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Renewable Energy Discussion on various alternative energy, renewable energy, & free energy technologies. Also any discussion about the environment, global warming, and other related topics are welcome here.

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  #1  
Old 01-20-2008, 02:59 PM
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elias elias is offline
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Magnetic Fuel Savers

Hello everyone,

Has anyone seen or tried out these magnetic fuel savers, which claim to increase the mileage by about 25%?
Magnetizer Super Fuel Saver Magnetic Energizer System for Engines
Amazon.com: SuperGasSaver Magnetic Fuel Treatment Device: Automotive
They claim that the strong Nd magnets ionize the fuel as it passes through it and makes it burn more efficiently. There has been some criticism on these devices too: eBay.co.uk Guides - Magnetic fuel savers, how to really save money

If it works it is very reasonable to buy, but not sure about it works or not, as magnetic fields "seem" to have no effect on hydro-carbons.

Has anybody got any opinions about these fuel savers?

Elias
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Old 01-20-2008, 05:42 PM
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fuel line magnets

Recommended: Magnetizer Products


The EPA and/or DOT have tested them and they say they give no "significant" gains... not there there aren't gains but not what they consider significant.

I had a very steady drive when I used to work out of town. I drove the same route at the same speeds and always filled up at the same pump. My car was always getting 38mpg on the hwy. When I put small, round ceramic magnets on the fuel line close to the intake and also (on the rubber hose) further away from the intake, I was getting 43mpg on the hwy. I think they work.

Several years later in the same car, leaving everything as it is, I just started using an additive and was getting up to 43mpg in the city!

Some people lose gas mileage (according to testimonials that I've read) by adding too strong of magnets so even though they get a loss, it shows one thing that the magnetic field must have some effect on hydrocarbons.

Ceramic magnets seem to be the strongest necessary. The ones I used are about 1/4" thick and about the diameter of a dime.

Supposedly they polarize the molecules or like charge them so they repel from each other breaking apart to reduce the flash point...lets the gas atomize better.
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  #3  
Old 01-20-2008, 05:55 PM
Peter Lindemann Peter Lindemann is offline
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Buyer Beware

Quote:
Originally Posted by elias View Post
Hello everyone,

Has anyone seen or tried out these magnetic fuel savers, which claim to increase the mileage by about 25%?
Magnetizer Super Fuel Saver Magnetic Energizer System for Engines
Amazon.com: SuperGasSaver Magnetic Fuel Treatment Device: Automotive
They claim that the strong Nd magnets ionize the fuel as it passes through it and makes it burn more efficiently. There has been some criticism on these devices too: eBay.co.uk Guides - Magnetic fuel savers, how to really save money

If it works it is very reasonable to buy, but not sure about it works or not, as magnetic fields "seem" to have no effect on hydro-carbons.

Has anybody got any opinions about these fuel savers?

Elias
Elias,

I started playing around with fuel magnetization in 1983, when I lived in Santa Barbara, California and worked with Bruce DePalma. Bruce developed a whole line of devices based on pouring liquids through ring magnets. We did hundreds of experiments, and one company took his ideas and designs and built a multi-million dollar business in the water softening area. Of course, it didn't work on all water, but they made enough money to do some really good science and they found out which dissolved impurities would respond well to the system. Ultimately, they offered to do a free water analysis for any new, potential customer, to see if their water could benefit from the system. After initiating this procedure, they only had 100% satisfied customers, and they went on to make a fortune. Of course, DePalma was cheated and got nothing!

We also did hundreds of experiments on consumable liquids, mainly fruit juices and alcoholic beverages. The effects were nothing less than astonishing. Re-blending the taste of cheap wine was easy, and quite rewarding! (ooooooh yaaaa) In one test, we started with a inexpensive, watery, fruity wine called Manischewitz, poured it through the system three times, and ended up with a thick, syrupy blend that tasted like a fine liquor. Drinking 4 ounces of the stuff gave us a buzz for the rest of the afternoon! 4 ounces of the product right out of the bottle could not do this. The process, which consisted of pouring it through a stack of PM ring magnets about 12 inches tall, (three times) changed the taste and texture of the liquid, as well as changed the character of the alcoholic high.

The moral of this story is that all kinds of things happen when you magnetize liquids that "are not supposed to happen". We could even make "Hawaiian Punch" taste good!

So, does magnetizing fuel increase mileage? It can, IF it is done right. Just placing a magnet on a fuel line is not enough. What we found is this. The fuel must run PARALLEL to the lines of force for a significant distance and exit the NORTH POLE of the system. There may be other configurations that work, but that one does for sure. The benefit was about 10% better mileage. Since you can't "strap on" a ring of permanent magnets around a fuel line without disconnecting and reconnecting the fuel line itself, we never tried to market anything. The strap on units have a simplicity and an appeal like "what do I have to lose?", but I'm sure some systems work better than others. Also, I don't know what magnetic configuration these units use. Magnetizing straight across the fuel N-to-S showed little to no benefit in our tests.

Also, the formula of gasoline changes from season to season and from region to region, so uniform results should not be expected.

The company you linked to has products to magnetize the fuel, the incoming air, and the cooling system. They claim to increase mileage by an average of about 12%. My guess is that the fuel magnetization is mostly responsible for the gains.

The bottom line is...... try it and see if it works! Its a "science experiment". IF it works, its a fuel saver!

Peter
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Old 01-20-2008, 06:19 PM
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Thanks, I'll experiment!

Thank you very much Peter and Aaron,
Peter you really gave an insight on this so I'll ask the details from the dealer. I think 15$ is worth an experiment even it doesn't really have any effect.
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Old 01-20-2008, 06:49 PM
Peter Lindemann Peter Lindemann is offline
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Thank you very much Peter and Aaron,
Peter you really gave an insight on this so I'll ask the details from the dealer. I think 15$ is worth an experiment even it doesn't really have any effect.
Elias,

If it "doesn't really have any effect", then it is NOT worth it, and you were CHEATED! Before you spend even $15, try this. Take three of the little ceramic magnets (1 inch by 2 inch) used in SSG systems, and place them on a section of NON-IRON fuel line with all North Poles facing the fuel line. They will try to repel each other, so wrap them on tightly with plastic tape.

This will approximate a system with parallel lines of force with a North Pole exit. You should be able to do this yourself, easily and not have to buy anything else.

This is where a reasonable experiment should begin.

Another configuration that should work even better would be to take 8 of the 1 x 2 ceramic magnets and place two stacks of 4 magnets on each side of the fuel line, with the South Poles facing the fuel tank and the North Poles facing the engine. This approximates the ring magnet arrangement even better, with parallel lines of force running along the fuel line for 2 inches.

Try these experiments and let us know how they work.

Peter
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Old 01-20-2008, 07:06 PM
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I agree with Peter on this....
We have looked at almost all possible fuel savers in our quest to leave a positive mark on humanity and our environment and this was one that seemed logical and cost effective to test....
Unlike Aaron we didn't have any luck with results that we could see, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't work!

Magnetic Water Treatment and Magnetic Fuel Treatment (Skeptical Inquirer January 1998)
This is a Really decent article on the subject, I think you will find interesting...


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Old 01-20-2008, 09:08 PM
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Thumbs up

Very interesting. I was always thinking, that this isn't working at all. Especially since I watched that mythbusters episode about this. But I learned long ago that you can not trust their experiments fully since that screwup with Bedini motor. I decided to try this out, because it would be stupid not to try if you have all you need to test this I used two 1"x1/4" cylinder magnets in series and then duct taped many of such magnets together so that they all have their N pole on the one side and the S pole on the other. It was rather difficult since they respell each other in this configuration. The resulting array of magnets formed a "virtual" ring magnet. I put it around my 2001 year toyota yaris 1.3L motor fuel line so that the N pole is facing the motor. The fuel consumption this far was 12.4 kilometers per liter, I zeroed this out and we will si what this bring us after a week or so
Thanks





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Old 01-20-2008, 09:50 PM
Peter Lindemann Peter Lindemann is offline
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Great!

Jetijs,

This is a good approximation of the "ring magnet" concept. What kind of magnets are your little cylinders? We always used ceramic magnets, as it was possible to "over do" the effect and ruin the results.

Also, your fuel line in this area looks like it is made of neoprene. Are you sure that there is no iron inside.

If the magnets are ceramic and there is no iron in the fuel line in this area, this should be a good test.

Let's hope this shows the kind of results we saw in 1983.

Peter
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Old 01-20-2008, 10:29 PM
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Peter,
I guess then it's a false alarm, because these magnets are strong neodymium ones and also there is a iron pipe inside that rubber tube. Didn't know that magnets could be too strong. Nevertheless I will leave these magnets on the fuel pipe for a week and see what happens
Thank you.
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Old 01-21-2008, 05:06 PM
Peter Lindemann Peter Lindemann is offline
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Not Much

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Originally Posted by Jetijs View Post
Peter,
I guess then it's a false alarm, because these magnets are strong neodymium ones and also there is a iron pipe inside that rubber tube. Didn't know that magnets could be too strong. Nevertheless I will leave these magnets on the fuel pipe for a week and see what happens
Thank you.
Jetijs,

The real problem is the iron fuel line. Putting magnets near the iron pipe will magnetize the pipe, but cannot magnetize the fuel since little to no magnetic flux will penetrate the pipe and get into the fuel.

Both of my cars have fuel injection, which use a high pressure fuel delivery system. I never thought that replacing a section of the fuel line with something non-magnetic was wise, because the two new pipe joints might leak gasoline in the engine compartment and start a fire. NOT GOOD! This is the exact reason I have not pursued this "potential gas saver" more vigorously in the past.

Iron fuel line is standard in the industry now, and may well have been mandated to prevent the fuel magnetizers from working. Automobile engines use very little iron anymore, so it is curious that the fuel line is iron when there are numerous braided plastic tubing materials available that can handle the pressure and are probably cheaper.

Back in 1983 when we were doing the initial testing, low pressure fuel line to the carburetor was neoprene, and putting magnets on the line was simple and effective. I guess "longing for the good ol' days" means I'm getting OLD!

What luck!

Peter
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Old 01-21-2008, 09:35 PM
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Peter,
I took another look at that fuel line. I took off some of the rubber cover of the fuel line to see what kind of pipe is inside. Turns out that it is not a iron pipe. The inner pipe is made of a strong, clear plastic. Yesterday I just touched that fuel line and felt something hard underneath the rubber, I thought it was a metal pipe, but it's not . So that is good news. Now the only issue could be that the magnets are too strong. Will see about that in a week
Thank you!
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Old 01-23-2008, 07:45 AM
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I looked at it closely

Peter,

Thanks, I was on a trip so, I was unable to see your comments, sorry. I thought you meant by experimenting buying and trying it. So I went to the dealer and saw what it looked like in near examination. It looks like the magnets are positioned like the diagram I have attached, and it can be mounted in two configurations, which in the first one the magnets are attracted to each other and in the other one the magnets repel. I bought it because I thought it is only the price of the Nd magnets I am paying for, I payed about 13$ for four powerful Nd magnets with a plastic housing. Which configuration do you recommend me testing? I think that the second one may have a better effect such as it produces super-poles on the fuel line somehow.

Jetjs,

Great work you've done with those magnets, I wanted to buy those Nd magnets to build one of the configurations you have used, but those Nds are so pricey! Each of them was about 7$ or so, so I must have payed about 80$ to buy those magnets. How much did that cost you?

Elias
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File Type: jpg fuelsaver1.jpg (12.0 KB, 83 views)
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Old 01-23-2008, 10:19 AM
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elias,
I think Peter meant that the magnet configuration should be like in my attachment, so that the fuel flows parallel to the magnetic force lines.
And I buy all my neo magnets here:
Emovendo Magnets & Elements
These are the exact magnets I am using on my fuel line now:
1/4" x 1" Cylinders :: Cylinders :: Emovendo Magnets & Elements
I is the cheapest neodymium magnet store I found so far.
Thanks,
Jetijs
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File Type: jpg fuelsaver1.jpg (12.0 KB, 98 views)
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Old 01-23-2008, 04:37 PM
Peter Lindemann Peter Lindemann is offline
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Testing....1...2...

Quote:
Originally Posted by elias View Post
Peter,

Thanks, I was on a trip so, I was unable to see your comments, sorry. I thought you meant by experimenting buying and trying it. So I went to the dealer and saw what it looked like in near examination. It looks like the magnets are positioned like the diagram I have attached, and it can be mounted in two configurations, which in the first one the magnets are attracted to each other and in the other one the magnets repel. I bought it because I thought it is only the price of the Nd magnets I am paying for, I payed about 13$ for four powerful Nd magnets with a plastic housing. Which configuration do you recommend me testing? I think that the second one may have a better effect such as it produces super-poles on the fuel line somehow.

Jetjs,

Great work you've done with those magnets, I wanted to buy those Nd magnets to build one of the configurations you have used, but those Nds are so pricey! Each of them was about 7$ or so, so I must have payed about 80$ to buy those magnets. How much did that cost you?

Elias
Elias,

OK. You took the plunge and made the big investment. So let's see if we can get a mileage increase with this thing.

The first thing to do is to make sure you know the miles per gallon (km/L) your car is getting now, before installing the device. The next thing is to find a section of fuel line near your engine that is a candidate for mounting the magnetizer, and make sure there is no iron in the fuel line there. As stated before, iron fuel line will pretty much negate any magnetism getting into the fuel. A simple test is just take any magnet and see if it is attracted to the fuel line. If not, you're good to go.

Your second configuration looks OK, but if you can move all of the magnets in the plastic case, then trying the configuration Jetijs suggested might work better. The main idea is to take notes and be systematic in your testing. Run a full tank of gas for each configuration you try, and keep notes. Don't be satisfied with your first success! Keep trying different magnetic configurations until there are no more to try. Then, look at your data and see which one gave you the best results. Then, re-insert the best configuration and enjoy your maximum mileage gain..... and let the rest of us know!!!

Good luck,

Peter
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Old 01-23-2008, 09:03 PM
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Ok

I'll test all of the possible configurations on my Proton Wira especially the one you recommended ... and see what happens Thanks.
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Old 01-23-2008, 09:09 PM
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Wow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetijs View Post
elias,
I think Peter meant that the magnet configuration should be like in my attachment, so that the fuel flows parallel to the magnetic force lines.
And I buy all my neo magnets here:
Emovendo Magnets & Elements
These are the exact magnets I am using on my fuel line now:
1/4" x 1" Cylinders :: Cylinders :: Emovendo Magnets & Elements
I is the cheapest neodymium magnet store I found so far.
Thanks,
Jetijs
Thanks Jetijs for the link, so you have payed around 120$ for those magnets, Wow!! I hope that it works for you. Please let us know how it works.
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Old 01-23-2008, 10:15 PM
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Elias,
where do you get your numbers from? For my fuel line mod I only used three magnet sets from that link, that is about 30$. I already had them laying around form the perendev motor project.
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Old 01-23-2008, 11:04 PM
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One point you might want to consider is that in my car the “type” of fuel I get makes a huge difference in gas mileage. So you will want to get the same grade of gas from the same supplier. Even different gas stations of the same chain can make a small difference.

Karl
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Old 01-24-2008, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetijs View Post
Elias,
where do you get your numbers from? For my fuel line mod I only used three magnet sets from that link, that is about 30$. I already had them laying around form the perendev motor project.
Sorry ... I thought that 10$ is the cost of one of them, Yes it is pretty cheap for 1 $ for each of the magnets.
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Old 01-27-2008, 08:24 PM
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Hi all,
well, a week has passed and my board computer now is showing 11.5 kilometers per liter. That is 6.85% less than those 12.4 kilometers per liter a week ago . The driving style was about the same and the city/highway mileage ratio also the same as usual, maybe even a bit more highway driving, that should give some improvement. Instead the gas mileage got worse. I should say that in this case even a bad result is a good result because that means that the magnets around the fuel line DO have an effect on the gas mileage. In my case the magnets may be just too strong and I am just overdoing the effect. I have already ordered small ceramic cylinder magnets, that I will try next.
Thanks,
Jetijs
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Old 01-27-2008, 08:41 PM
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change around the same magnets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetijs View Post
I should say that in this case even a bad result is a good result because that means that the magnets around the fuel line DO have an effect on the gas mileage.
YEP! I agree!

Why not use the same magnetic setup you have but reverse the polarity of everything and see if that makes a difference.

I see you have them 2 stacked end to end. Maybe after the above variation...use only single stack on the original polarity and test to see if maybe slightly weaker of same config makes a difference.

Then with the single stack reverse polarity on that too and see.

You already have the parts to do this to see if there is a difference in the above 3 extra variations...might be interesting.
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Old 01-27-2008, 08:46 PM
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Aaron, thanks for the ideas.
Tomorrow my car will be at the service station for oil, oil filter, fuel filter, air filter change and some other repairs on the exaust. After this, the gas mileage should improve alot (actually 12.4km/l is a very high consumption for a car this small), so I will need to drive without the magnets for a while to get the average consumption. Only then I will be ready to try those different magnet configs.
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Jetijs
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Old 02-09-2008, 07:32 PM
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Hi,
I received my small 8mm diameter and 10mm long ceramic magnets. I duct taped 9 of them together in a line, so that they all have their N pole on one side and the S pole on the other side. I installed this on my car fuel line N pole facing the engine. The fuel consumption according to the board computer now is 12.1 l/km. Will see what effects this configuration will have in a week
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Jetijs
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Old 02-16-2008, 11:31 AM
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Hi all!
My second test is now over. The gas mileage increased from 12.1 to 12.4 km/l. That is 2.4% fuel economy. So the ceramic magnets work very well. You should not take thee tests too serious, because they are not accurate, because of those many variables that is needed to take in consideration, but still, if you have some suitable ceramic magnets, put them around your cars fuel line like peter showed, this is not expensive and is easily done. I will make some more accurate tests later, also in a month or so, I will have access to a waterjet engine power stand, then I will be able to test the magnet effects and the pulstar spark plugs very accurate and see the ignition curves, power/torque curves and so on
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Old 02-18-2008, 11:31 PM
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Magnet fuel enhancers

They work a little, I messed around with those in the early nineties. If you put it on and drove a tankful you would have to see the color of the inside of your tailpipe. If it was jet black turn the magnet around. When you did that the tailpipe would lighten up. The economy improved gradually. Also I noticed the oil was staying cleaner about 500-750 miles longer versus before.
I used to have a real long commute through open country. One thing I noticed was tire pressure and width of the tire. I went to a narrower tire 195mm vs 225 and picked up like 5 miles per gallon! The factory called for 225...
Another thing that picked up mileage was a thorough clean of the battery terminals and the chassis to engine ground. On fuel injected cars the sensors that control your injector pulse width based on engine temp, outside air temp, manifold pressure or mass airflow, all rely on signals from the 0 to +5vdc region. So if your grounds are a little crusty they cause resistance that can really upset the performance of your car and waste gas.
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Old 02-20-2008, 04:21 PM
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My initial obseravions

Hi,

I have not done a thorough test yet, but these are my initial observations when I put the fuel saver (The commercial one which I posted the magnet arrangement earlier) on my fuel line:

1- The smell of the exhaust pipe went almost away.
2- The engine seemed to run more smoother.
3- The acceleration of it seems to be increased.

These are only crude observations, and are not to be taken seriously. I'll post much scientific experiments at a later time.

Elias
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Old 02-20-2008, 07:32 PM
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My cars gas mileage keeps improving. Now it has reached 12.6 kilometers per liter. That is already 4% fuel economy. Again, these numbers should not be taken too seriously, but if you have these magnets laying around, it would just stupid not to use them on your car. You can't lose anything.
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Old 04-22-2008, 11:34 AM
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What is Fuel Saver Magnetic?

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Originally Posted by Jetijs View Post
My cars gas mileage keeps improving. Now it has reached 12.6 kilometers per liter. That is already 4% fuel economy. Again, these numbers should not be taken too seriously, but if you have these magnets laying around, it would just stupid not to use them on your car. You can't lose anything.
Hi there..i cross this web site.."http://fuel-savermagnetic.blogspot.com
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Old 05-01-2008, 05:00 AM
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Quote:
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Elias,

I started playing around with fuel magnetization in 1983, when I lived in Santa Barbara, California and worked with Bruce DePalma. Bruce developed a whole line of devices based on pouring liquids through ring magnets. We did hundreds of experiments, and one company took his ideas and designs and built a multi-million dollar business in the water softening area. Of course, it didn't work on all water, but they made enough money to do some really good science and they found out which dissolved impurities would respond well to the system. Ultimately, they offered to do a free water analysis for any new, potential customer, to see if their water could benefit from the system. After initiating this procedure, they only had 100% satisfied customers, and they went on to make a fortune. Of course, DePalma was cheated and got nothing!

We also did hundreds of experiments on consumable liquids, mainly fruit juices and alcoholic beverages. The effects were nothing less than astonishing. Re-blending the taste of cheap wine was easy, and quite rewarding! (ooooooh yaaaa) In one test, we started with a inexpensive, watery, fruity wine called Manischewitz, poured it through the system three times, and ended up with a thick, syrupy blend that tasted like a fine liquor. Drinking 4 ounces of the stuff gave us a buzz for the rest of the afternoon! 4 ounces of the product right out of the bottle could not do this. The process, which consisted of pouring it through a stack of PM ring magnets about 12 inches tall, (three times) changed the taste and texture of the liquid, as well as changed the character of the alcoholic high.

The moral of this story is that all kinds of things happen when you magnetize liquids that "are not supposed to happen". We could even make "Hawaiian Punch" taste good!

So, does magnetizing fuel increase mileage? It can, IF it is done right. Just placing a magnet on a fuel line is not enough. What we found is this. The fuel must run PARALLEL to the lines of force for a significant distance and exit the NORTH POLE of the system. There may be other configurations that work, but that one does for sure. The benefit was about 10% better mileage. Since you can't "strap on" a ring of permanent magnets around a fuel line without disconnecting and reconnecting the fuel line itself, we never tried to market anything. The strap on units have a simplicity and an appeal like "what do I have to lose?", but I'm sure some systems work better than others. Also, I don't know what magnetic configuration these units use. Magnetizing straight across the fuel N-to-S showed little to no benefit in our tests.

Also, the formula of gasoline changes from season to season and from region to region, so uniform results should not be expected.

The company you linked to has products to magnetize the fuel, the incoming air, and the cooling system. They claim to increase mileage by an average of about 12%. My guess is that the fuel magnetization is mostly responsible for the gains.

The bottom line is...... try it and see if it works! Its a "science experiment". IF it works, its a fuel saver!

Peter
Hi! Peter.
I found this thread recently. I bought one of those Fuel Miser's a while back; it didn't seem to do much, probably because they didn't say "Don't put in on a metal line!" Thanks for the correct info. I will be replacing that line with braided fuel line as soon as the Nm magnets arrive that I ordered.
I was also wondering if you or anyone has tried magnets on their HHO line going into the intake manifold? Any input on possible effects(good, bad,dangerous) would be appreciated.
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Old 05-01-2008, 07:52 PM
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I just now looked up this thread. The way one could distribute magnetic field more evenly and reduce NdFeB too strong flux is to take a few small toroid ferrite cores (the cheap ones used as EMI filters in switching power supplies, TVs or CRT monitors) and stack them together. Then one could put that core over the fuel line and stack a few NdFeB magnets around circumference of the core (not all circumference has to be covered in magnets). One pole of magnets is always turned longitudinally to the fuel flow and all magnets are polarized in the same way as the others. In this way one can produce rather uniform magnetic field while at the same time reducing too strong flux of NdFeB and reducing the required number of magnets. It would also produce the kind of field Peter originally described.

That's of course the way I would go if I was still into experimenting with this kind of stuff. Peter was right when he said too strong flux will reduce the fuel consumption effect. The same applies when using too powerful magnets to in some other configurations used to restructure various kinds of fuel. The effect of various polarizations, geometries and flux densities is measurable when using calorimeter to measure combustion of various untreated and treated fuels.
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