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Old 04-09-2008, 02:41 AM
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computer fan sg motor

I am currently working on basic sg motor, and wanting to eventually do the small computer fan one but cant find any details about how that one was implemented ex : what size coil, where to position it, where to put the magnets on the fan..ect ect. Is there any links to any schematics so i can see some examples of how some of put these together. any help would be appreciated. thanx
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Old 04-10-2008, 01:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by **~Imhotep~** View Post
I am currently working on basic sg motor, and wanting to eventually do the small computer fan one but cant find any details about how that one was implemented ex : what size coil, where to position it, where to put the magnets on the fan..ect ect. Is there any links to any schematics so i can see some examples of how some of put these together. any help would be appreciated. thanx

Hi Imhotep,

Here's a link that should help ya out.Good luck and have fun experimenting.

John Bedini Monopole Mechanical Oscillator Simplified School Girl SSG Presentation


-Gary
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Old 04-10-2008, 08:33 AM
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Here is Ricks diagram from the Bedini Monopole3 Forums. I suggest you also join there as others may have asked the same questions.

There are a number of variations to the theme, you can opt to tie all coils together in series and run off one transistor (this would reqire bifilar winding) or series opposite coils and use one set for trigger and the other for power, which is probably easier. Try about 500 turns of a fine gauge (30awg -34 awg?) or count turns until the core is full. Bigger fan will be easier to wind, and make sure all windings are wound the same way.

There are variations of this circuit employing a SCR and cap, but stick to the basics until you have it running. You can fabricate your own from scratch (see this vid I made for an example YouTube - pulse motor) but the fan is a good idea because everything is prefab'd and will be alot more accurate.

Last edited by ren : 07-27-2008 at 06:12 AM.
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Old 04-10-2008, 09:45 AM
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YouTube - Fan mod with SSG circuit
here is my Fan mod with Ricks circuit. I used only one transistor. Two power coils were connected in series and I used only one pole with smaller gauge wire for triggering. This leaves the fourth pole unused and you can use it as an isolated recovery coil for example
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Old 04-10-2008, 07:07 PM
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RE: Fan

There is an excellent demo of how to do this on google video..,.

Fan.wmv

Rick shows tear down, and every step.
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Old 04-11-2008, 01:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetijs View Post
YouTube - Fan mod with SSG circuit
here is my Fan mod with Ricks circuit. I used only one transistor. Two power coils were connected in series and I used only one pole with smaller gauge wire for triggering. This leaves the fourth pole unused and you can use it as an isolated recovery coil for example
Hi Jetijs, Dam that was movin fast! what input did you have on it, 24volt? i see you had a tiny 1.3aH battery on the charge?

Whilst we are all showing off our fan kits
Here is ours, i am in the middle of filming it charging TWO batteries of the same capacity as the input whilst operating the fan ATM, yup it does it! how can that be? wait and see


Dual Bedini Fan kit conept

Last edited by ashtweth : 04-11-2008 at 01:41 AM.
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Old 04-11-2008, 11:05 PM
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Well, today I tried to convert a fan so that it runs on a basic SSG setup, but this time I wanted to use all the recovered energy in a capacitor on primary side (like Peter showed in electric motor secrets thread) rather than in a charging battery. I used one fan pole for a trigger winding of fine wire. Second and third pole was wound with about 80 turns of AWG24 wire. The remaining pole was left unused. This way I had a trigger coil, a power coil and a recovery coil with a bridge rectifier on the output. The fan run nicely, but the neon was flashing as if the recovery coil was not attached to a charging battery. Tried many things, even a neon bulb on the recovery winding would not light up. I am convinced that this is just because of the stator core geometry. I will try to use bifilar windings tomorrow.
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Old 04-12-2008, 02:12 PM
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Hello.
Today I tried some other fan mod setups. I found some more ways how it does not work First of all I found that if you use a thinner wire on one pole for the trigger coil, you can not use the pole on the other end for power windings. You have to use the next pole near the trigger pole on either side. Here is what I mean:



Ok. Anyway, I used one fan pole for trigger winding and the next one for power/recovery coils wound in bifilar way. At first I got the fan to run at the basic SSG circuit, leaving the recovery coil unused. Everything worked fine. Then I connected the recovery winding to the iput capacitor via a diode, like I do with my attraction motor. The neon was not flashing, that means thet the capacitor is absorbing the spikes, but I did not see any difference in amp draw. This is odd. Any ideas about what is wrong? I thought about this and came to conclusion that maybe the magnets are causing this, because Peter said that in order to get the BEMF to work along the input power, you need only electromagnets and no permanent magnets so that both magnetic fields do not interfere with each other. Might this be the cause?
This is the circuit I used:



The blue is the trigger winding, the red one is the power winding and the green one is the recovery winding.

Thanks,
Jetijs
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Old 04-14-2008, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetijs View Post
Hello.
Today I tried some other fan mod setups. I found some more ways how it does not work First of all I found that if you use a thinner wire on one pole for the trigger coil, you can not use the pole on the other end for power windings. You have to use the next pole near the trigger pole on either side. Here is what I mean:



Ok. Anyway, I used one fan pole for trigger winding and the next one for power/recovery coils wound in bifilar way. At first I got the fan to run at the basic SSG circuit, leaving the recovery coil unused. Everything worked fine. Then I connected the recovery winding to the iput capacitor via a diode, like I do with my attraction motor. The neon was not flashing, that means thet the capacitor is absorbing the spikes, but I did not see any difference in amp draw. This is odd. Any ideas about what is wrong? I thought about this and came to conclusion that maybe the magnets are causing this, because Peter said that in order to get the BEMF to work along the input power, you need only electromagnets and no permanent magnets so that both magnetic fields do not interfere with each other. Might this be the cause?
This is the circuit I used:



The blue is the trigger winding, the red one is the power winding and the green one is the recovery winding.

Thanks,
Jetijs

Hi Jetijs,

I personally always wondered about the SSG trigger coil and the power coil being on the same coil together,As I think that somehow they interfere with each other but I'm not as advanced on the subject as say yourself and other members like Peter and well, probably most of ya's .My question is do you find that you can charge the secondary battery as well or better than the standard SSG circuit?.Thx for any input and keep up the good work .

-Gary

Last edited by gmeat : 04-15-2008 at 12:25 AM.
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Old 04-15-2008, 12:18 AM
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Interesting tests Jet, I have some theories about it but I am not totally clear with them yet so I wont bother posting. I found 2 largish 24 volt fans to play with yesterday, so Ill try some things out.
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Old 04-15-2008, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by gmeat View Post
Hi Jetijs,
.My question is do you find that you can charge the secondary battery as well or better than the standard SSG circuit?.Thx for any input and keep up the good work

-Gary
Hi Gary
I haven't really palyed with fans for enough time to answer your question. I just made a few small tests to see if it will run on the Bedini circuit and it does. I can just say that the charging seemed very good, as far I could observe on these short tests. I believe Rick even managed to make the fan work so that he could just swap the batteries when the primary went down. And he could do this as long as he wanted, even months. But as far as I know, he used the cap pulser setup for this.
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Old 04-15-2008, 11:07 PM
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Jet from my understanding Rick had an scr/cap setup on the back end, but it was not pulsed. I could be wrong, but that is the schematic I have seen and studying his pics I can see no 555 timer or opto isolator.

My latest build employs this technique, with the scr on the positive leg (Ricks was on the negative I think) and I wonder if this qualifies as a conversion of the radiant which allows for battery swapping. The cap converts the high voltage and is an extension of the dipole, it usually hovers at a volt over the charge battery. Ill make a little video to show it today.
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Old 04-16-2008, 02:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ren View Post
Jet from my understanding Rick had an scr/cap setup on the back end, but it was not pulsed. I could be wrong, but that is the schematic I have seen and studying his pics I can see no 555 timer or opto isolator.

My latest build employs this technique, with the scr on the positive leg (Ricks was on the negative I think) and I wonder if this qualifies as a conversion of the radiant which allows for battery swapping. The cap converts the high voltage and is an extension of the dipole, it usually hovers at a volt over the charge battery. Ill make a little video to show it today.

Hi Ren,


I can confirm what you're saying about the cap voltage sitting about 1 volt above the battery and I may add that a second cap at least for me sits about 4-5 volts above the batttery.The thing I'm not sure about is I'm using 2 caps with the + coming off the 1n4007 to the 1st cap than to the 2nd cap than to the battery, Ok thats normal to me,What's a little abnormal to me is I'm experimenting with the - side in that I have the 1st cap with a 1n4007 so as to not let the electric flow to the cap but it can flow out to the second cap and to the battery.The 2nd cap is wired normallly.So my question is how can I get a reading on my 1st cap with the diode facing the wrong way so to speak? .thx for the input.


-Gary

Last edited by gmeat : 04-23-2008 at 11:27 PM. Reason: noob terminology my mistake
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Old 04-16-2008, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetijs View Post
Hi Gary
I haven't really palyed with fans for enough time to answer your question. I just made a few small tests to see if it will run on the Bedini circuit and it does. I can just say that the charging seemed very good, as far I could observe on these short tests. I believe Rick even managed to make the fan work so that he could just swap the batteries when the primary went down. And he could do this as long as he wanted, even months. But as far as I know, he used the cap pulser setup for this.
Hi Jetijs, if you can give me an idea how you hook up the Cap pulser to the Fan kit (In laymen's) then i can try the 4 battery? swapper for you, i have 4 conditioned batteries and a fan kit here.

Ash
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Old 04-16-2008, 01:01 PM
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Ren,
I found such a triggering way:
http://www.emuprim.lv/bildez/thumbs/...de-trigger.gif

I am not really sure how it works and what diode parameters are affecting the voltage at which the SCR triggers. Maybe someone can explain?

Anyway, if we decide to use this triggering method, then I figured that we could use such a circuit:


This is if we want to use a separate recovery coil. But then I found Ricks original circuit which in simplified view is something like this:



This way we do not have to use a separate recovery winding, this gives more space for more power windings which is good. You can see that the primary battery negative terminal is connected to capacitor negative terminal and the cap ir pulsed on the negative recovery battery lead. This new triggering way has intrigued me, I will try to replicate this. It is said that capacitor value should be at least 300V and the SCR must be rated for 800V 5A or something like this. Also with the basic fan mod I found out that this circuit does not act exactly like a simple SSG monopole. I suggest to use a high wattage 1K pot on the base, because I burned manu of 1/4W pots with the basic circuit. Also the 2W resistors are getting quite hot. So, Ash, I would be glad if you tried this out. I will also do this and then we can compare the results
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Old 04-16-2008, 01:17 PM
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Ok, I think I understood how this diode/scr triggering works now. So, look at the first picture again. We see that if the cap + terminal value is less or eaqual to the battery + terminal value - nothing will happen. We know that a voltage drop on a diode is somewhere about 0,5V, this meants that in order to trigger the SCR, the cap voltage must be at least 0.5V higher than the battery voltage. So, for example, if we want the SCR to trigger at 2V above the battery voltage, then we need to use 4 diodes in series. I hope I understood this right. Any comments are welcomed

Edit:
Ok, I played around with Ricks circuit. At first some pictures:







I wound two poles with 100 turns of AWG 27 or so wire and other two poles with 50 turns of gauge 21 wire. Soldered the circuit just like in the picture in my previous post, the one with no separate recovery winding. The only difference is that I did not have any SCRs around, so I did not use the cap and the cap triggering part, instead the recovery diode at the transistor collector was connected to the + of the charging battery and the negative terminal of the charging battery was connected to the negative lead of the primary power source. The base resistor was 47ohms with a 2k pot in series. When I finally got the rotor spinning, I noticed that I get the highest speed if my pot is turned to the least value leaving only 47Ohms for the base resistance. I could get about 2000 RPMs at 12V and about 1.8A The base resistor got really hot after a while (I used 2W resistor). I noticed that there is a sweetspot in the primary power source voltage. I used an adjustable voltage power supply as the primary power source. When I turned the voltage up till 12v the rotor spinned faster and faster, but if I got above that, the amp draw increased up to 4A and the rotor slowed down till it stopped. I can't understand this...

Last edited by Jetijs : 04-16-2008 at 09:08 PM.
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Old 04-16-2008, 10:18 PM
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Nice work Jet.

Check out my post about alternate tuning sg theres a diagram there as to how I set up the scr. Mine is the same as Ricks except the scr is in the positive leg. My understanding of the scr is that it is like a diode, but it has a gate function.

Here is a excerpt from Wikipedia.

" When the gate to cathode voltage exceeds a certain threshold, the device turns "on" and conducts current. The device will remain in the "on" state even after gate current is removed so long as current through the device remains above the holding current. Once current falls below the holding current for an appropriate period of time, the device will switch off."

I have been using a resistor in line with the diode that triggers the gate. I could be wrong but I think the voltage that builds up in the cap has to be strong enough to (a) be above the voltage of the cathode and (b) be high enough to overcome the resistance and diode to trigger the conduction.

Some one can set me straight if it isnt what is happening. Id be interested to see if there is much difference in having the scr in the positive leg or negative leg of the charging circuit.
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Old 04-16-2008, 11:04 PM
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i used rics circuit and did the dual transister design and all it did was rock back and forth and not fully spin up. any ideas? i used a smaller computer power supply fan which is a 3 inch. Could only get about 100 windings around each core. i used awg 26 wire. Any ideas why the motor would not spin up. I also tried one pole for power at 100 turns of awg 26 and the next 90 degree pole with 250 turns of thinner wire which was the trigger pole and the same thing occured it just rocked back and forth. Used a 1000kpot and a neon for each section and used 2n3055 transistors and used ecg519 for the base and emitter diode. Tried single and dual circuit just rocked. any help would be great and would be appreciated
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Old 04-17-2008, 10:40 AM
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Jet did you see my posts dood?

Here is the fan test we did today charging two 1.3aH bats from one.
Panacea Bedini Motor charging two batteries

Next step s 4 from one, i still don't know how to hook the cap pulser on it to test.
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Old 04-17-2008, 10:40 PM
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good work ash.

In regards to the cap pulser are you reffering to the 555/opto and SCR version? I can locate a schematic if it helps, I assume you are using the standard cap and scr on that video.
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Old 04-17-2008, 10:45 PM
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Ash - great video
Can you tell me your circuit specs? How many turns of what gauge wire? What is the base resistance? RPM's? Looks very good. Why don't you try the cap pulser setup I posted above? I would try this myself but I don't have any SCR's around.
As for the specs on the fanmod in my video. The input was 12V from a 7Ah battery, there was two trigger coils wired in series and two power coils also in series. All the windings were of gauge 24 wire, don't remember how many turns, I thing there were about 100 turns on each pole. I used only one transistor in that setup. Don't remember the base resistance but there was a tinny light bulb in series with the base resistance. That was the best setup I had so far with the best speed.

Thanks,
Jetijs
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Old 04-17-2008, 11:52 PM
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Jet or others, can you tell me if you had to change the magnet strip for it to work? I am not sure on the pole orientation of mine...
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Old 04-18-2008, 12:18 AM
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No, I used the original magnets in the strip. They are oriented in NSNS fashion. I believe this is why you can not get it to work if you use one pole for trigger coil and the pole oriented 180 degree apart for power coil.
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Old 04-18-2008, 02:13 AM
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cool thanks Jet, I just realised I had a bad clip connector. Its up and running now.


hmmmm. I am not sure if that is the configuration Jet. If it is a NSNS four pole then the norths would be 180 degrees opposite. In this case the trigger coil would NEED to be 180 degrees for it to trigger and fire on the north no? Perhaps 90 degrees trigger coils are triggering from the south pole, i.e. trigger windings switched.

Of course this wouldnt be a problem if it is NSNSNSNS 8 pole.....

hmmmm.

Last edited by ren : 04-18-2008 at 02:51 AM.
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Old 04-22-2008, 04:42 AM
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okay , yup....

ill try ANY thing you guys want me to try.. thats why we are all here to work together , will get the wire gauge and info off my technical assistant night and post, let me know EXACTLY (Ash is a bit of a Dumb aXX) what you want me to build and try and ill get my assistant to build and try it and post for you guys

Ash
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Old 04-23-2008, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetijs View Post
Ash - great video
Can you tell me your circuit specs? How many turns of what gauge wire? What is the base resistance? RPM's? Looks very good. Why don't you try the cap pulser setup I posted above? I would try this myself but I don't have any SCR's around.
As for the specs on the fanmod in my video. The input was 12V from a 7Ah battery, there was two trigger coils wired in series and two power coils also in series. All the windings were of gauge 24 wire, don't remember how many turns, I thing there were about 100 turns on each pole. I used only one transistor in that setup. Don't remember the base resistance but there was a tinny light bulb in series with the base resistance. That was the best setup I had so far with the best speed.

Thanks,
Jetijs
Okay , it was the same specs that Rick recommends with his SCH posted above, got the gauge as per the specs Rick states Number 24 gauge or thinner, we used 24, couldn't tell you how many turns just know that we crammed them on there till they we almost busted the plastic as rick said to do. Not sure of the base resistance sorry Jetijs, would we have to pull the fan art to find out?

The Fan pulls about 200 mA to charge TWO 1.3 aH bats, at around 2000 RPM.
Okay taking a look at the cap pulse above.
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Old 05-04-2008, 03:05 PM
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**~Imhotep~** **~Imhotep~** is offline
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multi success

7 replications, all computer fans ,some I used existing windings bifiller split the common then used fourth spot for additional pin scrapped original circuit like rick did all putting out radiant cold elec. some you could see in the neons purple brush like traces just above neon glow, used many close spec transistors didnt
matter all worked, parralleled output speeded up charging original rewind rocked because magnets on fans not monopole . wow easyist replications i have ever done recharged nihms ,lead acid, zink carbon ,alkaline. as back emf was funneled off to batts current draw on source kept dropping. wow it was in my face for 30 years, been a tech along time this is just the begining the potetial is mind boggling thanks rick ,bendini, lindemann grey, leedscalnin( magnetic current)
too excited sorry for any mis spellings, on to further adaptations will post results.!!!!!!! all other researchers on this project keep going this is huge!!!

Last edited by **~Imhotep~** : 08-04-2008 at 08:28 PM.
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Old 05-06-2008, 06:47 PM
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pixs and thanx

didn't forget about thanking rick, gmeat ,ren .Jetijs .theremart and ashtweth the questions and answers helped me solve certain issues. will post details of quick and easy proof of concept and tech results. here is picture of purple brush traces that Peter Lindemann has refered to in his other projects.

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Old 05-13-2008, 12:21 AM
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36 volt total white brush dartlets wow
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Old 05-17-2008, 10:51 PM
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ren ren is offline
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Just built the cap pulser guys, it rocks! Put it on my fan for fun, building another for the bike wheel.
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