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  #511  
Old 10-09-2014, 11:17 PM
shylo shylo is offline
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counter balance

Hi Burn , Great video ,
I think this is where the "always falling " came from.
The counter balance has to be above, with more compact mass , the lower is longer and spread out.
Thanks , artv
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  #512  
Old 10-10-2014, 01:32 AM
wayne.ct wayne.ct is offline
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Amazing lack of communication and demonstrated inattention

Hi Fellow Experimenters!

The last time I read this thread it was much shorter. I just now read through the last few pages of this thread and watched a bunch of the videos, some of them AGAIN and I am really shocked at the way some are thinking they understand Skinner when it is quite obvious they are not paying attention to the obvious evidence presented. Many are trying to communicate but very few are being successful.

All I can say is this: We are looking at the same words, pictures and explanations but we are getting multiple different understandings. This is about par for this forum, but ALL the various builders trying to replicate this thing all call their devices Skinner replications. Well, I doubt they are ALL correct. After all, there are significant differences between many of them.

My conclusion is "good luck" because you are going to need it. I would say the chances are that most of the replications will fail because the builders simply cannot understand what they are seeing and are jumping to conclusions about how the Skinner device works. It sure is obvious that they are not building things that match what Skinner did. My guess is that 90 percent of the replications will fail because they can't interpret correctly what the pictures show.

You guys are really shaking my trust that you know much at all. Go back to the video of Skinner showing his machine and figure out how the machine in the video was constructed and then maybe you can build a replication that works.

Now, it should be obvious that I think I am seeing things that most of you are missing. So, I need to open myself to your sticks and stones. If you would like to consider working with me or me working with you let me know by a personal message on this forum. If you live near me, I will consider it.
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  #513  
Old 10-10-2014, 03:37 AM
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Skinner comments

Skinner had multiple machines and I'm not just talking about different models that led him to his final machine. He had a machine elsewhere that he used to supply the energy to lathes, mills, etc... for the purposes of manufacturing landing gear mechanisms for planes at the Naval Air Station near his home during the war.

Not everything I know about the Skinner machine was gained by watching the original video or reading the old newspaper articles and as much as the points I already made were dismissed, anyone can take it or leave it.

Burnit, congrats on actually trying to build something - you're in the minority, but I did hear you say that you wanted a counter weight on the lower shaft, but that will defeat the asymmetry of the system. The shaft that you have the lower weight sitting on, your center of gravity is quite low for that. If you can raise that weight up and tie it up and test, you will find that you create a stronger gradient to make more use of gravitational input. The orbit you have is quite large and might do better being a bit smaller. So far your input crank is very circular - up to you if you want to explore the ellipse.

Shylo - the "always falling" concept I find has a couple meanings but they're actually directly related. For one, if the weight is disconnected from the shaft so it can freely spin, it will always fall to the incline. The other "always falling" is that in an elliptical orbit, the weight is at the highest height 50% between the narrow ends of the ellipse and lowest at the ends of the ellipse. So when it is pulsed back and forth, the height goes from a high point to a low point as it falls towards the ends of the ellipse. With circular orbit, the height remains fixed and it is only possible take advantage of one of the "always falling" principles but not both.
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  #514  
Old 10-10-2014, 10:33 PM
sprocket sprocket is offline
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I have been playing with this too, but on a micro-scale compared to what Burnit has produced. Basically I'm at the stage of examining what weight a small DC motor will lift at a given voltage, compared to what weight the same motor will achieve when tied to my 'Skinner Device'. So a long way to go.

My extremely crude setup uses one straight shaft, very like the setup described in Patrick Kelly's free-energy tome in fact! I mention this because I have also tried an extremely crude ellipse-approximation. In the below image, imagine that the shaft is sticking through a fixed & horizontal metal ring, about half the size of the "rotor-arm", and positioned so that when the motor causes the weight to rotate, the shaft lightly touches its inner edge for the full 360 degrees of its circular orbit. Now imagine rather than being fixed-horizontal, it is fixed at an angle. Also imagine that the shaft is not attached directly to the rotor-arm as below, but to a weak spring that is then attached to the rotor-arm. If you managed to imagine all that, treat yourself to a beer, you deserve it! Now when the motor causes the weight to rotate, it will prescribe an ellipse rather than a circle. Granted, its not a true ellipse as the ring's contact with the shaft will occur at different heights on the shaft. And there's all that friction as well... But it's close enough, and at low rotational speeds, I could see no advantage when the shaft followed this pseudo-elliptical path.
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  #515  
Old 10-14-2014, 05:07 PM
Burnit0017 Burnit0017 is offline
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hjy...ature=youtu.be

Hi, my first goal is to complete the build and generate some form of electricity at the output. Then I can identify the problem areas and fix as needed.


Sprocket thanks for posting. I am fabricating the same design. I look forward to your results.
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  #516  
Old 10-18-2014, 10:04 PM
Burnit0017 Burnit0017 is offline
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Drive train and gearbox, I still have to mount the PMA
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  #517  
Old 10-19-2014, 01:11 AM
shylo shylo is offline
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Nice work looking forward to the pmg connected.
artv
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  #518  
Old 10-19-2014, 01:23 AM
wayne.ct wayne.ct is offline
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Aaron's response to my comment last week

Thanks, Aaron, that made sense to me.
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  #519  
Old 10-19-2014, 06:25 AM
john_g john_g is offline
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Hi

Perhaps an easy demonstration of a similar principle for this device can be shown by the following. Position a small scooter in front of you, with both wheels on ground and the front-wheel nearest you, back-wheel pointing away and handle bars held upright. Drawing the handle bar towards you (pivoting on the front-wheel) will lift the back-wheel / body off the ground and a slight tilt of the handle bar to the left or right will make the scooter body fall towards you. As the body comes towards you will need to make a small adjustment to the position of the handle bar to tilt the rotation plane of the body so it misses the ground. You will find that a small pumping action will keep the body turning very quickly for a minimal input force. Do mind out for your ankles though - it's easy to get up some speed.

Here's a quick video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65ec...ature=youtu.be

Kind regards

John

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Last edited by john_g; 10-19-2014 at 09:44 AM. Reason: add video
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  #520  
Old 10-19-2014, 08:26 PM
Burnit0017 Burnit0017 is offline
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I did a simple test today. I took all the weights off and started the motor. The tilt plate just moved up and down and did not rotate. The output shaft is definitely powered by the weights falling toward the the center of gravity. No weights on the tilt plate, no rotation at the output shaft.

I still have to fabricate a few more parts to connect the PMA. It should be a few more days.
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  #521  
Old 10-22-2014, 12:00 AM
Burnit0017 Burnit0017 is offline
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMk-...3DgMk-1ouP-gg)


Hi, I just found this video.
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  #522  
Old 10-22-2014, 01:36 AM
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Bulgarian Skinner Replication?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnit0017 View Post
Sure looks like a bunch of similar builds. Circular and no disconnects, but he still claims 3.0 COP it looks like.

Google Translate says it is Bulgarian - here is the translation of the video description:

Petko Ganchev
News in New 12:00 - Demonstration and detection input and output energy of 52 seconds set time of 1 turnover and kinetic energy in the flywheel which has 81 watts to 49 watts and 2pozitsiya 1 position. Consumption is currently 1.2 Amps, Voltage 12 Volt -time oh, 74 seconds per revolution and aligned Power 1 turnover is 10.7 watts of electric motor / working with efficiency 60% because of the large reduction in revs /. 32 watts power produced / consumed 10.7 to 1 engine turnover difference .Coefficient 3.0 at 1.35 revolutions per second !!! On rising twice the speed of the flywheel - P grows squared and increases 4 times .. The radius is 30 cm, the weight of the flywheel is 25 kg
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  #523  
Old 10-22-2014, 08:07 AM
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Michael John Nunnerley Michael John Nunnerley is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
Sure looks like a bunch of similar builds. Circular and no disconnects, but he still claims 3.0 COP it looks like.

Google Translate says it is Bulgarian - here is the translation of the video description:

Petko Ganchev
News in New 12:00 - Demonstration and detection input and output energy of 52 seconds set time of 1 turnover and kinetic energy in the flywheel which has 81 watts to 49 watts and 2pozitsiya 1 position. Consumption is currently 1.2 Amps, Voltage 12 Volt -time oh, 74 seconds per revolution and aligned Power 1 turnover is 10.7 watts of electric motor / working with efficiency 60% because of the large reduction in revs /. 32 watts power produced / consumed 10.7 to 1 engine turnover difference .Coefficient 3.0 at 1.35 revolutions per second !!! On rising twice the speed of the flywheel - P grows squared and increases 4 times .. The radius is 30 cm, the weight of the flywheel is 25 kg
Hi Aaron, yes still the same, if you are going to replicate then do just that and not deviate from the original.

The circular input in there case actually changed from circular to a type of resonant elipse due to the frame not being up to strength, it moves a lot causing a non circular movement, look again at video.

This apart, they are not going to go anywhere not "replicating", there are specific parts to the machine that have to be done exactly as the original or no prize

regards

Mike
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  #524  
Old 10-22-2014, 06:43 PM
sprocket sprocket is offline
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Apparently no mention of "Skinner" in the video.

I'm playing with a similar setup as well (no upper-weight) and one thing I have noticed that seems quite important is that a means of dynamically altering the fall-angle is necessary, if not essential, for a practical system. So when the output is loaded and the weight's rotation slows, the driving-motor should mirror this slow-down while instantaneously increasing the fall-angle. Again, I'm only talking about the simple setup shown in the Bulgarian video.

Dave Q's meccano demo shows this nicely, although this fall-angle change is accomplished by the upper-weight. Also, note that as his motor runs at a constant speed, the whole setup gets hopelessly out of sync when the output is overloaded.
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  #525  
Old 10-22-2014, 08:01 PM
Burnit0017 Burnit0017 is offline
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Hi, I am starting to regret posting the Bulgarian video. It maybe a spoof. I am not out to spoof anyone. I have completed the gearbox and drive train, I still have to complete the wiring and than I can test. I will post results when available.



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  #526  
Old 10-22-2014, 11:46 PM
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Bulgarian video

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnit0017 View Post
Hi, I am starting to regret posting the Bulgarian video. It maybe a spoof. I am not out to spoof anyone. I have completed the gearbox and drive train, I still have to complete the wiring and than I can test. I will post results when available.



That's great you posted that link. It's relevant but not a real replication. What they're doing is what most people are doing.

Found the guy on Youtube, but not sure he speaks English. Looks like he might be a politician or something from some of his FB pics.
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  #527  
Old 10-22-2014, 11:47 PM
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wobbly frame

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael John Nunnerley View Post
Hi Aaron, yes still the same, if you are going to replicate then do just that and not deviate from the original.

The circular input in there case actually changed from circular to a type of resonant elipse due to the frame not being up to strength, it moves a lot causing a non circular movement, look again at video.

This apart, they are not going to go anywhere not "replicating", there are specific parts to the machine that have to be done exactly as the original or no prize

regards

Mike
Interesting on the unintentional ellipse from a wobbly frame - will have to look at it again.
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  #528  
Old 10-23-2014, 12:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnit0017 View Post
I did a simple test today. I took all the weights off and started the motor. The tilt plate just moved up and down and did not rotate. The output shaft is definitely powered by the weights falling toward the the center of gravity. No weights on the tilt plate, no rotation at the output shaft.

I still have to fabricate a few more parts to connect the PMA. It should be a few more days.
What I found with the stubborn up and down movement was the free bearing that is the output driver shaft has to much tension caused by alignment possibly, outdrive has to much friction or on the other end the shaft alignment center is not directly over center. This is the most critical element because at a point the center is vertical not offset.
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Last edited by h2ocommuter; 10-23-2014 at 12:25 AM. Reason: not cogent.
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  #529  
Old 10-24-2014, 08:29 PM
Burnit0017 Burnit0017 is offline
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zayy...ature=youtu.be

Hi, I did a manual test today with really poor results. Based on what I experienced I see no reason to continue this project. My analysis of how this configuration should work is wrong. I had 60 pounds on the tilt and there was no benefit, in fact it made it was more difficult to turn. I adjusted all the possible parameters that I could and my conclusion is there no way a small electric motor will make this configuration operate.
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Last edited by Burnit0017; 10-24-2014 at 08:50 PM.
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  #530  
Old 10-25-2014, 12:58 AM
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pictures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnit0017 View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zayy...ature=youtu.be

Hi, I did a manual test today with really poor results. Based on what I experienced I see no reason to continue this project. My analysis of how this configuration should work is wrong. I had 60 pounds on the tilt and there was no benefit, in fact it made it was more difficult to turn. I adjusted all the possible parameters that I could and my conclusion is there no way a small electric motor will make this configuration operate.
Would you mind posting a couple pics with a little distance from the machine so we can see the whole setup?
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  #531  
Old 10-25-2014, 06:14 AM
Burnit0017 Burnit0017 is offline
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Hi, I can post some pictures in the morning. I received some info from one other person that had tried a similar configuration and they had the results.
Under no load conditions the weight on the tilt plate does fall toward the changing rotational center of gravity. When placed under a load the configuration always operates in a stalled state.
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  #532  
Old 10-25-2014, 03:07 PM
Burnit0017 Burnit0017 is offline
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I hope this helps. This was a attempt at the Skinner simple Demo, not a replica.

The power output was trying to drive the input to the 1 to 6 gearbox and PMA with no load.
The 60 pound weight stalled, never achieved free fall.
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  #533  
Old 10-25-2014, 09:05 PM
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Basic Skinner

Burnit,

Ok, I see what you're doing. The weight you have on the lower shaft I think is quite a bit more than what Skinner has on each quarter of his full size machine. I think it is good to have the weight up towards the top to make it more top heavy and therefore will tap more gravitational potential.

I'd try to reduce the angle of the lower shaft in relation to the plate it is connected to and I would remove a bit of the weight - maybe the top 1 or 2 plates.

The distance from your circular driver's connection to the plate and the lower shaft's connection will make an orbit that looks like it may be about the same as what Skinner is doing on his full size build. If you reduce the angle - get the lower shaft closer to the circular driver, you'll have a smaller orbit. And with a bit less weight, will be more appropriate for your scale I think.

I don't know if the connector that couples the driving shaft and the lower shaft together is easily adjustable but if it is, I'd definitely reduce the angle.
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  #534  
Old 10-25-2014, 10:50 PM
Burnit0017 Burnit0017 is offline
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Hi, tried all your suggestions and still had poor results. I was not able to increase the RPM. When I tried the tilt would rise up and stop rotating, the circular drive would continue to rotate. The device stalled.

Maybe others will have different results. I look forward toward their findings.

I learned a lot and thank you for taking the time to look at my attempt.

I plan to continue with my other gravity assisted project. Thanks again.
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  #535  
Old 10-27-2014, 12:16 AM
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Burnit0017 I have one working. I'm using a 24v motor with gear reduction to drive the weights. I have 28lbs of weight. One 12" pulley on the drive shaft going to a 3" pulley on a DC motor as a generator. Right now it's 60 to 70 rpm and getting 3.49 V out of the generator. But the math is right. 3.49 V at 240 rpm is right for this motor/generator. it's a 36V 18amp motor at 2500 to 3000 rpm. Don't give up. Lower the weight and go with pulleys. You got too much friction going on. I'll post some videos when I get the 20" pulley going.
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  #536  
Old 10-27-2014, 06:23 PM
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Burnit0017,

can you try taking all the weight off the arm and tie the arm with rope in one position to hold it in one place. Then turn the top crank like you did in the last video. When you turn the crank the crank should go around easy but the bottom gear should not move at all. If the gear rotates your universal joint is not working correctly and from what I can see in the video this is what I think the problem could be.

Thanks.
Adam
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  #537  
Old 10-27-2014, 07:36 PM
Burnit0017 Burnit0017 is offline
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Hi, I have machined a flat surface on the sides of the universal joint so the set screws are not slipping. When the bottom gear does not turn the top crank does rotate and the result is the tilt plate does not rotate but rises up and then down. I was calling this a stalled condition.

I hope this helps.
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  #538  
Old 10-27-2014, 09:58 PM
shylo shylo is offline
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the plate

Hi Burn, When I stop the lower shaft and weight ( they're one unit)..The plate and upper weight and input shaft ,continue to move.
The up and down motion in the plate should be where the lower shaft is connected.(that is with it stalled).
When in operation that up and down disappear, I think it gets added to the output?
Still on the back burner for the moment, just things I've seen ,
artv
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  #539  
Old 10-27-2014, 11:21 PM
Burnit0017 Burnit0017 is offline
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Hi, I think the problems is the gearbox and PMA is too much load for the mechanical advantage. I can try to change the gearbox to a 1 to 3 ratio. That will reduce the load of the no load condition. It show take a few days. I will post results when available.

Thanks for info.

I can only give this one more change because I need the parts for another project. Sorry.
We will see how it goes. Thanks again.
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  #540  
Old 11-06-2014, 05:04 PM
Burnit0017 Burnit0017 is offline
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possible Solution to failed simple Skinner configuration - YouTube

Hi, I had poor results with all the Skinner Demo configurations I tried. I may have found a solution. It is similar but the center shaft has to remain stationary. The other problem is how to connect a PMA???? Suggestions welcome.
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