coils in series. N & S in parallel.
(AWG of medium thickness)

3.) All four inputs in series.
(series connections... Thick AWG)

* 20awg - 16awg should be the range*

Another factor which determines the AWG is... whether the motor is wound for repulsion or attraction mode.

Here's where my "guideline rule" comes into play.
Quote:
"Guideline Rule", each Singular Coil was wrapped around 5 poles which was the same size as the magnets. The Guildline Rule "coils ABOUT the same size as a magnet" is for motors that are NOT using Extra Brushes! ... Example: The number of armature poles are divide that by the number of magnets. If that # is 5 or greater, my rule applies. 28 poles divided by 4 magnets/stators = 7

*Attract mode, I would use the same size coil as the magnets or one pole MORE
*Repulse mode, same size as the magnets or one pole MORE

Attract mode options = better efficiency... about the same amount/weight of copper being uses.
( At the end of the day, I theorized that the same amount of wattage will be used.)
or
Repulse mode options = better torque and RPMs... about the same amount/weight of copper being uses.
( I theorized that the same amount of wattage will be used.)

Opinions, thoughts?

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz
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Last edited by Midaztouch; 10-01-2015 at 01:30 AM.
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Old 09-30-2015, 10:30 PM
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Midaztouch Midaztouch is offline
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Originally Posted by Midaztouch View Post
[IMG][/IMG]

After 1,000,000 views...
It looks like the torque will be a lot lower than that I'm doing... But about the same rpms.

Also you will need to use a AWG less than 18Awg to have the right resistance(around 19.5awg in a parallel connection).
The thinner AWG will reduce the amout of amps, reducing the wattage.

If your going to try this, only use the RIGHT SIDE diagram.


Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz
This is a broad statement for the people who have the p56 frame like myself. From what Ive observed so far...

Proof from HuntingRoss... if you use your motor for an electric vehicle = torque vs rpms and gearing. Gearing can balance the equation.

Proof from Gary's "Battle of the Winding" is the efficiency and rpms are about the same, when the wire resistance is equal in the above design and the singular coil design I'm making.

And what I learned for myself is the singular coils have MORE magnet strength and ... A Singular Coil motor will have lot more torque when ran on repulse mode and...opposite magnetic fields will never overlap or share the same armature pole... This is proof also.

Everyone's contribution to these motors has been valuable to me but DADHAV's contribution has been an invaluable standout. He has keep everything grounded in reality though thorough testing and experience.

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

Erfinder, now that I have some experience, you were correct from the beginning! Also, like you said years ago...these types of motors should be brushless.
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Old 10-07-2015, 01:03 PM
DadHav DadHav is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midaztouch View Post
This is a broad statement for the people who have the "Imperial P56 motor" like myself. From what Ive observed so far...

Proof from HuntingRoss... if you use your motor for an electric vehicle = torque vs rpms and gearing. Gearing can balance the equation.

Proof from Gary's "Battle of the Winding" is the efficiency and rpms are about the same, when the wire resistance is equal in the above design and the singular coil design I'm making.

And what I learned for myself is the singular coils have MORE magnet strength and ... A Singular Coil motor will have lot more torque when ran on repulse mode and...opposite magnetic fields will never overlap or share the same armature pole... This is proof also.

Everyone's contribution to these motors has been valuable to me but DADHAV's contribution has been an invaluable standout. He has keep everything grounded in reality though thorough testing and experience.

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

Erfinder, now that I have some experience, you were correct from the beginning! Also, like you said years ago...these types of motors should be brushless.
Hello Richie and thank you for the acknowledgement. I never wanted to discourage anyone but thought I was being helpful. Being right about some things isn't as good as seeing someone officially successful with the project. I hope you continue to experiment. I'm with Erf on the brushless topic and as you know I've had a little success but haven't followed up on it.
Take care.
John
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Old 10-07-2015, 02:27 PM
erfinder erfinder is offline
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Erfinder, now that I have some experience, you were correct from the beginning! Also, like you said years ago...these types of motors should be brushless.
I know.....now if you really mean what you say, scrap this project. The original idea was about radiant energy, then it morphed into making motors better using the radiant, in combination with rectifying the CEMF issue.

  • Radiant was never demonstrated.
  • As radiant was never demonstrated, no improvements in performance via the addition of radiant was possible.
  • CEMF was misunderstood and misrepresented. The CEMF issue was therefore never rectified.

I watch with awe as you all moved and at times were moved from topology to topology. The motivators, blinded by the idea of making a better motor. It's interesting possibly even ironic how more often than not, each of those instances when you were a heart beat away from the crappiest motor, you were a breath away from the most perfect generator. I feel it was missed because folks were inspired to find a motor inside a device whose very nature is to generate.....the same researchers abandoned all logic and reason when they wholeheartedly accepted that it was absolutely necessary to burn the generating mechanism at the stake... You were literally instructed to kill the dipole.....LOL. One million helped set that fire and watch it burn...... the fire still burns....

In the spirit of keeping it real, I must express my opinion concerning your machine. The A1MoGen is a motor....the generator aspect is 100% conventional (this opinion is based on what you have shown). The generator aspect in a motor is much more complex than we are taught. Most try to find ways to manipulate it, this includes but is not limited to removing its negative influence at all costs. Is it too much to ask for folks to "try" and learn from it?

When you have it within your power to invert the effect of Lenz so that consumption increases with increasing rpm, (making the motor stronger by adding CEMF to applied.....without diodes in funny places) versus decrease with increasing rpm (the normal effect that CEMF has on consumption), then you are one step closer to being justified in calling your machine a MoGen.

I hope these few lines fell on fertile ground. I mean you no disrespect. I wish you success and wish you well.


Regards
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  #205  
Old 05-09-2016, 07:26 AM
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Hello my fellow nerds

I'm finally back to work on my EV motorcycle project again.

I've decide to wind the A1MoGen with 19.5awg. I thought about using a thicker AWG, 17awg in series but...

I chose to use a parallel connection @ ALL 4 GATES/inputs(*motor only), singular coils wrapped around 7 armature poles, 30turns per coil and the "timing" will be set almost equally between the North & South stator magnets using attract and repulse.

19.5awg is on back order and should be delivered in 10 business days


Keep it Clean & Green
Midaz


Ps. An acquaintance's electric motorcycle. I suggested the motor... #NeverLeftTheGame

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Old 05-09-2016, 05:28 PM
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Fellow Nerds... I say FELLOW Nerds proudly!

My "guideline rule" is to use singular coils about the same size as the magnet or one pole bigger than the magnet. ... It's is a good hint but not a bullseye everytime. Some variables come into play; room/space for coil winding, amount/# of poles and size of commutator brushes.

For example: "Battle of the windings" with the 5 pole motors. By design of the FACTORY commutator brushes, the singular coil(NS3)was at a disadvantage for rpms... Brushes alittle larger than a commutator segment would have given higher RPMS.

The biggest teacher for these Asymmetric motors/generators is the simplest design = The wonderfully simple 3 pole! Its a perfectly flawless example of Singular Coils in harmony with the stator magnets! The singular coil must use(*timing) the North & South stator magnets equally to create magnetic harmony.

From experience: If you deviate from the 3pole example, you lose!!!

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz
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Old 05-09-2016, 05:46 PM
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This is an example of DEVIATING from the 3 pole example


This is my previous work/last build... It is wrong when it's a motor only using the P56's factory brushes
I didn't use the North & South stator magnets equally for magnetic harmony.
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg image.jpeg (364.8 KB, 14 views)
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Old 05-10-2016, 10:26 PM
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Midaztouch Midaztouch is offline
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Timing for the P56

It's all about the timing of the SINGULAR armature coil's magnetic field "Balanced between" the magnetic fields of the North & South stators'/magnets' magnetic fields.

Test from members have shown that...
1.) Repulsion motors are powerful but amps and heat rise
2.) Attraction motors have low amps but the performance is hindered
3.) Repulsion & Attraction motors give you HIGH Performance & Low AMPs during No-load!
(#3 mimics the 3pole example )




How I chose the amount of Armature Poles to wind for the Imperial... (*and most motors)

Number of armature poles divided by the number of stator magnets = suggested max number of poles per section.

P56 frame
Armature Poles ...28
***Divided by***
Stator Magnets ...4
Suggested # of poles = 7
28/4 = 7poles per singular coil (Simple right!? )

Hey! Why not 8 poles or more!?
Ok, if you use all 4 inputs/channels AND wind 8 or more Armature poles...
1.) The coils' magnetic north & south fields share the same magnetic space!
2.) Some armature poles have to project a North & South field(s)... At the same time!
*I don't know about you but that does NOT sound like MAGNETIC HARMONY to me.*

(If you want to use 2 inputs/channels only... 8 poles would work but I like 11 poles better. )

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz
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Old 05-11-2016, 05:22 AM
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For some clarity

I don't want to confuse anybody from the earlier past posts


Getting back to the basics

When I started this thread, it was about singular coils around the same size as the stator magnet with adding extra brushes. Adding the extra brushes was/is very important because they would give you the option of mimicing the "3 pole motor's" magnetic interaction and/or drawing energy... It was my thoughts on how to modify the Imperial P56.

What I'm presenting now has nothing to do with "extra brushes". It's just a simple straight forward motor build ONLY. I'm following the 3 pole motor example's principles and how I understand them... It's not complicated at all.

There are a lot of members with the Imperial P56 motor frame(s) collecting dust. Everything that I'm doing is just a little common sense. Most of you guys have excellent motor building skills but it's not required. IT'S THAT SIMPLE!

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz
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Last edited by Midaztouch; 05-16-2016 at 12:32 AM.
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Old 05-15-2016, 12:56 AM
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Midaztouch Midaztouch is offline
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Some History

Hello

Just a little history about "Independent Coil"/"2 Commutator" motors. Faraday and Tesla were the first known people that worked with them. As we all know, a 3 pole motor is the base for these types of motors. The three pole motor, being the base/foundation, would have been used as an example for their future builds. I'm pretty sure that they tried different winding styles but it would have forced them to come back to the singular coil(s). (The reason I said that is... As a group, on this forum, it's exactly what we did!)


During the big "start" of EV DIY, I was scouring the Internet about and for electric motors, I ran into a you tuber by the name of DragonToko. He just posted a video about his thoughts on a "NEW" winding in October 2011. His video was a big hit! I watched a video many times but I didn't understand it. (I was a green rookie)lol...

"Independent Coil" motors came to Energetic Forum in July 2012. After working on these motors with the "Team" for a while, it hit me! We're doing the same thing DragonToko did in 2011 with a Tesla 2 commutator frame! In the video DragonToko said, "Its not my design because someone definitely tried it before." He was absolutely right. Faraday and Tesla did!

Here is Toyodragon's video. Please notice that he set the "coil timing" equally on the south and north stator magnets....
(*A member made a similar motor design, using one commutator.)


The comments and dates are always helpful to read.



Variables and challenges:
Looked for optimal ohms .... ohms .9 ~ 1.3
Number and size of stators
Number of armature poles and how many to wind
Brush size
Coils' bisectors and stators' bisectors interaction
Lastly... Torque
(*Orientation of the magnetic domains an armature pole from the coils)


Using all of the info above has lead me to wind the Imperial P56...
19.5AWG for optimal ohm range, Independent singular coils of 7poles @ 30-34 turns
(*The magnetic domains of an armature poles NEVER share south and north orientation. All projected north and south magnetic fields never share the same "air space")

TIMING of the P56 energized coils is between the north stators bisector and the south magnet stators' bisectors is almost equal. This will allow you to achieve maximum RPMs and torque. (*Maximum amount of turns for the two coils energized by the brushes, starts a tiny bit after TDC on the repulsion field bisectors of the stator magnets)

Keep it Clean & Green
Midaz
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Last edited by Midaztouch; 05-22-2016 at 09:17 AM.
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