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  #61  
Old 05-01-2015, 05:20 AM
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Midaztouch Midaztouch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midaztouch April 27th View Post
Ran my motor on a DC Power Supply today!

After a long ride with many big bumps and going over many curbs, a wire came loose and got lodged under the magnets. I heard something scraping when I was running the motor in their lobby but I had to play it cool and didn't want touch/adjust the motor. I just let it spin and smiled.

The engineer staff drag me up 2 long fights of stairs and all the way across the warehouse at top speed! I was carrying the 45lbs A1MoGen. They said 5mins that's it... I was a little upset with their treatment but hey, beggars can't be choosy. Anyway, I only needed 3 mins and the A1MoGen got checked on a DC Power Supply.

The results from the Vid

Lowest setting = 1.9volts @ 21amps...40watts starts RPMs(a lot of mechanical drag)
Highest setting = 20volts @ 21amps

I had to stop going up in voltage. I heard a loud "PING" in the motor. I thought about, going up in voltage after the loud ping but I decide to live and fight another day ... The "ping" was the wire lodged under the magnet. When I got home, I pull the wire out and it ran smoothly/no scraping... Instead of using all 28 coils, I will have 27 coils, for now...

Conclusion: The A1MoGen was a success on the DC Power Supply. In my opinion, it's a VIABLE high-performance electric motor!

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz
Got carried away on the main thread and forgot to post the vid here.

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  #62  
Old 05-03-2015, 02:30 PM
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sampojo sampojo is offline
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Question on broken coil

Hey Midaz, so you broke a coil wire on the test? Did I get that right? I gather it is not like the last coil you wound and and can then be easily rewound (not that lucky) so you are going ahead with the open coil? I'd try a solder patch if nothing else. I thought these imperials used hedges so they won't slip out. Do you have your rotor marked so that you know how many coils down from the last one wound it is? Down 2 or 3, you only need to do the last three over. Usually it is always one of the last to be wound that slip out too.
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  #63  
Old 05-04-2015, 05:03 AM
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Midaztouch Midaztouch is offline
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Originally Posted by sampojo View Post
Hey Midaz, so you broke a coil wire on the test? Did I get that right? I gather it is not like the last coil you wound and and can then be easily rewound (not that lucky) so you are going ahead with the open coil? I'd try a solder patch if nothing else. I thought these imperials used hedges so they won't slip out. Do you have your rotor marked so that you know how many coils down from the last one wound it is? Down 2 or 3, you only need to do the last three over. Usually it is always one of the last to be wound that slip out too.
Hey Sam

I took the motor apart to to assess the damage

1.) The 16awg wire didn't snap but it got severely damaged. Luckily it was from the last coil. I used fiberglass hedges and they side in and out smoothly. I had to go over many curbs and the road were bumpy on my bicycle. Some hedges slid down and the wire looped out.

2.) Two magnets were chipped by the wire. I have a new extra housing. I Thank GOD for Imperial Electric sending me two.

3.) Damaged a lead wire. Don't know when and how that happened.

Basically, everything is fixable.

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz
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  #64  
Old 05-04-2015, 07:31 PM
DadHav DadHav is offline
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What's up, Watts R Up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midaztouch View Post
Got carried away on the main thread and forgot to post the vid here.

Richie, Do I understand what I saw? The power supply had an output setting of 2 volts with a maximum current limit of 40 amps. The monitor voltage of the running motor was 1.9 volts and was drawing over 20 amps with no load? Did you happen to notice the amp draw at 26 volts before you shut the power supply down? I'm just guessing but I wouldn't expect an OEM motor to draw less than 20 amps at it's full voltage specification if there was no load. I could be all wrong and I hope your up coming tests will prove it so.
John
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  #65  
Old 05-04-2015, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by DadHav View Post
Richie, Do I understand what I saw? The power supply had an output setting of 2 volts with a maximum current limit of 40 amps. The monitor voltage of the running motor was 1.9 volts and was drawing over 20 amps with no load? Did you happen to notice the amp draw at 26 volts before you shut the power supply down? I'm just guessing but I wouldn't expect an OEM motor to draw less than 20 amps at it's full voltage specification if there was no load. I could be all wrong and I hope your up coming tests will prove it so.
John
Hey John

First, there was a 18 awg wire between the rotor & magnet, mechanical drag.

The motor was drawing around 20amps the whole time... Would you think that is more or less than an OEM?

I said go up to 26v in the vid but we only got to 20v.(head engineer & staff didnt want any to do with my motor, DIFFICULT situation!) After that short run the motor case was normal room temp... Now saying that, the motor will be very warm to the touch after running 12.5v - 13v @ 1900 - 2000rpms for 20mins... The rotor is not balanced. Could that be a cause heat?

My 36ah car battery is dead, under 12v, in 40mins...

Sparking becomes less the more you run the motor... But in the same breath, the higher the voltage the more the sparking.

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

Some magnet damage from the wire durning the run.
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  #66  
Old 05-05-2015, 12:49 AM
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Pulled the A1MoGen apart and did repairs.

1.) I had to threw out the coil what was damaged. The damage was right at the center section of the coil. The replacement coil is 15 turns.. It's all the 16awg I had left.

2.) Swapped out the damage rotor housing. Had to use some oil and "the persuader", a rubber hammer, to massage out the kinks.

3.) Change the positive lead that was damaged.

4.) Tighten the screws that hold the brushes in place. Due to the heavy vibrations, many were loose.

5.) Cleaned out and up the commutators.

Adjusted the timing to 2000rpm @ 13volts. The sparking was just like the first day I made the A1MoGen... Sparking and ruff running should subside when the brushes seat again.

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz
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  #67  
Old 05-05-2015, 05:20 PM
DadHav DadHav is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midaztouch View Post
Hey John

First, there was a 18 awg wire between the rotor & magnet, mechanical drag.

The motor was drawing around 20amps the whole time... Would you think that is more or less than an OEM?

I said go up to 26v in the vid but we only got to 20v.(head engineer & staff didnt want any to do with my motor, DIFFICULT situation!) After that short run the motor case was normal room temp... Now saying that, the motor will be very warm to the touch after running 12.5v - 13v @ 1900 - 2000rpms for 20mins... The rotor is not balanced. Could that be a cause heat?

My 36ah car battery is dead, under 12v, in 40mins...

Sparking becomes less the more you run the motor... But in the same breath, the higher the voltage the more the sparking.

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

Some magnet damage from the wire durning the run.

Hey Richie. I'm afraid I'm not familiar enough with the OEM motor and especially not a modified motor of that size. I wouldn't think the balance would cause a large increase in the heat but it can make testing pretty uncomfortable right? I hope when someone comes up with some accurate tests that they end up being positive. The low voltage test got my attention though, but I would have liked to see low current as well. Asking to much right?
Good Luck
John
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  #68  
Old 05-05-2015, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by DadHav View Post
Hey Richie. I'm afraid I'm not familiar enough with the OEM motor and especially not a modified motor of that size. I wouldn't think the balance would cause a large increase in the heat but it can make testing pretty uncomfortable right? I hope when someone comes up with some accurate tests that they end up being positive. The low voltage test got my attention though, but I would have liked to see low current as well. Asking to much right?
Good Luck
John
John

The thing that catches my eyes is, how fast the 12v battery dies.
Good and cheap discount 12v car battery.


I made some repairs and ran/"break in" the A1MoGen for 1hr 40.
Here are the results on fresh car batteries after the rebuild:

Starting volts = 13.5
Cold motor start = 1860rpms
Max RPMs = 2250 warmed up/hot
End volts = 11.94 ( as soon as it gets to the ending voltage, the RPMs drop drastically)
No load = 35 mins
End Battery voltage after a 30 mins rest = 12.13v

Here is the specs from the OEM: Permanent Magnet Motor - 56 Frame


Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

The "detailed information" for the charger I bought is in all Japaneses. (Difficult to understand)

The charger is 12v @ 15amps but the battery information said it should be charged @ 4.5amps.

The charger says that the battery is usually ready to in 1hour... But the battery info said that the battery would need 10hr - 12hrs to charge.

Maybe the batteries are quick charged only???
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  #69  
Old 05-05-2015, 09:34 PM
HuntingRoss HuntingRoss is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midaztouch View Post
My 36ah car battery is dead, under 12v, in 40mins...
A fully charged 36ah battery going dead in 40 mins equates to 54A...@ 12v equates to 648W.

Keep Hunting

mark
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  #70  
Old 05-06-2015, 12:15 PM
HuntingRoss HuntingRoss is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midaztouch View Post
My 36ah car battery is dead, under 12v, in 40mins...
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuntingRoss View Post
A fully charged 36ah battery going dead in 40 mins equates to 54A...@ 12v equates to 648W.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midaztouch View Post
OMG... It's Captain Obvious!!!

For real!? You are so smart! A Genius, you are! I never would have figured that out, without you! Thank you teaching me something new! You are really awesome! Nope, your #s are off! I'm using lead acid, NOT a DC Power supply

Ross, just like I told you before, don't come around here. Go play in the middle of a busy street/main page. I don't need your thoughts... At all!

Go open your own thread.
So to recap :

1 - A 36ah car battery is 'dead' in '40 mins' and the icon used was 'confused'.
2 - An estimate of power consumption was calculated.
3 - And the response is - 'I never would have figured that out'...

Well obviously, otherwise no need for the 'hanging' question followed by the 'confused' icon. The 'no load' power consumption of the motor is taking the 36ah battery down in 40 minutes.

4 - And 'I'm using lead acid, NOT a DC Power supply'.

That was explicit in the comment 36ah car battery.

And finally. What are my '#s' and why are they 'off'

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  #71  
Old 05-06-2015, 02:21 PM
DadHav DadHav is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midaztouch View Post
John and All

Permanent Magnet Motor - 56 Frame
Brochure: http://www.imperialelectric.com/pdfs/imperial_pmm.pdf

I want to highlight this... Please look at the brochure on the OEMs homepage.

OEM #P56 LD 009

5hp/3.7kw (36v X 128ah = 4608w)

Max torque = 11ft/lbs.... 15Nm

Max Amps = 128

36volts = 2450rpms
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The A1MoGen will match the OEMs 2450RPMs on 15volts...
(When I do a complete rebuild, the way I really want it, the volts will be lower)


To the OEMs torque of 15Nm is no problem!

And let's look at AMPs and use the OEMs spec of 3700watts and 15volts for the A1MoGen to match the OEMs 2450rpms @ 36v.

3700watts \ 15v = 247amps.... The A1MoGen on 247amps...that's torque! But it would never use that much.

Conclusion: I believe, Electrical horsepower rating is secondary for the A1MoGen.... Torque is the most important!

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

John, I put my money/bet on the rabbit.
Hello Richie, I'll probably be stating the obvious because I don't read every word or even every post but let me drop a few observations and you can see if there's something worthwhile extracting. Your battery drain isn't unusual is it? A 36 ah capacity battery that depletes in 40 minutes under load means the load was about 24 amps to start and likely went lower as voltage dropped. That's what the power supply showed as current draw with your motor under test no?
You may be damaging your battery with a large charger. I think if you check the rate for keeping a LAB in top condition would to charge and discharge at C-20 rates. That would be about 1.8 amps. Of course this would make the battery very impractical to use and you would need to use the Turtle technique. The people selling batteries want to sell them as fast as they can be replaced. LiPo is the way to go. If you have a meter on your charger see if it is actually charging at it's maximum rate.
Your Rabbit can duplicate the same RPM as the OEM at nearly half the voltage right? That would be wonderful if it didn't just mean the rabbit has twice the KV of the OEM. In my opinion no one since the start of the motor project has ever proven that the modified motor can produce the same horsepower and RPM as the OEM while drawing less wattage. I proved to myself the opposite on every motor mod I tried and posted video showing how important it was to understand what RPM's per volt (KV) actually means and that it doesn't mean the motor is stronger and more efficient if it's faster. I never updated the video because results didn't change for me. What's different about me is I don't fade away into the woodwork. I'll stick to what I believe and see, until someone proves something otherwise. I hope they do. I hope that person is you. I'll make a video of me dropping the confetti from my R/C plane as I promised Raul.
Good luck
John
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  #72  
Old 05-06-2015, 08:25 PM
grounded grounded is offline
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is there any way to get this motor to self run ?
ive been experimenting a bit with the charge side of the circuit, to see, and came to this conclusion. (by no means accurate) .. just what i noticed.

- charge wires disconnected = normal speed

- charge power recycled back into motor = double speed

- charging separate battery = half speed

dissapointed about the half speed charging... is there any way round this ? .. by wrapping the coils differently, or using diodes on the wires, or something ?

i know you mentioned in one of your video's about using it as a generator, and it creating drag.

looking forward to the next update. it looks like your bike is pretty much ready to run
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  #73  
Old 05-06-2015, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DadHav View Post
Hello Richie, I'll probably be stating the obvious because I don't read every word or even every post but let me drop a few observations and you can see if there's something worthwhile extracting.
Thank you for always keeping things, around these motors, in prospective

Quote:
Your battery drain isn't unusual is it? A 36 ah capacity battery that depletes in 40 minutes under load means the load was about 24 amps to start and likely went lower as voltage dropped. That's what the power supply showed as current draw with your motor under test no?
Yes, the DC power supply showed around 21 amps steady under no load. That was with the wire stuck causing friction. I was hoping that the amp draw would have been allot less with it out.

Quote:
You may be damaging your battery with a large charger.
I bought the best cheapest batteries I could find... Just for simple tests before I spent real money.

Quote:
I think if you check the rate for keeping a LAB in top condition would to charge and discharge at C-20 rates. That would be about 1.8 amps. Of course this would make the battery very impractical to use and you would need to use the Turtle technique. The people selling batteries want to sell them as fast as they can be replaced.
Agreed.

Quote:
LiPo is the way to go.
The A1MoGen was the first successful 4 stator motor tested on a power supply. Now that I know these motors are ready. I want lipos.

Quote:
If you have a meter on your charger see if it is actually charging at it's maximum rate.
again, I bought the best & cheapest charger I could find. No meters


Quote:
Your Rabbit can duplicate the same RPM as the OEM at nearly half the voltage right?
Yes


Quote:
That would be wonderful if it didn't just mean the rabbit has twice the KV of the OEM. In my opinion no one since the start of the motor project has ever proven that the modified motor can produce the same horsepower and RPM as the OEM while drawing less wattage.
Yes, you are absolutely correct in your statement. I didn't like anything that was being displayed. In the past, the only design that I liked for torque was the North/South wind but it lost in the Head to Head against the OEM because it was too power hungry... That's was when I knew that the I was correct with the singular coils the proceed to build the A1MoGen.


Quote:
I proved to myself the opposite on every motor mod I tried and posted video showing how important it was to understand what RPM's per volt (KV) actually means and that it doesn't mean the motor is stronger and more efficient if it's faster.
but you haven't tried it MY way... Singular coils

Quote:
I never updated the video because results didn't change for me. What's different about me is I don't fade away into the woodwork.
There was no need for you to. Unless Gary can prove the super efficient sweet spot. I still support your finding against the Pair Wind.

Quote:
I'll stick to what I believe and see, until someone proves something otherwise. I hope they do. I hope that person is you. I'll make a video of me dropping the confetti from my R/C plane as I promised Raul.
Good luck
John

People want to build my motor but they are confused. Give the singular coils a try.
Saving the best for last, type deal


Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz
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  #74  
Old 05-06-2015, 10:12 PM
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Midaztouch Midaztouch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grounded View Post
is there any way to get this motor to self run ?
ive been experimenting a bit with the charge side of the circuit, to see, and came to this conclusion. (by no means accurate) .. just what i noticed.

- charge wires disconnected = normal speed

- charge power recycled back into motor = double speed

- charging separate battery = half speed

dissapointed about the half speed charging... is there any way round this ? .. by wrapping the coils differently, or using diodes on the wires, or something ?

i know you mentioned in one of your video's about using it as a generator, and it creating drag.

looking forward to the next update. it looks like your bike is pretty much ready to run
OU and self runner has never been proven. It's a goal.

This thread is about my theory/thesis, the way I see/saw how Tesla would have made a motor. The A1MoGen, singular coils, is the only way to add brushes and collect the collapsing field's energy.

Yeah, the bike is basically ready

Midaz
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  #75  
Old 05-07-2015, 12:20 PM
HuntingRoss HuntingRoss is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
According to your set up ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midaztouch View Post
Pay very close attention to UFOs wording! His Pair Wind design, limits motors with 4 or more magnets.
Paying closer attention the comment was qualified and nowhere did it imply the interpretation you have taken.

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  #76  
Old 05-07-2015, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HuntingRoss View Post
Paying closer attention the comment was qualified and nowhere did it imply the interpretation you have taken.

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mark

Singular coils work for EVERY... Not some... but every!


The reason WHY you can't understand these motors is ... After 6mts and the help from me, UFO and other knowledgeable members, you still haven't built one properly yet.

Mark, on a serious note. Not being sarcastic or rude... Do you have a learning disability?

Midaz
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  #77  
Old 05-07-2015, 07:53 PM
HuntingRoss HuntingRoss is offline
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Originally Posted by Midaztouch View Post
Singular coils work for EVERY... Not some... but every!
Not so !

I built your single coil motor months ago and it remains the most power hungry space heater I have ever built in my short motor career...@ 7.0A @ 5v @ 1795 rpm 'no load'.

So I'm not surprised at your recent 'test' results indicating huge 'no load' power consumption.

By way of comparison. The motor I built and prony tested last night, meaning under heavy load, was 6.76A @ 8.97v @ 959 rpm. No load figures, 0.4A @ 10.26v @ 2556 rpm. The motor hardly warmed up during the entire test.

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  #78  
Old 05-07-2015, 11:10 PM
HuntingRoss HuntingRoss is offline
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Originally Posted by Midaztouch View Post
Please read the bottom on post 101, first.
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Originally Posted by Midaztouch View Post
Last edited by Midaztouch; 04-24-2015 at 01:10 AM.
OK. Did that ?

But that, of course, doesn't answer the serious question of how to replicate the A1MG because there are no schematics and no test results to bench mark against.

I think I'm the first and only to report on a build that I believe replicates your A1MG and found it to be a very efficient heater unit. Not strong and not particularly fast and a 'gas' guzzler, which your recent posts is starting to confirm.

I did ask for spec data so I could correct any errors so that I may reappraise the build but nothing was offered in return. As far as I'm aware the build is a fair replication of what is on offer here.

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Old 05-08-2015, 05:38 AM
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John


You have been right so many times... I'm afraid to bet against you... Your making me nervous!

Why did you say, you would bet on the TURTLE in this race?

I've decide to rebuild the A1MoGen from the ground up perfectly before I put it in my electric motorcycle...
I was just about to order wire... but YOU came to mind with your turtle before I pressed send.

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

I wanted to try some drag racing but being able to travel round trip for an hour is what is really needed.
A simple case of "Wants vs Needs"
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Old 05-09-2015, 12:38 PM
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Midaztouch Midaztouch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HuntingRoss View Post

I built your single coil motor months ago and it remains the most power hungry space heater I have ever built in my short motor career...@ 7.0A @ 5v @ 1795 rpm 'no load'.

So I'm not surprised at your recent 'test' results indicating huge 'no load' power consumption.

By way of comparison. The motor I built and prony tested last night, meaning under heavy load, was 6.76A @ 8.97v @ 959 rpm. No load figures, 0.4A @ 10.26v @ 2556 rpm. The motor hardly warmed up during the entire test.

Happy Hunting

mark
Ohms spec for asymetric motors: 1.2 - 1.4ohms = No Heat... I was seeing what I could get a way with this first build for the future!

Now use the same wire length that you have for the motor you had pony tested last night(CAD!?) and make a Singular Coil hybrid design. You'll have at least 25% more torque, around the same RPMs and once you find a "Sweet Spot", you might have the same amp draw. Use 5poles for the Singular Coil hybrid design.

Singular Coils work for every. Including your work.

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

I would have told you earlier but you were acting up. You never would have found the ohms specs because you still haven't read the whole thread... Now YOU come correct

Plus it's spring time... Time to go outside and play with the kids on the scooter.
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Old 05-12-2015, 06:11 AM
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#2[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
Hello my friend Midaz, Hello to All,


Ok,Midaz, after we exchange some mails, I think I've got your idea and points.

This concept will work, no doubt about that, and I believe you are right about concentrating the magnetic field within a single coil will 'compact' (let me say it this way) the strength in lesser poles and will not split coils in two. This splitting deviates the bisector angle,or it becomes two bisectors...either one, and yes, it will weaken it somehow. I was going by flux transfer at common shared coils from one to the other...

I like to try this in a Radio Shack first...and see what it does.

If I got it right, the CAD Diagram should look like below:

The only thing that must be done for it to be timed properly, would be to move for a short angle the brushes towards the rotation sense...like 5 to 10 degrees in order to avoid bisector engagement between stators and coil being fired.

Either move the brushes...or rotate both commutators to proper angle (counter to rotation) when assembling rotor, then have brushes at exact alignment to stators center.

So, yeah, let's give it a try friend...we never know, we are all experimenting here....and this is a 'Democracy' here in the Open Source spirit...

I like the simplicity of this configuration...and like I said...You are right, it makes sense...You may have seen what I have missed prior when dissecting the three poles and starting to walk into the All North concept.

For comparison purposes I will wind the RS Motor this way with the same number of turns and gauge, as I did when I made the video where N-S Pairs versus All North Pairs was made, differentiating from the all N Pairs that I would try to fit the two coils total turns into just one coil and two poles.

I will try to "squeeze" this new project in front of my BIG pile of pending work...


Regards Friend


Ufopolitics
"This concept will work, no doubt about that, and I believe you are right about concentrating the magnetic field within a single coil will 'compact' (let me say it this way) the strength in lesser poles and will not split coils in two. This splitting deviates the bisector angle,or it becomes two bisectors...either one, and yes, it will weaken it somehow. I was going by flux transfer at common shared coils from one to the other..."


Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz
Not only did UFO agree with me, ALL the original "TEAM" members that I spoke to agreed also.
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Old 05-12-2015, 07:17 AM
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Midaztouch Midaztouch is offline
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Love it UFO!
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Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post


[IMG][/IMG

UFO you made a great screen shot! That's exactly how I felt about your designs! Perfect!

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Originally Posted by Midaztouch View Post



Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz



Facts about asymetric motors is what everyone is watching for.


The pair and group wind asymetric motors are NOT game changers!... Nothing special here.
IMO, There is no need to replicate these motor designs if you can't have regenerative acceleration/0 magnetic drag.

Midaz
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Old 05-12-2015, 01:23 PM
grounded grounded is offline
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are you just waiting for that gear sprocket before you can test drive it ?

curious to see how it goes, and how long the juice lasts.

whats the original specs of the motor ?
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Old 05-12-2015, 02:05 PM
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Midaztouch Midaztouch is offline
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are you just waiting for that gear sprocket before you can test drive it ?

curious to see how it goes, and how long the juice lasts.

whats the original specs of the motor ?
I took the motor apart last week to rebuild it. The first build was just a test to prove it has torque and RPMs. I made the motor and made this thread at the same time... When I made the motor I was thinking about drag racing. Then I changed my mind to be more practical.

I orded new tires. When the tires arrive, I will take the bike over to the shop to have the sprockets and chain aligned and tires put on at the same time... But I still want to try for the 24v record some day.

I'm waiting for John to explain his turtle.
Then I will order wire.

Here is the OEM specs:
Permanent Magnet Motor - 56 Frame

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

Grounded, what's your back round with motors?
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Old 05-12-2015, 02:18 PM
DadHav DadHav is offline
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John


You have been right so many times... I'm afraid to bet against you... Your making me nervous!

Why did you say, you would bet on the TURTLE in this race?

I've decide to rebuild the A1MoGen from the ground up perfectly before I put it in my electric motorcycle...
I was just about to order wire... but YOU came to mind with your turtle before I pressed send.

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

I wanted to try some drag racing but being able to travel round trip for an hour is what is really needed.
A simple case of "Wants vs Needs"
Richie, I saw the video you posted today and have to say it's refreshing to see your candor. Turtle & the Hare? For me it goes back over 60 years. At around 10 or 11 years old I started building rubber band powered model airplanes. I wanted the planes to stay in the air longer so I put extra strands on to get more power. Wow I almost tore the wings off one of my little airplanes but it fell from the air before it could make a circle to come back to me. I changed back to the regular setup and guess what? the plane made two complete circles and landed almost in front of me. We all know with the thinner motor I could get far more turns on the rubber band motor to generate power for a longer time. I should say less RPM's for more time. Anyway for years if a person wanted a fast electric motor he would use heavy wire and less turns and if he wanted slow and strong he would use thin wire with many more turns. Saying again FAST might get you to the finish line (Rabbit) faster but will run out of energy before returning to the starting line. Oh oh, here comes the turtle, slower but with energy to spare. Unless I've missed something for years people here have ignored the fact that you pay for speed with current draw. This commodity is somehow always missing from the testing. Let me ask a question that might or might not make any sense: I'll ask it of myself for that matter. If I wanted to make a motor to win a race or perform a task, would I put a generator coil on it? Why would I want to do that? If, for an example, I have a 12 notch armature I will have only 6 notches or legs pushing or pulling from the field magnets instead of all 12. I can't use the generator section for anything yet because I've seen that if I run anything at all with it including trying to recycle energy, that it loads the motor down and only draws more current. I can put the generator coils in parallel with the motor and still likely have higher current draw. (Rabbit) I can also put the generator coils in series with the motor coils. What would I have? Twice the wire, twice the resistance, all 12 legs of the armature working to provide power and torque, and I use half the current from the batteries. That sounds like a perfect example of the TURTLE. In my simple tests the result made a motor almost as good as the OEM. Richie I've seen very few convincing videos of regenerative acceleration. The two I have of my own aren't possible for me to explain so I avoid talking about them most of the time. I's far from being demonstrated on these two forums at this time. Capturing energy from collapsing coils? How can I do that? I've learned from everyone who has had successful radiant energy experiments that I need a lot of wire, fast cut off on the coils, constant and specific magnet passes etc. There are other things going on in the laminations that are hard to figure out and contend with. Eddy currents, transformer effects, radiant maybe. It's gonna take a lot of work to find a way to combine these elements and use them usefully. I could go on for hours explaining my personal feelings about why I stopped building these brushed motors. Anyway Midas, I'm pretty sure most people never bothered to read this far but I appreciate it if they did. I will still hope that one of you guys that have the guts to hang in there this far comes up with something that makes all the time people spent here worth while.
As always these are only my opinions and will gladly except corrections.
John
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Old 05-12-2015, 02:27 PM
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Midaztouch Midaztouch is offline
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John,

Your always awesome and thorough


Keep it Clean and Green!

Midaz
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Old 05-12-2015, 07:41 PM
HuntingRoss HuntingRoss is offline
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Hi John

I have no doubt in the wisdom and experience of what you say mirrored in my own experiences too.

I have found one of my motors to output more voltage than the PSU input. I still have no satisfactory explanation for this. When I attach an inductive load to the generator output about 80% of that load is added to the motor input load. In real terms there is no benefit in doing this that I can see at the moment.

As a result of this I am focusing on the maximising torque against power input and I am steadily moving towards a better design and I am number crunching in a spreadsheet to see where the advantages are across a number of competing wind designs.

Once I have settled on a favoured design I will focus on differing load types to see if the output is better harvested via batteries or super-caps. My initial thoughts are, to use the generator output in a 'regenerative' sense and thereby avoid the additional load on the motor battery resource. Like you, doing both at once appears to be very problematic at these initial stages of research.

As an example. I have a motor which is generating 28% more torque at 110% more rpm for 90% more power consumption. Through road and bench testing I hope to determine if throttle control can achieve parity on the torque which in theory reduces the additional power consumption to 51% with an undetermined drop in rpm. Eventually coupled to generative harvesting of the output leads, this may be an increased radius of operation on the batteries. In Theory !!

Happy Hunting

mark
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Old 05-12-2015, 10:34 PM
DadHav DadHav is offline
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Hi John

I have no doubt in the wisdom and experience of what you say mirrored in my own experiences too.

I have found one of my motors to output more voltage than the PSU input. I still have no satisfactory explanation for this. When I attach an inductive load to the generator output about 80% of that load is added to the motor input load. In real terms there is no benefit in doing this that I can see at the moment.

As a result of this I am focusing on the maximising torque against power input and I am steadily moving towards a better design and I am number crunching in a spreadsheet to see where the advantages are across a number of competing wind designs.

Once I have settled on a favoured design I will focus on differing load types to see if the output is better harvested via batteries or super-caps. My initial thoughts are, to use the generator output in a 'regenerative' sense and thereby avoid the additional load on the motor battery resource. Like you, doing both at once appears to be very problematic at these initial stages of research.

As an example. I have a motor which is generating 28% more torque at 110% more rpm for 90% more power consumption. Through road and bench testing I hope to determine if throttle control can achieve parity on the torque which in theory reduces the additional power consumption to 51% with an undetermined drop in rpm. Eventually coupled to generative harvesting of the output leads, this may be an increased radius of operation on the batteries. In Theory !!

Happy Hunting

mark
I have no doubt in the wisdom and experience of what you say mirrored in my own experiences too.
Mark most of the things I say aren't making me happy. I know how hard you and the other guys are working here. Even Midas wants to do well but he just needs an exorcism or something. Just kidding Richie! Well that isn't fair, Maybe Raul too. Ha, just kidding Raul! I know it wouldn't do well for me to say this has all gone to far but I wish everyone could get back to business and bring something positive out of this effort. I don't mean to play devils advocate but if I can make someone awarepeople are missing the things that they should be thinking about or found in their prior knowledge searches, then I'll take it on the chin and mention it. There's nothing more valuable than finding someone with similar interests and usable knowledge on the subject.[/COLOR]

I have found one of my motors to output more voltage than the PSU input. I still have no satisfactory explanation for this. When I attach an inductive load to the generator output about 80% of that load is added to the motor input load. In real terms there is no benefit in doing this that I can see at the moment.
Exactly Mark. If you are referring to the connecting the generator coil in series to an already running prime mover this is what you might expect. You already have the battery voltage over the motor coils and commutator then you add the generator voltage in series to the battery voltage. No one seemed to understand that and this is what lead to me being called s**t for brains in the earlier posts. LOL. Do you remember hearing "Over Unity Galore" I wish I'd have never read it but I'm here now and will speak freely because I know the mediators are watching and I would love to hear their real opinion of this mess.
Oops, wait a minute. If you are saying you had higher that supply voltage on the generator coil only it might be a different situation. It's possible to have a generated transformer voltage effect through the laminations as well as a small EMF from collapsing coils. You might need a scope the see this but the inevitable might be that that a load of any kind across the generator will show up as a proportional increase in current on the input. Of course you would have to factor in losses to have it all make sense right?


As a result of this I am focusing on the maximising torque against power input and I am steadily moving towards a better design and I am number crunching in a spreadsheet to see where the advantages are across a number of competing wind designs.
You got me on this one Mark, UFO is extremely knowledgeable in this area of expertise and I see people trying many things that he probably would put a flag on but that's what research is about. I always say good luck and someone will stumble on something that will defeat Lenz law effects or draw in energy from somewhere or find an electro biological relationship or some darn thing to change physics as we know it.[/COLOR]

Once I have settled on a favoured design I will focus on differing load types to see if the output is better harvested via batteries or super-caps. My initial thoughts are, to use the generator output in a 'regenerative' sense and thereby avoid the additional load on the motor battery resource. Like you, doing both at once appears to be very problematic at these initial stages of research.
Mark there's a lot of experiments on the net about battery charging using capacitors and dump circuits. The trick is to be able to charge the capacitors without it being a current drain on the generator circuit. I could spend a lot of time talking about that but my experience is mostly with pulse or brushless setups[/COLOR]

As an example. I have a motor which is generating 28% more torque at 110% more rpm for 90% more power consumption. Through road and bench testing I hope to determine if throttle control can achieve parity on the torque which in theory reduces the additional power consumption to 51% with an undetermined drop in rpm. Eventually coupled to generative harvesting of the output leads, this may be an increased radius of operation on the batteries. In Theory !!
Hey Mark, that's a mouth full. It sounds like everything you said is a positive step in the right direction even though I don't fully understand. The power consumption statement seems to need some qualification but I'll look forward to seeing how you test the theory. Can't think constructively anymore tonight. I just read posts on Raul's forum and wrote this after that. I also posted something here before reading on the other forum. It's a shame how things can be sometime.
Catch you some other time.
As usual my opinions only. corrections welcome.
John
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Old 05-12-2015, 11:25 PM
grounded grounded is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midaztouch View Post
I took the motor apart last week to rebuild it. The first build was just a test to prove it has torque and RPMs. I made the motor and made this thread at the same time... When I made the motor I was thinking about drag racing. Then I changed my mind to be more practical.

I orded new tires. When the tires arrive, I will take the bike over to the shop to have the sprockets and chain aligned and tires put on at the same time... But I still want to try for the 24v record some day.

I'm waiting for John to explain his turtle.
Then I will order wire.

Here is the OEM specs:
Permanent Magnet Motor - 56 Frame

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

Grounded, what's your back round with motors?
- i wouldnt bother going after any records. theres been huge competition from all areas of the world for that sorta thing, both gas and electric, and youll probably have to dedicate most of your life getting anywhere near the top. stick with the practical everyday. thats where its at in my opinion, and more usefull for the rest of the world

- when you re-wind your motor, pull the wires tighter than before, so you dont have any ping out like you did a couple weeks back. not too tight, so you damage the enamel, but tight enough to stay put, and it might even give you extra space for a few more turns too.

- which model numbers yours ?

Model Amps Encl HP Hz Outpt Shft Rotate RPM Volts Wt.

P56MD003 103 Open-GD 4.00 DC .750 ccw 2500 36 39
P56MD020 65 Open-GD 2.50 DC .750 Both 2000 36 39
P56SD004 42 Open-GD 1.60 DC .750 Both 1850 36 33
P56MD019 40 Open-GD 1.50 DC .750 Both 1150 36 41
P56SD112 78 Open-GD 2.00 DC .750 Both 2000 24 34
P56SD113 41 Open-GD 1.00 DC .750 Both 1070 24 35
P56SD123 54 Open-GD 1.30 DC .750 Both 1750 24 34
P56SD704 70 Open-GD 1.60 DC .750 Both 3000 24 30
P56SJ800 33 Open-GD 0.75 DC .625 Both 1000 24 21
P56SD095 78 TENV 1.00 DC .625 Both 1800 12 37
P56SD095 78 TENV 1.00 DC .625 Both 1800 12 37

- my background with motors is next to nothing.
ive done mechanical engineering for several years, but never messed with motors untill recently.
i started building a window motor, which is not yet finished, and recently i made a 5 pole assymetric as a trial, to test.

i have a vision of a car, that can pull its own weight, whilst powering itself.
im still very early into everything, and havent learnt nearly enough to take me that far, but im working on it.
money is holding me back quite a bit, as i cant afford the parts to continue my builds.

car-wise im not sure which motor will be best. what do you think ?
an induction motor might be better, with less drag. the oval shaped coils do suck alot of juice tho.
what are the similar type motors called, that have the same outer windings, but going round 360 degrees ?
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Old 05-13-2015, 11:52 AM
HuntingRoss HuntingRoss is offline
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Mark Ross

Lately, you have been working hard and quite vocal on correct angles. Give your educated opinion about my statement on the above image.

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz
I chose not to rush to an opinion on that diagram, hoping that Sam would confirm his actual brush width. Until Sam has confirmed that, any comment is speculation.

Happy Hunting

mark
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