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  #31  
Old 01-24-2014, 01:21 PM
RAMSET RAMSET is online now
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Recombinig

Laurent

I did speak with a Physicist Friend who made me aware of this Recombining effect [So Did Menber "Wings"].
Apparently when HHO Gas is placed in this type of environment "paladium /platinum? " the Gas recombines and gives off heat in the process.[no flame involved]

I suppose the real question is are the fellows seeing more heat from this "recombine" effect then the power they used to seperate the molecules in the first place.
Could be checked with a resistive heating element comparison of the same power? ,that is why I suggested the "fixed Loss to ambient" test protocol.

very simple to check?

hopefully this will show more heat out then the power they are using to seperate the molecules in the first place.

I certainly hope so ........

thanks for all you do for this community, you are a truely wonderful person and very talented experimenter.

I am quite sure we will all be playing here soon.......

with all respect,

Chet
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  #32  
Old 01-24-2014, 05:10 PM
gotoluc gotoluc is offline
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Bonjour Laurent,

it looks like your cat may not have platinum and palladium plating (coating) looks like it's only a ceramic cat.
I don't think it can work without the platinum and palladium

Thanks for sharing

Luc
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  #33  
Old 01-24-2014, 05:33 PM
Gdez Gdez is offline
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Seems simple

Hey woopy,
I already have thought about how you would build a water jacket around a cat to heat water. That part doesn't seem complicated . But how would you transfer the heat from the open flame hho to the water jacket with out going through the cat.
The test you are talking about would be very easy ( Just boil the 1lb. water in each separate test, with the same input,, and time it, and you could figure out btu's).
Doing the test on the same device would not seem to work, unless your could figure out how to distribute the heat the same as from the open flame/ no flame idea.
I guess to put it simply, I don't think you will stick the open hho flame up into the cat, and get the results you are looking for.
It seems you would have to design an open flame boiler design that would match the heated surface area of the no flame cat test. This seems tricky, but would no doubt prove which is better.
I'll have to give it more thought.

I have materials to build a fuel cell, and I have built one already. I have been out of the hho loop lately, but without getting to of topic on this thread, would maybe someone recommend a design that would give the proper lpm needed (it seems you need as much as these guys are using in the video, from woopys experience). This is where I would have to start to experiment with this idea. Even if this doesn't show ou in the end, I wonder how it would stack up against gas and oil heating?
I'll be thinking on it,
greg
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  #34  
Old 01-24-2014, 06:36 PM
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more velocity??

Quote:
Originally Posted by gotoluc View Post
Bonjour Laurent,

it looks like your cat may not have platinum and palladium plating (coating) looks like it's only a ceramic cat.
I don't think it can work without the platinum and palladium

Thanks for sharing

Luc

All cats have the platinum and paladium....its not really visible, even when brand new. I've looked at brand new german cats and really couldn't see anything.

@Woopy..
Did you try burning off the carbon with the torch like In the video? If your torch is small, maybe the gas needs a certain velocity to obtain the affect. Maybe you could try small amount of compressed air to push the gas. Or just a bigger torch!!
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  #35  
Old 01-24-2014, 09:51 PM
woopy woopy is offline
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Hi all

just a small video of my experiment so far

CAT to LENR aproach 1 wmv - YouTube

good luck at all

Laurent
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  #36  
Old 01-24-2014, 10:40 PM
RAMSET RAMSET is online now
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one suggestion

Woopy

Nice video ,very clever adaptation for this purpose.

The Gas is much lighter than air [they had used it in early Blimps for this reason]
I imagine it coming out of the hose and shooting Skyward ,not into the cat?

also we may not see any observable reaction on the palladium /catalyst,however a good thermometer/thermocouple could pick up small localized heat reactions ?

or even infrared thermometer ?

thanks for sharing.

Chet
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  #37  
Old 01-24-2014, 10:54 PM
jdcproducts jdcproducts is offline
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Originally Posted by RAMSET View Post
Woopy

Nice video ,very clever adaptation for this purpose.

The Gas is much lighter than air [they had used it in early Blimps for this reason]
I imagine it coming out of the hose and shooting Skyward ,not into the cat?

also we may not see any observable reaction on the palladium /catalyst,however a good thermometer/thermocouple could pick up small localized heat reactions ?

or even infrared thermometer ?

thanks for sharing.

Chet
I think woopy may have a piece of substrate that is void of platinum or palladium. You should be able to see the surface of the substrate start to glow bright orange from the reaction without the need of a measurement device. Few guys have struck out the first time they tried it but here is a video from the other night in my work area. I've got a oem cat that has a good amount of noble metals and the reactions begins immediately with as little as 250 mL a minute of gas. Once I seal the system up and can control temps, I will run the test as it compares to resistive heating or using the incandescent bulb method. Right now its a crude experiment but promising so far. My camera skills isn't the best but I hope you guys get the idea. Really pleased with all the feedback.

H-Cat Demo / Test 2 Internal temps 6-900 degrees F + - YouTube
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  #38  
Old 01-25-2014, 12:58 AM
RAMSET RAMSET is online now
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Model or part number

JDC
Thanks for the nice Vid of that very obvious reaction.
Do you have a model number of the Cat you are using?
Or even the application it was made for [car and year]

thx
Chet
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  #39  
Old 01-25-2014, 01:11 AM
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Originally Posted by RAMSET View Post
JDC
Thanks for the nice Vid of that very obvious reaction.
Do you have a model number of the Cat you are using?
Or even the application it was made for [car and year]

thx
Chet
The only model or number I see is EM 70380. Looks like oem to me and not aftermarket. I will have to get with Neal to check on that. He also stated that high end imports have the most metal content. Big rigs or diesel trucks should have some heavy duty cats as well. The higher the cost in the retail world most likely the more noble metals the cat will contain. Its even possible to coat your own ceramics with Platinum or Palladium using a simple form of electroplating.

They also sale the catalytic heaters right on the shelf so it may be possible to modify those to run on hho. Loads of testing but one thing that seems to be a booger bear is the mind set of needing to pre-heat the material. Doesn't seem to be necessary. I'm also sure the wood stove "Catalytic Combustors" would be loaded down with noble metals because they cost a pretty penny brand new. There has got to be a data sheet somewhere that can be used to identify which cats have the most reactive metals.

Either way, there is a definite reaction taking place that seems to be yielding a substantial amount of heat. The fact that pure water is the only by product and no ventilation is necessary, this effect deserves further study and development. For me its simply the coolest way to heat with hho.
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  #40  
Old 01-25-2014, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woopy View Post
Hi all

just a small video of my experiment so far

CAT to LENR aproach 1 wmv - YouTube

good luck at all

Laurent

Woopy,
Have you tried to get a reaction with the other half of your cat? Here in the US a cat has two different substrates. Each performs a different function and I believe contains different mixtures of noble metals. Its worth a try.....

How a 3-Way Catalytic Converter Works « Mechteacher.com
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  #41  
Old 01-25-2014, 01:54 PM
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@JDC,
Are you using the inlet side or outlet side in the videos? Or does it work on both? Could be important for replication since there are two different substartes, platinum and rhodium vs platinum and paladium.
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  #42  
Old 01-25-2014, 04:20 PM
RAMSET RAMSET is online now
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Good input.....

Also as Justin mentioned these metals can be electroplated [cost effective Brushplated]
here is a UK supplier
Gold plating kits - Silver Electroplating Kits - Plating Equipment. [there are many others]

I had built brushplating machines for doing this years ago ,I probably have some Rhodium laying around.

@Justin
I could help you get settup with a brush plating machine if testing shows good results.[on loan]

a nice purpose built and plated screen manifold [test tube sized may work just fine?

I can send you a thermocouple thermometer to use in you Fixed loss to ambient test.[on loan]
also can be available to assist in that test as schedule permits.

the point being no part of this settup is beyond your grasp ,you and Neal or
anyone else working on this can play very easily in this area at the home work shop.

if you need me give me a ring.
thx
Chet
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  #43  
Old 01-25-2014, 10:21 PM
woopy woopy is offline
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Hi all

i finally got the awaited result

So i cut my Twingo CAT at the motor entry side and than i cleaned a portion of the very dark surface with a litle gaz burner, and than applied the very small HHO jet and i got the catalytic reaction.

CAT to LENR approach 2 wmv - YouTube

So now i know that my CAT is a good one, i will make further testing.

Thank's to JDC and Hydrofuelincanada for the video which showed me the way to go.

And now i have to spend some time to think what to do with this new experiment.

Stirling perhaps ??

Good luck at all

Laurent
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  #44  
Old 01-25-2014, 10:36 PM
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Nice work Woopy!!
So reduction catalyst it is.

I have a box somewhere of the old pellets from a big old cat. I should find them and break out the old hho cell.
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  #45  
Old 01-25-2014, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmazz850 View Post
@JDC,
Are you using the inlet side or outlet side in the videos? Or does it work on both? Could be important for replication since there are two different substartes, platinum and rhodium vs platinum and paladium.
Both sides work at least on the cat I have but gas has to be pumped in on both sides to activate the reaction. If you pump gas into one side, then through the catalytic combustion process, most if not all of the gas is converted back to water, so once the second substrate is up for the reaction, there is no gas left.

My plan is to seal and pump gas on each side simultaneously, drill a breather and condensation drain in the middle bottom of the cat. If I can control the reaction, I can then use the entire exterior of the cat as a heat exchanger to blow air over it or dunk in water.

Another clever idea was to bore a hole in the middle of the substrate and pass a copper water pipe through. Seal both ends in the same fashion and pump gas through the remaining substrate. Insulate the exterior of the cat so all the heat is focused in on the copper pipe. Should work, just a matter of engineering.
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  #46  
Old 01-25-2014, 10:56 PM
jdcproducts jdcproducts is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RAMSET View Post
Also as Justin mentioned these metals can be electroplated [cost effective Brushplated]
here is a UK supplier
Gold plating kits - Silver Electroplating Kits - Plating Equipment. [there are many others]

I had built brushplating machines for doing this years ago ,I probably have some Rhodium laying around.

@Justin
I could help you get settup with a brush plating machine if testing shows good results.[on loan]

a nice purpose built and plated screen manifold [test tube sized may work just fine?

I can send you a thermocouple thermometer to use in you Fixed loss to ambient test.[on loan]
also can be available to assist in that test as schedule permits.

the point being no part of this settup is beyond your grasp ,you and Neal or
anyone else working on this can play very easily in this area at the home work shop.

if you need me give me a ring.
thx
Chet
I appreciate your generosity. The feedback and help we have received from the community has been awesome.

I will certainly be in contact if I decide to go down the road of electroplating.

My main focus and controlling is containing the reaction in a off the shelf automobile catalytic converter so that replication can be done using off the shelf parts. I'm also trying to stabilize the reaction so I can move forward with some solid efficiency tests. Right now its looks very promising but we know we are losing a lot of efficiency through our crude experiments, so we are working on insulating and sealing up the cat so our tests will be accurate. Thanks again for all the feedback. Woopy finally got the results he was looking for so I'm happy he has validated the effect. His work with the compact LENR water reactors has been top notch. I hope he can find some anomalies with this effect as well.
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  #47  
Old 01-26-2014, 07:25 AM
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Netica Netica is offline
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Just a thought,

I wonder if the effect would still occur if the catalytic material was submerged in water or even half in water and the HHO bubbles were to bubble through from the underside then heating the water directly and preventing any kind of flashback.

I'm not experimenting with this but just thinking about it. The catalytic material may be ineffective when wet. I don't know.
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  #48  
Old 01-26-2014, 08:24 AM
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Clarifying

I definitely should have been more clear. Thank you for pointing that out. They are using catalytic converters to create this reaction of heat from the hho hitting the catalysts in the catalytic converter. The precious metals are the catylist. Graphitic Carbon Nitride is a non metallic catalyst made cheaply from urea crystals. A high grade catalytic converter will have more precious metals like platinum thus giving better results when trying to get hho to react to the catalytic converter. Using Graphic Carbon Nitride on whatever substrate you choose would cut cost significantly. Some people are not getting very good results on using catalytic converters, just thought I might give them some info on other catalysts out there for their running hho over the catalytic converter experiments.
I hope that clarifies my last post a little bit. Happy experimenting.

Travis
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  #49  
Old 01-26-2014, 05:41 PM
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Hi all

just made a lot of test today.

It seems that the reaction works everywhere on the substrate.

I cut some small portion and even reduced some to powder.



The best result seems to happen on the flat surfaces (i cut the honeycomb in the longitudinal direction, so i get some flat surface)

One thing that is very interesting is that when i place the HHO torch (without flame ) at 1 cm above a flat surface , the HHO jet create a dot of reaction that become very fast red hot than almost white hot, and than i get the flashback and the flame appears at the torch. And at this moment, without moving the torch (same position at 1 cm ), the dot is much less hot (only lightly red hot ).
So it seems that the flamless reaction is more efficient than the pure HHO flame.
This answers one of my question in the previous post, but need to be confirmed by further testing......so LENR perhaps ???? youp youp !! Don't shoot me down !!

Than i tried to inject moisture in the cat honeycomb, and than i could not get the reaction on the wet portion. So i think it will not work with my vapor from my LENR reactor. But who knows ??

Voila for today

Laurent
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  #50  
Old 01-26-2014, 10:11 PM
woopy woopy is offline
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And here a small video of what i am testing

I suppose that the on and off of the gaz output is due to some water bubbles from the flash back arrestor and the needle-injector. But for this demo this little problem is very helfull.

CAT to LENR approach 3 wmv - YouTube

good luck at all

laurent
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  #51  
Old 01-26-2014, 11:35 PM
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Heat Transfer Ideas

Thinking of ways to transfer the heat into water to use.

Another idea I just had is to place some of the catalytic material into smaller pipes maybe 1/2 inch to 1 inch (even smaller or bigger) depending on scale and whatever works best. Then placing the pipes in water. (like in a steam boiler either sideways, upright or even an angle).

Having many of these smaller reactors within the water may heat the water more efficiently. Getting the most out of the heat produced.
I don't know if copper will work, stainless tubing may be good as it will handle the heat better and corrosion resistant.

netica
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Old 01-26-2014, 11:41 PM
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Woopy

It would be interesting to see a small catalyst placed into a metal tube capped on the top and feed the gas directly down through a small tube. Would this eliminate the oxygen and prevent a flame, giving better results?
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Old 01-27-2014, 02:07 AM
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Thinking of ways to transfer the heat into water to use.

Another idea I just had is to place some of the catalytic material into smaller pipes maybe 1/2 inch to 1 inch (even smaller or bigger) depending on scale and whatever works best. Then placing the pipes in water. (like in a steam boiler either sideways, upright or even an angle).

Having many of these smaller reactors within the water may heat the water more efficiently. Getting the most out of the heat produced.
I don't know if copper will work, stainless tubing may be good as it will handle the heat better and corrosion resistant.

netica
Sounds like some great ideas. There would be benefit to designing smaller pipes with catalyst metals inside. Then pass gas through each pipe, making it easier to diffuse the gas inside each pipe. One issue would be exhausting the steam or water vapor out.

You cannot get the ceramic coated substrates wet or the reaction suffers and may not even work at all. I tried dunking my catalytic converter under water for some tests and it took two days to dry out enough so that I could get the reaction going again.

This reaction will yield water and or steam so we must engineer ways of removing the water out of the reactor. Lots of ways of doing it.

Don't forget all the corporate Cold Fusion or Lenr research that is going on is based on hydrogen catalytic reactors. We really have something here with this discovery. Its just a matter of all of us working together to refine it and build it into something practical.

I'm working on insulating my catalytic converter and diffusing the gas over the entire substrate. Hopefully I can throttle the heat up and down inside the cat, but there are tons of ways to go about testing and using this process.
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Old 01-27-2014, 05:06 PM
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Hello Everyone,

I am really enjoying this topic and feel that it deserves much research! Would this work for testing the effect? I would love to get a parts list together so others have a clear path to get one set up to test and post results on.

Magnaflow 99006HM Universal Catalytic Converter (Non CARB compliant) : Amazon.com : Automotive

Thank you!

-Altrez
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Old 01-27-2014, 05:29 PM
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Hello Everyone,

I am really enjoying this topic and feel that it deserves much research! Would this work for testing the effect? I would love to get a parts list together so others have a clear path to get one set up to test and post results on.

Magnaflow 99006HM Universal Catalytic Converter (Non CARB compliant) : Amazon.com : Automotive

Thank you!

-Altrez
Thanks for your interest. I am sure that catalytic converter will produce some results. The key is finding one with the most platinum and palladium deposits as possible. Most of the manufacturers do not list that information with the items description. Magnaflow is known for high quality exhaust system parts so it should be a safe purchase.
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Old 01-27-2014, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdcproducts View Post
Thanks for your interest. I am sure that catalytic converter will produce some results. The key is finding one with the most platinum and palladium deposits as possible. Most of the manufacturers do not list that information with the items description. Magnaflow is known for high quality exhaust system parts so it should be a safe purchase.
jdcproducts,

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post. I will order that soon. Do you have a recommendation for a HHO system to attach to it? I am looking for something thats already constructed.

I have found a few on ebay that output 6Lpm so that should be enough to start with. I just want to be sure before I make the investment.

Thanks!

-Altrez
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Old 01-27-2014, 06:45 PM
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I have been doing a bit of research and ran across this old article about the process.

Platinum Catalyzed Reaction of Hydrogen and Oxygen

and this one:

Surface catalysis of the hydrogen-oxygen reaction on platinum at low temperatures - Leder - 2004 - AIChE Journal - Wiley Online Library

Cool stuff! It looks like its been around a long time.

-Altrez
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Old 01-27-2014, 09:38 PM
woopy woopy is offline
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Hi all

While i was testing some different parts of my Twingo cat, i stumble upon this

CAT to LENR approach4 wmv - YouTube

really cool, it seems that we can get the " sunlight " in the cat

I don't know if you guys have already tried it but it seems that when we approach the torch very near to the catalyst almost/ or touching it, the reaction seems to intensify very much. I don't know if there is a flame or not at the torch, or a mixing of both , but i am very impressed. The reaction clearly melt the ceramic and some time i got the torch glued in the ceramic and after i retired , the torch is red hot, and if i insist, i am sure that the torch will melt also.

Youp i am puzzled here

OK good luck at all

Laurent
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Old 01-28-2014, 12:31 AM
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Hello Everyone,

I have been reading about Platinum Catalyzed Reaction of Hydrogen and Oxygen all day. Its a very interesting concept. With the Cats we have a ready made reactor

Thank you jdcproducts for posting this. It should make this so simple for a lot of replications to take place. The catalytic converter has everything needed to start small. I do think you can make a way better reactor but this small one should in theory lead to a very easy COP > 1

I will be addeing thermoelectric modules on my build to capture the heat that is produced. I will take every type of mesument that I can and post all the results.

Time to have some fun

-Altrez
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Old 01-28-2014, 12:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woopy View Post
Hi all

While i was testing some different parts of my Twingo cat, i stumble upon this

CAT to LENR approach4 wmv - YouTube

really cool, it seems that we can get the " sunlight " in the cat

I don't know if you guys have already tried it but it seems that when we approach the torch very near to the catalyst almost/ or touching it, the reaction seems to intensify very much. I don't know if there is a flame or not at the torch, or a mixing of both , but i am very impressed. The reaction clearly melt the ceramic and some time i got the torch glued in the ceramic and after i retired , the torch is red hot, and if i insist, i am sure that the torch will melt also.

Youp i am puzzled here

OK good luck at all

Laurent
Laurent Great work!!

Try this. Take a ball of cat materiel about the size of a marble suspend it in a ring made from a wire coat hanger. Use your torch to hit it from underneath. You will have a mini sun! At that point you can capture energy with some solar panels. I know it will work

The marble size mixture now has become a fuel pellet. Should be really neat to see!

-Altrez
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