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  #1351  
Old 09-14-2016, 06:12 PM
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Skywatcher,

I'm not using permanent magnets. I just described a way to substitute the pulse motor in the 3 battery system with a transformer that does have an acceptable transfer rate from primary ()or primaries to secondary, and is pretty good in recycling the collapse. This in itself is not OU but it is a good option for the 3 battery system. Not all transformers allow to do both well.

Mario
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  #1352  
Old 09-14-2016, 06:49 PM
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Hi mario, i'm aware of what your intention is, i just feel it has similar attributes.

I have 2 different coil-cores i'm going to try for my solid state oscillator.
One is from some previous partnered coil experiments, it has 3 coils on a ferrite flyback c-core, bifilar coil in middle, with a secondary on each side, all wire is 24awg. magnet wire.

The other coil-core is from another previous experiment, it is five strands of 24awg. magnet wire on a straight ferrite tube core, i just went outside and using a drill, twisted all 5 strands together, total length, about 60 feet.
I figure i would use 2 strands for the oscillator, or maybe 1 feedback and 2 in parallel, then place the other 2 strands in series with full wave bridge output to 3rd charge battery.
peace love light
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  #1353  
Old 09-15-2016, 03:42 AM
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Hi all, the 5 strand coil on the ferrite tube is looking very efficient so far.
I am using 1 strand for oscillator feedback, 2 strands in parallel for primary and the other 2 strands are in series and connected to full wave bridge rectifier.
A couple 6 watt led bulbs are in series with bridge DC output, then into 3rd charge battery position.
peace love light
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  #1354  
Old 09-15-2016, 03:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario View Post
Hi V,

it's 3 coils sitting on a straight ferrite core, right next to each other. This has not much to do with Kunel, no permanent magnets. This is just simple transformer action and recovery from the collapsing field.
For transformer action only, closed cores are more efficient of course, but here we also want to collect the collapsing field, and from what I've been testing an open core is much more suitable. An open core with just two coils has an inefficient transformer action, but it gets much better when you put the secondary between two primaries.

Mario
Thanks Mario. All clear

V
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  #1355  
Old 09-15-2016, 05:07 AM
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Quote:
An open core with just two coils has an inefficient transformer action, but it gets much better when you put the secondary between two primaries.
Hi all, Hi mario, what about the secondary being tightly coupled to the primary, as i am testing right now, with the twisted multi-strand coil on an open ferrite core.
Sure seems to be doing very well so far, i know, because i've been testing many different coil setups.
Though your idea may be just as good.
peace love light
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  #1356  
Old 09-15-2016, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyWatcher View Post
Hi all, the 5 strand coil on the ferrite tube is looking very efficient so far.
I am using 1 strand for oscillator feedback, 2 strands in parallel for primary and the other 2 strands are in series and connected to full wave bridge rectifier.
A couple 6 watt led bulbs are in series with bridge DC output, then into 3rd charge battery position.
peace love light
Any chance you would do a sketch of that circuit.
Thank you
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  #1357  
Old 09-15-2016, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario View Post
Hi V,

it's 3 coils sitting on a straight ferrite core, right next to each other. This has not much to do with Kunel, no permanent magnets. This is just simple transformer action and recovery from the collapsing field.
For transformer action only, closed cores are more efficient of course, but here we also want to collect the collapsing field, and from what I've been testing an open core is much more suitable. An open core with just two coils has an inefficient transformer action, but it gets much better when you put the secondary between two primaries.

Mario
Would you be able to sketch your circuit out for us.
Thank you
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  #1358  
Old 09-15-2016, 11:20 AM
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I apologize for the very rough drawing but I'm out of time right now..

It's just a basic setup of a solid state SG running two primaries with a secondary in between with its load. the collapse of the primaries goes to a battery.
You can put this between the potential difference in the 3 batt setup instead of a pulse motor or SG. In that case you need bifilar coils on the primaries. The second (isolated) wire of each bifilar primary coil routes the collapse of the primaries to battery 3.
There's another setup where you can do the same without needing the bifilars to go to battery 3 but I want to test it first.

Mario
Attached Images
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File Type: jpg IMG_2316.jpg (164.9 KB, 130 views)
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  #1359  
Old 09-15-2016, 03:44 PM
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Boguslaw,

I have no idea what your circuit is supposed to do? Have you built it and tested?

Mario
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  #1360  
Old 09-15-2016, 04:44 PM
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I've seen the circuit. That's not what I asked.

Mario
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  #1361  
Old 09-15-2016, 05:08 PM
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Hi all, Hi sawt2, here is the circuit and pic of coil and setup.
peace love light



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  #1362  
Old 09-15-2016, 06:07 PM
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Boguslaw,

again, yes I've seen it, since you've posted it like three times lol.

What I asked was: have you built it and tetsted it?

Mario
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  #1363  
Old 09-15-2016, 07:46 PM
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Cats and bags

Guys, if you are not careful, you're going to let the cat out of the bag! Nothing worse than a loose cat!
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  #1364  
Old 09-15-2016, 08:36 PM
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Forget it. My mistake.
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  #1365  
Old 09-16-2016, 01:32 AM
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[QUOTE=SkyWatcher;292688]Hi all, Hi sawt2, here is the circuit and pic of coil and setup.

Sky
Than you for posting the diagram and picture.
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  #1366  
Old 09-16-2016, 01:36 AM
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I apologize for the very rough drawing but I'm out of time right now..

It's just a basic setup of a solid state SG running two primaries with a secondary in between with its load. the collapse of the primaries goes to a battery.
You can put this between the potential difference in the 3 batt setup instead of a pulse motor or SG. In that case you need bifilar coils on the primaries. The second (isolated) wire of each bifilar primary coil routes the collapse of the primaries to battery 3.
There's another setup where you can do the same without needing the bifilars to go to battery 3 but I want to test it first.

Mario

Thank you for posting the drawing and pic.
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  #1367  
Old 09-16-2016, 08:26 AM
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Guys,

I think there might still be some confusion. The transformer setup has nothing to do with Kunel, the Figuera device with its N and S coils, and it has no permanent magnets.
I wanted to do what Dave was talking about, meaning basically a 3 battery system with a transformer to replace and simulate a pulse motor. Like what P.Lindemann presented, only solid state.

You can NOT just use any transformer for this. I know because I did tests with different transformer types.

We want the collapse routed to the third battery, so the battery gets the direct straight ON pulse trough the transformer primary and it gets the collapse of the primary after that.
So we want something that has BOTH, a decent recycling ratio and a decent transfer rate from primary to secondary to drive the load.

Normal transformers have a good transfer rate but after the ON pulse they barely recycle anything back. It's also due to the closed core setup.

Having one multifilar winding serving as primary and secondary has the same problems. Good transfer from primary to secondary but bad very low recycling. Or very good for recycling if not used as a transformer during the ON pulse.

So the best solution to have both, from what I have seen, is an open core with the secondary sandwiched between two primaries. It also simulates best what a motored SG does. It passes energy to rotate the wheel during the ON pulse and recycles the collapsing field after that. Here we pass energy to the secondary and load during the ON pulse and recycle the field after that.
To be more precise the SG is still pushing the magnet away even during the collapse, since the current of the collapse keeps moving in the same direction. This current we send to the battery actually slows down the collapse and helps the coil in staying a magnet for a longer time (with respect to an open collapse which would be immediate and wasted). If you don't believe me try hitting a coil with a battery and watch how long the coil remains a magnet if the collapse it routed through a shorting diode…

Anyway, the sandwiched transformer behaves sort of the same way an SG or pulse motor does. You charge the primary while doing work on the secondary during the ON time. Then you collect the collapse of the primary back to the 3rd battery. Since the load is connected through an FWBR the load gets the ON time and the collapse from its own coil who's core is shared with the primaries which are also collapsing in that moment.
You can also just put a forward diode so that the load sees the ON pulse only, but from tests the FWBR seems to be the best option.

I'm not saying it is the best solution but it's the best I've seen so far.

Mario
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  #1368  
Old 09-16-2016, 01:41 PM
Peter Lindemann Peter Lindemann is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario View Post
Guys,

I think there might still be some confusion. The transformer setup has nothing to do with Kunel, the Figuera device with its N and S coils, and it has no permanent magnets.
I wanted to do what Dave was talking about, meaning basically a 3 battery system with a transformer to replace and simulate a pulse motor. Like what P.Lindemann presented, only solid state.

You can NOT just use any transformer for this. I know because I did tests with different transformer types.

We want the collapse routed to the third battery, so the battery gets the direct straight ON pulse trough the transformer primary and it gets the collapse of the primary after that.
So we want something that has BOTH, a decent recycling ratio and a decent transfer rate from primary to secondary to drive the load.

Normal transformers have a good transfer rate but after the ON pulse they barely recycle anything back. It's also due to the closed core setup.

Having one multifilar winding serving as primary and secondary has the same problems. Good transfer from primary to secondary but bad very low recycling. Or very good for recycling if not used as a transformer during the ON pulse.

So the best solution to have both, from what I have seen, is an open core with the secondary sandwiched between two primaries. It also simulates best what a motored SG does. It passes energy to rotate the wheel during the ON pulse and recycles the collapsing field after that. Here we pass energy to the secondary and load during the ON pulse and recycle the field after that.
To be more precise the SG is still pushing the magnet away even during the collapse, since the current of the collapse keeps moving in the same direction. This current we send to the battery actually slows down the collapse and helps the coil in staying a magnet for a longer time (with respect to an open collapse which would be immediate and wasted). If you don't believe me try hitting a coil with a battery and watch how long the coil remains a magnet if the collapse it routed through a shorting diode…

Anyway, the sandwiched transformer behaves sort of the same way an SG or pulse motor does. You charge the primary while doing work on the secondary during the ON time. Then you collect the collapse of the primary back to the 3rd battery. Since the load is connected through an FWBR the load gets the ON time and the collapse from its own coil who's core is shared with the primaries which are also collapsing in that moment.
You can also just put a forward diode so that the load sees the ON pulse only, but from tests the FWBR seems to be the best option.

I'm not saying it is the best solution but it's the best I've seen so far.

Mario
Mario,



Peter
  #1369  
Old 09-16-2016, 07:34 PM
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Hi Peter,

thanks, I arranged my 4 battery banks to 2 x 7Ah in series each. On the output I'm running a load off the FWBR+cap which is almost 10 W. Input is about 0.7 amps, so in the C10 range.
So far I've done two complete cycles (switching manually) at 15 minutes each. letting the charged battery rest for a cycle.
Of course it's too early draw any conclusion yet but so far the batteries don't seem to have lost anything after resting

Mario
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  #1370  
Old 09-16-2016, 07:35 PM
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Great job Mario!

I hope all of you realize that you are now all chasing a cat.

There are lots of little things that can be done to improve on what Mario has done, but I know he is seeing RIGHT NOW what I saw.
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  #1371  
Old 09-16-2016, 07:50 PM
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Hi Dave,

I'm sure there are! Like building a bigger coil with more and thicker wire, which means more mass, less resistance, more radiant. I'm using 500V mosfets with about 20 nanosecs rise/fall times, diodes are UF5408.
And bigger batteries of course, but this is a small proof of concept. Oh, and automatic battery swapping.. what a pain doing it manually so many times...

Btw, I love cats

Mario
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  #1372  
Old 09-16-2016, 08:12 PM
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Hi Mario,

In case you missed it, if you go to post 1355 in this thread I have posted some information for a fairly simple automatic battery swapping circuit. I am using a Picaxe processor but you should be able to adapt the program for Arduino or other processor.

Carroll
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  #1373  
Old 09-16-2016, 08:21 PM
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Thanks Carroll, I'll look into it.

Mario
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  #1374  
Old 09-16-2016, 09:00 PM
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PM

Mario,
Check your PM's if you haven't already.
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  #1375  
Old 09-17-2016, 04:19 AM
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Hi all, I am building a coil-core as mario describes also for testing, i will be using 24awg. secondary in middle and bifilar 24awg. on both sides.
I slid the ferrite core out of the multifilar coil and it works well also, draws a little more, though charges the 3rd battery that much better also.
peace love light
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  #1376  
Old 09-17-2016, 04:38 AM
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Info

Removed. Will update later
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Last edited by Turion; 09-17-2016 at 04:40 AM.
  #1377  
Old 09-17-2016, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyWatcher View Post
Hi all, I am building a coil-core as mario describes also for testing, i will be using 24awg. secondary in middle and bifilar 24awg. on both sides.
I slid the ferrite core out of the multifilar coil and it works well also, draws a little more, though charges the 3rd battery that much better also.
peace love light
Sky, about what ohms did the coils turn out? What frequency are you pulsing at?

thanks, Ron
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  #1378  
Old 09-17-2016, 07:01 PM
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Hi i_ron, if you are asking about the multifilar coil, each 24awg. strand is around 2.2 ohms, so since 2 are in parallel for the primary, that is 1.1 ohms.
Have not measured frequency, though i would guess between 15 - 20 khz
Getting ready to start winding the coils on the secondary in the middle coil design.
peace love light
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  #1379  
Old 09-18-2016, 03:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyWatcher View Post
Hi i_ron, if you are asking about the multifilar coil, each 24awg. strand is around 2.2 ohms, so since 2 are in parallel for the primary, that is 1.1 ohms.
Have not measured frequency, though i would guess between 15 - 20 khz
Getting ready to start winding the coils on the secondary in the middle coil design.
peace love light
Thanks Sky, much appreciated

Ron
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  #1380  
Old 09-18-2016, 07:54 PM
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Hi all, i just hooked up the mario's style coil-core, with secondary in middle and a primary on each side, with an open straight ferrite core.
Initial results look very good.
Just using the full wave bridge off secondary into 3rd charge battery causes the neon bulb across the transistor to light up, so i also hooked up the single high speed diode off the primaries into the 3rd charge battery and that turned off the neon and gives even better 3rd battery charging.
Keep in mind, the full wave bridge is a standard 60 hertz type slow diode design.
I also hooked up the bifilar primaries in parallel, which is probably why the neon comes on, must be a mismatch in impedance between the two coils, as i did not match them yet.
Though my quick observations of voltage drop on the primary series batteries and voltage rise in 3rd charge battery, plus the light output in led bulbs, it looks really good.
peace love light
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