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  #1  
Old 01-11-2014, 03:03 AM
barbosi barbosi is offline
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Just magnetic fields

I open this topic to discuss magnetic fields, mainly to identify misconceptions coming from assumptions made during experiments or while reading the textbooks. “Just” from the title is not used with the meaning of “only” but rather as “correct” or “proper”. It is my conviction that only a proper understanding and clarity of all phenomena involved will give a solid ground in developing novel devices.

I invite everyone interested in the topic to analyze the information presented and the conclusions I reached. If there are contrary or complementary opinions my wish is to discuss them and if possible to clarify them with simple tests. My request however is to take your time, analyze whatever aspect fireworks in your mind and keep it short with questions or reveling new implications.

In my presentation I will use different sources without necessarily endorsing them. I'll use only the illustrations and any pertinent statement.
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Old 01-11-2014, 03:03 AM
barbosi barbosi is offline
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It all began with using iron filings to describe the shape of magnetic lines. The shape assumed when sprinkled on the side of magnet bar is well known. But when it was sprinkled on top of the poles, the accumulation was not offering the same amount of detail. That until few years ago, when a fellow researcher (pinestone from overunity forum helped by his friend John Shearer) published some interesting pictures.
He used a grid in the shape of a “star” projected on a CRT monitor:

Figure 1.


Then approached a magnet bar and touched the monitor first with South pole:

Figure 2.


...followed by the North pole:

Figure 3.


Now we can see that contrary to the iron filings (which were too coarse and also being magnetized, interacted with each other), the magnetic fields of the magnet exhibit also a spiral shape which is different from a pole to another. This kind of information is not present in the textbooks, as far as I know. I heard people saying it (derived probably from Rodin's theories), but now we have a simple test setup to prove it.

That was the first revelation and I'll let you the pleasure to associate clock-wise and anti-clock-wise spiral shape to each pole.

As a late addition, from the same brilliant researchers I present a side view of a bar magnet:

Figure 3a:



Please notice the equatorial plane where all magnetic field lines emerge.

Also in the history of magnetism research, trying to determine the characteristics of the magnetic field, people used magnetic needles:

Figure 4.


DC current generated magnetic fields

Same iron filings were used in the research of the magnetic field around a straight conductor.
However, much more information surfaced when the magnetic needles were used:

Figure 5.


Note that the direction of electric current is just a convention. Also the direction of magnetic field lines adopted a convention (N-S) which later for no particular reason changed to arrows:

Figure 6.


Of course there is no pole leading nor trailing and yet a “direction” was adopted and by doing so, the rule of the right hand was adopted:

Figure 7.


By this decision it was created the opportunity for anyone to make an assumption, that the magnetic field is rotating. I could not find anywhere such statement, but looking at the arrows along the field lines, implicitly one would assume the rotation. Lets make now clearly the distinction, the magnetic field is not rotating, it just assumes the round shape.

What are those silly arrows doing on the drawings is anyone's guess, but I believe textbooks were cooked to make sense of Laplace:

Figure 8.


And so a new theory applied to motors has been born. While this was useful from engineering point of view, the joke with the arrows showing the direction of magnetic field extended to the magnets too:

Figure 9.


Until now I am not aware of anything flying from the North pole and arriving to South pole. In fact, I feel being in agreement with many that actually some distinct field lines fly from each pole. To date, orthodox research did not prove this but anyone can take the lead here with suggestions. Scientific establishment does not state anything like that and of course there is no decent explanation nor any demonstration about the reason of drawing arrows.

Another reason might be the fact that to the magnetic field B it was associated the quality “force” also with direct implications in motor engineering. It looks and feels like a force, it presents torque like a force, it must be a force.
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Old 01-11-2014, 03:04 AM
barbosi barbosi is offline
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As Eric Laithwaite said in numerous occasions, any association with mechanical elements is always useful, but up to a point. In my opinion, any force may be represented as a vector and as any vector can compose with others of the same nature. If two equal vectors have opposite direction, they cancel themselves. This is not the case of magnetic field.

When a coil is energized, a magnetic field is present as bellow:

Figure 10.


Magnetic fields present around two adjacent turns are opposed one to another and as “forces” they should cancel each other.

From What is a magnetic field? we can observe the picture of magnetic field between two wires:

Figure 11.


along with following observations:
Quote:
This shows the magnetic field strength around the two wires. Current is flowing into both wires. Notice how the magnetic field is slightly stronger on the side of the wire away from the other wire? This is showing that the magnetic field around a wire affects how the current flows in neighboring wires.
The picture is coming from a simulator which assumes the field cancellation.
In reality however, the field is rather strengthening, same or similar effect being observed in so called “super magnets” by John Bedini (when two similar poles of two magnets are pressed against each other). In addition, “The wires are attracted to each other, and will pull themselves closer together.” as per What is a magnetic field?

Resuming, not only that they behave as forces although they may obey F=m*a (yet we don't know for sure), but what is strange is that the forces are not in straight line between wires adding as vectors, but rather some “circular” forces that still should cancel each other. Also, when interacting with needle magnets, magnetic field won't put them on circular motion as any respectable force acting upon mass, unless relative motion occurs first. Same with permanent magnets acting upon electron beam on CRT monitor (Figures 2 and 3).

Conclusions:
  • Magnetic field around a wire as in Figure 5 does not rotate, it just assumes the circular shape, the arrows are meaningless.
  • Magnetic field between two adjacent turns of a solenoid is not canceled, but rather intensified.
  • Magnetic field interacts with electric field (Figures 2 and 3), in fact a more intricate interaction is already established by main stream science.
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Old 01-11-2014, 11:03 PM
barbosi barbosi is offline
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Addendum:

Lets assume we have a very short wire with an electric current passing through it. The magnetic field will be present in layers. One single layer is shown next:

Figure 12.


Obviously the conductor is in the middle of the central “pillar”. The oval shapes have also the bipolarity represented by the black and white borders. The only misrepresentation is the position of the ovals, they are shown in vertical rows, instead they should be “twisted” as in a vortex. If you remember Figures 2 and 3, the individual twist direction of each pole should apply here.
Speaking of layers, one can imagine how dense are the ovals on an inner layer and how rarefied are on an outer layer. People call these “Magnetic Flux” and is greater near the conductor and weaker when farther away.
By now, you should be used to the illusion of rotation in Figure 12. The real magnetic field same as in the 2D picture, is static. Nothing is in motion. For an external observer, the slightest eye movement he makes, the magnetic field appears to be in motion. Taking now the perspective of the central conductor, “he” knows that all is motionless. “He” knows (and we should know too) also that all exterior configurations are a consequence of conductor's status. One example (and is not unique): more current passing through, more dense magnetic layers.

If we imagine now two adjacent conductors part of the same coil, we have Figure 12 for each cross section on any point of the two turns. Function of the current passing through coil and the distance between the turns, we have a sense of the density of the ovals (is increasing with the increase of current). Like two inner tube wheels forced locked to stay close one to another in the same position, while and air flow (current) is inflating them. They are more dense in the same limited space. There is no cancellation of magnetic field between turns, but rather an increased density.

And that's all for now just using DC current.

AC current generated magnetic fields

The situation with the AC does not change much, except that the magnetic field changes in time its intensity based only on the amount of current flowing in circuit.

The same principle applies also to the whole coil, the most dramatic change being perceived inside the coil. With the addition of a ferromagnetic core, this change is even more dramatic.

Considering two opposite coils only like in a stator of an induction motor, by varying a the current in the manner that in one coil there is more energized that another, a ferromagnetic probe will be attracted by the coil with more magnetic flux.

In a slightly more complex configuration, we can achieve the effect shown here:

Figure 13.


What should be noticed is the illusion of rotation as result of change in magnetic fields intensity at different moments in time. The magnetic field does not rotate. All magnetic fields are static but by varying their intensity through the intensity of currents, they simulate the motion.

Another simulation:

Figure 14.


Each individual “ball” is not rotating but rather has a linear motion:

Figure 15.


Interestingly enough, when we are aware that we are witnessing an “optical illusion” we cannot be deceived. We say that is a trick played to the mind and as result the mind is fooled. Funny thing that a real apparatus can be built on the same principle, and we know that real motion can be achieved. It looks like matter can be fooled too.
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Old 01-12-2014, 03:38 AM
barbosi barbosi is offline
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Intermission:

I knew about Professor Eric Laithwaite for a long time from his public presentations of gyroscopes. I made the assumption he was a Mechanical Engineer due to his diligence in presenting the incredible properties of a wheel in his speed rotation.
Many years ago a friend pointed about the high probability of error when one makes an assumption. Since then, I still learn how right he was. As it turned out, Professor Laithwaite was an Electrical Engineer. A very sharp inquiring mind, questioning everything, assuming nothing, which was marginalized by slowly eroding public confidence in “The Science Establishment”.

I would like to point out several things in one of his presentation “Magnetic River” made in 1975:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI_HFnNTfyU

Embracing the style of a show man, he made it easy to learn a few things which for most were and still are incredible.

He starts the show with a little trick which should be a lesson in not trusting any assumption: introduction to the wonders of permanent magnets.
At minute 7:20 it baffles with some floating aluminum rings. The bigger and heavier gets the aluminum stack, the higher they float.
At 8:00 he presents a copper cylinder device to probe the motion of the magnetic field. But what makes one wonder is the properties of aluminum actually.
At 8:15, he makes the official statement “We [The Establishment] call that upward sweeping something THE TRAVELING MAGNETIC FIELD
At 10:12 minute mark, he present a mechanical contraption meant to simulate the wave of magnetic field. At 10:25 he states “We got the IMPRESSION of something traveling along … But NOTHING it's traveling along”. How brave is that? IN THEIR FACE!

It's sad that he had to be punished for ideas that were potentially capable of scientific advancement.
It's the ignorance that keeps us chained. As I cannot fight world ignorance, I only can apologize for my rudeness when I thought I could slap my truth in other's face.
I can fight my own ignorance though. This thread is a map of my own road bumps I met and the future ones. By sharing this I only hope to provoke other fellow researchers to lucid thinking as exercise of the mind.

And now intermission's music: OneRepublic-Counting Stars

PS: In the spirit of fairness and true honesty, I have to tell you that in all this presentation, the timeless inspired ideas (as I consider them) are not even mine. I just padded them with my understandings. All it came to me as I consider it as a heavenly wonderful gift, so now I give it back to all of you inquiring minds with the hope you will be inspired same way I was. Make most out of it, and make your own gifts.
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Old 01-12-2014, 08:51 AM
Cadman Cadman is offline
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Barbosi,

Interesting thread, thank you.

In your post #2 regarding the crt images of the two magnet poles you say “the magnetic fields of the magnet exhibit also a twist which is different from a pole to another”, and that there is a “clock-wise and anti-clock-wise spin to each pole”.

Actually there is no difference in the direction of the twist from pole to pole on the crt screen, it is the same direction. What makes it appear to be opposite is the 180 degree reversal of the perspective between the two images. The magnet was flipped end for end.
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Old 01-12-2014, 07:57 PM
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Twist

Quote:
Originally Posted by barbosi View Post
As Eric Laithwaite said in numerous occasions, any association with mechanical elements is always useful, but up to a point. In my opinion, any force may be represented as a vector and as any vector can compose with others of the same nature. If two equal vectors have opposite direction, they cancel themselves. This is not the case of magnetic field.

When a coil is energized, a magnetic field is present as bellow:

Figure 10.


Magnetic fields present around two adjacent turns are opposed one to another and as “forces” they should cancel each other.

From What is a magnetic field? we can observe the picture of magnetic field between two wires:



Conclusions:
  • Magnetic field around a wire as in Figure 5 does not rotate, it just assumes the circular shape, the arrows are meaningless.
  • Magnetic field between two adjacent turns of a solenoid is not canceled, but rather intensified.
  • Magnetic field interacts with electric field (Figures 2 and 3), in fact a more intricate interaction is already established by main stream science.
in figure 10 if you note the alignment of the horizontal arrows they are in a mode of attraction while the vertical arrows are in the mode of repulsion hence the wire pulls one way and the fields push in another. and if you note when you force a large amount of energy into a confined space like a bullet in a rifle the effect can be quite impressive. But, back to the area of repulsion. Why would anyone suggest the forces would cancel each other out. Holding a north to a north gets deflection not cancelation, this is why magnetic domains exist otherwise magnets could not exist above the nanoscale or (conceptually) below the entire ominverse being a laterally alignied magnetic toriod.

Flux is a mystery on one hand we are comfortable with it and it is in every modern device we use, on the other hand it behaves as if it where suspended between this universe and another. It behaves as a particle and a wave form. Above all it seems to only go in the back door and come out the front. Leedskalin from his writtings thought that what we call flux was the magnets themselves and not the matter that contained them. Leedskalnin's Writings: MAGNETIC CURRENT


In figures 2 and 3 you point out rotation yet in figure five you deny that rotation can exist. Please explain?
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Old 01-12-2014, 08:45 PM
barbosi barbosi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadman View Post
Barbosi,

Interesting thread, thank you.

In your post #2 regarding the crt images of the two magnet poles you say “the magnetic fields of the magnet exhibit also a twist which is different from a pole to another”, and that there is a “clock-wise and anti-clock-wise spin to each pole”.

Actually there is no difference in the direction of the twist from pole to pole on the crt screen, it is the same direction. What makes it appear to be opposite is the 180 degree reversal of the perspective between the two images. The magnet was flipped end for end.
Cadman,
Thank you for the interests in the topic, your involvement means a lot for me as it made me ask myself is it true or is an illusion? And that doubt made me to act.
When in doubt I try to make a mental experiment, as the mind is the most affordable lab anyone has. Sometimes I have trouble and I try to make a small practical experiment. Being a visual individual, I let the sense of sight to aid my thoughts but not to lead them. In other words I try to take into consideration a quote of Rita Mae Brown: “Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment.”

I pay particular attention to simple experiments which may reveal simple mechanisms. I depart from the idea that there is no simple mechanism that applies to small things and does not apply to big things. One simple example is how temperature affects magnetism of a bar magnet. For that matter, there are old researches I can use so I have no need to remake the experiment. Those researches led to what we know today as Curie temperature. And that applies to small things – the magnets. When we go to big things, we hear that Earth is a big magnet and its magnetism comes from the iron core which is at thousands degrees temperature. Curie's conclusions do not apply anymore and instead of looking for the missing link, we throw all in the trash bin and develop other new theories. To me, it does not make any sense.

I believe that in our research, all thought flows coming from an idea must be followed through inside and outside of the element that present a phenomena. The inside and outside are related and any discrepancy must have a cause. That should be considered too (I would go to the extend to say it has to be MOSTLY considered), not discarded because it does not match our model.

With regard to your observation Cadman, I invite you and anyone interested to take the effort, grab a ball, an apple, anything round, mark to diametrical opposed points and “rubber stamp” the shapes revealed in Figures 2 and 3. And that to reveal only the “outside”, but it will do it. To reveal the “inside” too, more suitable would be a torus, something like this:



You may use markers, 2 colors if you wish, assign one hemisphere for N and one for S, draw lines like in Figure 2 and 3 extending them inside and outside, then observe the lines.
After drawing conclusions, the question might follow: is there any resemblance in field lines with a conductor carrying an electric current? Any difference?
But again, an apple will do it well. Be the Newton of present day!

And thanks again Cadman for your comment which made me act and remove doubt from my mind. By doing so I discovered another wonderful thing. For the first time I've seen graphically the connection with Rodin's torus. Before I thought that was just a speculation with numbers and now I have a new direction to explore. That was because of your comment and again I thank you.

Edit:
Hrothgar,
Part of the answers you will find if you allow yourself to play with two apples. Draw field lines and observe how do they look on both sides at proximity of opposed poles then like poles. For other aspects I have to take time to read throughly and understand the concern. Now I am caught in some domestic issues.
Nevertheless, I thank you too as you show interest and doubt. I am sure that sharing our thoughts, together we can find answers and connections to ideas we did not understand before.
Soon.
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Old 01-12-2014, 10:18 PM
Cadman Cadman is offline
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Ha ha, barbosi I cannot tell from your response whether you agree with me or not

So I invite you to perform this visual experiment. Take a clear piece of plastic or glass, I used a sandwich bag, and draw the center magnet circle with twisted lines coming out just like the crt image figure 2 and mark that side as S. Now turn the bag over and mark that side N as it will look like figure 3. This is why I say they are the same direction.
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Old 01-13-2014, 04:01 AM
barbosi barbosi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrothgar View Post
Why would anyone suggest the forces would cancel each other out. Holding a north to a north gets deflection not cancelation, ...
It looks we are in agreement here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrothgar View Post
In figures 2 and 3 you point out rotation yet in figure five you deny that rotation can exist. Please explain?
Instead of word “rotation” I prefer to use term “curved”, because “rotation” can be deceiving for some people, implying motion, while curved, circle, spiral implies the shape only. In the case of permanent magnet bar (as in those figures) the shape is spiral, while in the case of wire attached to a current source the shape is circle.
I see though what you mean and the terms “twist” and “spin” I used may be deceiving too, so I changed them to “spiral shape”. Thanks for pointing that out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadman View Post
Ha ha, barbosi I cannot tell from your response whether you agree with me or not

So I invite you to perform this visual experiment. Take a clear piece of plastic or glass, I used a sandwich bag, and draw the center magnet circle with twisted lines coming out just like the crt image figure 2 and mark that side as S. Now turn the bag over and mark that side N as it will look like figure 3. This is why I say they are the same direction.
I am glad we got in this confusion, as I see it. You see, in their shows magicians use mirrors and transparent materials to deceive public. Once you use the apples the illusion dissipates.
I took my time for taking pictures that I think may clarify the issue and I attached them for your convenience.

The reason I invite everyone to perform such simple tests is that:
  • Unfortunately my quota for uploading pictures is limited and soon I may run out (I may need to check on this). I prefer links to pictures from the web because I can do a better page layout and also because often people have more artistic vision. With regret, I am not a big fan of Faceboox, and other media sharing sites so...
  • Everyone has the model in their hands, analyzing from any angle. Any new idea should arise, it could be shared with the rest of us.

Lets look first at the picture I attached. You'll see with different colors (no direct relationship between color and pole designation) field lines as in figure 2 and 3 (top shots). In the side view you'll see the inner and outer equatorial plane with the junction of the field lines. Why do they look like they are discontinuous? "Mirror" like. What is that special with with that equatorial plane?

And the really good part with the transparent material you used: If you get that transparent (let it be photographic film) between two opposed poles of two magnet bars and do project lights from the poles towards it, could you see the shadow reflected and having the same shape? "Mirror" like. Just like on your sandwich bag. Can you see how an erroneous situation is not a failure after all? Is like in that joke, even a kick in the @$$ leads to a step forward.

Considering you have a picture of the each shadows on individual films and superimpose the films in such way the field lines are interlaced, you can visualize how they could have the condition to lock on each other. Pretty much like in the movie Avatar when the hair braids of the blue humanoids “hugged” with the mane of the “horses”.
By approaching the two magnets it is possible in this configuration to unite them.

Now the same mental game for like poles: can you see how the field lines cannot interlace but rather they intersect and block each other the attempt of joining them?

All that because the field lines act like forces. Are they forces in the Newtonian sense?

Thank you all for your insights.
Attached Images
File Type: png torus.png (111.5 KB, 25 views)
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Old 01-13-2014, 06:15 AM
barbosi barbosi is offline
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I just want to share with you an old burning question I asked my self.
We know that matter affects us:
  • Sun makes all life possible on Earth
  • Pillow makes some people dream and rest better (or not )
  • Spices enhance food
  • Stick hurts sometimes
  • etc,

Does space (the empty 3D perceived nothingness where rebel space dust, suns, and planets, and moons all arranged in galaxies, all coexist together with pillows, spices, sticks and etc.), so does space has any influence on us?
If yes, how? If no, why?
It's just my unresting question and I don't expect an answer, because I know it's only me to wander for it.

Peace!
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Old 01-13-2014, 07:02 AM
indio007 indio007 is offline
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where does this phenomena fit into your thinking ?
introducing the magnetic hose

The Spiral is quite interesting. There are many other variables associated with the crt that could cause it.
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Old 01-13-2014, 04:49 PM
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NANOMAGNETICS.US

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Old 01-13-2014, 11:56 PM
barbosi barbosi is offline
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Hello indio and welcome to my fascination with magnetism, although I would love in exchange to hear about individual experiences of everyone visiting this thread. Related to magnetism of course. I won't protest if anyone would jump in discussing electric fields in relationship to the magnetic ones. I don't want to be the only “leader” of the thread. I feel like drained after just answering questions.
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Originally Posted by indio007 View Post
where does this phenomena fit into your thinking ?
introducing the magnetic hose

With the link you shared, I am not sure what to say. Maybe because there is one buzz word which may arouse some people but not me: Quantum. I really enjoy simple things and I don't understand why people should invent new words for old phenomena. I can see some times clouds in the sky, like sitting on a glass ceiling and I can see how an upward pressure can hold them up there. I can “see” layers of magnetism behaving the same way. But to admit that all is because of a constant... A constant is a number and no matter how important might be, it does not explain the “why”. It is like telling the circle is that way because of Pi. And Plank's explanations to me look like stating what was noticed.

I see there have been used two layers of ferromagnetic material, it looks like they want to capitalize on the layer structure which occurs naturally.

I thank you for pointing to this article, and will have to spend time, serious time if I see there is something I could use. I don't always get it and especially for the first time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by indio007 View Post
The Spiral is quite interesting. There are many other variables associated with the crt that could cause it.
I always try to consider all variables and I have to tell the truth, I am not Zeus and I have to live up to my human condition. If you think there is a catch that I might have missed, please let me know. All I was impressed was the simplicity of experiment and the focalized fascicle coming from beyond the luminescent surface which is by design orthogonal to the screen.
Also, but I did not mention before, because of the tree-color dot structure, the composed resultant wave creates colored structure with great resemblance to cymatics structures.
But you may be right, it might be an illusion afterall. Can you elaborate if you think it worth?

Thanks.
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Old 01-14-2014, 12:03 AM
barbosi barbosi is offline
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Cool stuff, especially when they put into the mix the idea of "lens".

Do you have some insights?

Thank you.
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Old 01-14-2014, 06:44 PM
barbosi barbosi is offline
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To better help visualize the field lines structure of a bar magnet, I found something that Nassim Haramein used in one of his presentation:



The perceived motion of field lines are represented by connecting the moving dots. If we take out of the picture the continuous vertical lines, with what remains if we copy/paste then around the torus, the spiral shaped lines represent the magnetic field of both poles. The fact that this figure comes close, but not close enough to what I want to describe, makes me not to assign it with a number.

And again, nothing moves. It is all potential. In fact, this is the basis of today blurb.

Exactly like in the Figure 12 (except this is for a bar magnet), the illusion is there. If an observer keeps staring at one point, it becomes obvious that is all static. The moment the eyes start wandering it all becomes motion.

This why I say is static and in the same time, potential. It does nothing until the opportunity for manifesting that potential occurs. And that opportunity will induce the sensation of motion. It is like field lines are frozen while it has the memory of motion. All is needed is some moving observer.

As a perfect example, as I see it, is the Homopolar Generator. It has been invented by Faraday:

Figure 16.



It has come to my attention that it can be even more simple. It has not to have two poles on each side of the disk, but that thing will make it more efficient.

By visiting “Homopolar Generators” section at the page: Homopolar Motors and Homopolar Generators. From Physclips: Mechanics with animations and film. you can have a description and even some clips with some demonstrations.

Figure 17.



What we can observe is that just the relative motion (rotation) of the copper disk in top of the magnet bar will induce the potential which can be collected at the brushes.
In other words, the static potential exhibited by the magnetic filed is transferred to the brushes (as dynamic potential) once the magnet perceived the motion. Like I said with regard to Figure 12, once the eyes wander across the picture, that static potential is induced as electrical signals in our nervous system which in turn give us the illusion of motion.

As we do this to ourselves, the same, the disc is generating that electricity, by using the motionless power of static potential.

Another motion directions are possible too but after brief consideration, the relative speed being too small, the effects are not significant.

From the page I suggested to visit, there is also an explanation on why this is happening. In just one word: Lenz. So we have no need to repudiate that law, when we see that actually is helping generate electric power. We may need instead to consider changing our ways of thinking and find new ways to harvest that power in that simple way from more evolved electric machines. But that doesn't mean I have the answer. I am sure though that someone out there reading this may be inspired and in a flash it will pop in mind's lab the solution. And when it will be maid public, everybody will reflect upon simplicity and think “Man, I was just 2 seconds behind!”

I hardly can wait for that day.
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Old 01-14-2014, 08:37 PM
barbosi barbosi is offline
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Please be aware that in the second post I added a new picture (Figure 3a) representing a side view of a bar magnet.
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Old 01-16-2014, 12:25 AM
barbosi barbosi is offline
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From Faraday's homopolar generator is just a small step further to look if there were some others researchers interested in the phenomena. With no surprise we find the Titan of electrical engineering: Nikola Tesla.

In 1891 (almost 125 years) Nik published in The Electrical Engineer an article discussing methods to improve the homopolar (unipolar) generator. As we cannot know for sure what was his line of thought, we certainly can notice similarities (the spiral shape which is opposite from one side of disk to the other):

Figure 18.



From the article (NOTES ON AN UNIPOLAR DYNAMO) we read the reasons of choosing the disc subdivisions:

Quote:
The difference of potential between a point on the shaft and a point on the periphery wilt remain unchanged, in sign as well as in amount. The only difference will be that the resistance of the disc will be augmented and that there will be a greater fall of potential from a point on the shaft to a point on the periphery when the same current is traversing the external circuit. But since the current is forced to follow the lines of subdivision, we see that it will tend either to energize or de-energize the field, and this will depend, other things being equal, upon the direction of the Lines of subdivision.
From nowadays norms we are thought that a potential (voltage) source needs to have a low internal resistance. It appears Nik would be willing to sacrifice that for augmenting the generated potential.

Many speculations can be made, but to me it looks that he knew about the shape of magnetic field lines generated by magnet bars. Function of the direction of the segments and the polarity of the magnet facing the disc, he could increase or decrease the relative speed between the magnets and disc.

As a visual effect, the closest I could explain the phenomena is by showing the following optical illusion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5xtRdLOopU

These days it can be considered that the governing phenomena is “cutting the field lines”. However, to this day I am not aware of a similar simplicity of increasing the relative speed.
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Old 01-16-2014, 02:44 PM
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In addition Tesla increased the diameter of magnets compared to the disc diameter, in this way he ensured the magnetic field lines present a maximum twist (which is present towards the center of the magnet).
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The disc or cylinder D is supposed to be arranged to rotate between the two poles N and S of a magnet, which completely cover it on both sides, the contours of the disc and poles being represented by the circles d and d' respectively, the upper pole being omitted for the sake of clearness.
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Old 01-16-2014, 04:41 PM
barbosi barbosi is offline
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From an unpublished article called Man's Greatest Achievement Tesla said:
"There manifests itself in the fully developed being, Man, a desire mysterious, inscrutable and irresistible: to imitate nature, to create, to work himself the wonders he perceives.... Long ago he recognized that all perceptible matter comes from a primary substance, or tenuity beyond conception, filling all space, the Akasha or luminiferous ether, that is acted upon by the life giving Prana or creative force, calling into existence, in never ending cycles all things and phenomena. The primary substance, thrown into infinitesimal whirls of prodigious velocity, becomes gross matter; the force subsiding, the motion ceases and matter disappears, reverting to the primary substance."

It comes to no surprise that another researcher had similar vision and his name is Ed Leedskalnin. Mysterious character, we again may not know the whole picture of his life and his thoughts, but from his writings we can find similarities. The book I refer to is “Magnetic current”.

Although I think almost have already guessed where I'm going with this, I present anyway one famous drawing from this book:

Figure 19.



Because this is related to magnetic lines in a conductor, I will ask for your patience and compare it with already known Figure 12. Leedskalnin's black dot and white dot are the same black and white “horse shoes” bordering the orange ovals. I remind you about the imperfection in Figure 12 where the twist is not present.

For those familiar with Leedskalnin's books I will point out to the same cosmogony he shared with Tesla. And these two were not unique regarding this concepts.

I will stop again for reminding the static character of magnetic lines and reminding you that the ilusion of motion comes from the observer's perspective. Some will see the black “horse shoes” leading the swirl, some will see the white ones.

Precisely like in this animation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RSsoTJA6cA

Some will see it spin clock-wise others anti clock-wise, and yet some will be able to make it change the direction.
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Old 01-16-2014, 04:47 PM
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Hello Barbosi,

The magnetic river video was excellent, Laithwaite was quite the free thinker, I'm surprised his videos are even still available online.

Magnetism is such an understudied field, still so many things to learn.

Well, I'll add a few things since we are just sharing ideas. I know magnets tend to stick to Aluminum as either one is moved across the other. But is that always true.

Here is a vid I made showing that something is not correct. Maybe you've seen this effect before.

Aluminum and magnets - YouTube

Other people I showed didn't get the results which I did, so I searched and yes, someone else noticed it too. And it is a better vid.

magnetic field on aluminum - YouTube

Also, old HoJo would have liked fig 3a. Now, on whether the magnetic field actually spins. This was posted on another thread, The magnetic fields seems to be spinning at a very high rate of speed, at least in a plasma. JK plasma magnetics experiments. Strange this is not a visible effect on the CRT monitor.

JK Plasma Magnetics Experiment 1 - YouTube
Edit: I guess you would have to put the magnet into the screen, to get the full effect. The screen would be like holding magnet to the side of jar, and field looks to bend but not turn.
Edit2: If I understand, you are saying the wave isn't moving, the plasma is, its an effect of many changing potentials.? There is spinning effect, but the field is expanding and contracting, in and out, the spinning movement is an illusion?

Machine
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Old 01-16-2014, 07:22 PM
barbosi barbosi is offline
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Originally Posted by machinealive View Post
Hello Barbosi,

The magnetic river video was excellent, Laithwaite was quite the free thinker, I'm surprised his videos are even still available online.

Magnetism is such an understudied field, still so many things to learn.

Well, I'll add a few things since we are just sharing ideas. I know magnets tend to stick to Aluminum as either one is moved across the other. But is that always true.

Here is a vid I made showing that something is not correct. Maybe you've seen this effect before.

Aluminum and magnets - YouTube

Other people I showed didn't get the results which I did, so I searched and yes, someone else noticed it too. And it is a better vid.

magnetic field on aluminum - YouTube

Also, old HoJo would have liked fig 3a. Now, on whether the magnetic field actually spins. This was posted on another thread, The magnetic fields seems to be spinning at a very high rate of speed, at least in a plasma. JK plasma magnetics experiments. Strange this is not a visible effect on the CRT monitor.

JK Plasma Magnetics Experiment 1 - YouTube


Machine
Machine,

You made my day, man!

I cannot find an explanation on why people right after they find something exciting, drop the whole thing and sometime even forget about it. It is like fatigue and they need to go away in a mental vacation. As the final conclusions are missing I can compare this with “Coitus interruptus” (jokingly of course).
It this case, people look at this and dismiss with “Aah Lenz law, nothing new” turn their back and miss the punch line. Although I think this is very real, there is still a theoretical chance that the magnetism is not symmetrical at both poles. In other words the neutral plane (Bloch Wall) is not exactly at the geometrical equatorial plane. I tried to approach the subject when some fellow researcher posted something related to some lens effect. I will try to address this later, no big deal.
Regardless the perfection or imperfection of the magnet, this effect can be used. First think coming in my mind is purely magnetic motors.

It appears the Aluminum has this unknown property but you cannot be sure about some other materials exhibiting similar properties.

In the second video, there is also another unknown (at least by me) effect. In the last experiment is shown a curved trajectory which is different from one pole to the other. This comes together with other proofs that field lines at the poles are arranged in curved manner.

The third video (with plasma) is great too showing the degree of torsion and the “high speed” how you call it.
As opposed to the CRT experiment, this is in “real time”. Because the CRT's combined deflection, an “electron” sweeps the screen area and comes to the same exact point at some milliseconds, we may compare this with time-lapsed pictures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by machinealive View Post
Edit: I guess you would have to put the magnet into the screen, to get the full effect. The screen would be like holding magnet to the side of jar, and field looks to bend but not turn.
Exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by machinealive View Post
Edit2: If I understand, you are saying the wave isn't moving, the plasma is, its an effect of many changing potentials.? There is spinning effect, but the field is expanding and contracting, in and out, the spinning movement is an illusion?
Yes, this is precisely what I am saying. It's an effect of many inter-changing potentials.
It is my opinion that we should not ignore the presence of electric field which defines the plasma it self. There is no pure magnetic or pure electric fields. They not only the interact with each other but they are born one from the other. If there is a moment of pure magnetic field, I would compare that moment with the moment when the pendulum reaches its top position. Pure potential, speed zero.
The great wonder to me is that matter and fields/plasma are fooled the same way as the mind.

Again, great share and I thank you for that.

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Old 01-17-2014, 03:19 AM
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Hey Barbosi,

I tried sliding a magnet down the side of large copper tube and seemed to give same effect, but I need a sheet of copper to really see if same effect happens. Not only does aluminum show a difference in direction as magnet slides down for each pole, confirming opposite curved lines, but the fact that one side sticks better also confirms that the electron fields in aluminum also are curved in a particular direction. Aluminum has one electron in it outer shell, it has spin(curve), it has to match the curve of the magnet pole, I believe.
I also noticed that the magnet seems to be trying to flip to the side that sticks, when it falls.

I know a lot of people on YT have tried to reproduce Boyd Bushman's floating wire trick, seems people have a hard time with that, I thought of Laithwaite , as soon as I saw the Bushman.

Back to the wave. So, you seem to like Russell's thinking , the universe breathes in and out, expands and contracts, a pulse and a breath, it's alive. This is Russell's Thinking, and others of course, its in this expansion and contraction, that gives rise to motion and the gyroscopic nature of the electric and magnetic fields, and the illusion of stability.

Hope this isn't too off topic.
Machine
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Old 01-17-2014, 10:00 AM
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Hey Machine, this effect of breathing in & out is definitaly, real, the earth breathes in from aprox, 3pm in the afternoon, till aprox 3 am.

This is when you apply the Bio-Dynamic 500, spray preperation, that cost $1.50 per acre to keep your soil fertile, ( to enliven the army of nearly free, soil workers).

Sounds far fetched, but i have double cropped my grain paddocks, for 6 years, with no other fertiliser, and still get better than average yields.

i hope ther is no artificial fertiliser Company looking at this post, as most of their fertiliser, is derived from the petroleum industry, BI - PRODUCTS, ohh, no, i'm on their list too!.

Warm Regards Cornboy.
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Old 01-17-2014, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by machinealive View Post
I tried sliding a magnet down the side of large copper tube and seemed to give same effect, but I need a sheet of copper to really see if same effect happens. Not only does aluminum show a difference in direction as magnet slides down for each pole, confirming opposite curved lines, but the fact that one side sticks better also confirms that the electron fields in aluminum also are curved in a particular direction. Aluminum has one electron in it outer shell, it has spin(curve), it has to match the curve of the magnet pole, I believe.
I also noticed that the magnet seems to be trying to flip to the side that sticks, when it falls.
From a long time I got this sense that Aluminum has some remarkable properties. I'm not an expert in Walter Russell (and to be honest I don't think there are too many out there) but if you are familiar with his work, maybe the study of table of elements will give some answers. I have to have a look at it too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by machinealive View Post
I know a lot of people on YT have tried to reproduce Boyd Bushman's floating wire trick, seems people have a hard time with that, I thought of Laithwaite , as soon as I saw the Bushman.
Again bringing in information leading to new ideas. Never heard about this guy and although I don't really trust people coming from "organizations", I always keep my ear open to what it's been said or implied... Thank you, I have to spend some time with it as I couldn't find his experiment, just some other temptations to replicate it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by machinealive View Post
Back to the wave. So, you seem to like Russell's thinking , the universe breathes in and out, expands and contracts, a pulse and a breath, it's alive. This is Russell's Thinking, and others of course, its in this expansion and contraction, that gives rise to motion and the gyroscopic nature of the electric and magnetic fields, and the illusion of stability.

Hope this isn't too off topic.
Machine
Nothing is off topic as long as unifies ideas. Not even jokes if they make a point.
Thanks.
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Old 01-17-2014, 10:15 PM
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Be cause I just mentioned Leedskalnin, I cannot miss the opportunity to point an historical fact.

The most acclaimed experiment the PMH is not his. Possibly in his studies he just found it, replicated and used it in his own discoveries.
In “Davis's Manual Of Magnetism” 13-th Edition 1865, (http://ia350627.us.archive.org/2/ite...00abbogoog.pdf) we find at page 170 the early experiment describing the phenomena.
See also the attached picture.

It is possible that Ed used two coils instead of one, because of his experiments using PMH as transformer and any other configurations that might involve 2 coils. I really don't know for sure, it's all just speculation.

It worth to note here that because an iron core of a regular helicoidal coil exhibits the same kind of field as in Figure 12. We can “visualize” how a closed loop core has its magnetic field lines closed upon themselves and locked. Phenomena governing the PMH is like mirroring the immobility of the magnetic lines field onto the iron core.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Davis.jpg (23.6 KB, 29 views)
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Old 01-18-2014, 03:34 AM
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Breathing in and breathing out

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Originally Posted by Cornboy 555 View Post
Hey Machine, this effect of breathing in & out is definitaly, real, the earth breathes in from aprox, 3pm in the afternoon, till aprox 3 am.
The earth rotates in a magnetic field that is compressed on the sun side and expanded 180 degrees away. You've probably seem lots of pictures of the planet's magnetic "shield". Of course they are all 2 dimesional static illustrations. Take a lok at one and picture yourself fixed at a point on the planet rotating with it through that warped magnetic field.
File:Magnetosphere rendition.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now consider that the solar wind is not constant but pulses and has varying speed and density so that magnetic field is actually throbbing.
NOAA Solar Wind Prediction

Not sure about the universe but what you say is definitely true here on earth and "breathing" in and out magnetism and charged particles. The sun has magnetic and electric fields also besides the charge particles it emits.
Heliospheric current sheet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Note in that link the planets shown inside the current sheet.


Then of course we have interstellar and intergalactic magnetic fields and charged particles bombarding us from all directions all time time.

Some might wonder about the magnetic fields at those ranges but magnetism decreases as the cube root of the distance and that means it never really goes to zero no matter how far away the source is. We may not be able to measure it but it's still there.

I found an interesting correlation between Tesla's radiant energy receiver as shown in his patent and the solar wind. The readings from my device were inversely proportional to the solar wind density, i.e the solar wind was blocking whatever the elevated plate was receiving like a cloud going between the sun and a photovoltaic panel. But only in my daytime readings, i.e. when my position was on the sun side. Actually they were about an hour either side of sunrise and sunset.
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Old 01-18-2014, 04:31 AM
indio007 indio007 is offline
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Hello indio and welcome to my fascination with magnetism, although I would love in exchange to hear about individual experiences of everyone visiting this thread. Related to magnetism of course. I won't protest if anyone would jump in discussing electric fields in relationship to the magnetic ones. I don't want to be the only “leader” of the thread. I feel like drained after just answering questions.



With the link you shared, I am not sure what to say. Maybe because there is one buzz word which may arouse some people but not me: Quantum. I really enjoy simple things and I don't understand why people should invent new words for old phenomena. I can see some times clouds in the sky, like sitting on a glass ceiling and I can see how an upward pressure can hold them up there. I can “see” layers of magnetism behaving the same way. But to admit that all is because of a constant... A constant is a number and no matter how important might be, it does not explain the “why”. It is like telling the circle is that way because of Pi. And Plank's explanations to me look like stating what was noticed.

I see there have been used two layers of ferromagnetic material, it looks like they want to capitalize on the layer structure which occurs naturally.

I thank you for pointing to this article, and will have to spend time, serious time if I see there is something I could use. I don't always get it and especially for the first time.


I always try to consider all variables and I have to tell the truth, I am not Zeus and I have to live up to my human condition. If you think there is a catch that I might have missed, please let me know. All I was impressed was the simplicity of experiment and the focalized fascicle coming from beyond the luminescent surface which is by design orthogonal to the screen.
Also, but I did not mention before, because of the tree-color dot structure, the composed resultant wave creates colored structure with great resemblance to cymatics structures.
But you may be right, it might be an illusion afterall. Can you elaborate if you think it worth?

Thanks.
Don't get hung up the theoretical quantum stuff. I simply wanted to add this phenomena to the mix. The effect is this. They stick ferromagnetic material inside a superconductor in a coaxial configuration. Then place a magnetic field at one end. The field comes out the other end or even multiple ends nearly lossless. Their quantum theory is inadequate. Im thinking they just threw that gibberish in there simply to get the phenomena published.

Anyhow the experiment is the important part.

In regards to the crt. I just don't know if the effect is a result of the electrons ,the screen coating, the lorentz force,the magnetic field or some combination of them.
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Old 01-18-2014, 05:54 AM
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Yes, this is precisely what I am saying. It's an effect of many inter-changing potentials.
It is my opinion that we should not ignore the presence of electric field which defines the plasma it self. There is no pure magnetic or pure electric fields. They not only the interact with each other but they are born one from the other. If there is a moment of pure magnetic field, I would compare that moment with the moment when the pendulum reaches its top position. Pure potential, speed zero.
The great wonder to me is that matter and fields/plasma are fooled the same way as the mind.

Again, great share and I thank you for that.

As I am no more unqualified to speak on this subject as the next guy, I will share my opinions of my observations while looking at the whole. The title of this thread "just magnetic fields" is an impossible topic. The dance between electro motive, electrostatic, and magnetic become quite apparent with any in-depth study of magnetism. If you look at any of the greats work, you will see they all moved from one discipline to next and back again. The homopolar dynamo of Maxwells was nothing more than the study of eddy currents. Tesla too, dove into this study to build on Maxwell's shared designs. Professor Laithwaite took it step further and showed us that you can actually move solid objects with just the "wind" of magnetism. Much like plasma particles are easily "pushed" by field/force of a magnet, so is aluminum. Why? To understand the nature of eddy currents and the associated magnetic fields will, in my opinion, give us much understanding in the fundamentals of magnetic flow, or as you put it barbosi, potentials. I think you are on your way to a understanding of the fundamentals of all. As someone who likes to master one thing before moving on to the next, I realized I would continue to struggle immensely without all the pieces to the puzzle. If you look close enough, you will see the three forces at work together in harmony. I think we have made it harder than it has to be by stubbornly trying to separate the three as individual forces to be reckoned with.

While I am no fan of Boyd Bushman, I do agree with his assessment that we have 3-4 forces which we have not yet named, and are somehow related to the three above. The aether being the collection of many forces. Another conjecture, while I'm throwing opinions based on observational intuitions, is that magnetism is somehow involved in the cohesion of the universe of all things. If you observe Tesla's studies in chronological order, you will see that he had a purpose for everything he studied. One led to another and so on. Always with his eye on that final target of understanding the forces of nature that holds it all together.

Sorry for this long post. With all of that long winded conjecture, let me say again. Study the eddys. I believe they will tell the story of magnetism. Excellent thread barbosi. Thank you for asking the most fundamental question of all. What are we working with when building and testing AE devices.

Randy
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Old 01-18-2014, 06:21 AM
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Cornboy 555 Cornboy 555 is offline
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Originally Posted by thx1138 View Post
The earth rotates in a magnetic field that is compressed on the sun side and expanded 180 degrees away. You've probably seem lots of pictures of the planet's magnetic "shield". Of course they are all 2 dimesional static illustrations. Take a lok at one and picture yourself fixed at a point on the planet rotating with it through that warped magnetic field.
File:Magnetosphere rendition.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now consider that the solar wind is not constant but pulses and has varying speed and density so that magnetic field is actually throbbing.
NOAA Solar Wind Prediction

Not sure about the universe but what you say is definitely true here on earth and "breathing" in and out magnetism and charged particles. The sun has magnetic and electric fields also besides the charge particles it emits.
Heliospheric current sheet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Note in that link the planets shown inside the current sheet.


Then of course we have interstellar and intergalactic magnetic fields and charged particles bombarding us from all directions all time time.

Some might wonder about the magnetic fields at those ranges but magnetism decreases as the cube root of the distance and that means it never really goes to zero no matter how far away the source is. We may not be able to measure it but it's still there.

I found an interesting correlation between Tesla's radiant energy receiver as shown in his patent and the solar wind. The readings from my device were inversely proportional to the solar wind density, i.e the solar wind was blocking whatever the elevated plate was receiving like a cloud going between the sun and a photovoltaic panel. But only in my daytime readings, i.e. when my position was on the sun side. Actually they were about an hour either side of sunrise and sunset.

Hello thx1138, what device are you refering to?

Regards Cornboy.
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