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  #1381  
Old 09-18-2016, 10:56 PM
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Hi all, here is the circuit i'm using and pic of coil and setup.
peace love light



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  #1382  
Old 09-20-2016, 12:52 AM
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Just finished winding three coil setup so it can be tested further. All three coils are bifilar, AWG 21 and matched. Approx. 2.2Ω each strand (1.1Ω paralleled).
Not everything is hooked up yet as I need to sit down and figure out the best way of running this.
I' m using square pulse at 10% dc and 500V/20A Mosfets for switching. I can adjust both, dc and frequency but running at 100Hz a.t.m while watching charging rate with two different cores.
I'm not running in 3 Batt configuration yet, just 12VDC.

V
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  #1383  
Old 09-20-2016, 01:11 AM
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Pulsing those two coils directly from a 12 volt battery is FAR different than pulsing them using the potential difference BETWEEN primaries and the charge battery. You can measure the output of the secondary, but there is no way to assess input vs output with the system you have chosen to use. Not accurately anyway, since you are using up power.
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  #1384  
Old 09-20-2016, 01:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
Pulsing those two coils directly from a 12 volt battery is FAR different than pulsing them using the potential difference BETWEEN primaries and the charge battery. You can measure the output of the secondary, but there is no way to assess input vs output with the system you have chosen to use. Not accurately anyway, since you are using up power.
Yes, of course. I was just curious about something and wanted to compare two cores I have available in order to pick better one. I'm not done yet.

Thanks Dave

V
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  #1385  
Old 09-20-2016, 02:28 AM
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Hi all, been testing the 3 coil setup as shown in previous circuit drawing.
It works well, i then decided to hook the output from secondary dc bridge, solely to the 3rd charge battery and also tried with a led bulb in series with the dc output from secondary bridge.
This 3 coil setup does indeed behave different from the multi-filar coil.
When testing the multi-filar coil, if i used 2 of the coils in series as a secondary to do the same thing, nothing could be pulled from the primary field collapse and vice versa.
However, with this 3 coil design, i am now powering led bulbs in series with primary oscillator coil using flyback diode, into the 3rd charge battery and at the same time, i can power led bulbs in series off the dc output of the secondary coils bridge rectifier, then again into the 3rd charge battery.
This 3 coil design does seem superior to multi-filar and anything else i have tried, for these purposes.
peace love light

edit: i'll post an updated circuit drawing tonight
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Last edited by SkyWatcher; 09-20-2016 at 02:32 AM.
  #1386  
Old 09-20-2016, 02:47 AM
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Hi all, here is the modified circuit drawing.
peace love light

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  #1387  
Old 09-20-2016, 04:29 AM
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Data

Since I have been out of town for several days, I have been in touch with Bob French every day and as usual, we talk this stuff to death, discussing what changes to make to the setup and how that will affect the output. As both of us are retired, that's an awful lot of talking. Bob has been making changes to his three coil setup, and I am sure he will be posting results here soon. I would agree that bifilar or trifilar coils are NOT the way to go. We have seen poor results. Bob has been using iron cores and I expect ferrite will produce better results, but won't know until I can test it. The results have been pretty darn good. But I will let Bob tell you about that. There is a lot of research that needs to be done here on how to get the best production out of this system, but once we have done that, it's just a matter of scaling up.

I'll be home by Thursday night, and have all kinds of things I have ordered waiting for me. One more chance to win more $$ in Laughlin on the way home! I did pretty well on the way here. Too bad I spent most of it on my kids and grandkids. Oh well, easy come, easy go. LOL.
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Last edited by Turion; 09-20-2016 at 04:31 AM.
  #1388  
Old 09-20-2016, 04:50 AM
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Hi turion, thanks for sharing and i look forward to what you or bob has to share.
So are you saying the self oscillator, bifilar method is not ideal and we should use single coil primaries and pulse the coils/transistors with external drive.
peace love light
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  #1389  
Old 09-20-2016, 05:59 AM
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I hooked my test setup between positives of 3Batt system. It is almost 3am and I'm too tired to let it run right now. BTW, I have all three bifilar coils as I wasn't sure how I'm going to pulse them but I'm not using their second windings.
I tried ferrite as well as iron core and I'm getting better charging/less draw with iron (welding rods).
I have small 5W bulb as a load connected after the FWBR/cap from secondary.
I had to increase dc up to 20% to get something back to the 24V bank. I wasn't getting much at 10%.
I need to look at everything with fresh eyes. Too late right now and I can't even tell if what I did makes sense or not.

V
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  #1390  
Old 09-20-2016, 07:22 AM
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Setup

The setup Bob and I have been discussing and working to improve is two single wire primary coils (connected in series) on either side of a single wire secondary coil. All three wound on the same iron core. Bob has been decreasing the number of winds on the primary and increasing the size of the wire. Still experimenting with that but I'm sure Bob will share what he has seen so far.

Dave
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  #1391  
Old 09-20-2016, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackchisel97 View Post
I hooked my test setup between positives of 3Batt system. It is almost 3am and I'm too tired to let it run right now. BTW, I have all three bifilar coils as I wasn't sure how I'm going to pulse them but I'm not using their second windings.
I tried ferrite as well as iron core and I'm getting better charging/less draw with iron (welding rods).
I have small 5W bulb as a load connected after the FWBR/cap from secondary.
I had to increase dc up to 20% to get something back to the 24V bank. I wasn't getting much at 10%.
I need to look at everything with fresh eyes. Too late right now and I can't even tell if what I did makes sense or not.

V
Hi V

I have found that the differences in ferrite will determine whether it does better than the welding rods. Some ferrite I have is worse than welding rods and some I have is much better than welding rods. Unfortunately I don't have the specs on any of the ferrite so I don't know what makes the difference but I suspect the higher permeability types are better.

Carroll
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  #1392  
Old 09-20-2016, 01:52 PM
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This is a simplified schematic of how I'm running it. This way I don't have to use bifilars. I switch on the neg. side and the collapse of the primaries goes directly to batt 3. Nothing compared to your great schematics (I just don't find the time to do that..) but it gives an idea.

I'm using paralleled mosfets instead of the transistor.

Mario
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  #1393  
Old 09-20-2016, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citfta View Post
Hi V

I have found that the differences in ferrite will determine whether it does better than the welding rods. Some ferrite I have is worse than welding rods and some I have is much better than welding rods. Unfortunately I don't have the specs on any of the ferrite so I don't know what makes the difference but I suspect the higher permeability types are better.

Carroll
Hi Carroll,
Yes, that's most likely the case. Unfortunately, I have only one piece of ferrite, salvaged from a vintage radio. I need to get some more and compare.

Thanks
V
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  #1394  
Old 09-20-2016, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario View Post
This is a simplified schematic of how I'm running it. This way I don't have to use bifilars. I switch on the neg. side and the collapse of the primaries goes directly to batt 3. Nothing compared to your great schematics (I just don't find the time to do that..) but it gives an idea.

I'm using paralleled mosfets instead of the transistor.

Mario
Hi Mario,

Interesting idea. What is the freq. you're switching with? Did you try varying duty cycle?

Thanks
V
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  #1395  
Old 09-20-2016, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario View Post
This is a simplified schematic of how I'm running it. This way I don't have to use bifilars. I switch on the neg. side and the collapse of the primaries goes directly to batt 3. Nothing compared to your great schematics (I just don't find the time to do that..) but it gives an idea.

I'm using paralleled mosfets instead of the transistor.

Mario
Mario
Forgive me for my lack of electronic experience, i am trying to learn. On your schematic drawing,what is the symbol to the left of the transistor mean?
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  #1396  
Old 09-20-2016, 02:45 PM
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Sawt2, it just means that a square wave is driving the switching device.

V: I always let the coil and the various parameters tell me what the correct frequency and duty cycle is for a given situation. I've spent years playing with self triggered solid state SG's, so when you watch it on the scope after a while you know what the best charge and discharge timing is for a given coil. Right now it's running in the 2Khz area but that doesn't mean anything with respect to your setup since you're not running the same wire size, windindings, core type, batteries, etc…
I run my setup from a signal generator with variable frequency and duty cycle, this way I avoid having to have a trigger winding.

Mario
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  #1397  
Old 09-20-2016, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario View Post
Sawt2, it just means that a square wave is driving the switching device.

V: I always let the coil and the various parameters tell me what the correct frequency and duty cycle is for a given situation. I've spent years playing with self triggered solid state SG's, so when you watch it on the scope after a while you know what the best charge and discharge timing is for a given coil. Right now it's running in the 2Khz area but that doesn't mean anything with respect to your setup since you're not running the same wire size, windindings, core type, batteries, etc…
I run my setup from a signal generator with variable frequency and duty cycle, this way I avoid having to have a trigger winding.

Mario
Same here, just being curious. I have a scope hooked up as well.

Thanks
V
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  #1398  
Old 09-20-2016, 02:52 PM
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Sawt2, it just means that a square wave is driving the switching device.



Mario
I see.
Thank you
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  #1399  
Old 09-20-2016, 08:01 PM
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@Mario

I hooked up my setup the same way as yours and probed across Batt3 with and without the diode. All those spikes which I have without are gone with diode connected from Batt3 neg. to the positive of 24V bank and the output to the load decreases. What am I missing here (beside the spikes LOL)?
I found my freq. range with ferrite core about 650Hz is what gives best charging, highest output to the load and return to the primaries.
Still, the load is quite small at the moment to be considered even half decent.
More tweaking required.
Scope shot taken across Batt3 without a diode.

Update: never mind my comment regarding the diode. Your circuit works good. I used better diode HFA16PB120 and increased the load which gives better return to the primary batt's. Also, went back to iron core and adjusted freq to 250Hz which gives higher output to the load. I paralleled both secondary windings so there is a 1:1 ratio between primaries and secondary. This also slightly increased output to the load (16W LED array). I'll keep working on it as there is probably much more to improve.


V
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  #1400  
Old 09-21-2016, 02:59 PM
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V, I think with diode you don't see the spikes because they're absorbed by the battery. Using the same switching with a solid state SG circuit, the spikes I see across the switching device are quite higher with regards to having it this way, so it must be the setup, but they are still there.
Be careful not to blow your device if you run it without diode, lol!

Mario
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Old 09-21-2016, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario View Post
V, I think with diode you don't see the spikes because they're absorbed by the battery. Using the same switching with a solid state SG circuit, the spikes I see across the switching device are quite higher with regards to having it this way, so it must be the setup, but they are still there.
Be careful not to blow your device if you run it without diode, lol!

Mario
Hi Mario,

Yes, you're right. I was just curious why they manifest on large scale without the diode. My load was brighter too. With a diode they're funneled in one direction, instead of bouncing all over the place. Easy to get something fried.
Those spikes are quite big and I had to scroll my scope view to see their tops, despite x10 probe. I still need to find at least one more large battery as my fourth is much smaller than the rest.

This may be a step backwards in solid state version but I'm tempted to try mechanical switching for 3 coil setup. One set of brushes and commutator rotated with small, low draw variable speed DC motor. It may not show anything significant but I don't like to ignore any of my persistent thoughts
The main thing is to switch at as little as possible cost, current draw - wise.
What is your take on such idea?

Thanks
V
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  #1402  
Old 09-21-2016, 05:13 PM
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This may be a step backwards in solid state version but I'm tempted to try mechanical switching for 3 coil setup. One set of brushes and commutator rotated with small, low draw variable speed DC motor. It may not show anything significant but I don't like to ignore any of my persistent thoughts
The main thing is to switch at as little as possible cost, current draw - wise.
What is your take on such idea?

Thanks
V[/QUOTE]

V
Not sure on how it would work with Mario's 3 coil setup, but if you have an idea of how to do it.I would encourage you to go with your persistent thought and give it a try. Not being well versed in electronics i have designed and built a mechanical switching device for the 3 battery setup (Turion/Dave), still testing but preliminary results are extremely encouraging, under load the batteries tend to hold there voltage right around .1 to .2 volts below their standing voltage, then generally within 10-15 minutes after removing the load the batteries return to their starting voltage. At this point (over a 2 week period) I have only done a handful of 1/2 - 1 1/2 hr runs, but the batteries are still at the starting voltage plus i have run my bedini energizer and charged another battery up basically for free. Now for the disclaimer: I am using 2.9 ah batteries, (for the "3" batteries i have 2 each of the 2.9 connected in parallel for a total of six batteries, and my charge battery on the energizer is a 2.9 ah battery) cheap radio shack alligator clips, and using the mechanical switch I rotate the batteries every 50-70 seconds.
I am also in the process of putting a variable speed DC motor on the mechanical switch to experiment with different timing on the battery rotating.
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Old 09-21-2016, 06:14 PM
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Mechanical switching

Bob French has been experimenting with mechanical switching for several months now and has it down to a science. He is running a small modified Matt motor between the positives in parallel with his coils, and has an exterior commutator on the motor shaft with four brushes. The motor he is using is overkill for turning a commutator, but it does the job. We have talked about modifying one of the tiny RadioShack motors as a pulse motor to accomplish the same thing.

If you put the coils in SERIES with the pulse motor, it pulses the coils. If you put the coils in parallel with the pulse motor then you can use the exterior commutator to get MORE pulses per rotation of the pulse motor. As many as 16 times as many pulses per rotation. Simply connect every other segment on the commutator to the one directly across from it. That gives you four connections times the four brushes or 16 connections per rotation.
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  #1404  
Old 09-21-2016, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawt2 View Post

V
Not sure on how it would work with Mario's 3 coil setup, but if you have an idea of how to do it.I would encourage you to go with your persistent thought and give it a try.
Hi Sawt2,

I just re drew Mario's circuit, where S1 represents a switch, either solid state (Mosfet triggered from external pulse generator) or mechanical - commutator/slip rings etc.
Mechanical switching has an advantage of very sharp/abrupt rise and fall with many consequences, when comes to harmonics content and collapsing field. This type of switching as well as a spark gap in hv oscillators are hard to mimic with even state of the art semiconductors, due to their internal resistance, delays etc.

V
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  #1405  
Old 09-21-2016, 07:43 PM
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Hi Sawt2,

I just re drew Mario's circuit, where S1 represents a switch, either solid state (Mosfet triggered from external pulse generator) or mechanical - commutator/slip rings etc.
Mechanical switching has an advantage of very sharp/abrupt rise and fall with many consequences, when comes to harmonics content and collapsing field. This type of switching as well as a spark gap in hv oscillators are hard to mimic with even state of the art semiconductors, due to their internal resistance, delays etc.

V
Thats not really the truth. That might be the state of individual skills but still that is not the truth when it comes to Fets and IGBT's. Most new ones have the same resistance and voltage drop as couple of feet of wire. LOL and ya'll are winding these coils with plenty of that.
Lag in timing is more to do with the inductor (Coil) than anything and mechanical switching will not change that. Its all math. You wanna big transient spike don't saturate the coil. You want to transform current then you saturate. No matter what you want, Frequency and duty cycle will play a role. How you switch isn't as near important as the capacity of the coil to achieve a certain output.
Thats what has amazed me about this newest setup. What are you really doing? Your using a crude boost circuit. Thats it. Take one them boost circuits we were buying and pull the smoothing caps off of it. 200 khz of spikes flying out of that thing and probably at a better efficiency. LOL

Here, you want some guidance, Measure your coil for henry, then change the numbers in this calculator till you get what you have in the inductor. Now you have the best your gonna get. You can build communtator or use cheap FET and skip the smoothing caps.

https://learn.adafruit.com/diy-boost-calc?view=all

If you can't use micro controller or refuse to try then go with a 555. Here is that calculator.

555 (NE555) Astable Circuit Calculator

Even if you decide to ignore all this please do not act like we live in the early 80's and we have to fight tooth and nail just to drive a simple semi conductor. Take the time to learn how to use a semi conductor as a switch...

Matt
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  #1406  
Old 09-21-2016, 08:41 PM
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Matt,

I just shared and idea, nothing else. As I said, it may or may not matter in this setup how we switch and your points regarding coil parameters as well as freq and duty cycle are indisputable.
I can calculate 555 in my head but thank you for the link on boost calculator
What am I doing wrong with switching Fet's?

Thanks

V
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  #1407  
Old 09-21-2016, 09:17 PM
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Matt,

I just shared and idea, nothing else. As I said, it may or may not matter in this setup how we switch and your points regarding coil parameters as well as freq and duty cycle are indisputable.
I can calculate 555 in my head but thank you for the link on boost calculator
What am I doing wrong with switching Fet's?

Thanks

V
I don't know what your doing wrong... How could I? But if your under the opinion that Fets cannot produce strong on off signals then you must be doing something wrong. I am sure mechanical can do just as much but the dynamic ability to adjust is just not there.

I was just bothered by the statement that semi conductors are somehow inferior, do to delay time and voltage drop, which almost don't exist anymore in a modern semi conductor.

Just my opinion,But a good mosfet switch outperforms a mechanical switch every day of the week just because of its ability to be adjusted quickly.

Matt
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  #1408  
Old 09-21-2016, 09:29 PM
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Hi all, Hi matt, interesting idea about removing smoothing capacitors on output of boost converter, i had that same thought awhile ago.
I wonder though, if a load isn't connected with the capacitors removed, would the spikes damage the boost converter, maybe a neon should be placed across output just in case.
I think i will try it, can always solder them back on if need be.
peace love light
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Old 09-21-2016, 09:47 PM
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Hi all, Hi matt, interesting idea about removing smoothing capacitors on output of boost converter, i had that same thought awhile ago.
I wonder though, if a load isn't connected with the capacitors removed, would the spikes damage the boost converter, maybe a neon should be placed across output just in case.
I think i will try it, can always solder them back on if need be.
peace love light
The spikes might hurt the load but they will not hurt the boost converter as there is a diode to allow them to travel outwards.
Worst case you have solder in some some small caps so the chip that drive the thing will function. .01 PF at 500 volt or something like that. But I do not think that is the case from looking at mine.

Matt
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  #1410  
Old 09-21-2016, 11:18 PM
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blackchisel97 blackchisel97 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
I don't know what your doing wrong... How could I? But if your under the opinion that Fets cannot produce strong on off signals then you must be doing something wrong. I am sure mechanical can do just as much but the dynamic ability to adjust is just not there.

I was just bothered by the statement that semi conductors are somehow inferior, do to delay time and voltage drop, which almost don't exist anymore in a modern semi conductor.

Just my opinion,But a good mosfet switch outperforms a mechanical switch every day of the week just because of its ability to be adjusted quickly.

Matt
Ok, that's the beauty of online communication vs live one.
I thought, you have a problem with my posted diagram and the side/way of switching... sending me back to study 555 and semiconductor theory .
What about the noise/harmonics content? Certainly, we won't get that in solid state but is this something that matters here, in your (or anybody else) opinion?
Again, just asking about this particular setup, not in general as I know the answers for different other applications. .

Thanks
V
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