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  #661  
Old 06-24-2015, 07:15 AM
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Matt did a lot of experimenting on the shape of the spinning weight on his bouncer. Some shapes worked and some did not. There is a method to his madness and it is based on research, research, research.

Dave
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  #662  
Old 06-25-2015, 01:26 AM
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Well Aaron,

It's a pretty chart you drew up! But it has noting to do with impulse. Nor does it have anything to do with NEGATIVE RESISTANCE, but is only what the charts appear to show (and what you've indicated it is); a study of the time to discharge capacitors from maximum potential to minimal potential, under two different scenarios. However, it says nothing about the make-up of the circuits into which the discharges were applied or the forces (voltages) involved. The chart on the right easily could have been the discharge time when the capacitor is shorted with a screw-driver. It certainly does not imply that the electrons were "sucked out". Electrons push electrons out of the capacitor due to potential difference. You've already "theorized" that gravity is a push (and I don't argue that). So, what could possibly "suck" (pull) an electron out?

An example of an impulse trace chart for a circuit would look like this:





Now, with this chart we can tell something about the voltage (forces) over a given time.

MagnaMoRo
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  #663  
Old 06-25-2015, 02:24 AM
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your deception is unwanted

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Originally Posted by MagnaMoRo View Post
But it has noting to do with impulse. Nor does it have anything to do with NEGATIVE RESISTANCE, but is only what the charts appear to show (and what you've indicated it is); a study of the time to discharge capacitors from maximum potential to minimal potential, under two different scenarios. However, it says nothing about the make-up of the circuits into which the discharges were applied or the forces (voltages) involved. The chart on the right easily could have been the discharge time when the capacitor is shorted with a screw-driver.
You're welcome to remain ignorant.

Thousands of people understand these effects after all these years of experimenting with the plasma ignition methods whether it is my method or the standard one.

It is negative resistance - get over it. You are ignorant that negative resistance happens at a spark gap anyway, fluorescent light bulbs operate under negative resistance, etc...

Shorted with a screwdriver? That is truly pathetic.

You just got exposed for putting a half truth about the definition of impulse while leaving out the other part of the definition that clearly spells out SHORT PERIOD OF TIME.

My chart shows non-impulse and then impulse - get over it.

First of all, capacitors do not get filled up with electrons. When I say current is sucked out, that is just common language to show a counter to current moving with resistance from a cap discharge. A higher voltage potential than that current is normally associated with is over the same gap and that is what accelerates the movement of the current with a negative resistance. You have no understanding of negative resistance effects of spark gaps or with this plasma ignition method.

Your misinformation unwelcome and is going to come to and end. Accusing me of posting a diagram that is being shorted out with a screw driver when it is showing what I said it shows is unacceptable to me and only shows the levels that you will stoop to in order to spread your half truths and other misinformation that does nothing but throw people off the right track.
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  #664  
Old 06-25-2015, 02:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
You're welcome to remain ignorant.


Shorted with a screwdriver? That is truly pathetic.

You just got exposed for putting a half truth about the definition of impulse ..............................

My chart shows non-impulse and then impulse - get over it.


Your misinformation unwelcome and is going to come to an end. Accusing me of posting a diagram that is being shorted out with a screw driver when it is showing what I said it shows is unacceptable to me and only shows the levels that you will stoop to in order to spread your half truths and other misinformation that does nothing but throw people off the right track.
See now we all can see these people for what they really are.

Willingly blind and belligerent. You are right Aaron and I will always

back up the voice of reason. This hostile performance to make

up a confrontational lie against the one who is correct to undermine

the purity of logic that is deeply hated by those who have

been thoroughly captured by their own cloudy thinking.

Still it is a wonderful thing to see you get determined to express

all of the important truths relating to what we have never been

taught in a Gov/School.

It's this aggressive, threatening behavior that makes me grow

a new set of teeth and I see you are the same way. Stick to

your guns.

I see these guys coming within 2 posts but I give them the

benefit of the doubt and just let them "open mouth and

insert foot"

Yes now back to the impulse studies you have kindly

set out on the table, this stuff is right and is worth

going after. Tell me more.

The low blow with the screw driver comment? Yeah like

John Bedini's video where he shorts out the wire so the

other type of energy can be viewed? He is mocking

John Bedini.

I see these things when they crawl up.
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  #665  
Old 06-25-2015, 04:33 AM
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Importance of short duration impulse

This is off topic here, but to make it more complete - you have to study what a capacitor is - http://ericpdollard.com/wp-content/u...ic-dollard.pdf

The common understanding is incorrect.

The electrons for the current come from the copper wire itself and not the capacitor.

------------------------------------------

MagnaMoRo - what I find insincere about your posts about the subject of impulses is that despite the fact that I posted not only conventional definitions that constantly point out the short/fast duration essence to impulse and definite it quite clearly in how it applies to these systems, you continue to push a definition of impulse that is a conventional definition of impulse, but has nothing to do with the Skinner machine or anything else here.

And you claim that the right side of the chart I show is not an impulse? Do you realize you are only demonstrating that you have no idea what an impulse is?

The entire point is that on "overunity" devices, besides energy gains, is that there are serious opportunity for power gains, which can be exploited in various ways. How do you increase power for the same amount of energy?

You cause the potential available to be dissipated in as short of a period of time as possible, which is an IMPULSE. It is an impulse with a short period of time that gives an increase in power. Trying to dispute this by bringing up one selective definition that does not describe a short time period and in the context of these kind of machines is simply arguing for the sake of arguing. You are unable to acknowledge that I have clearly spelled out that IMPULSE in the context I am using it is specifically a short duration impulse for the purpose of having power gains.

The uninformed and conventionally thinking person believes that energy dissipated at low power or high power is the same since they're the same energy but that is false. TIME compression is all important and with time compressed discharges, MORE is accomplished than can be accomplished with the same energy at low power (over longer time). It is a fact that the conventionally minded believers can't accept but it's true.

The first image is a CDI discharge and the second image is my plasma method - both start with the SAME joules of potential energy in the capacitor but they're obviously not the same even though it is the same energy.




The 2nd one accomplishes WAY more than the first one even though it is the same energy. Discharging the cap under the negative resistance method accelerates the discharge so we have a very small time component, a true IMPULSE. This is a ridiculously high power gain so we do accomplish more with higher power regardless of what the conventionally minded believers want to think.

The first one IS an impulse and can be defined by the definitions and believes you provided here, but it is absent the most important thing about the impulse, which is to have the smallest time component as possible to have as much power as possible for that moment.

The reason why high power short time IMPULSES do accomplish more is because with a slower dissipation of energy (over a longer period of time), there is more time for nature to bring that work back to equilibrium between each cycle. But if we have a higher power impulse, less equilibrium is achieved between each cycle and that means we are more effective at maintaining our dipole or potential difference in the system.

If someone sits around and wants to accomplish something and they put in 1 hour per week for 10 weeks, week to week, most of that momentum has been equalized and it takes more to get it going each time. But if someone puts in 2 hours per week for 5 weeks, results will come quicker. If someone puts in 5 hours per week for 2 weeks, even more results will come happen because it was cranked up higher and faster and it will take even longer for nature to bring it to equilibrium.

If someone wants to build a network marketing business for example and they put in an hour per week for 52 weeks, they will get only so much done. But if someone puts in 10 hours per week for 5.2 weeks, they will build a much larger organization because there is less time for everything to die down between each moment of effort. That is why "all out massive action" (short time impulse) will always outperform those who put in less time over a longer period of time.

I'm only bringing that up because these are natural laws that apply to all situations whether they are energy machines, organic systems (business building), etc... it doesn't matter. Compressing energy in time is the entire point and any definition of impulse that does not embody that fact is a definition that has virtually no significant relevance to any system that is supposed to be overunity.
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  #666  
Old 06-25-2015, 02:29 PM
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...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
...
First and foremost I have not accused YOU of anything. I merely meant that your chart itself, in looking at it, only shows that one cap has discharged more quickly, but does not explain why or what is happening or the effects of doing so. Anyone can discharge a cap slowly (into some kind of circuit), or quickly (with a screw-driver), and achieve similar graph results. True? So, don't misconstrue it as an attack on you.

I don't really want to talk about fast cap discharges here (that is for another topic). I do understand your various "impulse" meanings. But, since this topic is about the Skinner machine, I only think it fair that if we are going to talk about impulses (quick burst of energy) then we also need to discuss the results or effects of doing so, or whether this would be beneficial or not.

The sudden release of pressure into an object does not necessarily have the best result. I believe that if quick impulses are used on the massive weights of the skinner device to create a whipping ovular effect, this would have an undesirable vibrational effect on the machine vs. the same amount of energy being smoothly placed into the weights over a full circular rotation.

Is there any basis for my belief?

I have done studies of sudden vs. slowly dispersed impulses of energy. (See the video below.) But, in brief explanation; Car A can accelerate car B two different ways. Car A can push car B up to 60mph slowly, OR, Car A can accelerate up to 60mph and slam into the back of Car B. Which will have the more beneficial energy release?

Here is one of my study examples:



In the video, all three levels have identical thrusters that release the the same amount of energy over the same period of time. However, the results are different based solely upon the dispersion!

Respectfully,
MagnaMoRo
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  #667  
Old 06-26-2015, 02:19 PM
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Nash and gravity

"He also said Nash claimed his replacement would help further explain quantum gravity.

Einstein's theory of relativity, published in the early 20th century, explains that what we perceive as gravity arises from the curvature of space and time.

Read more: John Forbes Nash Jr said he could replace Einstein theory DAYS before death | Daily Mail Online
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  #668  
Old 06-26-2015, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnaMoRo View Post

I have done studies of sudden vs. slowly dispersed impulses of energy. (See the video below.) But, in brief explanation; Car A can accelerate car B two different ways. Car A can push car B up to 60mph slowly, OR, Car A can accelerate up to 60mph and slam into the back of Car B. Which will have the more beneficial energy release?
Hmmm. You may have made Aaron's point for him. It all depends on what you deem as beneficial. If you slam into a car at 60 mph you end up releasing all of the energy in a very brief span of time. This, of course, has undesirable (to most) effects to car B but if your goal is to release a lot of energy then it will certainly have that effect. If, however, you slowly push car B up to 60 mph then you take that same energy and spread it out along the roadway in the form of heat and friction (nature absorbing and regulating the energy transfer). The better of the two methods all depends on what you hope to accomplish as an end result.

I am not as articulate as most of you guys but after reading here for years I know that Aaron has always taught ideas and concepts as truthfully as he understands them. Nobody has all of the answers or we would not need a forum like this to share what we do know.

Have a great day everyone!
Charlie
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  #669  
Old 06-27-2015, 01:19 AM
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Hmmm. You may have made Aaron's point for him. It all depends on what you deem as beneficial. If you slam into a car at 60 mph you end up releasing all of the energy in a very brief span of time. This, of course, has undesirable (to most) effects to car B but if your goal is to release a lot of energy then it will certainly have that effect. If, however, you slowly push car B up to 60 mph then you take that same energy and spread it out along the roadway in the form of heat and friction (nature absorbing and regulating the energy transfer). The better of the two methods all depends on what you hope to accomplish as an end result.

I am not as articulate as most of you guys but after reading here for years I know that Aaron has always taught ideas and concepts as truthfully as he understands them. Nobody has all of the answers or we would not need a forum like this to share what we do know.

Have a great day everyone!
Charlie
Hi Carlie,

It sounds like you are as happy to have Aaron's forum as I am. It's a great place to SHARE ideas and thoughts. I'm sure this is why Aaron made this forum in the first place. I'm just enjoying listening to AND bringing in thought provoking, interesting material, and SHARING opinions.

As we see and think about things we share, surely all of us, You, Me, Aaron, and everyone else have a little room for growth in the areas of mental thinking ability and articulation. For what man knows it all?

Moving on,

I haven't built the machine, yet. If I do, it wont be full scale. But, I do have enough interest to share my observations and thoughts.

I'm not sure how you think I made Arron's point for him.
In my example with car (A) & (B):
Car (A) will receive the exact same amount of energy in both scenarios, just over different amounts of impulse time.
However, the results will be different.
As the energy transfer impulse time is decreased more and more, then more and more energy is moved from use for propulsion of car (A) over to the destruction of both car (A) and car (B). Thus there is energy lost as heat, sound and vibration during the impulse moment that could have been used for propulsion.

On a side note, a high energy fast discharge from a capacitor can manifest itself as bright light (Aaron's cap discharge pictures testifies to this), destruction of metal leads (on the cap and/or other contact points), sound, heat, RF interference, etc... Depending upon what you are trying to do, of course, these manifestations could be considered undesirable, destructive or wasteful.

These thoughts considered, how then will the input arm, massive weights, drive mechanism, output mechanism, etc... react to quick burst impulses?
Where is the advantage?
I think there would be undesirable consequences.

Just giving food for thought in considering how the Skinner machine is to be regarded strictly and without question as an elliptical impulse machine.

It may actually have worked that way, but without the actual machine being available for examination, and existing pictures somehow being of just sufficient obscurity to cause a shadow of doubt (in the minds of some) over the actual mechanics causing motion within the machine; well then, every avenue of reason is still open to exploration.


MagnaMoRo
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  #670  
Old 06-27-2015, 03:39 AM
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The reason not many replicators have successfully replicated mechanical torque amplifiers is because they have not built replications with mass substantial to overcome mechanical frictional losses.

I see that the gravitational potential has to be collected quickly by impulse of larger weights.

Of course the stumbling block for replicators is affording the mechanism to support this large capture of impulse of gravitational energy.

Look at the size of the replications and look at the size of Skinners device.

We simply don't have that budget or are not risking the budget for anything near a full size replication.

Steel is not cheap!
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  #671  
Old 06-27-2015, 03:46 AM
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To build a snowball takes little energy. To start it rolling down a hill takes little energy.

The snowball in the right surroundings has the capability to grow using gravitational potential and smash a small village down.

There is infinite energy in gravitational potential if the mechanism can support the correct mass to capture it.

Of course devices can be scaled up and staged to suit whatever energy requirements.
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Old 06-27-2015, 05:36 AM
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impulse advantage

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Originally Posted by MagnaMoRo View Post
These thoughts considered, how then will the input arm, massive weights, drive mechanism, output mechanism, etc... react to quick burst impulses?
Where is the advantage?
I think there would be undesirable consequences.
I did give my 2 cents on this a couple times. The lower weights rotation around the lower shaft is the key to the smooth transition. First of all, the lower weight always falls to the inside of the incline and second of all, it's own momentum around the lower shaft carries it to one end and then back as it swings around the end point towards the other direction.

The only undesirable consequences would be if the lower weight did not swing around the shaft and if the lower shaft did not rotate. If they did not, then kicking the it back in the other direction would be bucking against it's momentum which is fairly fixed in one direction. That would be a serious bucking force that would tear the machine apart but that Skinner's mechanism avoids this so is not an issue.

The input lever kicks the lower shaft back in the other direction. The Impulse is the sudden transition of the momentum of the object AND the kick from the input lever in one smooth transition because of the ellipse. There is curvature at the end. Even if it is linear, the weight spinning around the lower shaft moves in the opposite direction by itself without having to buck it in that direction, which would cause a lot of counter resistance. It doesn't take much for the lower weight to overcome the travel to a greater height at the narrow end of the ellipse (at center) and at that point over the top, gravitational potential energy is then able to come into the system and push it down towards the other end of the ellipse.

The momentum of the lower weight and the input lever kick is greater not only in power but in energy than the loss against the gravitational force of it moving towards the narrow part of the ellipse. I know this to be an experimental fact because after stopping input on an elliptical path, the lower shaft can make extra rotations without any input. That means there is obviously more than is necessary to overcome the work needed to go against gravity. Include the input kick and we have quite a bit more on each cycle.

So when it goes over the top, we not only have the momentum of the lower weight kicked up a bit from the input lever, we have added gravitational potential that comes into the system and pushes on the weight.

You might wonder where is the advantage here? I think it is obvious and it would be my question how can anyone not see an advantage here?

The movement of the weight appears to be the fastest at the end points of transition in its direction and is assisted in speeding up with the input lever kick plus its own mechanism spinning around the lower shaft. That also means that at those end points, there is more speed and distance of the lower weight per unit of time than anywhere else on the entire orbit. That means there is a power increase there that happens twice per rotation because of the Impulse at those two end points.

If you want to remove the impulse, reduce the power and have a steady speed for the lower weight on its entire journey of 1 full rotation, then put it in a circular orbit - the very thing that defeats the entire point that Skinner worked to accomplish.
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Old 06-27-2015, 05:44 AM
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build bigger

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The reason not many replicators have successfully replicated mechanical torque amplifiers is because they have not built replications with mass substantial to overcome mechanical frictional losses.
That is a very important concept.

The larger the machine, the lower the percentage the frictional losses become compared to the total.
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Old 06-27-2015, 05:52 AM
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the goal is "overunity" - ellipse + impulse

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Depending upon what you are trying to do, of course, these manifestations could be considered undesirable, destructive or wasteful.
That's right - depending on what we want to do.

When we're talking about a non-equilibrium energy machine that outputs mechanical work, the goal is to increase the power of our available resources, which is done with impulses. We will have a speed and torque increase and if it is an open system open to free external source potential (gravity), then we not only get a power increase from the input lever at the right time and the lower weight's mechanism to self propel itself in the other direction, but we get a real energy gain or increase in work compared to our input.

A circular mechanism and no impulses brings the machine into equilibrium and in that case, we might as well direct drive every machine direct from wall power because that is where there is no advantage.

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Old 07-06-2015, 05:42 PM
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I applaud all the input to this discussion, lively, cogenic and fun to read. I however must incorporate my efforts into what I know and understand as mechanically advantageous in my replications. However the conversation goes in each of our labs it is curious to me how many theories come into play. "Truely Amazing".

So to do... I see the ability of overcoming the disparaging failure of ou for the skinner device is managing the Levers, fulcrums, and slope of angle for the gravity to be a usable element in the machine. However compelling the reasoning for elliptical and linear movement being laid out my primary focus is only on the lower 2/3 of the machine.

I am well aware of the friction elements: Bearings, alignment to vertical, and drive belts or gearboxes. My replications show me how important these factors really are.
The vertical axis Or degree of slope is paramount!

I won't go into bearing alignment because IF you don't get this component you are LOST to any mechanical build anyways.

I have fixed my perspective on the gravity component, I would contend this: Any amount of weight is doable given the Slope is correct and all load bearing are adequate.

I do not think about the explanation of why OU or perpetual motion does not work because I see the universe by itself operating together as individual self cohesive units that contain millions of components Or only a couple that too are cogenetic and cohesive, being simple or complicated work just fine. Nature itself is like this. so I look at this machine as a simple adaptation of a natural occurrence.

A slope is the most natural element of our everyday life as anything..... liquid will flow down "any" slope depending on the viscosity in relation which is related to time. I see bearings and fulcrums as this viscosity element.

I just ordered the correct bearings and fulcrum shafts for one unit. If I like what I ordered and my figures are correct I will make other inroads.

Good luck.
Have a great day.
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Old 08-02-2015, 08:35 AM
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elliptical?

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First and foremost I have not accused YOU of anything. I merely meant that your chart itself, in looking at it, only shows that one cap has discharged more quickly, but does not explain why or what is happening or the effects of doing so. Anyone can discharge a cap slowly (into some kind of circuit), or quickly (with a screw-driver), and achieve similar graph results. True? So, don't misconstrue it as an attack on you.
No, it's not true. Take a cap and short it out with a screwdriver and show us all that it makes the plasma. It does not make it discharge quickly in this manner and I already explained why the cap discharges quicker with the negative resistance effect.

You're dismissing what I said without ever having done the experiment.

Anyway, I'd like to know if anyone else here has also done experiments with the elliptical movement.
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Old 08-02-2015, 01:34 PM
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No, it's not true. Take a cap and short it out with a screwdriver and show us all that it makes the plasma. It does not make it discharge quickly in this manner and I already explained why the cap discharges quicker with the negative resistance effect.

You're dismissing what I said without ever having done the experiment.

Anyway, I'd like to know if anyone else here has also done experiments with the elliptical movement.


Any one can see that there are quick burst of high energy here. It is making high temperature plasma that makes small explosions (the popping sound), vaporizing small quantities of metal on the nail and making very bright light (plasma).




Attempts at elliptical mechanisms prove to be complex undertakings.

MagnaMoRo
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Old 08-02-2015, 06:33 PM
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Any one can see that there are quick burst of high energy here. It is making high temperature plasma that makes small explosions (the popping sound), vaporizing small quantities of metal on the nail and making very bright light (plasma).
You've got to be kidding. That is not even remotely connected to what the plasma circuit is that accelerates the cap discharge with negative resistance. That is a very SLOW event you are showing and everyone has done that on the bench - that is NOT a high speed current impulse. You don't know the difference and apparently are not interested in understanding anything different than what you already believe.

That is an unsuccessful attempt so I'll rephrase the question - has anyone successfully built an elliptical mechanism and tested the difference between the output of that and a circular orbit?
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Old 12-25-2015, 05:29 PM
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Replication w. skinner machine 1° step

Salve a tutti. ho letto per molto tempo i vostri commenti sulla macchina di W. Skinner e, naturalmente visionato a lungo il filmato del 1939 ed ho deciso di buttarmi anche io nella sperimentazione alla ricerca del mitico guadagno di forza che si potrebbe ottenere da un macchinario che sfrutta le forze di gravità. dopo un anno di penoso lavoro e numerosissimi smonta e rimonta ho messo insieme questo macchinario https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib3ZATuJZis che umilmente sottopongo al giudizio delle persone competenti che partecipano a questo forum, che tanto mi hanno illuminato nel trovare le più idonee soluzioni, nella speranza di ottene suggerimenti per migliorare la resa del meccanismo. fatemi tutte le domande, risponderò con piacere. saluti http://www.energeticforum.com/images.../notworthy.gif
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Old 12-25-2015, 05:32 PM
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W. Skinner Replica 1° step

Hello everyone. I read for a long time, your comments on the car of W. Skinner and of course long viewed the footage of 1939 and I decided to throw myself even I experimentation in search of the mythical strength gain that you would get from a machine that exploits forces of gravity. after a year of painful work and numerous dismantle and reassemble I put together this machinery https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib3ZATuJZis who humbly submit to the judgment of the competent persons participating in this forum, so that I have enlightened in finding the most appropriate solutions, hoping to gain an suggestions to improve the performance of the mechanism. do me any questions, I will answer with pleasure.
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  #681  
Old 12-25-2015, 08:32 PM
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big build

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Originally Posted by armandino View Post
Hello everyone. I read for a long time, your comments on the car of W. Skinner and of course long viewed the footage of 1939 and I decided to throw myself even I experimentation in search of the mythical strength gain that you would get from a machine that exploits forces of gravity. after a year of painful work and numerous dismantle and reassemble I put together this machinery https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib3ZATuJZis who humbly submit to the judgment of the competent persons participating in this forum, so that I have enlightened in finding the most appropriate solutions, hoping to gain an suggestions to improve the performance of the mechanism. do me any questions, I will answer with pleasure.
That's a great build - the best large scale build I've seen.

Does the upper and lower weight move independently of each other?

Can you convert the upper circular rotation to an elliptical rotation? The lower weight's center of gravity has to change. It's only possible with an elliptical motion because at the end of the narrow path, the lower weight is at a low and as it goes to the wide center part of the ellipse, it is high, then it falls to the narrow end. After it falls to the narrow end, right before it moves in the opposite direction, that is where the input lever at the top needs to give its input - and it needs to do that on both ends of the ellipse.
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  #682  
Old 12-25-2015, 10:00 PM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Originally Posted by armandino View Post
Salve a tutti. ho letto per molto tempo i vostri commenti sulla macchina di W. Skinner e, naturalmente visionato a lungo il filmato del 1939 ed ho deciso di buttarmi anche io nella sperimentazione alla ricerca del mitico guadagno di forza che si potrebbe ottenere da un macchinario che sfrutta le forze di gravità. dopo un anno di penoso lavoro e numerosissimi smonta e rimonta ho messo insieme questo macchinario https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib3ZATuJZis che umilmente sottopongo al giudizio delle persone competenti che partecipano a questo forum, che tanto mi hanno illuminato nel trovare le più idonee soluzioni, nella speranza di ottene suggerimenti per migliorare la resa del meccanismo. fatemi tutte le domande, risponderò con piacere. saluti http://www.energeticforum.com/images.../notworthy.gif
Ciao e Buon Natale

Avete lavorato sodo per rendere questo dispositivo.
Sei stato in grado di dimostrare un guadagno di coppia?

Grazie per aver condiviso

Luc
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  #683  
Old 12-25-2015, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armandino View Post
Hello everyone. I read for a long time, your comments on the car of W. Skinner and of course long viewed the footage of 1939 and I decided to throw myself even I experimentation in search of the mythical strength gain that you would get from a machine that exploits forces of gravity. after a year of painful work and numerous dismantle and reassemble I put together this machinery https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib3ZATuJZis who humbly submit to the judgment of the competent persons participating in this forum, so that I have enlightened in finding the most appropriate solutions, hoping to gain an suggestions to improve the performance of the mechanism. do me any questions, I will answer with pleasure.
WOW WOW WOW nice nice big build. Thanks for sharing so I can
learn the gravity experiments too. Ask Aaron he is the best.


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Last edited by BroMikey; 12-25-2015 at 10:44 PM.
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  #684  
Old 12-26-2015, 05:38 PM
armandino armandino is offline
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energia dalla forza di gravità

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
That's a great build - the best large scale build I've seen.

Does the upper and lower weight move independently of each other?

Can you convert the upper circular rotation to an elliptical rotation? The lower weight's center of gravity has to change. It's only possible with an elliptical motion because at the end of the narrow path, the lower weight is at a low and as it goes to the wide center part of the ellipse, it is high, then it falls to the narrow end. After it falls to the narrow end, right before it moves in the opposite direction, that is where the input lever at the top needs to give its input - and it needs to do that on both ends of the ellipse.
Grazie, il tuo commento mi aiuta a continuare e migliorare la macchina. La massa superiore ruota in modo indipendente dalla massa inferiore e, come vedi nel filmato, questo si ottiene tramite la rotazione di una asse verticale (leva di archimede) dentro un buco della piastra. La leva viene utilizzata per ottenere un forte guadagno di coppia e consentire la rotazione della piastra in modo indipendente, con un moto circolare perfetto. Questa necessità mi impedisce di pensare ad un meccanismo ad ingranaggi che mi trasforma la rotazione circolare in rotazione ellittica. conosco gli ingranaggi ellittici ma li vedo lavorare bene su un piano verticale. Ti chiedo se quando le masse raggiungono la velocità massima, può l'energia inerziale annullare l'effetto della rotazione ellittica ? la macchina gira velocemente ed è già difficile contenere le sollecitazioni della forza centrifuga conseguente. secondo me la rotazione ellittica si può utilizzare con velocità ridotte. penso. e solo un ingranaggio con presa solidale può dare questo effetto e non una rotazione circolare indipendente. Comunque pur di ottenere uno sbilanciamento e quindi una leggera rotazione ellittica, ho disallineato il centro asse della leva ( il punto di fulcro ) con il centro asse del rotore sul pavimento e penso di essere riuscito, comunque, ad ottenere un lieve movimento ellittico vantaggioso in quanto i pesi a riposo, si posizionano sempre a sinistra. Io credo nel guadagno dalla rotazione ellittica e per questo motivo ho già completato disegno di una nuova macchina che sfrutterà questo effetto. A presto
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  #685  
Old 12-26-2015, 05:43 PM
armandino armandino is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotoluc View Post
Ciao e Buon Natale

Avete lavorato sodo per rendere questo dispositivo.
Sei stato in grado di dimostrare un guadagno di coppia?

Grazie per aver condiviso

Luc
No, è ancora presto per verificare un guadagno con un solo modulo rotore. Sto sostituendo la trasmissione con pulegge con una trasmissione a catena anche in previsione di trasmettere la rotazione agli altri rotori (4) in seguito. Debbo verificare se un motore da 220V - 180W darà la forza a tutti i rotori che installerò e solo dopo verificherò la bontà del lavoro.
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  #686  
Old 12-26-2015, 08:28 PM
marxist marxist is offline
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translation attempt

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Originally Posted by armandino View Post
Grazie, il tuo commento mi aiuta a continuare e migliorare la macchina. La massa superiore ruota in modo indipendente dalla massa inferiore e, come vedi nel filmato, questo si ottiene tramite la rotazione di una asse verticale (leva di archimede) dentro un buco della piastra. La leva viene utilizzata per ottenere un forte guadagno di coppia e consentire la rotazione della piastra in modo indipendente, con un moto circolare perfetto. Questa necessità mi impedisce di pensare ad un meccanismo ad ingranaggi che mi trasforma la rotazione circolare in rotazione ellittica. conosco gli ingranaggi ellittici ma li vedo lavorare bene su un piano verticale. Ti chiedo se quando le masse raggiungono la velocità massima, può l'energia inerziale annullare l'effetto della rotazione ellittica ? la macchina gira velocemente ed è già difficile contenere le sollecitazioni della forza centrifuga conseguente. secondo me la rotazione ellittica si può utilizzare con velocità ridotte. penso. e solo un ingranaggio con presa solidale può dare questo effetto e non una rotazione circolare indipendente. Comunque pur di ottenere uno sbilanciamento e quindi una leggera rotazione ellittica, ho disallineato il centro asse della leva ( il punto di fulcro ) con il centro asse del rotore sul pavimento e penso di essere riuscito, comunque, ad ottenere un lieve movimento ellittico vantaggioso in quanto i pesi a riposo, si posizionano sempre a sinistra. Io credo nel guadagno dalla rotazione ellittica e per questo motivo ho già completato disegno di una nuova macchina che sfrutterà questo effetto. A presto
Hi,
here my attemtp of a translations of armandinos posting #684 into English
Quote:
Originally Posted by armandino View Post
[translation IT >EN]Thanks, Your comment helps me to continue the job and making the machine better.
The mass on top rotates independently from the mass below, and as you see in the video this effect is obtained through the rotation of a vertical axis (Archimedes' lever) within a hole in the plate.

The lever is used to get a big gain of coupling and allowing an independent rotation of the plate, caused by perfectly circular rotation.

This necessity makes it difficult for me to think about a mechanism with gears that would transform the circular rotation into an elliptical one.

I know elliptical gears but I can only see them work well in a vertical plane. I am asking you: when the masses reach their maximum speed, can the inertial energy cancel the effect of an elliptical rotation ?
The machine rotates fast and it is already difficult to contain the stress that arises due to centrifugal forces. According to my thinking elliptical rotation can be used at lower speed and only a gear with singular attachment [presa solidale ??] can bring about this result, not an independent circular rotation.

Anyway, in order to obtain an imbalance and consequently a slight elliptical rotation I have dis-aligned the central axis of the lever ( the fulcrum point ) from the center axis of the rotor on the pavement and I think that this worked, and resulted in a light advantageous elliptical movement, in so far that in the resting position the weights always position themselves on the left side.
I believe in a gain through elliptical movement and that is why I have completed a design for a new setup which will make use of that. I will be back.[/translation]
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Last edited by marxist; 12-26-2015 at 08:35 PM.
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  #687  
Old 12-27-2015, 08:46 AM
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William Skinner Gravity Power

Originally Posted by armandino [translation IT >EN]Thanks, Your comment helps me to continue the job and making the machine better.
The mass on top rotates independently from the mass below, and as you see in the video this effect is obtained through the rotation of a vertical axis (Archimedes' lever) within a hole in the plate.

The lever is used to get a big gain of coupling and allowing an independent rotation of the plate, caused by perfectly circular rotation.

This necessity makes it difficult for me to think about a mechanism with gears that would transform the circular rotation into an elliptical one.

I know elliptical gears but I can only see them work well in a vertical plane. I am asking you: when the masses reach their maximum speed, can the inertial energy cancel the effect of an elliptical rotation ?
The machine rotates fast and it is already difficult to contain the stress that arises due to centrifugal forces. According to my thinking elliptical rotation can be used at lower speed and only a gear with singular attachment [presa solidale ??] can bring about this result, not an independent circular rotation.

Anyway, in order to obtain an imbalance and consequently a slight elliptical rotation I have dis-aligned the central axis of the lever ( the fulcrum point ) from the center axis of the rotor on the pavement and I think that this worked, and resulted in a light advantageous elliptical movement, in so far that in the resting position the weights always position themselves on the left side.
I believe in a gain through elliptical movement and that is why I have completed a design for a new setup which will make use of that. I will be back.[/translation]

----------------------------------

If top weight moves independently of the lower weight, that is good since that is what is necessary to have the upper weight indirectly move the lower weight.

When upper weight moves, it moves the lower shaft and causes the lower weight to fall to the inside of the incline of the lower shaft.

That is how the lower weight is constantly chasing the upper weight.

That is also how gravity causes the lower weight move position even if it is circular.

With elliptical movement, the lower weight will fall to the inside of the incline of the shaft, which changes it's center of gravity in relation to its position in the rotational orbit - this happens in circular orbit as well. This is a change in the horizontal plane.

HOWEVER, with an elliptical orbit, the lower weight's center of gravity changes in relation to the angle that the shaft holds it in throughout the elliptical orbit, which means it its center of gravity actually changes height periodically up and down, which is impossible with a circular orbit. This is a change in the vertical plane, which only happens with an elliptical orbit.

With an elliptical orbit, the center of gravity changes on the horizontal plane that it is rotating around, but also vertically up and down depending on where in the elliptical orbit it is on. In the wider part of the ellipse, it is the highest and at the ends of the narrow parts of the ellipse it is the lowest.

The plate that you are rotating with the bottom of the lever does not need modification, only the very top of the lever, which needs to be made to rotate elliptically. There are multiple mechanisms to accomplish this. The original Skinner method is obvious in the animated gif that Bro Mikey posted. You can see the top of the lever is rotating on a little spinning arm on the end of a larger oscillating arm - together, it causes an elliptical motion of the lever and not a circular one.

This goes right to the place in my video that explains what you see in the animated gif:

https://youtu.be/JolNozy8UEY?t=34m56s




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  #688  
Old 12-27-2015, 10:09 AM
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Elliptical Orbit.

GREAT build!!!

Here is a visual representation of what Aaron has been talking about. This is NOT my idea, but his. And it is a SIMPLE way to obtain an elliptical orbit. Not trying to muddy the waters, just trying to help out.

Dave
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Elliptical orbit.jpg (49.0 KB, 28 views)
File Type: jpg Elliptical drivemechanism.jpg (23.3 KB, 20 views)
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Last edited by Turion; 12-27-2015 at 12:16 PM.
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  #689  
Old 12-27-2015, 05:55 PM
SpecJet SpecJet is offline
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Armandino, Congratulations on your build, you've done a fantastic job.
I think this is the closest Skinner replication I've seen to date.

There is one area that I think you may have missed, in replicating Skinner.

Watching your video @ :09, you can see that your wobble plate is attached to the input shaft by a ball joint that allows it to stay horizontal to the ground at all times regardless of the angle of the input shaft.

If you watch the original Skinner video, @ :28, you can see that the wobble plate changes angle as the input shaft tilts and remains perpendicular to the input shaft at all times. @ :29 you can see the setscrew that holds the wobble plate to the input shaft. You can also see the input shaft spinning as the machine starts up @ :36.

I think this is a critical part of the design as the angle of the wobble plate is what creates the condition that allows the top weight to always be falling down hill.


Looking forward to seeing more videos and watching your progress.


John
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  #690  
Old 12-27-2015, 08:51 PM
armandino armandino is offline
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Elliptic rotation

To Aaron

I understood your comments and thank you for valuable tips and I have concluded that I will apply an elliptical motion precisely in primary drive motor-pinion replacing the pinion with a pair of elliptical crowns wheel used on bike with its chain drive. It will be seen later on the result.
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