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  #31  
Old 05-21-2015, 04:11 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Originally Posted by citfta View Post
Hi guys,

Been a very busy day so just now got back to the computer. Shylo I like what you did with that rotor. Can you post a picture of the commutator end. I am trying to figure out the best way to connect those coils to the commutator. I have some ideas but I would like to see what you have done if you don't mind.

Since I will be getting 3 of the scooter motors to play with I want to wind one of them like you have done shylo and wind one like mbrownn shows in his drawings. Then maybe that will help me understand better how the different kinds of winds might affect the performance. My motors are supposed to be in Saturday so maybe I can get started soon on trying out some of these ideas.

Mbrownn would you like to call your motor the mbrownn motor? That would work for me. Of course if there are other people that have seriously been working on this same idea they might have a better idea what to call it.

Carroll
Try to keep this thread specifically about this motor to avoid confusion

Im not keen on that name, im not egocentric like that. I thought about Assymetric Motor Generator but that's AMG which has been patented I suppose Micks Motor Generator or MMG is a compromise that would work for now, a bit like John Bedini's SSG

What I would do is build the motor as I instructed using magnets as the powered field coils, a simple wound armature, and place recovery brushes to feed a capacitor across the input. With a pony brake measuring power on the motor shaft at different speeds and a load such as a bulb on the electrical side, we can calculate the total output and find the optimum voltage and speed to run it. Then we can compare that with the input. I would expect it to be in excess of 70% efficient which is quite good. Above 80% is very good, above 90% and we will find people are patenting it out from under our feet.
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  #32  
Old 05-21-2015, 12:00 PM
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shylo,

If you have any more information or pictures about the rotor you posted a picture of please post that information in my thread about open discussions so we don't cause confusion in this thread. I agree with mbrownn we don't need for this thread to wander off in a lot of other directions like some of them do. But I am interested in learning more about how you connected those coils to the commutator.

Thanks,
Carroll

PS: To mbrownn: I like the MMG. Sounds good to me.
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Last edited by citfta; 05-21-2015 at 12:01 PM. Reason: Added PS
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  #33  
Old 05-21-2015, 01:55 PM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Originally Posted by citfta View Post
shylo,

If you have any more information or pictures about the rotor you posted a picture of please post that information in my thread about open discussions so we don't cause confusion in this thread. I agree with mbrownn we don't need for this thread to wander off in a lot of other directions like some of them do. But I am interested in learning more about how you connected those coils to the commutator.

Thanks,
Carroll

PS: To mbrownn: I like the MMG. Sounds good to me.
Its the simplest winding possible. Starting with the armature in front of you and the output shaft facing you, and an armature slot at the 12 0'clock position. Solder one end of the wire on a commutator segment at the 9 o'clock position. Run the wire to the slot at the 12 o'clock position and wind the wire through that slot, past the armature shaft and return down the slot at the 6 o'clock position. Continue winding loops passing either side of the armature shaft until the slots are full, and then pass the wire to the commutator segment at the 3 o'clock position. Rotate the armature until the next slot is at the 12 0'clock position and repeat. Continue this process until all slots are filled.

On my armature I had double the number of commutator segments as armature slots. This makes the sweep angle smaller. I found that if it had the same number of commutator segments as armature slots the sweep angle is too big.

The reason for connecting the segments at 90 degrees to the coil is so that the wires are close the the armature and do not get thrown out too far when the armature is spinning. Its as simple as that, but I am sure you know removing the old armature windings can be a challenge.

Obviously we are separating the two halves of the armature into two poles, this is why it is best to have an even number of armature slots.
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  #34  
Old 05-22-2015, 07:55 AM
shylo shylo is offline
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Hi Mbrown, I understand your wind now thanks, So you only energize 2 field coils at a time for rotation, the other 2 for generation in the armature?
Am I even close?
Thanks artv
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  #35  
Old 05-22-2015, 10:46 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Originally Posted by shylo View Post
Hi Mbrown, I understand your wind now thanks, So you only energize 2 field coils at a time for rotation, the other 2 for generation in the armature?
Am I even close?
Thanks artv
yes.

Two field coils and the armature are all powered simultaneously and in attraction, If the motor had not had the case slotted the armature would be magnetically held in position with no rotation. Because the case has been slotted, it forces the flux to return through the shoes of the generator coils. As the powered coil on the armature sweeps the generator shoe, the flux also sweeps the shoe. This results in generation in the coil mounted on that shoe. Its all very simple, in fact the generation side of it is absolutely standard.

It is only because the powered field coils have been displaced by 90 degrees and the armature simplified, that BEMF is reduced in these field coils.
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  #36  
Old 05-23-2015, 08:51 AM
shylo shylo is offline
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The case is slotted, Did you cut right through the case or just put a groove in it? I have an old 16 slot armature(stripped) with 16 comm sections which has 2 stator magnets. I already have it cut in half, I used different armatures in the 2 halves so I could vary each half independently.
Would it be a possible candidate, but I'm sure the armature would need a different wind pattern?
artv
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  #37  
Old 05-23-2015, 01:43 PM
Hiwater Hiwater is online now
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Hi Mbrownn. A question, does it matter which way the armature is wound. From the 9

oclock comm bar. Starting on top or starting on the bottom. Would be cw or ccw. All the windings go the same direction I would assume.
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  #38  
Old 05-23-2015, 03:27 PM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Originally Posted by Hiwater View Post
Hi Mbrownn. A question, does it matter which way the armature is wound. From the 9

oclock comm bar. Starting on top or starting on the bottom. Would be cw or ccw. All the windings go the same direction I would assume.
I don't think it would make a difference as long as you get the polarity right when you connect it up. After half a turn of the armature it will have reversed anyway.

good to see you back
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  #39  
Old 05-23-2015, 03:37 PM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Originally Posted by shylo View Post
The case is slotted, Did you cut right through the case or just put a groove in it? I have an old 16 slot armature(stripped) with 16 comm sections which has 2 stator magnets. I already have it cut in half, I used different armatures in the 2 halves so I could vary each half independently.
Would it be a possible candidate, but I'm sure the armature would need a different wind pattern?
artv
Yes, slotting the case is to break the magnetic circuit, even leaving 10mm at either end allows leakage in the magnetic circuit as shown in the simulation.

I think a standard armature will work when you use magnets as the field coils as no BEMF is created in a magnet, but the magnet will cause generated current in the armature (BEMF) so expect reduced performance. This does not happen with a simple armature.

As I said I havenít tried it with magnets myself but I am interested in how it performs.
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  #40  
Old 06-09-2015, 12:26 AM
shylo shylo is offline
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Hi Mbrown, I was testing just half the magnet can since I cut it in half.
I was drawing 3-4 amps ,brushes were sparking bad.
Does a single drive coil of your design push and pull at the same time?
I didn't wind 12 to 6, I wound 4 coils ,1 around each pole face(shoe?) seperated by 90deg.
artv
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  #41  
Old 06-09-2015, 12:59 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Originally Posted by shylo View Post
Hi Mbrown, I was testing just half the magnet can since I cut it in half.
I was drawing 3-4 amps ,brushes were sparking bad.
Does a single drive coil of your design push and pull at the same time?
I didn't wind 12 to 6, I wound 4 coils ,1 around each pole face(shoe?) seperated by 90deg.
artv
Now you see the need for the recovery brushes, there is a good amount of energy to be recovered, which can be used to reduce your input by feeding it to a capacitor across the source.

As the setup is in attraction, it is always pull. This keeps the flux within the iron, aiding generation.
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  #42  
Old 06-09-2015, 11:57 AM
shylo shylo is offline
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Not sure if you already stated, but where are your collector brushes located in relation to your input brushes?
Also what is the location of the drive coil ,in relation to the field winding, when the drive coil is powered?
Thanks artv
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  #43  
Old 06-10-2015, 03:02 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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The collector brushes are 1 segment away from the power brushes, just as the power brush is about to leave the commutator segment, the recovery brush makes contact. If the contact is a little late you will see more arcing, if its early motor performance drops off.

If you are using carbon brushes you can ignore this and the next paragraph, as there is little you can do about it. In this instant, we will in fact have 3 armature coils connected to the power. The power brushes have overcome the inductance and are flowing full current in the coil that is about to disconnect. on the segment after this, the current is already ramping up and possibly at full current. The preceding segment will have discharged its inductive kickback, but will be resisting current flow due to its inductance. We also have transformer interactions taking place between the powered coils and unpowered coils, but our diode on the recovery will prevent any current flowing. Most people donít analyse what a commutator is doing and there are very complex things happening there.

As I said earlier in the thread, I would be interested in brushes similar to the ones on the photograph because these can be much narrower than carbon ones and so reduce these interactions further. I did make an attempt at making some using razor blades but that is a whole story in itself.

What do you mean by drive coil?

If you mean armature coil it will be similar to what is shown in the simulation.
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  #44  
Old 06-10-2015, 12:41 PM
shylo shylo is offline
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MDa...ature=youtu.be

Hi Mbrown, here is what I have just curious why the amp draw goes down when connecting the transformer and charging cap bank?
artv
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  #45  
Old 06-10-2015, 02:41 PM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Originally Posted by shylo View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MDa...ature=youtu.be

Hi Mbrown, here is what I have just curious why the amp draw goes down when connecting the transformer and charging cap bank?
artv
Your armature does not appear to be wound anything like mine http://www.energeticforum.com/attach...r-img_0028-jpg Are you winding each armature coil around one T section?

Is the transformer in series with the battery and motor?

How far around the armature does the magnet go, it looks like its about 120 degrees?

Sorry, I cant make out what is happening from your video, so I cant comment without more information.
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  #46  
Old 06-11-2015, 02:32 AM
shylo shylo is offline
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Yes, Yes and it's more like 160 degrees .
Shouldn't charging the caps cause more of a current draw?
artv
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  #47  
Old 06-11-2015, 03:39 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Originally Posted by shylo View Post
Yes, Yes and it's more like 160 degrees .
Shouldn't charging the caps cause more of a current draw?
artv
As it is not the motor I have described here i would prefer to discuss it on the Open discussion thread
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  #48  
Old 06-12-2015, 10:13 AM
shylo shylo is offline
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Hi Mbrownn, In your sim you show the armature coil dead center of the field winding, since you are using attraction only I can`t understand how you would get rotation. Or are you slightly off center.
For some reason my question mark key isn``t working neither is my appostraphe (sp)
artv
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  #49  
Old 06-12-2015, 11:13 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Originally Posted by shylo View Post
Hi Mbrownn, In your sim you show the armature coil dead center of the field winding, since you are using attraction only I can`t understand how you would get rotation. Or are you slightly off center.
For some reason my question mark key isn``t working neither is my appostraphe (sp)
artv
Sounds like you got coffee in the keyboard

In truth the armature coil sweeps the generator shoe, rotating towards the powered field coil. When the armature coil switches on, the flux is forced to one side pushing the armature round. Using the image I link to, the armature coil switches on at the 1 o'clock position and remains on as the armature rotates anticlockwise to the 11 o'clock position.
http://www.energeticforum.com/attach...-coilsetup-jpg
As the right hand side of the armature is in attraction with the shoe at the 12 o'clock position, It forces the armature to rotate anticlockwise. The resultant flux sweeps across the shoe at the 12 o'clock position inducing a current in the coil wrapped around it.

This is a generator that creates torque. The powered field coil, or magnet if you chose to use one, exerts no torque on the armature. The flux remains well spaced and moves very little in comparison to what is happening at the generator coil, thus little BEMF is generated in the powered field coil.

Putting it another way, when we switch on our powered field coil, imagine the face of that shoe to be north. This forces the face of the generator to be south. The armature will not turn until we switch on the armature coil. When we do, the part of the armature closest to the powered field coil is south and in attraction. The part furthest away to to the powered field coil is north and is attracted to the south pole we created at the generator pole. As the coil on the armature is not half way between the north and south poles, the attraction will pull it until it is.
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  #50  
Old 06-12-2015, 09:14 PM
shylo shylo is offline
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So as soon as you load a gen coil or motor coil, How long before the opposite pole shows up?
It's working again.Lol?
If I can exit the magnetic field of the PM before the counter shows up, Your design the counter shows up and you still have to travel ~30% before getting away from the drag (opposite poles attract). That's if I have it right.
artv
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  #51  
Old 06-13-2015, 04:10 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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The moment a current flows in a coil a magnetic field builds up. In the case of my device we already have a magnetic field in the generator coil so the new field caused by the generated current appears to oppose it. Obviously the original field cannot have gone away or the generation would cease.

The question remains, does the new field exist in the same space or does it only weaken the existing field? I have no idea.

The only way you can move a wire through a magnetic field without causing drag from Lenz, is to not allow the current to flow. I donít make the rules, its just how it is. So the methods of preventing this are to open circuit the coil or oppose the induced current.

I open circuit the coils as they pass the motor field coil, thus preventing BEMF in them. Your method is to make the armature coils so narrow that the BEMF opposes itself within them, making the BEMF self cancelling.

Yes drag and BEMF occur in my armature but only where generation is occurring. As I have explained before, the motoring force also occurs here. In your device you have self cancelling BEMF and motoring, but no generation. Interestingly enough, I believe both methods could be combined and thatís why in interested in what you are doing.

If you use a Stator setup such as mine and an armature such as yours, we could get it to work as long as the only coil on the armature that was energised is the one by the generator coil. You will need to narrow your field coil or magnet to less than 90 degrees. It is possible. Armatures with many segments would work best.

It should work with the stator used in the "interesting motor" thread and with some work we could do it with a "lockridge" type stator. Only building it will prove it.

The sweep angle is set by the width of the generator shoe, and with your armature it will be half of what it is with mine. This means you will need many, maybe 20+ segments on your armature to get the correct sweep angle. The sweep angle (my term) is the angle that the armature rotates under power across the shoe. Your sweep angle will be half of my design because when your armature reaches the middle of the generator shoe, the torque becomes zero. Going past the middle will reverse the torque.

Hope you understand what I am saying
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  #52  
Old 06-13-2015, 11:10 PM
shylo shylo is offline
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That's what I'm wondering, If the coil I'm putting power into produces a north pole facing a north pole of a pm, it will cause repulsion .When does the south pole show up , when the power is disconnected?
artv
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  #53  
Old 06-14-2015, 04:15 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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You need to set it up in attraction. If our field winding is producing a North and your narrow coil is producing a north, the rest of the armature has to be south, so almost any point on the armature is south. The generator shoe is also south, so the narrow north on the armature will be attracted to it. Replacing the field coil with a magnet would also work the same way.

I know it is normal to set a motor up in repulsion but try attraction and place your armature coil to switch on at the 1 o'clock position and switch off at the 12 o'clock position as per my drawing.
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Old 06-14-2015, 11:01 PM
shylo shylo is offline
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Well I was having no luck with that wind , everything was too hot.
I rewound as per your description, 12 to 6 and 3 to 9, just for testing.
Lower amp draw, less heat and more speed was the result.
I added some collector brushes, but they are at 90deg. to the input brushes.
So the collector is a complete comm section away from the input.(no sipping from the supply) Since it is 16 comm sections.
The output from the collectors , after going through the bridge was 7vdc.
I tested several different magnet arrangements on the open side of the armature, What I found interesting is that the base off of the transformer ,I was using earlier , gave the same result as the other half of the magnet can. Just the magnetic field influence of the half can underneath.
I'm going to fill the rest of the armature up and see what happens.
artv
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  #55  
Old 06-15-2015, 04:56 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Originally Posted by shylo View Post
Well I was having no luck with that wind , everything was too hot.
I rewound as per your description, 12 to 6 and 3 to 9, just for testing.
Lower amp draw, less heat and more speed was the result.
I added some collector brushes, but they are at 90deg. to the input brushes.
So the collector is a complete comm section away from the input.(no sipping from the supply) Since it is 16 comm sections.
The output from the collectors , after going through the bridge was 7vdc.
I tested several different magnet arrangements on the open side of the armature, What I found interesting is that the base off of the transformer ,I was using earlier , gave the same result as the other half of the magnet can. Just the magnetic field influence of the half can underneath.
I'm going to fill the rest of the armature up and see what happens.
artv
The problem with collecting power from the second coil UFO style is that it is at 90 degrees and your output there is reduced. Trust me if you collect using the sipsip method and place the capacitor across the source, the sipsip does not occur.

Your magnetic circuit is open, on your second half so the gains will be smaller than if it were closed
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  #56  
Old 06-15-2015, 07:31 PM
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Here's a little video about the motor I picked up on eBay. Not sure it will work, as it has 41 sections on the commutator. But it does have four coils and two sets of brushes. I imagine a proper rotor with the right number of commutator sections could be machined that would fit this motor.

eBay Motor - YouTube

Dave
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  #57  
Old 06-15-2015, 09:01 PM
shylo shylo is offline
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Hi Dave , are you sure it's 41 comm sections, everything I've ever seen is always an equal number?
I think that might be part of the problem, everything is always equal ,offset it so there is an imbalance, but have at least 4 imbalances to work together.
Kinda like Matts' bouncer and the Skinner device.

I'm curious as to why , by putting laminated steel on the other half of the magnet can ,gives the same result as the opposite magnet can does?
Maybe using 2 opposite magnets in the can is a mistake?
When 2 opposite magnets are facing each other, they either repel or attract.
Using 1 magnet can, only influences a pole in the steel.
When you face a N pole of a PM at a piece of steel , what pole is it that is induced into the steel,thats facing the magnet?
Is it south because it's attracted to it?
artv
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  #58  
Old 06-15-2015, 09:24 PM
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Hi Dave , are you sure it's 41 comm sections, everything I've ever seen is always an equal number?
It looks like a nice motor. Similar in construction to automotive engine cranking motors or pump motors for truck equipments like snow plows, lift gates, etc. Those types of armatures can be wound several different ways, one of which is 4 pole 2 circuit called wave wound. This wave wound armature needs an odd number of coils and commutator segments.
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Old 06-16-2015, 12:01 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Here's a little video about the motor I picked up on eBay. Not sure it will work, as it has 41 sections on the commutator. But it does have four coils and two sets of brushes. I imagine a proper rotor with the right number of commutator sections could be machined that would fit this motor.

eBay Motor - YouTube

Dave
The case looks perfect, the brushes will need some work and I cant really see the armature clearly. 41 commutator segments means the armature cannot be rewound to make a 2 pole simple armature. whatever you do with it will always be less than ideal. Iím sure that we can get it to work but it will be unbalanced. Iím coming to the conclusion that few, if any, standard lap and wave wound armatures will perform well.
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Old 06-16-2015, 12:07 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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I'm curious as to why , by putting laminated steel on the other half of the magnet can ,gives the same result as the opposite magnet can does?
Maybe using 2 opposite magnets in the can is a mistake?
When 2 opposite magnets are facing each other, they either repel or attract.
Using 1 magnet can, only influences a pole in the steel.
When you face a N pole of a PM at a piece of steel , what pole is it that is induced into the steel,thats facing the magnet?
Is it south because it's attracted to it?
artv
If you use a single magnet to pick up iron and compare that with 2 identical magnets stacked together, you find they can only lift the same amount. The only reason they use 2 magnets in a 2 pole motor is because it it easier.

South is induced in the steel.
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