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  #181  
Old 11-05-2014, 01:35 PM
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altrez altrez is offline
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Radio shack sells some small ones. $4-$5. They have one that takes 3.5 volt to 24 volt.

OR EBAY

3X Small DC Motors Work Great as Generator | eBay

3 motors for 10 dollars. They should only pull 2 amps or so. Little high for the batts you got but not bad.

Matt
Thank you Matt! I just purchased the motors off eBay they will be here on Monday. I also saw your other post about the test leads and tonight I will start making some better leads.



-Altrez
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  #182  
Old 11-05-2014, 02:03 PM
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I did some more testing last night on the battery system. I tried letting the batteries rest about 5 minutes a few times before rotating them. Seemed to have helped a bit.

The one thing I have noticed is that if I start the charging system with a very light load and then adjust it once battery 3 is charging it makes a difference almost like you are giving the batteries time to warm up a bit before adding a higher load.

I have not been able to get back to my starting voltage on the series setup between 1 and 2 as of yet. Here is the voltage test from last night.



I started off with the motor hooked up to the PWM and setup in generator mode with a 20watt lamp as the load. I measured the temp of the lamp the whole time I was running the experiment.



As you can see I was never able to get the temp backup to what it was when I started with batteries 1 and 2 fully charged.

At the end of my testing I had the lamp connected to the PWM. The light output varies as well as the amp draw.




I plan on more testing later tonight using just the lamp connected to the PWM adjusting the load to get the best charging rate for battery 3 I want to see if I can get past the starting voltage of battery 1 and 2 by the end of the test.



-Altrez
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  #183  
Old 11-06-2014, 07:24 PM
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Hello All,

After much testing I have made a modification to my Tesla Switch setup. I now move the batteries in an alternating pattern always replacing the battery with the lowest charge after a run and never letting the voltage drop to a dangerous level on the batteries.

Using that method last night I got to within .6 volts of being back at my starting voltage two times in a roll. It seems to work a lot better. I was also able to bring the temperature almost up to the same level each time.

More testing tonight!



-Altrez
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  #184  
Old 11-06-2014, 08:28 PM
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altrez,

It has been my experience that If you label the two batteries in series 1 and 2, and the load is between 2 and 3, then the battery in position 2 is ALWAYS going to have the lowest charge at the end of a run, and battery 3 the highest.

So 2 moves to the 3rd position to be charged, 1 goes to the 2 position, and 3 goes to 1.

Is that what you are seeing, or are you moving 3 to the 2 position and 2 to the 3 position and leaving 1 alone??

Dave
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  #185  
Old 11-06-2014, 08:35 PM
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altrez,

It has been my experience that If you label the two batteries in series 1 and 2, and the load is between 2 and 3, then the battery in position 2 is ALWAYS going to have the lowest charge at the end of a run, and battery 3 the highest.

So 2 moves to the 3rd position to be charged, 1 goes to the 2 position, and 3 goes to 1.

Is that what you are seeing, or are you moving 3 to the 2 position and 2 to the 3 position and leaving 1 alone??

Dave
Hello,

#2 does in fact drain really fast the first few times. However what I am seeing is that after a few cycles it changes almost like a pole flip. at that point battery 1 takes more of a drain then battery 2. Not sure why that is yet but thats what I have been seeing later in the testing.

I think it might be because I am varying the load at different times. I am going to buy some more data logging tools so i can post the results.

Basicly what I am doing is leaving the battery alone with the highest charge for as many cycles as it keeps that charge.



-Altrez
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  #186  
Old 11-09-2014, 10:47 AM
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hi turion. in post 186 you mention the prospect of turning magnets on and off.have you checked out electropermanentmagnets.some models flip on-off states with a pulse.not sure if they are happy to do this 50 times a second all day but thought the premise might be worth investigating.
also in post 197 you list desirable attributes for an energizer. inside the automotive thermofan in pic2,the rotor is a flat disk with coils arranged in overlapping loops embedded in what looks like abs plastic or fibreglass.i was curious to pull it apart because i coudn't feel detents or cogging when turning the shaft.there is a big ring shaped mutipole PM stuck to the back of the housing along with 2 brushes.from memory these things draw around 4 to 6 amps at 12-13.8 volts,with the fan blade attatched.i know they can generate because i had an aftermarket set on an old car and if i switched the engine off while the fans were running the engine kept running for a few seconds.hope these 2 items are of some help.cheers
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File Type: jpg thermofan.jpg (17.0 KB, 29 views)
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Last edited by voltan; 11-10-2014 at 07:35 PM.
  #187  
Old 11-09-2014, 11:10 AM
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Still lots of testing going on over here in my make shift lab. I have noticed at the end of my runs that I have lost almost the exact amount of energy used to run the load.

For example I ran a 12 volt lamp setting the voltage around 2.0. At the end of the run my starting voltage had dropped from 26.2 to 24.6. With the meter on the lamp showing 1.58

I still have not got past my starting voltage. And with each run the starting voltage drops a little and the batteries discharge a bit quicker. Also I find it hard to reach even 13 volts for battery 3 on the third cycle as the main batteries are so weak.

Tests for this Afternoon:

1. Controlled load on 3 battery's in parallel timed and logged.
2. Controlled load on Tesla Switch timed and logged



-Altrez
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  #188  
Old 11-09-2014, 04:55 PM
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Your load is knocking the potential down to much.. Put your meter on the grounds of the setup and before and after your load and you will be able to see the difference. Scope works too if you got one.

Try to find the loss, then you can find a way to beat it. You'll always loose some in the load the point is how long can you keep going before you have to supplement. And how big is the supplement compared to work output.

Matt
Hi Matt,

So on the negative on battery 3 to the negative on battery 1 and 2? I don't understand after the load, would that just be battery 3?

Thanks!!

-Altrez
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  #189  
Old 11-10-2014, 12:10 AM
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So many more questions the more I experiment with the Tesla Switch. Today I decided to try a new load. A Radiant charger connected to two 6 volt batteries in series. It seems to work well. I charged 2 6 volt batteries during my first two runs and now I am enjoying the light from the inverter they are producing.

Not sure if anything really has changed from the 12volt 20 watt lamp tho. Yes I can charge a battery using the load and also charge battery 3 at the same time. Not sure where the benifit is right now.



-Altrez
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  #190  
Old 11-10-2014, 01:58 AM
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From what I am seeing now if you get the load tuned in it draws very little from battery 1 and 2 and charges battery 3 or the battery in the third position as well as the battery attached to the load.

This can only be one of three things. 1. I have had tooo much Gray Goose. 2. My meters are all wrong. 3. Its working!



-Altrez
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  #191  
Old 11-10-2014, 02:37 AM
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vodka fueled research and development.nice work.
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  #192  
Old 11-10-2014, 03:02 AM
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@altrez,
You will see some unconventional things if you attach a dc pulsed load on the 3rd battery. Such as your pulse motor, or a dc brushed motor, or a controlled pulsed load. It does work.
Randy
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  #193  
Old 11-10-2014, 03:39 AM
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vodka fueled research and development.nice work.
Thank you

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  #194  
Old 11-10-2014, 03:41 AM
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@altrez,
You will see some unconventional things if you attach a dc pulsed load on the 3rd battery. Such as your pulse motor, or a dc brushed motor, or a controlled pulsed load. It does work.
Randy
I will try that tomorrow after work. I have some new motors coming in the morning. Thanks for the tips!



-Altrez
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  #195  
Old 11-10-2014, 04:12 AM
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When you get the knack of balancing the load with the load on battery 3, you will discover that you can double the load, balance it, and you will have NO MORE energy drain on the primaries than you did with the smaller load....and then double that and do the same thing.

You will drain the primaries until you have that balance, and then they will stabilize and go down very little. But DON'T forget what Matt said. You can have a load that is too big for your small batteries, and then nothing works right.

Dave
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  #196  
Old 11-10-2014, 02:47 PM
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Turion,

I think this is finally making sense to me, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

Attaching the motor load between the 24 volt batteries (#1 + #2 in series) and 12 volt battery #3 there is a potential difference of 12 volts +/- for the motor. The current exiting the 12V motor is deposited into the 12 volt battery #3 instead of being wasted to ground, and this means the only loss incurred is in the resistance and inductance of the motor along with any minor circuit losses.

The coils in the brushed DC motor are basically just inductors, so subject to their L/R time constant. By pulsing the motor at the proper intervals the motor coils can pass on their current more efficiently to the charging battery #3. In the interval between pulses the motor becomes a generator to battery 3 and can replace, if not exceed, the resistance and inductance losses of the motor as long as the load on the motor is not excessive. By rotating the battery positions the charge is maintained in all 3 batteries.

Additionally, the load on the motor could be a small generator and thus we get COP >1 along with a self running generator.

Is this the correct idea of the device?

Regards
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Last edited by Cadman; 11-10-2014 at 02:54 PM.
  #197  
Old 11-10-2014, 03:14 PM
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When you get the knack of balancing the load with the load on battery 3, you will discover that you can double the load, balance it, and you will have NO MORE energy drain on the primaries than you did with the smaller load....and then double that and do the same thing.

You will drain the primaries until you have that balance, and then they will stabilize and go down very little. But DON'T forget what Matt said. You can have a load that is too big for your small batteries, and then nothing works right.

Dave
Playing around with the loads is very knacky on the connection between 1-2 and 3. I can adjust it with the PWM and get it to appear that it is not drawing anything from 1 and 2. However when I do that charging is extremely slow on battery 3.

I have not put a load on battery 3 yet I will do that this evening.

Thanks for the help!



-Altrez
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  #198  
Old 11-10-2014, 04:43 PM
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Cadman,

You got it. At the basic level.

The bigger the motor, the more it will act as a generator. Larger batteries and MORE OF THEM don't react as quickly to the loss and tend to hold their charge better. Add a lenz free or low drag generator (Mine speeds up under resistive loads) and now you really have something.

You can do this with an off the shelf motor, but a motor BUILT as a pulse motor works better because you have a longer off (generator) cycle. You need higher voltage though, to get enough torque to run your generator, so once again MORE and BIGGER batteries are necessary. I have run Matt's pulse motor design on 72 volts, and I believe Matt has run it on more than that, but don't quote me.

Add a flywheel to keep the torque going between pulses, and now you have what we are looking for.

But like I said...more research needs to be done.

What is the BEST motor to use for this?
What is the BEST core material for the coils?
What size wire, length of wire, number of strands, bifilar, trifler, litzed, etc. gives the best generator output, and what is best size and shape of magnet?

What I was hoping for here was that a bunch of folks would take a simple razor scooter motor (why, because we KNOW that one can be rewound as a pulse motor once you see that it works with an unmodified one) a flywheel and some batteries, and start experimenting with this thing.

It is NOT the 3BGS, because we NEED to rotate the batteries to keep the charge up, but any losses, (and if you have any, they should be small) can be topped off by the generator.

What we need are some GOOD experimenters who can look at this and help to design the circuits to rotate the batteries, collect the output from the generator, dump to the battery that needs the charge. Ideally, you would have one set of batteries running the setup, one set resting, and one set being charged back to full by the generator.

This is NOT rocket science. It is very simple. Just build it and you will see. You don't need videos of mine running or Matt's running...you need to put one on your bench and see the results for yourself. Don't take ANYBODY's word that it works.

Maybe an off the shelf motor connected to an off the shelf generator IS the BEST way to go. Simply pulse it, and a flywheel, and run it in the 3 Battery configuration.

And Matt is right, I keep flipping back and forth in my head between the 3BGS and this setup. With this setup, you do NOT want a load on battery 3. Sorry about that.

Dave
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Last edited by Turion; 11-10-2014 at 07:48 PM.
  #199  
Old 11-11-2014, 04:16 PM
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Hello Everyone,

I went ultra simple with my build last night after I fried my data logger and SS Bedini charger "To much Vodka and hooked it up backwards".So what I did next was hook up a six volt battery directly to the PWM and adjusted it at the lowest setting I could to charge the 6 volt battery.

The starting voltage was 25.1 one the Switch and under 6 on the 6v battery. I charged the small battery up to 6.30 volts and then swapped it with a second 6 volt battery that I charged to 6.30 volts. The six volt batteries are new but I discharge them a few times over the last few days, they were flat when I started my tests.

After 3 hours and two runs I let the system rest for 45 minutes to allow the batteries to even out. My starting voltage was down to 24.3 volts. At this point I hooked up the 6 volt batteries in series to get 12.30 volts. Hooked up my inverter and plugged in a speed charger on 1 amp to charge battery one. I let it charge for 15 minutes and then after 30 minutes of rest I hooked battery 1 and 2 back up in series. Success!!! I was at 25.2 volts!

I still had enough power to run a 35 watt CFL for around 5 minutes afterwards. Thinking about this this morning all I can go on is facts.

1. I started with 25.1 volts ended with 25.2 after a 3 hour run time.
2. I charged two 6 volt batteries in the load position 1 at a time.
3. Using the the 6 volt batteries in series I had a net gain of energy.

In my mind this clearly shows a COP > 1. I am going to replicate the experiment tonight to make sure I wasn't having Gray Goose induced hallucinations Oh and Battery 3 was charged as well at the end.







-Altrez
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Last edited by altrez; 11-11-2014 at 04:18 PM.
  #200  
Old 11-11-2014, 05:09 PM
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altrez is seeing what can be done with small motors and small batteries and a reasonable load.

Now think about using a larger motor that is wound as a pulse motor and 50% OF THE TIME IT IS ACTING AS A GENERATOR, connected in the same way turning a flywheel to keep the revolutions more consistent during pulses, and running a lenz free generator like this one:
Topic: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )

If you just BREAK EVEN because 1. You're switching the batteries around and 2. The motor runs as a generator 50% of the time, that means ALL THE POWER produced by your Lenz Free generator is FREE power. All of it. Every drop.

Dave
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  #201  
Old 11-11-2014, 07:01 PM
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I went home at lunch and ran a few more tests. I was able to run the inverter again for 5 minutes charging battery 1 even more! I also think the issue with my voltage logger was the battery, it seems to be working now.

So tonight I will run the same test and see if I get the same results. If so then well I don't really know lol. Its a very basic version of the Tesla Switch. here is the off the shelf parts list I am using.

1. Three 14volt 5.8ah batteries
2. Two 6v 4.5ah batteries
3. A 75watt inverter
4. A 12 volt charger
5. Some hookup wire
6. A PWM

I just keep thinking I am missing something as there is no way its this simple.



-Altrez
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Last edited by altrez; 11-11-2014 at 08:52 PM.
  #202  
Old 11-11-2014, 08:30 PM
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hi all.has anyone seen john bedini's short vid of the zero force motor.it's pretty new so not much info on it yet.it has a torroidal stator and neos in the rotor,reed switches controlling bedini cole semiconductor switching and revs hard.he mentions it was built by peter,dr lindemann i presume.it looks fairly easy to build once we understand the winding scheme and the timing.cheers
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Last edited by voltan; 11-11-2014 at 08:44 PM.
  #203  
Old 11-11-2014, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by voltan View Post
hi all.has anyone seen john bedini's short vid of the zero force motor.it's pretty new so not much info on it yet.it has a torroidal stator and neos in the rotor,reed switches controlling bedini cole semiconductor switching and revs hard.he mentions it was built by peter,dr lindemann i presume.it looks fairly easy to build once we understand the winding scheme and the timing.cheers
Hi Voltan,

There is another short video by John B. on the zero force motor, you can see it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kpDMMcNQxc where scope shots are also shown.
And there is a thread on it, started by an inquiring member at energyscienceforum.com but neither Peter L. nor John B commented it:
For Peter Lindemann and energenx "Zero Force Motor" where member Daniel and me tried to discuss the principle, Daniel started to do some tests and later he turned to the Paul Babcock motor, and I do not know more about his further tests if any. IT would be good to see John or Peter comments on the setup you refer to.

Gyula
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  #204  
Old 11-12-2014, 01:24 AM
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When we have schematics for this motor, we can build it. Until then, use something that you already have. An off the shelf motor will work to get you started. You can pulse it by putting a small rotor on the shaft with some magnets on it and use a reed switch.

Get it working first, and THEN worry about what is the best motor and what is the best generator.

Dave
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  #205  
Old 11-12-2014, 04:47 AM
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got it again!



Same batteries

-Altrez
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  #206  
Old 11-12-2014, 11:33 PM
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What do you guys make of this scope shot from my Tesla switch?






-Altrez
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  #207  
Old 11-13-2014, 01:07 AM
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Whats the setup from the shot?

Matt
Negative of Battery 3. Positive of PWM out to 6 volt battery.

-Altrez
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  #208  
Old 11-13-2014, 01:37 AM
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Identical trace on both channels

Without knowing what you are displaying it is not going to be meaningful to say what it is. Anyone's guess could be different. Putting the same signal into to two channels on the scope and adjusting the Y-offset could produce this.
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  #209  
Old 11-13-2014, 02:04 AM
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Without knowing what you are displaying it is not going to be meaningful to say what it is. Anyone's guess could be different. Putting the same signal into to two channels on the scope and adjusting the Y-offset could produce this.
Hello,

I have it hooked to the negative of battery 3 and the positive from the PWM.

-Altrez
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  #210  
Old 11-14-2014, 08:14 PM
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hi all.just a thought.i used to get modified computer fans to run well with all 4 coils being driven,by putting a mini isolation transformer across the coils,thereby synchronously switching a transistor.the iso trafo is listed as 3k/3k ct. i would assume medium to high reactance in this component helps to maximize spike energy recovery and overall motor efficiency.
during initial setup there was always a bit of fiddling, trying different connections,sometimes swapping them.to help identify the right setup i added a bright white led in series with some resistance,depending on input voltage, wired in parallel to the driven coils for a timing light.aiming this at a dot or line on the fan hub i could see when the power was on while the fan was running. i could then adjust the timing a bit with a diode here and a cap there to the stage where the timing was pretty close to using 2 coils for sensing only.
i was thinking this might be easier than optical triggering and more reliable than reed switches,if it can be made to work with different types of home built motors,ie. short pulses as different from being on for about 90 degrees of rotation.
c1 absorbs the spikes,for t1's protection,in the absence of a spike recovery scheme.d1 and c2 tailor the trafo signal to make for half decent timing.with a bit of trial and error it could be the basis for a good timing system for different applications.
incidentally that zero force motor looks to me like a computer fan motor,but inside out.i'm guessing it too has the 4 poles in the rotor arranged n-s-n-s,but with 2 coils instead of 4 in the stator,which probably flip polarity every 90 degrees and basically stay on.after watching the other vid gyula added, its apparent the stator coils and their magnetic fields are at right angles to normal,thereby achieving near lenzless operation by the sound of it.much to learn about.
repulsion type pulse motors send the pulse at the point of zero crossing(when the stator and rotor poles are in alignment).
i can move the switch on point around that area on the fan so hopefully this is helpful.cheers
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File Type: jpg computer fan circuit.JPG (18.7 KB, 45 views)
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Last edited by voltan; 11-20-2014 at 12:37 AM. Reason: details
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