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  #961  
Old 06-07-2016, 03:24 PM
dragon dragon is offline
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Skepticism, research and thoughts....

Several years back I played with the battery switching circuits. A couple switches I designed and built, diagrams, were posted earlier. I was pretty much convinced it was working as I was seeing it - a very efficient use of energy. In the back of my mind I knew something wasn't right in my interpretation of the events. I purchased a couple watt meters and placed them in line with the battery switching process and cleared up my unanswered questions very quickly. I was very disappointed in what I saw and moved on to other projects quite abruptly.

After a while of pondering I started calculating what I thought was the problem(s). With 4 batteries switching from parallel to series connections gives you a gross mismatch of passive storage and you always loose energy in the transfer from high to low. In the case of the 4 battery switch, if each battery is 10ah you end up with a 20ah parallel and a 10ah series. The 3 battery system is better - a much closer match - series 10ah into a single 10ah.... 1 amp in 1 amp out. Still the problem exists with the higher potential series into the lower potential single - 1 amp at 24 volts to 1 amp at 12 volts .

The objective is to maintain an imbalance to drive a load between potentials. Charging the single isn't a problem, driving a load between them isn't a problem... maintaining a charge on the series batteries (is in my mind) the main problem. The load needs to not only run between potentials but also assist in restoring the higher potential series batteries. The 3 battery system allows 1 battery to charge while discharging 2, or more closely, one battery in the series is charging another battery while the second battery in series is running a load.

It gives us the appearance we are gaining something because we are charging the single and to some extent this is correct but are we really just deceiving ourselves? Maybe were overlooking the truth with false belief's/hopes that there is some magic going on here.

Ok then, let's put the hopes, dreams and beliefs aside while remaining mildly objective and dig toward the truth....

The series batteries are being drained through the load into the single battery and back to the series through the neg connection. A basic DC circuit. We switch the charged battery periodically with one that is being drained more that the other to maintain a higher potential and recharge one that has drained. Seems logical...

Let's turn it around a bit and look at from a different angle... Lets say we don't switch batteries around, instead let's maintain the voltage of the charging battery by removing the amount it is being charged to assist in charging the series batteries. Everything that is being added to the charge battery is being removed to maintain the source batteries as well as keeping the charge battery in a charged state.

A boost circuit to drain the charge battery and add charge to the series. 1 amp into the charge battery and 1 amp out to the series battery - It then boils down to the overall efficiency of the circuits and load to maintain both series and single charge batteries state of charge.

One of the simple experiments I did while running with this train of thought was using 2 identical 7ah 12V batteries, a simple JT circuit between the positives. As long as there was a potential difference of .5 down to .25 volts the LED's would light quite brightly. It takes a very long time to equalize the batteries through a JT circuit. I noticed that by simply tapping the high pos/ low pos with a 1v battery would offset the potential enough for several more hours of run time. It occurred to me that a boost circuit with an RC time constant of several seconds would shift the potential sufficiently to maintain a continuous potential difference while the JT circuit tried to equalize the batteries. In this particular case there was probably more losses to the ambient and internal battery resistance than the circuits but I did prove to myself there was potential in this process. ( pun intended)

I've tried a multiple of variations and found that it basically boils down to the efficiency of the load ( use of energy ) and the efficiency of transformation from low to high ( pumping the water uphill). The larger the potential difference between the batteries the more looses will occur in the transforming process.... this being the key process. Matching the load wattage to the transformation wattage maintaining the potential difference as efficiently as possible.
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  #962  
Old 06-07-2016, 04:43 PM
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wantomake wantomake is online now
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Position #1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
Please hear this loud and clear....

This circuit is NOT the final solution. Matt's motor is NOT the final solution. Matt's motor run on this circuit is NOT the final solution. Adding the boost circuit is NOT the final solution.

You need the switching to rotate the batteries through the five different positions when battery 3 is charged up. You need five GOOD STRONG fully charged batteries that are not old and worn out. Each one will move through these five positions in this order.

1. Position One (as Battery one of the two in series)
2. Position two (as battery 2 of the two in series)
3. Resting Because it has been DISCHARGED in BOTH the previous positions)
4. Position three (in parallel with one and two, charging)
5. Resting

You need a generator run by the motor that can put out power so you can ADD a little power back into the system when it is needed. Nothing lasts forever, and cold and heat are the ENEMIES of batteries. Without a generator you have NOTHING here that is going to get you what you want.

But any decent generator is going to give you an over unity device if all these things are in place. It just IS.

Good luck. There are some folks on this forum who could put together a switching circuit to share with everyone else without half trying, if they will.
Dave and All,
I've switched out rested and charged batteries to position #1 and still get a faster drain on this position than #2 battery. Is this correct? If so do I just need to switch out this position? Anyone else have this happen? Of course will test more. I have plan to add generator to the system later.

So much going through my head to test out,
wantomake
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  #963  
Old 06-07-2016, 04:53 PM
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Interesting

If you line everything up in a row and you have two batteries in series (with the positive of the battery near the motor turned so that its positive is toward the motor) and then the motor and then the third battery (with its positive toward the motor) I call the battery in series that is closer to the motor position two. The positive on it is connected to the positive on the motor. In my experience, this battery ALWAYS drains faster than position One. Always, so I am surprised by what you have reported out.
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  #964  
Old 06-07-2016, 05:48 PM
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My mistake then, I thought position #1 is next to the motor, then in series is #2. So the battery connected to the motor is the one I was referring to losing voltage.
My mistake,
wantomake
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Last edited by wantomake; 06-07-2016 at 05:59 PM.
  #965  
Old 06-07-2016, 06:09 PM
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Confusion

Not your mistake. Mine, for not being more clear. I had discussions with Bob French for a year before we realized he was calling a battery "number one" while I was referring to that same battery as "number two".
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  #966  
Old 06-07-2016, 06:21 PM
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Up and running

First test!

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Last edited by i_ron; 06-07-2016 at 07:37 PM.
  #967  
Old 06-07-2016, 07:27 PM
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Why would you want 5 batteries???

1. Batt 1-First battery in series
2. Batt 2-Second battery in series hook to the load
3. Batt 3-resting
4. Batt 4-Charge Battery
5. Batt 5-resting.

Now just cycle the batteries 1 at a time.

The reason to rest the batteries is so they can switch states easier. If you take a battery that just discharged then try to immediately charge it you have to spend a little energy turning the ions around.
If you put a battery in a discharge point that has just been charged you loose alot of the surface charge real quick and loose energy turning the battery around.

You do not need 5 batteries but it helps.

Matt
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  #968  
Old 06-07-2016, 07:49 PM
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I thought it was Dave's typo..... just checking....
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  #969  
Old 06-07-2016, 07:56 PM
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So what are the disadvantages of having two batteries the same ampere hour rating and one different?

Are there any advantages?
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  #970  
Old 06-07-2016, 08:49 PM
i_ron i_ron is offline
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confidence builder

Quote:
Originally Posted by soundiceuk View Post

So what are the disadvantages of having two batteries the same ampere hour rating and one different?

Are there any advantages?
Yes Paul, that is what I had! and the advise was start small. This works, now I have the confidence to spend the big bucks on expensive batteries.

Ron
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  #971  
Old 06-08-2016, 12:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i_ron View Post
Yes Paul, that is what I had! and the advise was start small. This works, now I have the confidence to spend the big bucks on expensive batteries.

Ron
Its good advice I promise you!!

Matt
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  #972  
Old 06-08-2016, 12:52 AM
Wistiti Wistiti is offline
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to bad i have order the less winding turn boost converter like the first Dave show in is video... But as i understand it may work..? I will see it when i recive it!
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File Type: png image.png (416.9 KB, 37 views)
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  #973  
Old 06-08-2016, 01:22 AM
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They work just fine.

Matt
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  #974  
Old 06-08-2016, 02:20 AM
Wistiti Wistiti is offline
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:)

4 big battery being charged by 2 smaller battery wile runing a small inverter to light the room...
I just really love it!
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  #975  
Old 06-08-2016, 02:27 AM
Wistiti Wistiti is offline
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A bit later... 👍
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  #976  
Old 06-08-2016, 02:38 AM
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That looks like its working. Thats what I would expect to see. Don't settle for less. The charging should be more obvious the higher the charge batteries go.

Matt
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  #977  
Old 06-08-2016, 05:11 AM
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hi all. i haven't got much to play with,so far i have charged some batteries with the circuit in pic 1, running a spindle motor at about 100 ma, not much. early observations suggest that the charging batt/s sorta dictate/regulate the voltage across it/them.and the motor presumably runs at the supply voltage minus the charge batt. voltage. apologies matt or dave if it's a wrong assumption. it's a bit of a guess as it's too spiky to measure the charge batts voltage with the motor running/pulsing, on my tired and possibly getting flaky dmm. the motor winding has a dcr of 2.6 ohms. this circuit is a bit like the re-emf circuit, which is a solid state version, but the load is between the pos's here and the spike recovery looks good on this too. i will add a 50 ma old school needle type ammeter in the spike return line. i tried some other brushless motors and this 1 kicks on switch-off the best but it still may not amount to much.** have seen 28ma on the meter.as thats a steady average of pulsed spikes, it's significant.
tip 122's have that diode built in. has no effect, i presume. vr1 makes starting/tweaking for max rpm easier.yellow box is a mini isolation transformer.
presumably it could/should have 1 or 2 batt's and a boost module on the left instead of as in the diagram.
pic 3a is a neat little joule thief inverter, by mr quantsuff. it's more efficient than most j.t's. 3b is slightly modded. hopefuly, brushless motors and flea power isn't too off topic. i guess whether you deal in milliamps or amps, the principles to study and learn are still the same.
cheers.
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File Type: jpg brushless motor in series wit charging battery,s..JPG (12.4 KB, 61 views)
File Type: jpg floppy spindle drive. motor.JPG (33.1 KB, 57 views)
File Type: jpg mr q on left. modded on right..JPG (19.2 KB, 59 views)
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Last edited by voltan; 06-12-2016 at 08:18 AM.
  #978  
Old 06-08-2016, 12:33 PM
Wistiti Wistiti is offline
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Alternative cheap motor

I have a couple of these car radiator fan motor. They also have 4 magnets inside.
Mabe we can use it for the Matt modification?? What do you think of it?
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  #979  
Old 06-08-2016, 03:13 PM
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Resting time

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
Why would you want 5 batteries???

1. Batt 1-First battery in series
2. Batt 2-Second battery in series hook to the load
3. Batt 3-resting
4. Batt 4-Charge Battery
5. Batt 5-resting.

Now just cycle the batteries 1 at a time.

The reason to rest the batteries is so they can switch states easier. If you take a battery that just discharged then try to immediately charge it you have to spend a little energy turning the ions around.
If you put a battery in a discharge point that has just been charged you loose alot of the surface charge real quick and loose energy turning the battery around.

You do not need 5 batteries but it helps.

Matt
Matt,
I'm glad you listed this in order as you did. The "resting" time is defined as the standing voltage before using the battery correct? Like Dave, and yourself I'm sure, my battery bone yard is full of different types that take different rest times. These marine batteries discharge slowly but take longer rest times.

Is this an important point to know about your circuit components? That's a good reason to get all same size, age, brand batteries in your setup. May be expensive, but I've stopped many experiments early from compromising exact setups. But I learned how the 3BGS works and to follow the instructions given as I progressed.

I have a stock MY1016 scooter motor coupled to the modified Matt motor. The latter is generating to a FWBR with smoothing capacitor. Generates up to 30~32 vdc without a load attached. The potential difference drops faster with this load attached.

My question. Can this be used to slow the voltage drop on the potential difference or help charge the charging batteries?

There's so much more to this setup than my experiences have taught me and look forward to where it will take us.

Good to see all the experimenters here,
wantomake

PS. At work, but asap will post pics
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  #980  
Old 06-08-2016, 05:17 PM
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wantomake,
you could use the output of your generator to help charge the charging batteries, but that just makes your potential difference go away faster. You shouldn't charge the other batteries while they are discharging. BUT if it is putting out the voltage you say it is, it is running on 12 volts and putting out 32. I'd start looking at a way to direct that voltage back to the beginning to use it as the HIGH VOLTAGE SIDE rather than the two primary batteries. Then you have to start looking at how many amps it is and will it run the system rather than the batteries.

I want to address is that dropping potential difference. Every setup should be using the boost converter. Here is what I have been using:
150W DC DC Boost Converter 10 32V to 12 35V 6A Step Up Power supply module | eBay

Here is what I am going to try:
DC 3 32V Step Up to 5 35V Boost Converter Voltage Regulator Power Supply Module | eBay

The reason for the second one is that its operating voltage is all the way down at 3 volts. You should have switched batteries long before your potential difference gets down to 3 volts or you will probably have blown up battery 3. BOOM!

However I do NOT know if the second one will work. It MAY have that chip in it. I won't know until I get one. I have a schematic that I am going to share with Matt and see what he thinks, to use with these boost converters that won't work because of the chip in them.
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  #981  
Old 06-08-2016, 06:46 PM
Wistiti Wistiti is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
wantomake,
you could use the output of your generator to help charge the charging batteries, but that just makes your potential difference go away faster. You shouldn't charge the other batteries while they are discharging. BUT if it is putting out the voltage you say it is, it is running on 12 volts and putting out 32. I'd start looking at a way to direct that voltage back to the beginning to use it as the HIGH VOLTAGE SIDE rather than the two primary batteries. Then you have to start looking at how many amps it is and will it run the system rather than the batteries.

I want to address is that dropping potential difference. Every setup should be using the boost converter. Here is what I have been using:
150W DC DC Boost Converter 10 32V to 12 35V 6A Step Up Power supply module | eBay




Here is what I am going to try:
DC 3 32V Step Up to 5 35V Boost Converter Voltage Regulator Power Supply Module | eBay

The reason for the second one is that its operating voltage is all the way down at 3 volts. You should have switched batteries long before your potential difference gets down to 3 volts or you will probably have blown up battery 3. BOOM!

However I do NOT know if the second one will work. It MAY have that chip in it. I won't know until I get one. I have a schematic that I am going to share with Matt and see what he thinks, to use with these boost converters that won't work because of the chip in them.
Hi Dave.
I think the 3v dc converter may be to low in power (watt) to be use in this setup...
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  #982  
Old 06-08-2016, 07:46 PM
i_ron i_ron is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
Here is what I am going to try:


However I do NOT know if the second one will work. It MAY have that chip in it. I won't know until I get one. I have a schematic that I am going to share with Matt and see what he thinks, to use with these boost converters that won't work because of the chip in them.
Dave, just a thought... what if you jumper the two negatives together on the one with the chip in it? If you do that it is no longer an isolated supply, but that is what we want?

Ron
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  #983  
Old 06-08-2016, 08:19 PM
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Iron,

I have no idea. I would have to try that. And I want to try this other circuit with the boost converter in it. It doesn't have the negatives the boost converter going to the same place as the positive,which is what I think some of the boost converters don't like.
Dave
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  #984  
Old 06-08-2016, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wistiti View Post
I have a couple of these car radiator fan motor. They also have 4 magnets inside.
Mabe we can use it for the Matt modification?? What do you think of it?
That looks like it will work but it have a few more poles so you'll have to guess the adjustments. Shouldn't be a biggy.

Matt
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  #985  
Old 06-08-2016, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
wantomake,
you could use the output of your generator to help charge the charging batteries, but that just makes your potential difference go away faster. You shouldn't charge the other batteries while they are discharging. BUT if it is putting out the voltage you say it is, it is running on 12 volts and putting out 32. I'd start looking at a way to direct that voltage back to the beginning to use it as the HIGH VOLTAGE SIDE rather than the two primary batteries. Then you have to start looking at how many amps it is and will it run the system rather than the batteries.

I want to address is that dropping potential difference. Every setup should be using the boost converter. Here is what I have been using:
150W DC DC Boost Converter 10 32V to 12 35V 6A Step Up Power supply module | eBay

Here is what I am going to try:
DC 3 32V Step Up to 5 35V Boost Converter Voltage Regulator Power Supply Module | eBay

The reason for the second one is that its operating voltage is all the way down at 3 volts. You should have switched batteries long before your potential difference gets down to 3 volts or you will probably have blown up battery 3. BOOM!

However I do NOT know if the second one will work. It MAY have that chip in it. I won't know until I get one. I have a schematic that I am going to share with Matt and see what he thinks, to use with these boost converters that won't work because of the chip in them.
Ya Dave, that one should work but its only 4 amps.

I may see if I can get design going for a 20 amp boost that runs between 6- 18 volt with no worries. I was reading this morning about it. Just uses a 555 timer and couple of other things. Should work, stay tuned.

Matt
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  #986  
Old 06-08-2016, 11:20 PM
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Boost Module

Matt says that the way I have of running the boost circuit may work, so here it is.
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  #987  
Old 06-09-2016, 01:25 AM
i_ron i_ron is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post

I want to address is that dropping potential difference. Every setup should be using the boost converter. Here is what I have been using:
150W DC DC Boost Converter 10 32V to 12 35V 6A Step Up Power supply module | eBay

.
Quote:
to bad i have order the less winding turn boost converter like the first Dave show in is video... But as i understand it may work..?
Dave, Wistiti,

This is quite a robust little booster. It (mine ) uses the UC3843 SMPS contoller, a 98 amp N fet, the STP80NF70 and a STPS2045 double diode Schottky rated at 10 amps continuous per diode, so 20 amps continuous for the two diodes

So temperature will be the limiting factor, too hot and it will die. It is always possible to upgrade the heat sinks and it should run 10 amps +, all day.

Ron
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  #988  
Old 06-09-2016, 03:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i_ron View Post
Dave, Wistiti,

This is quite a robust little booster. It (mine ) uses the UC3843 SMPS contoller, a 98 amp N fet, the STP80NF70 and a STPS2045 double diode Schottky rated at 10 amps continuous per diode, so 20 amps continuous for the two diodes

So temperature will be the limiting factor, too hot and it will die. It is always possible to upgrade the heat sinks and it should run 10 amps +, all day.

Ron
Well you have to change the resistor set on the the UC3843 Pins 1 - 4 to allow the current to go up. Probably better to start from scratch, then to try to change an existing board.

Matt
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  #989  
Old 06-09-2016, 03:11 AM
Wistiti Wistiti is offline
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Thank you Ron!

I am thinking of using a cooling fan on it... depending of how much amp it will drive. I have somes salvage from old computers towers.

how drop your 24vdc primary with this boost converter?
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  #990  
Old 06-09-2016, 03:34 AM
Wistiti Wistiti is offline
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Quote:
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Matt says that the way I have of running the boost circuit may work, so here it is.
As i see it, my feeling is it may consume moore than it will put out...
Anyway, the best way to know it; is to test it!

Hope it will not blow component
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