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  #61  
Old 03-02-2015, 04:58 PM
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  #62  
Old 03-02-2015, 05:13 PM
Dfortune Dfortune is offline
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Tesla cone coils

Maybe this is the answer:Double Cone Bipolar Tesla Coil
would be fun to experiment with....
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  #63  
Old 03-02-2015, 05:18 PM
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Yeap, thanks, I don't build OTHERS VISIONS anymore. No point since I haven't any idea what the goal is for the project nor whats been built to date. I did try and share some observations but you blew past those as though they were nothing, so thats ok.

Take care!
Gene

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This is an open project , you can contribute , my success is your success and yours is mine, THANK YOU !
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  #64  
Old 03-02-2015, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dfortune View Post
Maybe this is the answer:Double Cone Bipolar Tesla Coil
would be fun to experiment with....
thanks, i saw this coil before but i don't have experience with it.
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  #65  
Old 03-02-2015, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by genessc View Post
Yeap, thanks, I don't build OTHERS VISIONS anymore. No point since I haven't any idea what the goal is for the project nor whats been built to date. I did try and share some observations but you blew past those as though they were nothing, so thats ok.

Take care!
Gene
ABSTRACT Displacement Current is the critical
“ingredient” in recent antenna designs such as the
CFA and EH. Its existence was postulated in the late
1800’s to explain how Alternating Current (AC) could
flow between the plates of a capacitor. In this article,
we analyze the charge-based model of the capacitor,
and attempt to prove that the model is seriously flawed,
and perhaps show that Displacement Current does not
exist.


more reading is here :

http://www.asps.it/miller00.pdf

maybe everyone on this forum know what is the self capacitance of solenoid coil, take a coil with 10 turns for example, the problem with this kind of capacitance is its disfiguration... meaning the turn number 1 will make a capacitor with turn n 2 the result capacitor will make another capacitor with turn number 3 at the same time n1 alone will make another capacitor with n3 alone !!! how many capacitors exist in this model ?





when using the E-TBC in Colpitts oscillator it show a high stability in 14.3 MHZ even thought the stray capacitor is the problem in high frequency region, the circuit i used was taken from the following website, the frequency used is about 7.8 MHZ, compare it with our graph showing a perfect sin wave in about two time that frequency.

makeRF: Experimenting with Colpitts Oscillators
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  #66  
Old 03-04-2015, 08:50 PM
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Moving the E-TBC in higher frequency around 20 MHZ


the E-TBC that gave a frequency around 20 MHZ ( maybe more than 20MHZ) was built using 14 cm length foils X 5 cm width wound on 3.5 cm PVC tube giving about 1.3 turn, i just verified the standing waves using a small neon bulb and it show the brightness point on the edge of L2 coil and the darkness in the middle, i built a coil using 5 meter wire just to see how much length needed to achieve a quarter wave electrical length.

i am wondering if a small neon bulb is the best to detect these standing waves ?





the following oscillation graph is the highest frequency measured using a digital scope ( Colpitts circuit ) .




maybe the next step is trying to recharge a battery using these waves.
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  #67  
Old 03-05-2015, 12:53 PM
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Improving the quality of oscillation :


in high voltage oscillation the E-TBC need a parallel capacitor to work with, it's the Yellow capacitor in Don device, i think this is why he used High voltage probe which are of course very expensive



in the following video he said it help for regulating L1 coil , so it's not for resonance !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4af39u1IyF4



in the same video he clarify that L1 is able to setup its resonance without problem which mean it's an E-TBC


what do you think ?
i am wondering about spark gap distance, what is the best gap distance for high voltage spark ?
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  #68  
Old 03-06-2015, 02:37 PM
lotec lotec is offline
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Hi Med
Been a while since we talked, Good to see you posting your progress. You have broken the frequency barrier with the culpitts oscillator.

When it comes to standing waves with some experiments Ive seen with helical resonators one end is hot and the other is not, is it with your E-TBC that the inside is hot the outside is not, but the neon can only access the voltage node from the edges?

I would have liked to have been more helpful but for now the best I can do is try to learn.

The last picture you posted with the two yellow caps, are those two long black things next to them diodes? If so, caps, diodes. and a type of sparkgap connected and that close together,, now Im confused.

I did download the video linked (thankyou ) so I will take a more panoramic view at that.

About spark gaps, how do they work. Does widening the gap lower the frequency, or does quenching the spark raise the frequency. I also cant help but be curious about the typical frequencies one might expect from a spark gap.

One last question, is it just me or is the resonator winding in some of Mr Smiths devices missing or covered over with an insulative layer so its not easily seen?

Thanks
Lotec
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Old 03-06-2015, 09:42 PM
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Hi Lotec ,

nice to see your post :-) , Don used some kind of helical antenna dipole where every part form a quarter waves electrical length , the two parts together form a half antenna dipole , one of them will take the back EMF so he could unify both the voltage and the current to be present at the same time , when the voltage is high on the edge the current is almost zero ( in center tap) but when the electromagnetic wave collapse the current is high but the voltage will driver an opposite component , this is why ( my point of view ) we have to use twin coil to combine voltage with current.

i am still not confident with the test i did using small neon light bulb because i got the lighter points when the E-TBC was inside a plastic PVC and L2 coil wound on it, when removing the plastic tube these points with high lighting gone ! meaning the plastic dielectric was a part from the phenomena, the electrical component of the electromagnetic waves prefer high dielectric material to penetrate in it .... from the edge i count 13 turns and i found these node point where the voltage is almost zero ! ( maybe i need advice from Antenna expert )

but when the plastic tube removed to form an ideal air coil these points gone but the power still exist meaning the small light neon bulb is less sensitive ) here i have to mention the equipment Don used ... for example high voltage probe , high voltage high frequency generator , sophisticated LC meter, oscilloscope ... and a lots more to work effectively in RADIO FREQUENCY environment

the yellow cap was intended for regulating the oscillation of L1 coil, the problem with spark gap is the dumping oscillation and its quality, to achieve this situation we have to satisfy the condition of under dumping oscillation where the square resistance of spark gap when firing have to be



in practice the resistance of spark gap have to be around 200 OHM ( my calculation ), this mean the distance of the gap have to be small in other hand a parallel capacitor ( yellow Don cap) will help to achieve a reasonable oscillation under these critical conditions, the position of spark gap can be before the yellow cap if direct resonance condition is achieved which lead me to think the inventor used a relatively high frequency module to driver his combination, in my case i use NE555 driver circuit which work around 12 KHZ , it's a low frequency and direct resonance is very very difficult to be achieved, maybe later i will use ZVS driver to achieve higher frequency.

the distance of spark gap will not affect the resonance frequency of the E-TBC but it can affect the condition of oscillation as discussed above.

about the E-TBC it's very easy to be hidden because it take the form of PVC tube , but notice this video

Конференция Смита - YouTube

where someone from the audience ask the inventor to take a measure from his device, Don noticed he want to take a resistive measurement .... so he said it will fry your multimeter.......

it was clear Don prevent taking measurement of his device ( he did it nicely )



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  #70  
Old 03-06-2015, 11:10 PM
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the position of spark gap can be

here i think i am confused too ! i think there is a hidden schematic in Don device, after all we don't have to replicate his device literally, it's better to go our own way, since the process of amplification and multiplication is known the last step is just tuning.
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  #71  
Old 03-07-2015, 12:28 PM
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Hi Med,
Thanks again for your patients and explanation. I was looking at the circuit on page 3-23 under the Don Smith device. Looking at it that way it made a lot more sense. (although I havnt worked with high voltage primary tanks, I still have that to look forward to.)

I think what confused me was. I might have been expecting a step down before the output. The coil as it looks seems like it might step it up a bit.

If I dont have any joy with the oscillator I am working on I will try a culpitts too. I got the data sheet for the npn you are using. One day I hope to stumble across an npn with a bit more power than a signal trans that can cope with those kinds of frequencies.

All the best
Lotec

edit I think I saw that one, thanks for the link. I think he would not mind if his meter blew up cause he had a whole bunch of them.
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  #72  
Old 03-07-2015, 04:43 PM
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STEAP - PolyPhase Transformer Reduction

Hello Med,

You might be on to something here. Take time to review the STEAP concept from Michael J. Nunnerly on the forum.

He uses a quadrifilar which he calls a "Polyphase transformer". Review this schematic. Basically a set of 20turn bucking inductors to create capacitance. I see similarities here with your E-TBC.



Here is the reduction of the poly phase transformer, at least the way I see it.



Your answer for extracting energy is from the power coil. There is energy multiplication happening here at the standing wave in resonance. C3 and L5 are in series LC while the polyphase transformer, acting like capacitance is in parallel LC. You have both series and parallel LC happening at the same time. There is parametric qualities to this schematic as well, just like you have found out. So you will see multiple resonance points happening at the same time.

The energy is between L5 and L6 at the power coil! You will have a null point in the middle of L5, but considerable amount of energy magnification on L6.
I believe voltage and current are working together in this arrangement to extract.

There has been reports of this schematic using two TBC to generate enough power to run a 110V bulb at full brightness and returning energy back to the source battery, running for free. I can't put my head around how to implement two Tesla bifilar pancake coils on this schematic yet, so I don't quite understand how this was accomplished. Needless to say this is OU, and can be validated if you really take the time to tune.

Hopefully you can see the similarities between your E-TBC and this arrangement as well as learning how to extract the energy. I'm learning more and more to learning how to combine series and parallel resonance together. You are correct voltage and current together is not what we want, but we need to pull energy only from the magnetic or the electrostatic side only and convert into real power, watts, with the source input seeing little combination of both forms of energies combined. As you have discovered, it's the voltage that does the work, or the magnetic that does the work, once you put these together, you working in normal hot electricity.

Hope this helps.
Jeremy
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  #73  
Old 03-07-2015, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lotec View Post
Hi Med,
Thanks again for your patients and explanation. I was looking at the circuit on page 3-23 under the Don Smith device. Looking at it that way it made a lot more sense. (although I havnt worked with high voltage primary tanks, I still have that to look forward to.)

I think what confused me was. I might have been expecting a step down before the output. The coil as it looks seems like it might step it up a bit.

If I dont have any joy with the oscillator I am working on I will try a culpitts too. I got the data sheet for the npn you are using. One day I hope to stumble across an npn with a bit more power than a signal trans that can cope with those kinds of frequencies.

All the best
Lotec

You are welcome, high voltage is expected from L2 coil but Lesser voltages can be obtained at intermediate points along the length of the L-2 coil, in this case L2 turns can't be reduced because back and forth waves need the exact L2 length.

if you want to work with Colpitts design in high power, it's better to use Power MOSFET, i think it's difficult to find a high power transistor with higher speed into 20 MHZ ranges.
i lots of work is waiting
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  #74  
Old 03-07-2015, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerdee View Post
Hello Med,

You might be on to something here. Take time to review the STEAP concept from Michael J. Nunnerly on the forum.

He uses a quadrifilar which he calls a "Polyphase transformer". Review this schematic. Basically a set of 20turn bucking inductors to create capacitance. I see similarities here with your E-TBC.



Here is the reduction of the poly phase transformer, at least the way I see it.



Your answer for extracting energy is from the power coil. There is energy multiplication happening here at the standing wave in resonance. C3 and L5 are in series LC while the polyphase transformer, acting like capacitance is in parallel LC. You have both series and parallel LC happening at the same time. There is parametric qualities to this schematic as well, just like you have found out. So you will see multiple resonance points happening at the same time.

The energy is between L5 and L6 at the power coil! You will have a null point in the middle of L5, but considerable amount of energy magnification on L6.
I believe voltage and current are working together in this arrangement to extract.

There has been reports of this schematic using two TBC to generate enough power to run a 110V bulb at full brightness and returning energy back to the source battery, running for free. I can't put my head around how to implement two Tesla bifilar pancake coils on this schematic yet, so I don't quite understand how this was accomplished. Needless to say this is OU, and can be validated if you really take the time to tune.

Hopefully you can see the similarities between your E-TBC and this arrangement as well as learning how to extract the energy. I'm learning more and more to learning how to combine series and parallel resonance together. You are correct voltage and current together is not what we want, but we need to pull energy only from the magnetic or the electrostatic side only and convert into real power, watts, with the source input seeing little combination of both forms of energies combined. As you have discovered, it's the voltage that does the work, or the magnetic that does the work, once you put these together, you working in normal hot electricity.

Hope this helps.
Jeremy
Hello Jeremy,

Thank you very much for you post, as you noticed it's important to separate voltage and current in power amplification stage, the E-TBC is an electromagnetism device with a special electromagnetic feedback inside, if you start with electric power you will end up with electric power amplified during the stage when the current grow! the same if you start with magnetic power you will end up with current amplified when the voltage grow, this explicate the energy equation of this device since the voltage do the job, ambient background supply current and the square of frequency is the speed of multiplication.










in my point of view the E-TBC is not series and parallel resonance , but it combine series and parallel to be series/parallel system both in the same fashion !

you comments and analysis are welcome including the schematics you post, it worth to be tested .
thanks once again.
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  #75  
Old 03-08-2015, 12:39 PM
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using short waves Radio !

Using short waves Radio to see the frequencies when the E-TBC oscillate isn't a bad idea , but short waves Radio show a variety of frequency starting from 1MHZ into 20 MHZ ranges...




harmonic waves exist which mean there is interference inside short waves Radio or maybe outside in the E-TBC ! what do you think ?
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Old 03-09-2015, 08:51 PM
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Hello Jeremy,

i really didn't catch your previous post ! until now i have some trouble exacting the power from the E-TBC , i got the standing waves from L2 coil using neon light bulb when i changed the parallel capacitor with the E-TBC from 70 NF into smaller value 10 NF ( they are rated for 15 KV ), adjusting the gap distance with less than 2mm gave the bright neon bulb i was looking for.


trying to charge 720 UF /450 volts capacitor with no success...

one critical condition we have to achieve is the third oscillation in the following photo .



we have to have LC oscillation with amplification.... just a though !
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  #77  
Old 03-10-2015, 04:57 PM
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Hi Med

Quote:
Originally Posted by med.3012 View Post
if you want to work with Colpitts design in high power, it's better to use Power MOSFET, i think it's difficult to find a high power transistor with higher speed into 20 MHZ ranges.
I agree.

Interesting idea for the radio,

Im liking the culpitts idea more and more perhaps the inductor for the oscilator can be wound on one of these,
SBK-71K | rf-microwave.com

Regards lotec
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Old 03-10-2015, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lotec View Post
Hi Med



I agree.

Interesting idea for the radio,

Im liking the culpitts idea more and more perhaps the inductor for the oscilator can be wound on one of these,
SBK-71K | rf-microwave.com

Regards lotec

Hi Lotec ,

you can use directly the E-TBC as oscillation tank circuit , for sure you can try the variable inductor you mentioned.




if the circuit worked with you tell us especially if you are able to measure the inductance and capacitance of the E-TBC it's important to know if double frequency happen with you too.

Thanks .
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Old 03-11-2015, 09:48 PM
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Very interesting med. Did you try it yourself in circuit?
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Old 03-11-2015, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
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Very interesting med. Did you try it yourself in circuit?
HI,

Thanks for your post , i did some experiment show that the E-TBC is energy amplifying device, but i am facing problems extracting the energy from this device the reason is the lack of experience in radio frequency and radiant energy fields both of them are needed, but i think radio frequency is the most important here.

this device unlike ordinary parallel LC show double frequency behavior ( i hope to receive more statement about that ).

i am working on improving standing waves detection on this device , maybe changing the geometry of the E-TBC will help ( this involve another reverse engineering test ),

honestly i am not able to know what is the problem....the capacitor banks i am using ( now i use 1600 UF / 400 v capacitors ) give a great amperage but it need more than 3 minutes to be charged....., another problem it's cold electricity, the mystery in cold electricity is you can't charge serial capacitors with it !!

meaning i can't increase the voltage i am working with ... i have to have higher voltage capacitors and they are rare !!

Regards
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Old 03-12-2015, 08:44 PM
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The problems expected using indirect resonance method

The problems expected using indirect resonance method:

one of the biggest problem in extracting the power from the E-TBC is the harmonic oscillations generated due to the fact the E-TBC is a special parallel LC oscillator where the capacitor inside the device is a special capacitor where it's formed in electrons spin mechanism behavior , x point is the location where electron spin take action, here it's the lowest energy point and it's related to spark gap resistance, when the gap resistance increase the capacitor increase.... ( i am confused here ) and this result in changing the oscillation frequencies giving a large bandwidth frequencies , short waves Radio show a large frequency covered when the E-TBC oscillate.

the solution is to move into direct resonance method where we have to match the frequency of HV module with our resonating system .... it's important to add another capacitor to regulate the oscillation of the E-TBC .
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Old 03-13-2015, 08:18 PM
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Discussion the problem:

the following photo show the experiment i did, to increase the sensibility of neon light bulb it's better to use the earth grounding instead of using our hands,
to the right the neon has a medium shining , in the center tap position the neon has a little shining ,this mean the positions of node ( 0V) and anti-node ( V ) are still not positioned correctly, the interference between the main resonance frequency and harmonic frequencies absorb most of pick resonance power, the presence of relative standing waves positions is possible only when decreasing the gap distance of spark-gap, changing the parallel capacitor from 70NF into 10NF help too because of speeding the spark speed ( this help in how much speed the neon bulb is brightening ).

the important phenomena is the relation between neon bulb brightening and decreasing the spark gap distance, the position of these relative standing waves ( they are relative because we have to have a pure node position where the voltage is zero in the center tap, if this condition is achieved charging the capacitor banks will be easy because we have a reference voltage now = 0V )






The E-TBC need a regulation, this device need a silent spark gap... we have to provide a minimum spark-gap resistance , so the combination C + E-TBC must have the maximum impedance toward HV module oscillation frequency, ( practically the best possible.... the E-TBC is able to change its internal geometry when oscillate from parallel LC into serial LC providing a maximum current....).

the next photo show the current situation and the desired situation which can be obtained with adequate HV module capable of oscillating around 150 KHZ.

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Old 04-03-2015, 02:16 PM
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Hi Guys. I found it interesting to mes with it a bit. I have made a new Coil-Capacitor today. Tomorrow I'll put some coil over.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvfdkUdGoJY

John
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Old 04-03-2015, 03:12 PM
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Very nice video :-) , but extracting the power from this device need tuning!
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Old 04-03-2015, 03:29 PM
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i don't like to disturb your work , but other suggestion will be provided very soon, for example the relation between the length and the width of the E-TBC has an optimum value ... soon i will use 1/5 as Don Smith said, for example reduce the width to 1cm will give around 4 or 5 turn ( the frequency will be high around 20MHZ ) this in fact will increase the magnetic energy because L will take a high value.

using ZVS driver will increase the driver power to benifit from silent spark-gap... more silent sparking mean a narrow harmonic bandwidth.

GOOD LUCK
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Old 04-03-2015, 04:03 PM
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Ok, my device broadband around 40 KHz. The coil L2- I will make it 1/4 length of that frequency. The only problem I see is the spark is not very stable on its intensity. I think some improvement needs to be done. Maybe discharge tube might be better? Also, do not forget that the respond of the device might be not linear with the voltage IN. You might find right voltage for best output. My flyback is drived by ZVS, I can't imagine how to make scilent spark. They so intens and load. Even if the gap is very small. BTW- the sound is the energy too. Excite the electrons in the wire and let the sound to kick them.

This device reminds me "harisingh's" E-stress power generator (Amplifier), the device I made an year ago. It didn't work for me that time.

e-Stress Power Generating System

John
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Old 04-03-2015, 05:37 PM
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just quick response, the wave length for 40 khz will be 7500 m ! the quarter length will be 7500/4 = 1875 m still big length!

using 20 mhz will be a good choice and a silent spark gap can be obtained easily using ZVS driver because the capacitor of the E-TBC will be small around 200 pf .

the noisy spark gap mean the power is lost ... silent mean you have a pick resoance that work for you and the power is concentrated
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Old 04-03-2015, 05:46 PM
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Whats the target length for 20mhz then?

I'd note using such a small capacity will make the current leader length be very very small... on my 50kvdc output ion chair my end capacity is 800pF and that produces a nice snappy arc. Frequency changes with size of spark gap distance, increasing in frequency as the gap closes and reducing in frequency as the gap opens.

As regards the arc being noisy or quiet, thats usually dependent on the capacity setup at the spark gap. (also the tighter/smaller the gap the less noise is heard, regardless how much "currents" being pumped into it, what changes is the Discharge peak voltage being reached before it fires again across the arc. Thus for example using the context of my ion chair, if the gap is set to about a half an inch or less, the discharges are noted to be Measured at about 2-5kvdc consistently and the arc is apparently constant to the eye... but moving that gap to about 3 inches forces the charge in the 800pf to reach at least 30kvdc before it arcs over... and as my measuring device is only good for 0-30kvdc, the meters off the far right and comes back "down" to 30kvdc for the discharge event, and then goes back offscale till it fires again... )

I would lastly note you can localize a much better discharge in a spark gap by adding some capacity from 50-500pF'ish right on either side of the gap, as this will act to provide additional current in the arc discharge localized at the gap. (just try adding a capacity on the gap versus no capacity on the gap and it should be relatively apparent the effect of increased discharge in the gap... its like its providing the missing Current aspect at the place where its needed... which is what lets that arc usually "inflate" to be sort of a bubble between the spark gap electrodes. I saw the same thing manually inflating arcs with my trigatron several years back... arc would get established with a cars autocoil bridging the bigger part of the gap, and once established the large uF cap could then bridge the shorter part of the gap and conduct over the established path. The effect of that was this piddly violet spark plug type arc being inflated to a spheroid bubble of blue-white light... )

Just some things I've observed that might be of use to you guys. If not, no worries.

Cheers,
Gene

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Originally Posted by med.3012 View Post
just quick response, the wave length for 40 khz will be 7500 m ! the quarter length will be 7500/4 = 1875 m still big length!

using 20 mhz will be a good choice and a silent spark gap can be obtained easily using ZVS driver because the capacitor of the E-TBC will be small around 200 pf .

the noisy spark gap mean the power is lost ... silent mean you have a pick resoance that work for you and the power is concentrated
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Old 04-03-2015, 05:59 PM
John.K1 John.K1 is offline
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So you want to say I didn't need to make that big coil today? I have on my desk 4-5 turns , 5-6 cm height E-TBC from my previous experiment I didn't check what was the broadband frequency on that one. But it looks to me quite small to put any coil on it (2* 1/4).

Actually I have one more question- I have made a kacher by using one transistor and two coils (one going to collector and the other is feedback to base) On the collector I can see ns HV peaks. With the ground used ,it charge my caps very quickly to around 200V. The point is ,there is almost no current consumption -my poversupply shows 0.00A and the cap charged to 200V in around 1.5s. Just wondering if I will make the kacher peaks much higher, with the amp-less consumption ,that would be great. The E-TBC will give it the amps and happy days

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Old 04-04-2015, 02:22 AM
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BroMikey BroMikey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by med.3012 View Post
Very nice video :-) , but extracting the power from this device need tuning!





Nice posting Med and the others who enjoy your work. There are those of us who believe it works as well as many other devices that work off these principles.

It is easy to weed out the ones who are here to throw water on your fire. Not me, I know it works and I want to jump in and encourage you guys.

Don said tuning yes "For resonant magnetic flux" something that the amp burning kronies won't perceive. The indoctrinated university grad's who think only the way they were programmed.

This is why we have no practical OU to date.

But you guys might just break the mold.

Mikey
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