Hi everyone,

I am currently doing some research on using HHO gas in order to improve fuel economy on vehicles. I have looked at several videos on the internet, and also several plans that are available on the internet for making an HHO gas generator, including reading over the post availavle here:

( All about electrolysers, HHO, joecells ect. :) )

Currently being an automotive engineering student at minnesota state universiy, I am interested to do a small, possibly big research project on HHO technology. The problem lies with the materials that are made available on the web describing exactly how HHO generators work.

For starters, I am familiar with the electrolysis that occurs when the current tries to pass from a positive plate to the negative plate. Looking at some of the videos on the internet, I decided to experiment using a 7 plate HHO gas generator.

We configured the plates as follows (+-+-+-+)

Notice that there were no neutral plates in this configuration. We used water and a teaspoon of baking soda and ran this configuration, measured the amperes and they were way too high (105A).

We had good bubble production, but the amperes running through the circuit indicated that there was no resistance in the HHO generator, which almost wanted to act as a short between the two cables connecting it to the car battery.

Our next design, we decided to use "neutral" plates just as we saw on other documentations on the internet.

So our configuration was like so: (-nn++nn-)

This significantly reduced the current down to about 2 amps using only one tablespoon of baking soday, but the bubble production was not very impresive.

I am having a hard time trying to find good documentation on HHO generators, and exactly how to make a proper configuration. My major questions at this point are the following:

• What would be the optimal water to baking soda ratio?
• What purpose do neutral plates serve?
• How can I set up an HHO generator to have optimal "bubble" (HHO) output?
• How much spacing should be required between a negative, neutral, or positive plates?
• Where would be a good place to find stainless materials for future projects?
• Where can I find good documentation on HHO generators and building them?

I really appreciate your input on this topic.

Hi jjcobm

First there are some myths about baking soda as an electrolyte, i would start at the FAQ on this page, this guy builds boosters and tests them.

http://www.smacksboosters.110mb.com>

Ash

Thanks for that link,

As I said before, I really wasn't able to find good documentation on HHO for vehicles and that link you sent me has some really good information. I would appreciate anyone elses input for some of the other questions I previously posted though.

Ok lets see if we can hook you up....
1) Dont use baking soda Use KOH ( Potassium Hydroxide ) at least thats what I use. Also the amount needed is going to be relative to what type and size Cell you build. Generally you get your electrolyzer finished, add appropriate amount of "DISTILLED" Water, add power to your cell and slowly add small amounts of KOH to the water until you get about 10-15 amps depending on what the total amperage you want to run at. You have to be real careful here because as the solution heats it will draw more amperage that is why you want to add small amounts of KOH at a time so you dont over shoot your target final amperage. You dont want a "RUN AWAY" amperage situation to occur. You can also preheat the water for a few minutes and that way as you drop the KOH in it will be pretty close to full operating temp.

2) Some people like to have neutral plates. In my experience adding the neutral plates has lessened output of the "Booster" cells I make.

3) Well thats a GOOD question! And one that has kept us all experimenting with different Ideas.....If you come up with a design that puts out "Optimum" Gas production (Which everyone considers optimum different) you be sure to let us know. For a Booster there is no real need for any more than about 1.5 Liters a minute which is achievable with the simple Smacks Type Booster that Ash pointed you to, Plus its cheap and easy to make and is probably the design most started with in the "Booster" realm. Personally I have gotten the most gas production from the Archie Blue type and my favorite the Spiral Wassabe design. But they are pretty involved in the manufacturing....Stick with the Smacks booster for your first....Trust me!

4) Another question that varries with design type and personal preference. I generally use 1/8" on all my designs because I use standard 1/8x6x6" sheets of gasket material to cut all my spacers. These are in the plumbing department at Lowes for $1.49 here.

5) If you need sheets to cut your plates, I use Shim Stock. It is really cheap But high quality stainless. It is used by machine shops to make automotive head gaskets and such. You can find it cheap on the internet and even eBay. I bought 10 rolls on eBay a few months back for $4 a roll 1/16thx6x60". You just have to look and buy when you see a good deal. Even Napa sells it. As far as for a smacks booster all you need to do is go to Lowes or Home Depot and buy Stainless Outlet Covers with No Holes. $1.40 a piece.

6) Go here and download the whole PDF while its still available....It covers pretty much everything! Free-Energy Devices, zero-point energy, and water as fuel

Hope that helps!

http://free-energy-info.co.uk/Smack.pdf

This is a step by step to build a smacks in PDF format....

Just a quick one...

Is Sodium carbonate OK? It's easier to get it here.........

I believe you should be able to use it, others have. But KOH is the best thing to use in this case, simply because once your solution is set at the concentration you want (amp wise) you very rarely have to redo the calibration as your electrolyzer consumes your Distilled Water....The KOH remains so you just need to replenish the water up to your original level....You should also use the water out of your Bubbler occasionally to refill your cell because you will recover your KOH that managed to make it that far. Using larger diameter tubing (3/8 or 1/2) to make those runs cuts that down because you wont have so much pressure being forced through that can carry the water vapors pretty easily. Remember PRESSURE IS NOT IMPORTANT! Volume is...The vehicle will suck what it wants through the larger tubing easier....Small tubing would restrict flow and cut your actual output down.

This is who I use...They are good people! Look under soapmaking supplies, then akalis I believe>>>
Summer Bee Meadow handcrafted soaps , soapmaking supplies , how to make soap information and soap formula for beginners , soap making lye calculator , soap recipe resizer , SBM soap starter system , complete soapmaking kit , 3 oils mix

Hope that helps!

can there be more miles per gallon if we can make more HHO gas?

a normal car have one generator, which can make power output about 600-1000W. and not all of this power can be used for hho, because there are other needs for electricity, such as lamps, batt charging a.o.
- at the end we can take only 200-300W. but if using two generators - than summary power for HHO can be about <1000W in ideal conditions. this makes about 3 liters hho per minute, compared to ~1 liter per minute with one generator.

car audio enthusiasts sometimes use two generators, and also couple of batteries, to supply special unnormally loud audio systems for loudness-drag championships.

The 1.5 to 2.0 Liters per minute is good enough for UP TO a 40% incrase in mileage in MOST small and midsize vehicles. If you try to go higher with more Gas then you are getting into the realm of having to modify timing along with other pretty complicated things. So Yes you can get more mileage increase out of more HHO but at a cost. So in the spirit of keeping it simple a "Maximum" of a 40% increase should be expected.

Red: What other things would I be concerned with other than timing at say 80% HHO to 20% petrol/air mixture.

I ask because I would like to run on mostly water with a little petroleum fuel to avoid rebuilding my engines and exhaust systems.

Also been toying with the idea of using a water soluble oil to coat things some where in the system, say at shut down for the same reasons.

Hi Redmeanie,

I've been experimenting with HHO in my car for couple of months right now. You may look for thread topic "Hydrogen boost in Honda Accord by Kumaran". My cell produce good amount of gas (1.5LPM to 2.0LPM) but still the results doesn't look impresive enough. I do notice peoples result who uses around 1LPM or less getting better result than me.

On bench testing my electrolyser produce 1.89LPM (13.5V and 21A). I think small cars alternator adds more load to engine in order to produce above 20A. This becomes counter productive for small car engine I believe. Also Hydroxy has explodes and implodes properties and when too much of hydroxy enters into engine, implode properties may cause counter productive result.

Hmmm.... what to do now?

It seems to me that the geometry and function of a 2 stroke engine would lend it self to HHO use quite well possibly better than 4 strokes (for a pure water engine) anyone with experience in this area???

Kumaran,

I know about your project.....I was the one telling you how to adjust your fuel.... Did you ever get that situated?

There has to be something else wrong if you are not seeing some decent results with that much gas....

The only problem besides adding a timing retard device is that in a standard 2 cycle configuration the exhaust is on top of the piston. As the HHO explodes you get water vapor. The excess water that did not get blown out of the exhaust would accumulate around the piston causing corrosion. Also we have the issue with lubrication. without some sort of oiling system it would fail rather quickly since we dont have the oil gas mixture.

I have ran a weed eater on HHO before for short bursts, so it will work but not for long.

Red: I'm not sure about the engines you have worked with with but the ones I have seen usually open the exhaust at the bottom of the stroke.

I dont exactly know how to describe it so check this link out. Im thinking of a weed eater motor and it's just like the one used here>>>>http://science.howstuffworks.com/two-stroke2.htm<<<<
On the down stroke it compresses the fuel vapor and pushes exhaust out on the up stroke....

Okay here is a little but more "newbee" type of stuff, on it,(at the bottom)
Hydroxy Gas

Thanks for tat Infoz Redmeanie, do you mind if i put it on a web page so you doint have to type all that again

Ash

Ash, Your more than welcomed to use whatever I post on your site..... Thats what I want, is to share all the things Ive learned so far on this quest! Trust me I have allot of "wheeew that was a close one!" type of experiences while playing in the HHO Realm....