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  #361  
Old 01-07-2015, 08:26 AM
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voltan voltan is offline
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hi tishatang.can i ask,how do you run the first alternator.is it modified or do you drive it with a 3 phase controller?
cheers.and good work.
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  #362  
Old 01-07-2015, 09:08 AM
Tishatang Tishatang is offline
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Hi Voltan

I modified the alternator in a couple Ways. First I chose Denso 90 amp units. These have two windings in parallel per coil. This gives an option to wire the two windings in serial and get 24v out. I had to isolate the bridge diode and bring out the wires independently. I eliminate the voltage regulators and use 6 volt batteries for the rotor voltages.

Then I use Model Car RC unit as the controller. I go into exact detail of my build on a forum. For you and others that are interested, go here:

http://open-source-energy.org/index.php?topic=1647.0

Chris
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  #363  
Old 01-07-2015, 10:02 AM
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thanks mate. i'll check it out.while you got a bifilar wound motor this scheme might be worth a look.it's great for looping spike recovery back to the source.you energize 1 strand and the slave strand provides the partial refund.simple and effective. this is only for 1 polarity.3 phase ac would need a dual polarity version,if it's doable,times 3.i've been wanting to try it in a motor instead of a solid state blocking oscillator for ages.i'm going to put a bifilar winding on the rc motor,mainly to see how it goes with a quarter of the dcr,but i will explore this as well.
cheers.
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  #364  
Old 01-07-2015, 06:22 PM
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jettis jettis is offline
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Hi all,

I thought this configuration was special but after some more testing with capacitors in place of the midsection batteries and finally just straight hooking the motors between the high voltage and low voltage sources it turns out to just be a series motor configuration with recovery to the small side battery. It is all in the name of learning and trying to learn about this tech. Perhaps I should learn to tone down the names of my threads.

If anyone has tried this let me know if you have found the same results as I have. Sorry about the confusion.

-Dave Wing
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  #365  
Old 01-07-2015, 06:50 PM
Tishatang Tishatang is offline
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@voltan
The main thing is to get a stable reliable system. A lot of my time was spent to get to that stage. Mainly because I was using parts not designed to work together. After that stage, you are in a position to try your experiments.

I have not yet been able to get resonance on a alternator by itself. Think because the inductance is too small. It would take a huge amount of caps to find resonance at say 170 Hz. So, you have to add inductance coils.

An RC motor can spin much higher than my alternators. Maybe you would be in the 400 Hz range? This would reduce the amount of caps needed for semi resonant state. Also, I don't know how much spike return you can collect before it affects the motor or resonance state? This is where your experiments come in.

Chris
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  #366  
Old 01-07-2015, 08:03 PM
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hi tishatang.so far i put 1 winding across 2 opposite stator poles.about 200-240 turns of 34 awg.i see about 240hz unloaded.with 7 cycles/revolution it's only about 2000 rpm.have seen 393 hz with the circuit in post 390 at 13.2v.it was torquey too.the inductance function on my dmm stopped working a while ago,but with that amount of turns it should have some.with a bifilar wind of the same wire and quantity the dcr should drop 3 quarters parallel connected.not sure how inductance would compare.presumably it will go faster driven on the bifilar winding.the bigger rc motors have high power density for there size.when there is a prop in front there is plenty of air cooling and the runs are generally short.long runs on a bench would call for derating the power handling.
i read your thread.nice work.i haven't been able to play or download any videos off there unfortunately.i downloaded the 135 page pdf on there.that looks like a very informative read.
your right.you probably can't have much resonance and spike recovery at the same time,presumably they would inhibit if not cancel each other.also your 3 phase controller function might be affected by the recovery scheme.
like you,without a scope it's a lot of guesswork, head scratching and trial and error, but it's good clean fun.
cheers
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Last edited by voltan; 01-09-2015 at 10:55 PM.
  #367  
Old 01-07-2015, 09:18 PM
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Hello All,

I have been working on an idea for a few weeks now. It came to me after watching the Tesla Switch DvD. So I am going to share it with the group.

My 3 battery setup the first part of the BFED is also going to be my pulse controller for the pulse motor.

With each pulse of the motor my batteries will pulse switching on and off with high tight spikes in a logical sync with the motor to keep the RPMs constant. I feel with this setup the run times will be huge.

I know this works and anyone can test it with just a few parts and a function generator. It is very cool to watch even an unmodified razor scooter motor run while using almost nothing from the system. With better winding I have no doubt in my mind with this setup you are getting more energy out then in.

So to recap I have put this on the bench and tested it. You are taking the 3 battery system adding a pulse generator to the system to pulse the batteries and also the motor.

Please ask if you have any questions.



-Altrez
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  #368  
Old 01-08-2015, 01:04 AM
Tishatang Tishatang is offline
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@voltan
Going by your description, it looks like you have added 200+ turns of fine wire on top of two orig windings of RC motor? If so, be careful because you have created a rotary transformer! RC motors have small number of turns, maybe less than 20? So, if the motor is being run on say 12 volts, the added coils are like the secondary of a step up transformer. You might have over about 150 volts on the ends of those added windings?

Also, if you are planning on using these windings as input to your motor, it wont work if it is a brushless 3 phase motor. In this case you need three poles wound, each pole being 120 degrees from each other.

With what you have, you can experiment capturing the spike and observing effect on motor. Just watch out for possible high voltage as explained above.

Chris
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  #369  
Old 01-08-2015, 01:22 AM
Tishatang Tishatang is offline
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Hi altrez,
Good work. Fresh look at things can lead new frontiers.

About a year ago I hooked up the 3 battery system to de-sulphate some batteries. It was easier than trying to build bedini style pulse motor.

I was using a bench meter to check voltages and for some reason I pushed the button to switch to Hz. I was surprised to see a reading in the low KHz range. I assumed it was the switch rate of the small DC motor brushes? Later, I switched in a diff battery to be re conditioned. I checked the Hz and was surprised, it was different. So, I assume this low KHz rate is related to the crystalline structure of the battery.

I recommend you check your system and see if you also find a natural resonance going on. If so, try and use that freq, or a harmonic of it, for your pulse input. It stands to reason, it might produce better results?
Hope this helps.

Chris
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  #370  
Old 01-08-2015, 01:23 AM
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Cooking

altrez,
I think you will be really pleased with what Matt lays out concerning the razor scooter motor once folks have wound it up and watched it run. I know he doesn't want to show too much too fast, but you are definitely walking down the right path, although we might be running parallel. I know Matt is out in the cold fighting the weather to keep his crop from freezing, so he won't be here much for a couple days!

Dave
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Last edited by Turion; 01-08-2015 at 01:49 AM.
  #371  
Old 01-08-2015, 01:29 AM
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hi tishatang.to clarify,i stripped all the factory windings off. first i tried awg 29,but the dcr was .4 and i couldn't supply enough current and things got hot quickly.there were a couple of runs at 18v(ozito battery pack instead of unregulated multi voltage 200ma plugpack),when it started to speed up after 20-30 seconds,and went a bit feral.i shut it down because the transistor was past the hot stage.that was with just the tip122 switching,hfe of 1000,rated 5 amps with a large heatsink.i put it down to thermal runaway.maybe the timing was lousy until t1 got really hot and that improved the timing or something like that.then i changed to 8.4 ohms dcr after post 387.
bifilar 34 will be about 2 ohms paralleled.that might be a better balance of low resistance and sustainability.less resistance,more resonance,in a tank circuit.more current out of resonance,less current in resonance,through a tank circuit.after reading all 135 pages,(except for the last bit!), in the pdf tagged in your thread, i'm a bit dizzy, but better for it.now i'm excited too.it has my endorsement as recommended reading.amongst some lofty concepts there are some real gems of insight into resonance and how and when to tap it.definitely something for everyone who builds.
http://panacea-bocaf.org/files/Advan...evelopment.pdf
i drive the rewound rc motor using 1 or 2 mini isolation transformers that sense bemf off the same winding being driven,and switch 1 or 2 transistors.all my notes on it are in posts 382, 387, 390 and 394 if your interested.
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Last edited by voltan; 01-09-2015 at 09:35 PM.
  #372  
Old 01-10-2015, 04:25 AM
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progress and question

Hello to All,
I rewound the my1016 per Matt's instructions and connected it as a generator to the shaft of a stock my1016. Used 2x 50 watt 12vdc bulbs as load on battery #3. The stock motor connected to terminals of #3 and #1 as the basic setup Dave showed. The modified motor leads connected to a fwbr the to battery #2.

Ok that was the basic setup and it did start charging #1 and #2 for the first time ever so I made a video with my cell phone. Was the rewound motor to be used as generator or drive motor? Or both?

I then did something wrong. I turned it off, connected the conventional car battery charger to each LA battery to top off their charge. Started the testing again and the batteries started discharging instead of charging. My thought is this: the long run of the system charged the batteries with a radiant/aetheric charge, then the conventional charger took away that radiant energy??
Am I chasing the wrong squirrel up the wrong tree?

Confused and curious,
wantomake
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  #373  
Old 01-10-2015, 05:47 AM
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One of the keys to the 3BGS was ALWAYS balancing the load on the motor with the load on battery 3.

Sounds like you hit the nail on the head with your setup. And YES...going back and forth between standard charge and radiant can mess everything up.

As I understand it, you used Matt's rewound motor as the GEN and a stock motor as the drive motor. You connected the output of the gen to battery 2, which is the one that usually loses charge, and had loads on battery 3. The only question I have is the same as Matt's...was batt 3 a good battery or a bad one.

Thanks for the post. Matt has been looking at the best possible winding configuration for the MY1016 as a generator, and this isn't it (I don't think) so you my get even better results when you flip the two motor positions. Worth a try. But if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Dave
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  #374  
Old 01-10-2015, 05:55 AM
Tishatang Tishatang is offline
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Hi Voltan

Yes lots of good info in that 135 page pdf. Also, I don't remember if I posted this doc. This doc referenced a lot in my research. This is good summary of var techniques OU and Radiant Energy with additional links within it. Only 66 pages this time.

http://panacea-bocaf.org/files/RE-OU-v6_1.pdf

Most all the RotoVerter stuff applies to my rig. My problem is the alternator coils are very small inductance at .2mH. Have yet to get any parallel resonance. My problem is time and energy. Last 3 days repairing shed roof damaged in storm.

Chris
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  #375  
Old 01-10-2015, 02:13 PM
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quick answer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
What did you use for a generator? Was the third battery a dead battery or a good battery?

Matt
The generator is the larger version 36 volt my1016 rewound with trifilar 24 awg wire and coupled to a 24 volt stock my1016.

Battery #3 is a good one but has a low voltage of 10 volts +-.

Yes I did switch the two to see the difference on amp draw, but the stock didn't generate but 7.8 volts of dc. During the time of the charging and testing different arrangements the original setup was lost.

Also I have a pwm but don't want to use it. I smoked the last one by using it on this 3BGS. Maybe connected it wrong or something.

Thanks and any advice is welcome. Matt hope you got the harvest in.
wantomake
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  #376  
Old 01-10-2015, 03:48 PM
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Rpm ????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
How fast does your motor go? rewound that is...

Matt
Matt,
Sorry about the crops, yes this cold keeps me out of my shop. It's just tin and wood with no heat. Despite numb hands and feet the 3BGS bug bite is a driving force.

Will get the rpm's for the modified motor soon. The higher rpm produces much higher voltage and amperage. A serial wound version generator sounds interesting. Use same design as yours or conventional generator winding? Which is what the stock motor coupled to it is. And produces low voltage.

Thanks Matt almost above freezing outside, shop time
wantomake
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  #377  
Old 01-10-2015, 11:04 PM
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What Matt is talking about here, if you don't know, is that the end caps (one of which contains the brushes) that go on the motor case have a little raised tab that fits into a notch on the motor case to make sure the brushes are aligned (centered) on the magnets, so that the coils get power when they are over the magnets. By grinding off these tabs you can rotate the end cap slightly in either direction until the bolt going all the way through the case hits against the magnet. I would advise that you mark both the end cap and the case with a permanent marker so you know where the center point SHOULD line up before grinding the tab off. Otherwise you will never know if it is "holding" the new alignment you set when you move it off center a few degrees. Once you get it right where you want it, mark it with a different color permanent marker. Hope that makes sense

Dave
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  #378  
Old 01-11-2015, 01:40 PM
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Rpm

Dave and Matt,
Yes the tabs on this motor are removed already, so will do as you said.

The rpm on mod motor is 2700 with it straight connected to 24 volts no load. With the two motors coupled together 1300~1400 rpm as they charge battery #1.

As of last night still can't find that sweet spot again. Will connect #1 and #2 to charge with Imhotep radiant charger I have.

wantomake
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  #379  
Old 01-11-2015, 05:18 PM
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Reversing Polarity

A while back, when I was having the same kind of results you are having...the charging of all three batteries with nothing but a stock motor and loads on battery 3, I quickly disconnected everything and checked the polarity of battery 3. It had reversed.

Every time since that I have seen the charging of all batteries at once I have checked that polarity and battery 3 is always reversed.

You will get good results until it flips BACK and then the event ends. If you have read my account of the first time this ever happened to me in the first post of the 3BGS thread, you will see that the battery I had on that day seemed capable of flipping polarity back and forth because it would not hold a charge.

I have since been told that you can get a single battery to put out power without limit by reversing its polarity ...running it down, then using a generator to hit the poles with spikes that will reverse its polarity. Once the polarity is reversed it becomes a never ending battery. I have tried to replicate this but have never been successful. The individual who told me this claims to have been able to reverse a battery both electrically and magnetically to get it to do this.

Dave
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  #380  
Old 01-11-2015, 08:17 PM
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reversing polarity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
A while back, when I was having the same kind of results you are having...the charging of all three batteries with nothing but a stock motor and loads on battery 3, I quickly disconnected everything and checked the polarity of battery 3. It had reversed.

Every time since that I have seen the charging of all batteries at once I have checked that polarity and battery 3 is always reversed.

You will get good results until it flips BACK and then the event ends. If you have read my account of the first time this ever happened to me in the first post of the 3BGS thread, you will see that the battery I had on that day seemed capable of flipping polarity back and forth because it would not hold a charge.

I have since been told that you can get a single battery to put out power without limit by reversing its polarity ...running it down, then using a generator to hit the poles with spikes that will reverse its polarity. Once the polarity is reversed it becomes a never ending battery. I have tried to replicate this but have never been successful. The individual who told me this claims to have been able to reverse a battery both electrically and magnetically to get it to do this.



Dave
Dave,
The flipping polarity is a strange explanation, but something is causing a charge with this setup. That does explain the reason for a bad battery. If someone could know how to reverse a battery bank, then the sky is the limit. So "hitting the poles with spikes from a generator " is it referring to the frequency(???) of the battery or what needs to be matched to get the reversal of polarity.

The sad truth is I couldn't get a bad battery to flip polarity(but just once) is why I stopped testing this setup. Nor could get the system to self charge until now. But as posted earlier messed up using car charger.

Very interesting,
wantomake
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  #381  
Old 01-11-2015, 09:15 PM
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Flipping polarity

According to this individual, he was connecting positive on the generator to negative on the battery, to induce a polarity flip. But first he ran the battery all the way down by hooking lights to it and letting it sit. I never got this to work, but I always used a MOTOR as my generator and never had a real generator to try and use.

David
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  #382  
Old 01-11-2015, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
According to this individual, he was connecting positive on the generator to negative on the battery, to induce a polarity flip. But first he ran the battery all the way down by hooking lights to it and letting it sit. I never got this to work, but I always used a MOTOR as my generator and never had a real generator to try and use.

David
Hi Dave,

Do you have problems flipping battery polarity? Or can you do it at will? Did your whole battery reverse polarity or just a few cells?

The reason I ask I have single cell ALCAD 5.5's and a year or two ago I was trying to see how low I could take the front end battery bank while running the Bedini SG, when the voltage got very low some of the cells flipped polarity and were receiving a charge reverse polarity and they were boiling... I was not aware this had happend... But I heard a few of the batteries boiling away and checked the voltages on the cells and I saw the pole flip. Only three out of 8 flipped. I figured this was nothing too special going on as this can happen to any battery when discharging it that low. I assumed the SG was charging the reversed cells as they were boiling. That was the extent of my experimentation on this... Although I thought about it from time to time thereafter.

Any more detailed thoughts you are willing to share about what you found when your battery or batteries ran for a extremely long time... Would be appreciated.

-Dave Wing
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Last edited by jettis; 01-11-2015 at 11:34 PM.
  #383  
Old 01-11-2015, 11:56 PM
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I can flip the polarity of a battery at will simply by discharging it and connecting it to a motor. It just doesn't seem to perform as was indicated it would.

WHENEVER it flips polarity while running the 3BGS setup, you can get a long run, and loading battery 3 down is the way you keep it from flipping back for a while. What you have to understand, is that you MUST use resistive loads because they have to run without regard to polarity of the battery. And there will STILL come a point when the battery will flip back and you are done. If we ever figure out how to stop it from flipping back, it is a done deal. This flipping of polarity is why folks (including me) have burnt up inverters connected to battery 3. Suddenly the polarity of the battery flips direction and the inverter doesn't like that much.

My original setup when I first hooked it up, did nothing for 15 minutes. The voltage on battery 3 read 24 volts. It slowly went down to 18 volts. At that point the DC motor came on and would start to run. The voltage on battery 3 continued to drop down to around 9 volts. At that point the motor would shut off, the voltage would jump back to 24 volts, and the process would repeat.

In over 8 years of working on the 3BGS I have NEVER had a setup where that sequence of events has occurred again. In every setup I have had since, the voltage will drop to about 12 volts and stabilize. It will NEVER go down to 9 volts and the motor shut down. There was some condition of the original battery 3 that allowed this to happen, and that is what makes all the difference. That original setup ran, producing power, for nearly two months before I took it apart to take to California, and then I was never able to get it to work like that again. I didn't realize how important the individual pieces I had were, and assumed it was just the circuit itself. I was wrong.

Dave
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  #384  
Old 01-12-2015, 01:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
I can flip the polarity of a battery at will simply by discharging it and connecting it to a motor. It just doesn't seem to perform as was indicated it would.

WHENEVER it flips polarity while running the 3BGS setup, you can get a long run, and loading battery 3 down is the way you keep it from flipping back for a while. What you have to understand, is that you MUST use resistive loads because they have to run without regard to polarity of the battery. And there will STILL come a point when the battery will flip back and you are done. If we ever figure out how to stop it from flipping back, it is a done deal. This flipping of polarity is why folks (including me) have burnt up inverters connected to battery 3. Suddenly the polarity of the battery flips direction and the inverter doesn't like that much.

My original setup when I first hooked it up, did nothing for 15 minutes. The voltage on battery 3 read 24 volts. It slowly went down to 18 volts. At that point the DC motor came on and would start to run. The voltage on battery 3 continued to drop down to around 9 volts. At that point the motor would shut off, the voltage would jump back to 24 volts, and the process would repeat.

In over 8 years of working on the 3BGS I have NEVER had a setup where that sequence of events has occurred again. In every setup I have had since, the voltage will drop to about 12 volts and stabilize. It will NEVER go down to 9 volts and the motor shut down. There was some condition of the original battery 3 that allowed this to happen, and that is what makes all the difference. That original setup ran, producing power, for nearly two months before I took it apart to take to California, and then I was never able to get it to work like that again. I didn't realize how important the individual pieces I had were, and assumed it was just the circuit itself. I was wrong.

Dave
Dave thanks for the reply. When you flip polarity of the battery is every cell flipped?

I will try some experimentation and familiarize myself with taking a load from the 3rd battery with the polarity reversed... I am curious about doing the tests.

-Dave Wing
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Last edited by jettis; 01-12-2015 at 01:56 AM.
  #385  
Old 01-12-2015, 05:03 AM
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Flipping polarity

I never measured the individual cells, so I can't give you an answer to that.I simply put my meter on the battery and saw that it was reading - voltage when connected correctly.

Dave
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  #386  
Old 01-12-2015, 08:31 AM
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hi all.doing a bit of reading lately has renewed my interest in regauging EM cores in a motor.so i tried a dual polarity power supply for a bit of push-pull.then i noticed that i could loop the spikes back to source,(to the other big cap from the 1 that just switched off).it just fell into place.here's a way to loop with a mono winding.i guess the internal diode in fets in regular push-pull circuits does the same thing when switching inductors,which can be 2 coils with a center tap,like the pic in post 432,or a motor winding. i guess sometimes it get's wasted.at any switch-off point the other transistor is always off as there's a short interval between events.this is on the rc motor 1 phase ac. it runs pretty smooth and quiet and has decent torque for 2 coils in a motor with room for 12.
i'm thinkin, with more volts or less turns, more speed/shorter pulses the spike recovery should refund a progressively higher % of input.after measuring the returns it looks like the switch-offs could be sharper,maybe earlier. in a blocking osc. the feedback winding speeds up the switching on and off.that might be what's missing in this setup.i guess this is where fets and drivers go better.this circuit is a work in progress.will see what i can do with it.
cheers.
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Last edited by voltan; 01-15-2015 at 08:07 AM.
  #387  
Old 01-12-2015, 04:04 PM
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good verses bad

Hello to All,
Just a thought. Per my post 441 and 445, battery #3 was a good one. (Yes I did video it with cell phone and will post on YouTube). But I was still getting a charge after the initial drop at start up. Cause I know there is a drop then voltage will rise and you think you found it. But I waited until all settled down. So can this special event happen with good or bad batteries at position #3 ?? If this had happened more than once I would know.

This 3BGS bug got me in the middle of winter,
wantomake
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  #388  
Old 01-12-2015, 05:37 PM
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wantomake,
It can happen with a good battery. It can happen with a bad battery. I have seen both. It is more LIKELY to happen with a bad battery because you have a greater potential difference and a better opportunity for battery 3 to flip polarity. That's why I harped on the bad battery in the 3BGS thread. I wanted as many people as possible to see what I was seeing. If nobody sees it, then nobody believes you. When I first posted this on Overunity.com eight years ago, NOBODY who replicated saw it so everyone assumed I was a fraud, although only four or five people bothered to replicate, some tried with several batteries. It was pretty frustrating for me to have to keep defending myself, and eventually I gave up.

If you did NOT have battery 3 flip polarity, then you may be seeing something different.

When John B first posted this circuit he was talking about using resistive loads as the load on the circuit. It becomes a whole other animal when you use a brushed DC motor as the load. It ALSO adds a new dimension when you use a brushed DC motor as your load on battery 3.

I believe the time I got runaway charging and my primaries suddenly went up to 18 volts was because the motor attached to battery 3 as a load was in some kind of resonance with the motor used as a load on the circuit (a universal motor). It scared me and I ran out of the room. I was afraid the batteries were going to explode. This was when I was first getting started and didn't know anything about batteries at all.

With changes, like a pulsed DC motor, there are all kinds of opportunities for increased charging, resonance, polarity flipping, and who knows what else, to affect the performance of the circuit.

The 3BGS bug can be very addicting. I've been on this ride for eight years now and have no intention of getting off soon. I usually have one or two setups running and am always trying new things.

BUT, as I hope folks are beginning to see... Having a motor that works better than an off the shelf motor...not PERFECT, but better...Having the 3 battery setup contribute its ability to extend run times (or some other variation of the Tesla switch) having a generator that runs with reduced lenz or lenz free, and a big flywheel....put it all together and you will have a working unit. It will be BASIC, and all parts can use improvement, but it WILL work.

Dave
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  #389  
Old 01-12-2015, 05:49 PM
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wantomake wantomake is offline
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dc motor as load

Dave,
Thanks, I've not tried a brushed dc motor as load on #3. Will try anything as a load.

Time to feed the bug,
wantomake
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  #390  
Old 01-12-2015, 06:14 PM
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Turion Turion is online now
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clarification

I should mention that the universal motor I had running on battery three was my shop vac, plugged into an inverter. And remember what I said about inverters. When the polarity flips you will probably let the smoke out of one if it is attached.
Dave
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